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121grn warner tool flatline/or 130 berger hybrids ?

scorpio 25

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Minuteman
Jan 9, 2005
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Just wondering which would most of you pick for the 6.5cm to reload for the 121grain warner tool flatline or the berger 130 grain hybrid ? I realize they are two different weights so yo cant compare but if you wanted to experiment which of the two would you try first ? (bolt action) forgot to add out to 1k also
 
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The Flatline is almost $1/bullet. The Berger is, well, much less. I've never used the Flatline and never had the greatest luck getting the 130 Hybrid to shoot but I have shot many of the 130 VLDs thru my 6.5 Creedmoor and that is what I would try.
You can practice (and buy all the latest goodies that will make you shoot better) if your not pay $1/bullet.
 
Depends what you want to do but Speed* BC gives you your answer in what will be straighter in the wind.

I've never seen a 6.5mm anything that could push a 130 Hybrid at the same speed as a 121 Flatline. The current 121 is a more finnicky design meant to optimize BC but it takes more work to keep it tuned up than the original generation of Flatlines like the 198, 151, 256, etc.

Warners have a new 123 6.5mm coming out very shortly to augment the 6.5mm line up. That one was designed to be more forgiving at the loading bench and it still has a doppler radar tested BC that is over 0.63 IIRC and @Dan Warner reported it being very forgiving when he did load workup for the doppler test.

@shoot4fun if you look at the performance and overall cost the $1/bullet is well applied to long stuff, not just shooting and plinking around. Guys tell me all the time "but the 198 costs $1.45/bullet and I can shoot regular bullets from a 300 Win Mag"

Great, you can but even with the hottest jacketed bullet in the world the 300WM can't come up with a better trajectory than my lowly 308 does at a mile when I use the 198. And the overall cost to pull the trigger on a 300WM is higher than the 308 when I shoot flatlines. I don't shoot them all the time, just when I want to shoot 2000yd for less than my 300WM costs to shoot 1000.
 
Depends what you want to do but Speed* BC gives you your answer in what will be straighter in the wind.

I've never seen a 6.5mm anything that could push a 130 Hybrid at the same speed as a 121 Flatline. The current 121 is a more finnicky design meant to optimize BC but it takes more work to keep it tuned up than the original generation of Flatlines like the 198, 151, 256, etc.

Warners have a new 123 6.5mm coming out very shortly to augment the 6.5mm line up. That one was designed to be more forgiving at the loading bench and it still has a doppler radar tested BC that is over 0.63 IIRC and @Dan Warner reported it being very forgiving when he did load workup for the doppler test.

@shoot4fun if you look at the performance and overall cost the $1/bullet is well applied to long stuff, not just shooting and plinking around. Guys tell me all the time "but the 198 costs $1.45/bullet and I can shoot regular bullets from a 300 Win Mag"

Great, you can but even with the hottest jacketed bullet in the world the 300WM can't come up with a better trajectory than my lowly 308 does at a mile when I use the 198. And the overall cost to pull the trigger on a 300WM is higher than the 308 when I shoot flatlines. I don't shoot them all the time, just when I want to shoot 2000yd for less than my 300WM costs to shoot 1000.
I'm trying to read the part of my post that mentioned 300WM.
If the OP had mentioned he was choosing bullets for ELR work my answer would likely be different. I know it would for me because any ELR shooting for me requires much planning, travel and expense. Paying extra for bullets that I had confidence in for ELR would not be an issue for me at all. In fact I do pay extra to shoot "boutique" bullets in some arenas. I know the OP also said nothing about shooting PRS and I did make my comments based on that form of shooting (maybe a mistake on my part).
I also know, based on the last 40 years of shooting, that buying expensive bullets or equipment does not translate into shooting better.
It takes practice.
 
I'm trying to read the part of my post that mentioned 300WM.
If the OP had mentioned he was choosing bullets for ELR work my answer would likely be different. I know it would for me because any ELR shooting for me requires much planning, travel and expense. Paying extra for bullets that I had confidence in for ELR would not be an issue for me at all. In fact I do pay extra to shoot "boutique" bullets in some arenas. I know the OP also said nothing about shooting PRS and I did make my comments based on that form of shooting (maybe a mistake on my part).
I also know, based on the last 40 years of shooting, that buying expensive bullets or equipment does not translate into shooting better.
It takes practice.

