Rifle Scopes New High End Tactical article

[koshkin]

That's interesting what you say about mirage DT. I've always thought that comes down to overall IQ and a scopes ability to resolve detail and micro contrast, so I wonder if the TT still has an "edge" over the ZCO in this regard. ILya, this might be a great topic for a video to talk about a scopes ability to "cut through" mirage, if that is even possible. I realize it could just be our eyes or our brains interpretation of what our eye is seeing.

Also, with regard to the price difference I thought the ZCO sells for $3600 and the TT sells for $4663, that is $1000 difference right or are you talking about street price and the fact that a TT can be had at less than full retail while the ZCO cannot?

Personally, I'd have a harder time with the ZC527 because of the competition from TT, Schmidt and Minox ZP5 as these scopes are peers and pretty much the same magnification, but the ZC420 really stands out above the crowd and like ILya mentioned, I'm trying to figure out a reason to pick one up. I do wish the MPCT reticles had dots in the Christmas tree like the MR4 as I am not a fan of bold tree reticles, heck I even feel the SKMR3 is bold and its thinner than the MPCT2, but for the main horizontal and vertical stadia I prefer the thicker lines of the MPCT series over SKMR. For this reason I might lean toward the MPCT1 reticle in the ZC420; however, if they had dots in the tree like the MR4 I'd definitely pick that up, maybe a future MPCT3 reticle will have dots in the Christmas tree as I'd much prefer that over the MPCT2.

Seeing through mirage is kind of a tricky topic.

I have some empirical experience with that since I find the subject interesting and I have been looking into it, but I have comparatively little fundamental knowledge on the subject.

When @covertnoob and I were looking at a bunch of 56 mm scopes for this test a while back, one thing that jumped out to both of us was that at 100 yards the differences between the better scopes were minor, but beyond 600, TT edged ahead of everyone else.

One thing that definitely makes a difference is depth of field. That is a simple experiment: set up and optic and look at a target on a hot day. Then put in an aperture reducer which increases depth of field. You will see through the mirage better if the aperture reducer is in place.

Other differences that seem to be apparent likely pertain to how we perceive images. Optics that offer a lot of subtle tonal detail (TT, Leica, etc) do well with mirage. I suspect that it just makes it easier for our eyes to process the image. Mirage washes out a lot of the color and our brain needs those details to comprehend what the eye is looking at.

At closer distances, I think ZCO outresolved TT slightly, but at longer distances, TT's color rendering and microcontrast gave it an edge.

ILya

 

[Dthomas3523]

That's interesting what you say about mirage DT. I've always thought that comes down to overall IQ and a scopes ability to resolve detail and micro contrast, so I wonder if the TT still has an "edge" over the ZCO in this regard. ILya, this might be a great topic for a video to talk about a scopes ability to "cut through" mirage, if that is even possible. I realize it could just be our eyes or our brains interpretation of what our eye is seeing.

Also, with regard to the price difference I thought the ZCO sells for $3600 and the TT sells for $4663, that is $1000 difference right or are you talking about street price and the fact that a TT can be had at less than full retail while the ZCO cannot?

Personally, I'd have a harder time with the ZC527 because of the competition from TT, Schmidt and Minox ZP5 as these scopes are peers and pretty much the same magnification, but the ZC420 really stands out above the crowd and like ILya mentioned, I'm trying to figure out a reason to pick one up. I do wish the MPCT reticles had dots in the Christmas tree like the MR4 as I am not a fan of bold tree reticles, heck I even feel the SKMR3 is bold and its thinner than the MPCT2, but for the main horizontal and vertical stadia I prefer the thicker lines of the MPCT series over SKMR. For this reason I might lean toward the MPCT1 reticle in the ZC420; however, if they had dots in the tree like the MR4 I'd definitely pick that up, maybe a future MPCT3 reticle will have dots in the Christmas tree as I'd much prefer that over the MPCT2.

Ya, I anytime I talk prices, I’m talking about what it can be actually had for. Comparing prices at retail is ridiculous. Had that argument before when people kept saying AMG is a $2500 optic when it was $2100 at the most and could be found around $1900.

I also don’t put minox and kahles as “peers” of the zco. The minox lacks many of the features of the zco (and minox has just devalued them immensely with 50% codes) and the kahles doesn’t hold up optically.

Sure the minox glass is good, but the zco has a laundry list of features the minox doesn’t have.

