Rifle Scopes Let’s talk above/north of the crosshairs and spotting trace

[Dthomas3523]

So, we always talk about the tree. How cluttered or uncluttered a tree is, how often you use it, etc etc.

I’d like to start a conversation on above the main crosshairs as we don’t discuss that much. I’ve been having discussions with quite a few people lately and the opinions are various as well as interesting.

So, what do you all prefer above the main reticle?

Some thoughts for topics and opinions:

Do you prefer the vertical stop at say 2-5 mils and then wide open after? If so, why?

Do you prefer the vertical continue all the way up through the FOV? If so, why?

Do you feel it’s easier to see trace without the vertical going up? Or is it easier for you to pick a spot on the vertical to look for trace?

If you hold under, what’s the most you hold under? 2 mil, 4 mil, 7 mil? Etc etc

Here’s a few examples of popular reticles with the area I’d like to discuss highlighted.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Nice topic!!
So let me preface the below with I do not shoot PRS matches so what I am getting ready to type may or may not be suitable for that utilization.

It would be nice to see a 2 mil pattern then wide open space.
A. That would allow for fast hold unders when needed.
B. That would allow for a less cluttered "mil'ing" utilization since you could use the hashes without as much clutter. (Yes LRF remove this for the most part but that is a skill that should never go away to electronics completely)
C. That would allow to use the wide open space portion as more of a spotting scope. With todays' rifle scope quality and magnification range that could be a marketing segment within itself...being able to reduce amount of gear you and your shooting partners need to pack.
D. For me it is easier to see trace without having to find it in the hash-mess.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[RTH1800]

I prefer 2 Mils up marked in 1/2 mils, vertical only. If I am high it gives me a reference for quick adjustment.

 

[jakelly]

Disclaimer: I am a hunter and recreational shooter, not a competition shooter.

That said, I myself, want very little. Enough to hold under on a 75yd shot with 200yd dope is sufficient, two mils is plenty for me. I've discussed this with some shooting/hunting friends while arguing against the 250yd zero, which some advocate as a sort of work around for MPBR. Others say it helps align the eye, it may, but I bet that claim is folklore. My personal concern would be, if it were omitted, that I would have a harder time ensuring level on further shots. I use the squeeze bag to move the POA up and down a little to help ensure NPA and I use the vertical portion of the reticle to verify plumb. Seems like the longer line would help, but I've never tested side by side.

I can understand shooters of purpose built ELR rigs wanting more up there, due to cant and a 1000yd zero, and I could see the utility for comps where seconds matter, but the reality, if you're asking me (and you did ) there is both an underdevelopment and overdevelopment up there. Over for 95% of the applications, and under for 5%. This is both a legacy artifact (from when scopes had wires!) and an under utilized tool.

I think though that this is part of a broader topic concerning the psychology of the shooting industry, which I find very interesting. I would like to see movement toward less do-it-all products and more purpose built concepts. I think this will happen as the median shooter matures in his understanding.

 

[jakelly]

I prefer 2 Mils up marked in 1/2 mils, vertical only. If I am high it gives me a reference for quick adjustment.

You do you, but you shouldn't be shooting when you're high.

 

[samb300]

I'm split, I'd be good with two different ways.

1) 4 to 5 mils of vertical stadia above the horizon line (i.e. NF Mil-C/XT), then open space above (no grid). This provides enough usable line to allow a few things:
a) Perform hold-unders for typical PRS stages (a stage like a 700 yd to 1200 yd "no dial")
b) Measure something like a spinner for reference, where a typical target-to-crossbar distance is 2.2 to 2.5 mils
c) Have enough height to "measure" trace, i.e. your dope is 3.6 mils so you know your bullet arc will be going from 0 to 3.6 then back down to 0

2) Vertical all the way to the top. It's classic, my eye is very used to it after looking at the EBR2C for so long, and I would be hard-pressed to find a real-world example where a 0.03 mil wide vertical stadia interfered with target detection or seeing trace.

I am firmly against a vertical stadia of only 2 mils. It gives up too much functionality for me, and I can't see an argument for why it would benefit from being so short. A typical match stage is a 300yd target and a 600yd target, 1 round fired at each, then move to a different position. I prefer to dial dope for the 600 yard target and hold UNDER for the 300yd target. So I would dial 3.5 mils on the scope, and hold under 2.5 mils for the close target...this gives more precision to aiming at the far target, allowing the use of the horizonal wind holds versus having to hold OVER and be somewhere in the tree. With only having a 2 mil vertical stadia, I couldn't even shoot this stage the way that works best for me.

Sam

 

[Hoyt7mm]

For PRS type shooting, I like a limited reticle above center. The MPCT 3 is nice since I can go out to 3 mils.
I don't think a full vertical bar interferes with my ability to see trace/impacts but I do enjoy having my reticle less cluttered with only a partial vertical above center.
My ideal reticle would be an MPCT 3 lower tree, with 4 mils above center. No funnel, but instead put the MR4 ranging grid in the right or left upper corner of the reticle. The grid is fine enough to disappear when not looking at it, and very precise when trying to mil targets.

 

[Kickin45]

I prefer nothing above the horizontal crosshairs.
I use my scopes quite a bit as a spotting scope as well, so open and unobstructed at the top is what really draws me to a scope reticle right now.