Wow, not sure what you took offense to but you clearly missed the content of the post while you were coming up with a snide response.
My intent to you was to inform you about the usefulness of the Flatlines since you have never used them and were already complaining of the cost.


Right at the beginning I said "depends what you want to do..."
IE: The OP didn't tell us what he is intending to do with the rifle but here's a broad answer that will allow him to make a more informed decision both rationally and technically (speed*BC reference).

Using a boutique bullet in a much smaller caliber you can reach out to previously unreasonable distances.
This applies to the 6.5 Creedmoor the OP is talking about just as much as the 308 I used as an example.

The corollary goes further with the 308 and the 300 WM because it is a well known behavior that large magnums are harder to shoot than smaller cases. Same thing with lighter bullets in smaller cases as opposed to large magnums. IE a 120gr class bullet in a Creedmoor is easier to shoot than a 308 with 175 class bullets in it. Similarly a 308 shooting a big bullet is much easier to shoot than a 300WM shooting an even bigger bullet. This is hardly a point to argue, the topic was hashed to death over the last 10 years and it is a well established behavior in competitive shooting that lighter, smaller, faster, high BC bullets are the way to go there.

And the cost that comes from selectively using a boutique bullet in a small cartridge as compared to selectively using a big magnum shooting a big conventional bullet is still lower, it allows the use of the same rifle instead of shouldering the cost of a second rifle AND more expensive ammo.

This lower cost for practicing at those ranges means that people can universally afford to practice more at those ranges. Whether your net worth is 4 figures or 10, less cost to shoot with a high performance round means that practice is more affordable.

Now, based on the information in my post above he now can assess the following things from a technical perspective:

How the ballistic comparison works out for any bullet study, not just the 2 he asked about.
How the Flatline is at the reloading bench.
That there is a new Flatline coming which is more forgiving to load albeit at the expense of some BC
He also has the ability to weigh WHEN he wants to shoot a Flatline as opposed to simply saying they're better so he needs to shoot them all the time...

And, there's an example of performance to show that the boutique bullet may in fact give a result that is so superior to the conventional approach that increased performance is actually gleaned to the shooter even though "practice practice practice" is normally the road to better results.


A full and complete answer is often a lot of information but still maintains to be the most helpful.
 
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Wow, not sure what you took offense to but you clearly missed the content of the post while you were coming up with a snide response.
My intent to you was to inform you about the usefulness of the Flatlines since you have never used them and were already complaining of the cost.


Right at the beginning I said "depends what you want to do..."
IE: The OP didn't tell us what he is intending to do with the rifle but here's a broad answer that will allow him to make a more informed decision both rationally and technically (speed*BC reference).

Using a boutique bullet in a much smaller caliber you can reach out to previously unreasonable distances.
This applies to the 6.5 Creedmoor the OP is talking about just as much as the 308 I used as an example.

The corollary goes further with the 308 and the 300 WM because it is a well known behavior that large magnums are harder to shoot than smaller cases. Same thing with lighter bullets in smaller cases as opposed to large magnums. IE a 120gr class bullet in a Creedmoor is easier to shoot than a 308 with 175 class bullets in it. Similarly a 308 shooting a big bullet is much easier to shoot than a 300WM shooting an even bigger bullet. This is hardly a point to argue, the topic was hashed to death over the last 10 years and it is a well established behavior in competitive shooting that lighter, smaller, faster, high BC bullets are the way to go there.

And the cost that comes from selectively using a boutique bullet in a small cartridge as compared to selectively using a big magnum shooting a big conventional bullet is still lower, it allows the use of the same rifle instead of shouldering the cost of a second rifle AND more expensive ammo.

This lower cost for practicing at those ranges means that people can universally afford to practice more at those ranges. Whether your net worth is 4 figures or 10, less cost to shoot with a high performance round means that practice is more affordable.

Now, based on the information in my post above he now can assess the following things from a technical perspective:

How the ballistic comparison works out for any bullet study, not just the 2 he asked about.
How the Flatline is at the reloading bench.
That there is a new Flatline coming which is more forgiving to load albeit at the expense of some BC
He also has the ability to weigh WHEN he wants to shoot a Flatline as opposed to simply saying they're better so he needs to shoot them all the time...