 

[summutaja]

I just got a brand new M7XI from Germany and so far all is good exept CA. In my scope it’s very very bad.
Picture taken on max zoom x28.
I sent it back to Steiner Germany, lets see what they will do...

 

[Glassaholic]

I just got a brand new M7XI from Germany and so far all is good exept CA. In my scope it’s very very bad.
Picture taken on max zoom x28.
I sent it back to Steiner Germany, lets see what they will do...

I've seen some bad CA in my day, but if that is how it looks through the scope with the naked eye, that is probably the worst I have seen, yikes, let us know how the new one looks when you get it back.

 

[summutaja]

I've seen some bad CA in my day, but if that is how it looks through the scope with the naked eye, that is probably the worst I have seen, yikes, let us know how the new one looks when you get it back.

I will keep yo all in da loop. Lets see how it goes and how good Steiner really is. As I have owned pst gen II and PM II and havn’t seen such ugly CA.

 

[Rancid Coolaid]

That looks like a Kahles gen1 K624i, but with better resolution.

And whomever mentioned finding a TT for less than half retail (apple:apples does not equal applesranges), could you point me in that general direction?

 

[JB.IC]

Holy shit that CA is bad! $500 scopes look better than that!! WTF

 

[blbennett1288]

Wouldn't be a Steiner without CA

 

[Bandit31]

I just got a brand new M7XI from Germany and so far all is good exept CA. In my scope it’s very very bad.
Picture taken on max zoom x28.
I sent it back to Steiner Germany, lets see what they will do...

I had to send a new M7xi back as well but to Steiner in the states. I’d be curious to hear how you make out with Steiner Germany.

 

[Birddog6424]

I just got a brand new M7XI from Germany and so far all is good exept CA. In my scope it’s very very bad.
Picture taken on max zoom x28.
I sent it back to Steiner Germany, lets see what they will do...

I recently saw a Tangent Theta that looked like that.

He sold it a week or so ago to another guy I know on the premise that the guy knew it was going to have to go back to TT. He just dumped it on a cut rate because he didnt want to screw around with it.

Edit: What a shame to have to make a post like this. In response to a recent PM, yes, I shoot for Burris. No, that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to share my opinion or experiences like everyone else.

Nick Arnold at Straight Jacket Armory in Evanston Wyoming owned the TT. He sold it to another friend of mine. I can pull in other witnesses if any other folks have a hard time believing that the people at Tangent Theta sometimes suffer from the same human fallibility as the rest of us. But if we are all good with that realization? We can move on.

We can now return to the regularly scheduled program.

 

[psychosniper]

I just got a brand new M7XI from Germany and so far all is good exept CA. In my scope it’s very very bad.
Picture taken on max zoom x28.
I sent it back to Steiner Germany, lets see what they will do...

That is absolutely terrible. I would’ve done the same. Neither of the three M7Xi’s that I have look anything like that and when I do see any CA it’s only above 22x and when my eye is off axis, mainly from bright objects. As long as I’m centered, there is very little to no CA throughout the entire elevation adjustment range. It’s there but I have to induce it to notice it.

I will add that the third M7Xi I picked up has either focus issues or something else may be going on because the overall IQ above 16x is not as impressive as the first pair I bought. It has roughly the same amount of CA as the first pair but the image becomes slightly hazy/out of focus above 16x and certainly does not resolve quite as well. Parallax is easily removed at any distance I’ve checked so far but the target cannot be brought into as clear of focus regardless of diopter/parallax position until I back the power down to 16x or below.

There is a decent deviance between this scope and the first pair regarding where the parallax dial is indexed in relation to the actual distance at which parallax is removed. The problem might only be the calibration of the parallax in this particular scope because everything else is spot on but it has me curious if maybe it’s either a sample variation or if something is actually slightly off with this one. From 4x-16x it does extremely well and is still definitely better than my M5Xi above 16x so I’m not too inclined to contact Steiner over it yet.

I’d say something definitely went wrong in more than just the QC department with that scope of yours. Truly disheartening. I sure hope they see it as a problem and get you fixed up with one that doesn’t make sharp edges look like a neon sign. Anxious to see how Steiner Germany handles it as I would rather have them go through the optic than Steiner USA.

 

[plong]

My two are fine, at least to my eyes. That being said, when I looked at the first pic. I thought "wow, that really sucks..." after studying it further I also thought: " while that might suck, when I look at POA and evaluate the resolution (which appears to be as excellent as my two examples) is there really anything going on here that would cause me to miss a shot....?

