L3 unfilmed WP 2376+ for the win
Night Vision Looking for a knock your socks off PVS-14
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Enquiring minds would like to know who plays "Butch" and who plays "Betty"
Over a set of BNVD-SG WP HP+. Thats funny.
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She's been lonely lately as well!
We have a crap load of those
Unobtaniums coming May or June. As factory Mil Spec L3 as one can get for folks who want that.
Maybe? At the moment i'm thinking my next night purchase will be a IRay 50 (I think that's what it is called) scope.
And then see this: https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/2x-pvs-14-rnvg.7066095/#post-9371737
@TheHorta Is the manual gain important?
@TheHorta Is the manual gain important?
IMHO yes, manual gain is very important.
Bad thing about those RNVG is that the pods do not articulate.
Having the ability to articulate the pods out of the way is a huge benefit for many reasons.
1. You can roll up your dominate (shooting eye) pod while making the final stalk approach on some prey such that (if using a thermal weapon sight) all you have to do is get down on the scope and shoot. This is pretty important when hog hunting. (especially on spooky ones). Kinda like being at the low ready with a weapon. With RNVG you gotta stow them, which that delay, can cause you to miss shooting opportunities if your prey bolts and you are using a TWS.
2. Cannot roll up one pod such that you have one eye monitoring ambient lighting or other conditions. Basically with articulating Binos you have the option of running "single" or both eyes under NV. You do not have this option with RNVG. You either under NODS with both eyes or stowed.
3. So with articulating Binos you can roll both pods up without having to do a "full stow". This is really nice for getting out of or using NODS in vehicles, ATV's etc. With the RNVG, you gotta do a "full stow" to get out from under them.
A fixed bridge NOD system with no articulation of the pods is the very last NV system I would buy because you are so limited with what it can do.
I watched a bunch of video of the iray 640 stuff and it looks amazing. Right up there with the N-vision and triji and a bit cheaper. I had to dial back my wish list when my wife decided she wanted to play too. I'd love to have an iray or halo but will probably end up with a super hogster.
I decided pretty early on to bias my spending to the thermal side and go "functional" on the NV. If You do decide to go single tube i would check out the iray 25 for your other eye. We have a coti and its a neat device but limited. Only worth the money if your set on duals imo. We got one because my wife's one eyed like a pirate and its the only way to get NV and thermal for her.
I decided pretty early on to bias my spending to the thermal side and go "functional" on the NV. If You do decide to go single tube i would check out the iray 25 for your other eye. We have a coti and its a neat device but limited. Only worth the money if your set on duals imo. We got one because my wife's one eyed like a pirate and its the only way to get NV and thermal for her.
The COTI was designed and purposed for the 2 Way Range. In that setting, it is priceless. Nothing else (with a couple of limited exceptions that are basically unobtainium for most) can do what it can do.
It can also do double duty in the civi world in a hunting setting reasonably well for just letting you know something alive is out there. Understanding how to set the parameters up for its Gain for the emissivity conditions it is being used in, is critical for getting the proper performance out of it.
It actually works extremely well on a single. It also works extremely well on a PVS-7. Utilizing the COTI correctly is not as simple of a "plug and play" system as most other thermals are. It does one thing extremely well. Everything else it is relatively mediocre at compared to other devices.
The COTI in your toolbox is well worth the money.
Yeah we've realized its not a set it and forget thing and we've only begun to learn to use it. Wanted to point out that the coti for sale now are supposedly the last new production units that will be available.
Yes that is correct for the Pas 29A models. Per my conversation with Euro Optics a couple of weeks ago, they had a little over 200 remaining out of the 700 inventory liquidation deal they cut with Optics 1/Safran.
Manual gain is nice, and useful, but auto-gain works just fine under most conditions. I don’t use the gain control on my 31’s much at all, and I don’t really miss it on my DTNVGs.
It would definitely NOT be a deciding factor for me unless all other factors were essentially equal.
Most, aint all.
It is better to have and not need, than need and not have. When you need manual gain, you need manual gain.
Why limit oneself when full gain control capability is available for pretty much the same cost.
No arguments there. But it wouldn’t factor in heavily for me.