And, there's an example of performance to show that the boutique bullet may in fact give a result that is so superior to the conventional approach that increased performance is actually gleaned to the shooter even though "practice practice practice" is normally the road to better results.


A full and complete answer is often a lot of information but still maintains to be the most helpful.
Sorry @bohem, as I didn't know I was actually going to hurt your feelings.
You're so correct and I am so incorrect. We should all start shooting Flatlines.
Feel better now?
 
Sorry @bohem, as I didn't know I was actually going to hurt your feelings.
You're so correct and I am so incorrect. We should all start shooting Flatlines.
Feel better now?
LOL yeah, that's better...

My apologies about jumping down your throat, it was out of line.
We clearly have different opinions on what is a worthwhile expenditure.
 
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so I was talking with warner tool and they said its a good idea to get the inside of your barrel measured for the 121 grain bullet being that its a solid. never new that.i am sure some of you can explain this better.
 
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... The current 121 is a more finnicky design meant to optimize BC but it takes more work to keep it tuned up than the original generation of Flatlines like the 198, 151, 256, etc.

Warners have a new 123 6.5mm coming out very shortly to augment the 6.5mm line up. That one was designed to be more forgiving at the loading bench and it still has a doppler radar tested BC that is over 0.63 IIRC and @Dan Warner reported it being very forgiving when he did load workup for the doppler test...
I look forward to the new 123g Flatline. I realize that the solids will act differently than conventional clad, but with a more forgiving profile, it would be interesting to see my .260 push a solid way out there while supersonic. Worth it for the few times that I get access to over 1200.

I am a big fan of the 255.5g .338 and was hoping that you guys would revisit the 6.5.
 
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If I was going to get serious with the Warner’s, I would probably write a check for 2000 of them and stick with them for the life of the barrel. When you put it in perspective, its about the same cost as a good piece of glass, then it makes it easier for me to fathom.
With all that said, I love the 130 hybrid with 42.0 grains of 4451. It’s by far my favorite.
 
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so I was talking with warner tool and they said its a good idea to get the inside of your barrel measured for the 121 grain bullet being that its a solid. never new that.i am sure some of you can explain this better.

The point here is gas leak. It is fact that a jacketed bullet expands to fit the groove of a barrel on initial start pressure. It is this fact that gives barrel manufacturers leeway in the tolerance of barrel groove diameters. Lets use the 6.5mm (.264) for example. The nominal groove diameter is 0.2640 in this case. If you were to measure any given quality high end barrel on any given day, you will see numbers ranging from +0.0001 to +0.0006. And in lesser quality factory barrels, these numbers are even higher and not necessarily consistent from breech to muzzle. Remember that jacketed bullets function in just about all of these degrading factors.
Enter the solid bullet. It does NOT expand to fit the groove on initial start pressure. If is is smaller than the groove diameter mentioned above, then you run the risk for gas leakage. This obviously ruins accuracy; we don't need to go into its effects here, I think we all know that it is detrimental to the whole system. But this is why we stress the importance of fit and the fact that we need to be that much more aware of these numbers when shooting solids.
We are happy to take a muzzle slug (cut off your barrel at the time of install) and measure the groove diameter for you. A few of the high end barrel manufacturers are now offering groove diameter measurement out to the 4th place (0.000x) just for this reason. Once we have that x number, we can then alter bullet size at manufacture to fit your specific groove diameter.
This does come with a disclaimer, however. Any bullet larger than nominal is intended only for the barrel measured. For obvious reasons, putting a larger bullet in a different bore that may be tighter can have detrimental pressure problem.
 
@Dan Warner that is some really great information but leads me to a couple of questions (maybe dumb ones) about barrels/Flatlines.
First, some barrel makers offer what are considered tight-bore blanks; IE Brux offers .236 6MM blanks and so does Kreiger. What are your findings on accuracy, velocity and pressure using the Flatlines in these type barrels?
Also, do you find accelerated wear in barrels using Flatlines?
 