 

[Kickin45]

Distraction

 

[Glassaholic]

"Ooooh, that's a pretty shade of purple... crap, I missed the shot" Seriously, while on the surface CA should not cause you to miss a shot, but depending on your target and your background it will rob the image especially with micro-contrast. In the image above it's hard to distinguish the actual edges because CA is causing distortion at the edge, while CA is most apparent at the edges it still exists elsewhere and can cause a softness to the overall image in say a scene with a lot of rocks or vegetation. Also, it can play an even bigger factor in low light scenarios. So while it may not cause you to miss a shot, it does have an overall effect on the quality of the image you see. I can accept a level of CA in a $1500 scope, but above $2k I have much higher expectations and one of those is that the mfr eliminates CA and other aberrations much better. That being said, this scope certainly seems to be waaaay outside the norm so it will be interesting to see what Steiner does, my guess is they may replace the entire scope and the new scope that summataja receives I expect to do much better.

 

[notorious]

That is horrific. Good lord.

 

[kingston]

The March 5-42x56 I am looking at is a prototype, so there is not going to be a full review or a whole lot of details until I get a chance to look at a production model.

Overall, I think this scope is designed to compete with the best out there and since I have a Mark 5HD on hand, I am pretty sure the new March is a better scope, as it should be given that it is likely going to be more expensive.

This March is an entirely new design, which includes a new wider angle eyepiece. I think this is March's first use of this eyepiece and I like what I am seeing so far.

ILya

If it’s anything like the sample I saw at SHOT 19, it’ll make March a household name.

 

[Glassaholic]

That is horrific. Good lord.

Keep in mind that when taking images through a scope you are compounding CA with your camera's lens as well, and if that lens doesn't control CA it's going to look worse than with the naked eye. That being said, for a through the scope image, that is some of the worst I've seen. I am sure Steiner will take care of the poster, they are a good company and have been pretty responsive to fixing issues through their warranty.

 

[koshkin]

If it’s anything like the sample I saw at SHOT 19, it’ll make March a household name.

I think this is an improvement over what they had at SHOT, but I could be wrong. They have a couple of prototypes floating around and I think the one I am looking at is the newer version.

So far, I find it extremely promising.

ILya

 

[Glassaholic]

If it’s anything like the sample I saw at SHOT 19, it’ll make March a household name.

I have heard the High Master glass is a 3 layer objective sandwhich with a proprietary lens in between two super ED elements. What all that mumbo jumbo means is that the glass is suppose to be superb in color, contrast, resolution and control of CA. I am anxious to see how well it compares to some of the best glass out like my ZP5 and ZCO (Edit - not my ZCO as I don't own one yet, but a friend does).

 

[Covertnoob5]

(Edit - not my ZCO as I don't own one yet, but a friend does).

It’s just a matter of time and you know it! Lol

 

[notorious]

Keep in mind that when taking images through a scope you are compounding CA with your camera's lens as well, and if that lens doesn't control CA it's going to look worse than with the naked eye. That being said, for a through the scope image, that is some of the worst I've seen. I am sure Steiner will take care of the poster, they are a good company and have been pretty responsive to fixing issues through their warranty.

No doubt. I own 4 Steiner scopes, 2 of them Military. The photos surprised me.

 

[koshkin]

My life is settling down again, so I am back to testing scopes.

 

[Kickin45]

Oh boy. ?

 

[koshkin]

I have heard the High Master glass is a 3 layer objective sandwhich with a proprietary lens in between two super ED elements. What all that mumbo jumbo means is that the glass is suppose to be superb in color, contrast, resolution and control of CA. I am anxious to see how well it compares to some of the best glass out like my ZP5 and ZCO (Edit - not my ZCO as I don't own one yet, but a friend does).

5-42x56 March has exceptional CA control and overall contrast is a step forward. Resolution had always been good on March scopes and this one is no exception.

ILya

 

[kingston]

ILya, there were lots of interesting optics announced this year and it looks like many of them made their way to you! When can we expect a to read the results?

 

[koshkin]

ILya, there were lots of interesting optics announced this year and it looks like many of them made their way to you! When can we expect a to read the results?

I'll be releasing information as I go along, initially in a series of YouTube/Gunstreamer videos and then in a more structured written form. If you have specific questions, ask any time or as the videos come out.

ILya

 

[beetroot]

Thi

My life is settling down again, so I am back to testing scopes.

This will be an interesting test, lots of competition in this market segment now. Hopefully can get a XTR3 in there too.

Will you be comparing these to a known quantity? Say a Vortex PST 3-15 or Razor 3-18?