Horta, was really hoping you could answer this question.
If you don't know the answer maybe some of the "educate first and foremost" subject matter experts could answer the question.
Surely, some of the SME on here must know the answer.
Highlight resolution is the Achilles Heel of L3 tubes, and one of the areas where Photonis really wipes the floor with L3.
I know that as most everyone does.
But that was not the question.
Let me clarify and refine it some more.
Assume that both tubes are L3 filmless. So, does a 72 LP resolution (L3 filmless) tube suffer less degradation on its high light measurement than a (L3 filmless) 64 LP resolution tube, given they are both exposed to the same amount of high light.
Example:
72 LP exposed to high light = xx high light resolution
64 LF exposed to same exact light = xx high light resolution
Lemme see. I have a dozen L3 spec sheets with 64, 72, and 81lp.
Subscribing to the ARF NV forum was helpful for me a couple of months ago, though that forum has been slower lately. You have to be very quick about replying to the threads.
Not sure but I wear it regularly for 5-6 hour coyote hunts without issue
I have 9 tube sheets with high light res values in a spreadsheet I keep, all of which are L3H tubes. The Elbits don’t show that test result (if they do it at all). 7 of them show 36 for highlight res and are a mix of 64 and 72 regular resolution. Two show 45 highlight resolution and 72 regular. All a mix of 1701, 18UM, 20UA and 22UA with S:N values spread between 31 and 36.
JW, can you list out each one on here as to SN, Regular Resolution and its High Light Resolution.
Horta, when you gonna list yours up as well. We need a larger data set.
Plus you have a 81 LP, so that will be new data.
Plus you have a 81 LP, so that will be new data.
I'm assuming the high light resolution is an L3 thing as I don't see it on my Elbit spec sheet. I don't suppose there's a way to figure it out from the specs given? Something I've been wondering is if a filmless tube with the same numbers is better than a thin film or if the filmlessness is already factored in.
| Type | S:N | Res | High Res | PC Sens | EBI | Halo |
| 1701 | 34.0 | 72 | 36 | 2625 | 0.9 | 0.7 |
| 1701 | 35.7 | 72 | 36 | 2653 | 0.7 | 0.8 |
| 1701 | 34.3 | 72 | 45 | 2590 | 1.4 | 0.7 |
| 1701 | 34.2 | 72 | 45 | 2701 | 1.2 | 0.7 |
| 18UM | 32.5 | 64 | 36 | 2190 | 0.7 | 0.7 |
| 20UA | 31.7 | 72 | 36 | 2409 | 0.5 | 0.7 |
| 20UA | 34.3 | 72 | 36 | 2459 | 0.8 | 0.7 |
| 22UA | 32.2 | 72 | 36 | 2253 | 0.1 | 0.7 |
| 22UA | 32.3 | 72 | 36 | 2288 | 0.2 | 0.7 |
| 31a 2376+ | 35.4 | 72 | 36 | 2740 | 0.7 | 0.67 |
| 31a 2376+ | 33.0 | 72 | 36 | 2412 | 0.5 | 0.8 |
| 31a 2376+ | 34.1 | 72 | 36 | 2479 | 0.6 | 0.62 |
| 31a 2376+ | 33.2 | 72 | 36 | 2117 | 0.4 | 0.7 |
It's interesting that the two 45 hi res are the two highest EBI tubes by far. I wonder if there is any connection. Also, damn, Halos are consistent in these.
Good stuff JW.
Now if Horta (would quit lovin up on Vic for a few minutes , per his own admission) and supply the same information we would have a nifty little data set.
I like two eyes under nods over high spec as others have mentioned. If you still want the high spec pvs14, I got rnvgs from TNVC. I was able to request a bunch of minimum and maximum specs I wanted. They delivered some great tubes and it wasn’t any longer than the normal wait time, and it didn’t cost more. I ended up with fom 2500+, EBI and halo <.7, blem free.
I believe nocturnality/steele also offer hand select xlsh white phosphor tubes for a slight upcharge if you can’t swing the Unfilmed cost.
I believe nocturnality/steele also offer hand select xlsh white phosphor tubes for a slight upcharge if you can’t swing the Unfilmed cost.