The point here is gas leak. It is fact that a jacketed bullet expands to fit the groove of a barrel on initial start pressure. It is this fact that gives barrel manufacturers leeway in the tolerance of barrel groove diameters. Lets use the 6.5mm (.264) for example. The nominal groove diameter is 0.2640 in this case. If you were to measure any given quality high end barrel on any given day, you will see numbers ranging from +0.0001 to +0.0006. And in lesser quality factory barrels, these numbers are even higher and not necessarily consistent from breech to muzzle. Remember that jacketed bullets function in just about all of these degrading factors.
Enter the solid bullet. It does NOT expand to fit the groove on initial start pressure. If is is smaller than the groove diameter mentioned above, then you run the risk for gas leakage. This obviously ruins accuracy; we don't need to go into its effects here, I think we all know that it is detrimental to the whole system. But this is why we stress the importance of fit and the fact that we need to be that much more aware of these numbers when shooting solids.
We are happy to take a muzzle slug (cut off your barrel at the time of install) and measure the groove diameter for you. A few of the high end barrel manufacturers are now offering groove diameter measurement out to the 4th place (0.000x) just for this reason. Once we have that x number, we can then alter bullet size at manufacture to fit your specific groove diameter.
This does come with a disclaimer, however. Any bullet larger than nominal is intended only for the barrel measured. For obvious reasons, putting a larger bullet in a different bore that may be tighter can have detrimental pressure problem.
A lot of good info until I started looking into these I never new the above about taking barrel measurements THANKS
 
@Dan Warner that is some really great information but leads me to a couple of questions (maybe dumb ones) about barrels/Flatlines.
First, some barrel makers offer what are considered tight-bore blanks; IE Brux offers .236 6MM blanks and so does Kreiger. What are your findings on accuracy, velocity and pressure using the Flatlines in these type barrels?
Also, do you find accelerated wear in barrels using Flatlines?

We're talking groove diameter, not bore. The bore diameter on your 6mm barrel should be 0.243. But since you asked, you may get slightly higher pressure with the .236 vs the .237 bore diameter. I would favor the .237 myself. Otherwise, the groove diameter(s) are not altered in what is considered a 'tight bore', thus it becomes somewhat of a mis-nomer. You should not see accelerated wear when using Flatlines. Shorter bearing surface, ideal material, and lower coefficient of friction actually offset the higher speeds these are run at. I won't go so far as to say you'd have less/slower barrel wear, but its certainly no worse than if your were shooting jacketed pills.
 
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So, if there is a gas leak issue...how can anyone use these bullets unless in a specially cut barrel??
I call this a fair question, based on Dan Warner’s earlier post.

I will say though, that I believe it all has to be considered in perspective. By that, I mean that I take Dan’s comments above to be relative to optimal performance for a given projectile, be it a conventional jacketed bullet or a solid turned bullet. Or to put it simpler, it matters, but it doesn’t mean failure if everything is not perfect.

Why do I believe this? Because both I and a friend shoot flatlines in our bonestock Savage .338 LM 110 LRP Rifles with pretty darn good success. When I first talked to Dan, he cautioned the these barrels were not great for the solids. And true enough, the short throats and factory rifling on them probably do limit our success somewhat. But they still outperform the jacketed bullets at ELR distances by a very good margin.

Point being that perfectionists often define things in absolutes, while much of the rest of us operate in a place somewhat outside of absolute.
 
Well said lash. Short throats are actually a benefit to solids. But the issues, when there are any, usually are the rifling as you stated. We used to have a saying with factory-out of the box Remington rifles... you might get lucky and you might not with respect to their performance. Same holds true with cheap production barrels we are talking about here with respect to solids.
And it's nothing to hold against them. First, they have to be sure to err on the side of caution/safety. That means that any barrel, custom or not, has to have a groove diameter on the plus side of the tolerance. Custom barrel mfg's simply hold them tighter than production bbl mfg's due to the nature of their respective processes. Thus, the potential for a much broader and wider groove diameter spectrum exists when talking production barrels. That said, it should be much easier to see why there is a higher potential for gas leak with solids in these barrels.
To stress it again, we are always willing to make bullets to fit your specific barrel. This comes with two stipulations. The first us that we have a way to accurately measure the groove diameter of your barrel. It can either be air gauged, or we need the slug cut from your muzzle when it was installed for measurement on our CMM. (We understand that these are not always feasible). The second comes with the customer's understanding that any bullets specially turned for a specific barrel are intended for that barrel and that barrel only.