 

[koshkin]

How do you like the new 2.5-20 nx8 compared to the 4-16 atacr?

I will take the 4-16x ATACR over the NX8 any day. I tested the 4-16x42 and really liked it. The NX8 is not my cup of tea.

ILya

 

[gr8fuldoug]

My life is settling down again, so I am back to testing scopes.

Your life is settling down????????????????????

 

[koshkin]

Your life is settling down????????????????????

In a manner of speaking, yes.

ILya

 

[YF12A]

As my credit cards start heating up! But, you only live once and I haven't worn my trigger finger out yet. Thank you ILya for the time you take to do what just about anyone else here can't, Fred.

 

[koshkin]

Thi
This will be an interesting test, lots of competition in this market segment now. Hopefully can get a XTR3 in there too.

Will you be comparing these to a known quantity? Say a Vortex PST 3-15 or Razor 3-18?

I have a PST 3-15x44, so I will definitely see how it stacks up to the MPO.

ILya

 

[Rerun7]

Is the AMG going to get thrown into the mix?

 

[Glassaholic]

Wish list for SHOT 2020:

• Schmidt PM III with illumination off the parallax and new Christmas Tree reticle (MR4, Gen 3 XR style)
• March 5-42 Highmaster (I know it was at SHOT 2019 but that reticle was not my cup of tea), glass is supposed to be amazing.
• ZCO MPCT3 reticle (basically the MPCT2 but with dots instead of solid lines in the Christmas Tree)
• Minox ZP5 4-20x58 (GSO designed the ZP5 and they designed the Blaser 4-20x58, and Blaser and Minox seem to be connected so hoping the design will carry over into the ZP5 line with the Minox turrets and MR4 reticle)
• Vortex AMG with 5x magnfication range, ideally a 4-20x50 under 30oz
• Vortex HD or UHD with 5000 LRF unit (the Fury is a great start but give us better glass to compete with the big 3) oh and bluetooth to connect with Kestrel et al
• A true Nightforce Ultra Short, not the NX8 with uber erector, but keep it to 5 or 6x with ATACR glass, a 4-20 or 3.5-21x50 would be really nice

 

[Franko]

Wish list for SHOT 2020:

• Schmidt PM III with illumination off the parallax and new Christmas Tree reticle (MR4, Gen 3 XR style)
• March 5-42 Highmaster (I know it was at SHOT 2019 but that reticle was not my cup of tea), glass is supposed to be amazing.
• ZCO MPCT3 reticle (basically the MPCT2 but with dots instead of solid lines in the Christmas Tree)
• Minox ZP5 4-20x58 (GSO designed the ZP5 and they designed the Blaser 4-20x58, and Blaser and Minox seem to be connected so hoping the design will carry over into the ZP5 line with the Minox turrets and MR4 reticle)
• Vortex AMG with 5x magnfication range, ideally a 4-20x50 under 30oz
• Vortex HD or UHD with 5000 LRF unit (the Fury is a great start but give us better glass to compete with the big 3) oh and bluetooth to connect with Kestrel et al
• A true Nightforce Ultra Short, not the NX8 with uber erector, but keep it to 5 or 6x with ATACR glass, a 4-20 or 3.5-21x50 would be really nice

If even a few of those wants became real a lot of wallets around here would be in serious danger...

 

[koshkin]

Wish list for SHOT 2020:

• Schmidt PM III with illumination off the parallax and new Christmas Tree reticle (MR4, Gen 3 XR style)
• March 5-42 Highmaster (I know it was at SHOT 2019 but that reticle was not my cup of tea), glass is supposed to be amazing.
• ZCO MPCT3 reticle (basically the MPCT2 but with dots instead of solid lines in the Christmas Tree)
• Minox ZP5 4-20x58 (GSO designed the ZP5 and they designed the Blaser 4-20x58, and Blaser and Minox seem to be connected so hoping the design will carry over into the ZP5 line with the Minox turrets and MR4 reticle)
• Vortex AMG with 5x magnfication range, ideally a 4-20x50 under 30oz
• Vortex HD or UHD with 5000 LRF unit (the Fury is a great start but give us better glass to compete with the big 3) oh and bluetooth to connect with Kestrel et al
• A true Nightforce Ultra Short, not the NX8 with uber erector, but keep it to 5 or 6x with ATACR glass, a 4-20 or 3.5-21x50 would be really nice

I am not at all convinced we will see a tactical/precision oriented version of the Blaser 4-20x58, but I would certainly like to. Same for their 2.8-20x50. If you look at these two scopes, you will notice how much shorter the erector portion of the tube is in the 4-20x58 and how much longer the objective system is. That allowed Blaser to extract really impressive image quality out of a fairy short overall design.