This has a bit too much going on in the lower portion of the scope, but gives a good clean unadulterated view from the 9 to 3 o’clock

 

[ubettcha]

Although I started on the mildot and use to sight in at 5-600 and hold up or down. Now I prefer to have 3 mils over and then clear. I only shoot 1 or 2 prs matches a year if that. I do sit a lot of lakes and bigger farms for song dogs. Most of the time I will set my elevation for most probable and I have dope cards for under shots as well as overs. I've been hunting the same areas and have range cards for just about all of them and it works for me.

 

[Junco Grande]

This is the exact reason I went with the MIL C. For me, just enough vertical for my use without unnecessary clutter.

 

[Guthwine]

I really like the MR4 reticle for that reason. So far I never had the need for more.

 

[samb300]

I really like the MR4 reticle for that reason.

I thought for a while about getting a Minox MR4, but couldn't get over only having 2 mils above. Personally I'd rather see it look like this:

 

[Josh1978]

I prefer the reticle to go all the way to the top. This feature allows me to take quick mil measurements if I should miss high and to the left or right. I think that this feature is especially important if I have to get another shot down range in a hurry. JMHO

 

[Dthomas3523]

I prefer the reticle to go all the way to the top. This feature allows me to take quick mil measurements if I should miss high and to the left or right. I think that this feature is especially important if I have to get another shot down range in a hurry. JMHO

Just an honest question, how often are you missing enough to require more then 4 or 5 mils?

Again, serious question as I may be overlooking an important scenario.

 

[sleeplz]

Just an honest question, how often are you missing enough to require more then 4 or 5 mils?

Again, serious question as I may be overlooking an important scenario.

When enemy taliban fighters are 4 mils in front of each other and i want to shoot far to near because the experienced fighters stay farther back. Duh.

 

[Josh1978]

Just an honest question, how often are you missing enough to require more then 4 or 5 mils?

Again, serious question as I may be overlooking an important scenario.

I hadn’t looked at it that way and that’s a great point. Now that I think about it, there really isn’t any need to have more than a few mils in any direction. Your question has changed my opinion.

 

[Josh1978]

@sleeplz makes a good point. If I were hunting savages, there might be an advantage to having the reticle all the way up on the Y axis. Lol

 

[Glassaholic]

Hi,

Nice topic!!
So let me preface the below with I do not shoot PRS matches so what I am getting ready to type may or may not be suitable for that utilization.

It would be nice to see a 2 mil pattern then wide open space.
A. That would allow for fast hold unders when needed.
B. That would allow for a less cluttered "mil'ing" utilization since you could use the hashes without as much clutter. (Yes LRF remove this for the most part but that is a skill that should never go away to electronics completely)
C. That would allow to use the wide open space portion as more of a spotting scope. With todays' rifle scope quality and magnification range that could be a marketing segment within itself...being able to reduce amount of gear you and your shooting partners need to pack.
D. For me it is easier to see trace without having to find it in the hash-mess.

Sincerely,
Theis

For the most part I'm with Theis' comments here, I also do not shoot PRS, although I like to challenge myself at the range and shoot similar "dynamic" shooting. For my crossover hunting/long range scopes I prefer an uncluttered view so having just two mils above is sufficient. However, for a more competition or tactical oriented rifle I would not mind a grid in the top. ZCO's Fallopian tube's in their MPCT3 reticle intrigues me for quick ranging (but the rest of the reticle does not appeal).

In one of the reticles I designed I had a grid on the top just like you refer, essentially to act as a spotter for another shooter

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

@wjm308
Are you the same guy way way back in like 2009 hand the reticle handbook/manual you put together with damn near every manufacturers reticle in it?

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Glassaholic]

Hi,

@wjm308
Are you the same guy way way back in like 2009 hand the reticle handbook/manual you put together with damn near every manufacturers reticle in it?

Sincerely,
Theis

Sounds like me (as I keep a large spreadsheet of data on most FFP scopes and used to have screenshots of many of their reticles), but no, that was someone else

 

[Dthomas3523]

Interesting. People are usually all over certain reticles and talking about seeing trace and such.

Not to many here have mentioned it much or talked about what/where they like to use to see their trace.

 

[stefan73]

I am just happy seeing the trace and then the splash. I like to run a problematic .300WM, mostly problematic because of the load data I was pushing but it was accurate as can be. Issue I had with seeing trace was that I also had a slight amount of recoil to deal with. My spotter used my M4 Leupold spotter with the mil reticle and it was handy to set it, keep your eye and hand off of it and call trace if high or low.

 

[_Windrider_]

You guys miss?

seriously though I think a simple 2 -3 mil vertical is more than adequate. This is why I really love the MSR2

 

[adubeau]

I have an SCR reticle, like much better than the reticle on my 2 - DB tacticals and the Nikon 22LR BDC... To each his own..

 

[supercorndogs]

I haven't used hold under much since I got rid of my TEMOR2 scopes. I would dial up and use hold under when I was having trouble spotting misses. That said I still want 5 mils above in case I miss 5 mils high, I want to see it. I bet he is measuring bullet holes on paper sighting in.

I really hated the having nothing on the H59, for the same reason I used hold under with the TREMOR. I have used the vertical stadia north of the reticle line very little. Sometimes I will dial mid targets and hold over and under for others. If I ever missed trace or splash because it went behind .05 mil line, I wouldn't know it anyway, but I bet it would be about the last reason people are missing trace and splash. All this dots on the other hand.....OOPs don't drift south of the horizontal stadia.

 

[IPoutdoors]

Vert all the way. I prefer to plumb bob my reticle in the dark room and the longer the vert, the better.