ILya

 

[koshkin]

Is the AMG going to get thrown into the mix?

I have the AMG and I compared it extensively to ZCO 4-20x50 and TT315M, along others.

ILya

 

[Birddog6424]

I was just trying to figure out how to help you get your hands on an XTR3 and get it in the mix. But looking at the calendar, between the club Championship this month, NRL 22, Vibbert's PRS match, the PRS National Championship, and the PRS Regional Championship, I'll be shooting a match 5 weekends out of the next 7.

We gotta find someone to give up their new scope for a week. I want to see how it looks next to those others!

Looking for volunteers to buy a new Burris and send it to Ilya..

 

[koshkin]

I was just trying to figure out how to help you get your hands on an XTR3 and get in the mix. But looking at the calendar, between the club Championship this month, NRL 22, Vibbert's PRS match, the PRS National Championship, and the PRS Regional Championship, I'll be shooting a match 5 weekends out of the next 7.

We gotta find someone to give up their new scope for a week. I want to see how it looks next to those others!

We'll see how it goes.

Given the limited supply, I am not pushing for it. Burris has orders to fill.

I am tracking how it does in the field to see if there are any complaints. I want to see the illuminated version anyway, so I might wait.

ILya

 

[Birddog6424]

If nothing happens anywhere here in the near future, I'll reach out to you in early December after the dust settles and make some arrangements to send you mine.

It's not illuminated, but at least you can give some feedback on the rest of it.

 

[lennyo3034]

Any reason you’re testing the SFP 2.5-25x42 instead of the FFP 3-24x42?

 

[koshkin]

Any reason you’re testing the SFP 2.5-25x42 instead of the FFP 3-24x42?

I all not testing it. I am testing 3-24x52. The 2.5-25x42 happened to be in hand, so I used for size comparison.

ILya

 

[CBDR]

Is the AMG going to get thrown into the mix?

Love my AMG

 

[clubsportmark]

ILya,

Thanks for your video. If the S&B ultra short’s were thrown into the mix where would they sit in that line up?

 

[lennyo3034]

Thank you for the video. I was actually planning on selling the March for the NX8 when the Mil-xt came out. Then I got behind one and wasn’t impressed. I thought it may have just been that scope so I didn’t write it off completely. But your impressions match mine so I don’t think it was just an anomaly with the one I looked behind.

The Vudu looks very interesting though.

 

[Kickin45]

The Vudu is a VERY underrated scope. I have 3 and use on multiple style rifles. I with Eotech would make an exact duplicate in 2.5-20 or 3-21, then I’d be in heaven.

 

[lennyo3034]

Talked a friend into the vudu. I’m going to compare it to my Steiner T5xi 5-25. Same mag range, same price range, so we will see what we lose by making the scope so short.

 

[SageRatSafaris]

I just watched Koshkin's High End Tactical video, good stuff!

Here's the YouTube link for folks late to the thread.

 

[robeast2000]

For those who are Mil/LE DSG Arm's has a killer deal on the M7Xi's in both black and Coyote (but the best deal is on the Coyote)

Page Not Found On DSG Arms | DSG ARMS

The page you requested on DSG Arms was not found and may have been removed from our site listing.

dsgarms.com

Military, Government, and First Responder Agency Program | DSG ARMS

DSG ARMS has 25 years of experience servicing first responders, the military, and government agencies.

dsgarms.com

I usually only promote Hide dealers, but I have yet to see one who can match DSG's pricing, just wanting to share for those who might be interested in this scope. One final thought, most Hide dealers will "price match" if you can show what another dealer is offering so it doesn't hurt to contact them and see...

For those who are not Mil/LE please do not contact me asking how much; however, I do encourage you to contact a Hide Dealer and ask them what's the best they can do for you, I've found more often than not that the Hide Dealers can match and sometimes beat Mil/LE pricing so it's worth asking.

Got mine for $2399 at DSG. Went with the black, I didn’t like the yellowish tone of the Coyote.

 

[Glassaholic]

Got mine for $2399 at DSG. Went with the black, I didn’t like the yellowish tone of the Coyote.

That was the best price I saw anywhere and was so tempted to grab that scope, but alas the reviews of heavy CA and finicky DOF kept me hesitant...