I tend to think that L3 suffers from high light degradation more so than the Elbit thin filmed.
Definitely way more than Photonis.
Filmless and Thin Filmed with the same exact specs should yield similar performance but toobs are strange things and there are sometimes outlier toobs that defy their spec sheets in real world use.
Toobs be complicated critters, just like the womens.
I've been asking questions like that in a few threads because I'm trying to figure out what the huge advantage of these 5k tubes is. I get that some people are not limited by budget and then why not but for most of us $ becomes a factor at some point. I did a lot of research before I started buying and from early on decided to bias my spending towards thermal.
The xls tubes do everything I ask and the flexibility of having 2 vrs 1 high end tube for the price seems to make it a no brainer.
The xls tubes do everything I ask and the flexibility of having 2 vrs 1 high end tube for the price seems to make it a no brainer.
My sentiments and experience exactly.
To put basic numbers on it take the xls and flir breach as your basic head mount building blocks at around 2.5k. I'm going off videos and reviews because I haven't looked through a breach and haven't received my nox yet but it seemed by doubling the amount spent on thermal to a nox or iray 25 the performance increase is huge. Doubling my price from a xls to a L3 gets me what exactly? I'm not trying to justify my purchases here but am genuinely curious. I'm the 1st in my social circle to get in to NV and I'm telling people who are interested to get the xls and save the $ for thermal.
These are the specs on my tubes. The one with the better specs has a blem which I'm assuming is why it graded to the 2.5k level. The other tube is clean. Honestly the "better" tube seems a little clearer but the difference seems pretty minimal. The blem was annoying for like 15 min and then I didn't notice it anymore. I certainly wouldn't pay 2.5k to get rid of it.
1st 2nd
Photo 2304 2307
Halo .94 .73
Ebi .81 1.49
Res 64 76
Fom 1996 2447
Sn 31.2 32.2
Our setup is 2 xls 14s and a coti. We have a nox18 on the way and once we assess it we'll probably order a 2nd nox either 18 or 35. So we're likely spending 3x on thermal what we did on NV and I haven't seen any reason to 2nd guess this so far.
These are the specs on my tubes. The one with the better specs has a blem which I'm assuming is why it graded to the 2.5k level. The other tube is clean. Honestly the "better" tube seems a little clearer but the difference seems pretty minimal. The blem was annoying for like 15 min and then I didn't notice it anymore. I certainly wouldn't pay 2.5k to get rid of it.
1st 2nd
Photo 2304 2307
Halo .94 .73
Ebi .81 1.49
Res 64 76
Fom 1996 2447
Sn 31.2 32.2
Our setup is 2 xls 14s and a coti. We have a nox18 on the way and once we assess it we'll probably order a 2nd nox either 18 or 35. So we're likely spending 3x on thermal what we did on NV and I haven't seen any reason to 2nd guess this so far.
Well, I'm a cheaper than you.
I run the Breach cause its cheap, easy to power with the Mod Armory Battery Extender (rechargeable 16650's), it's a tough small unit, and does good enough on detecting.
The NOX is definitely a much better unit than the Breach
However, my logic has been this (from using even some of the higher end Trijicon Thermals). A 5x Magnifier on a PVS 14 and Luna Illuminator, always gives me a better PID than thermal can give me. If a 5x can't do it, slap a 10x magnifier on.
Now I do have a FLIR PTS 736 which is a long range beast at 6X native mag. It is a great long range shooter in the toolbox.
A lot of people want their scanner to be high end. I get it. Me, I am ok with mediocre scanner just for detection cause I can PID with 14, Magnifier and Luna.
I do like my TWS to be on the higher end performance wise and performance wise includes all aspects, not just the image.
NV for walking around. Thermal for finding critters. NV for PID critters. Thermal or NV (both on instant demand) for killen critters.
Yep, sinking a ton of money into "super toobs" gets me zero additional performance than I get with my current setups.
I aint looking for bragging rights at a static NV training event.
I run the Breach cause its cheap, easy to power with the Mod Armory Battery Extender (rechargeable 16650's), it's a tough small unit, and does good enough on detecting.
The NOX is definitely a much better unit than the Breach
However, my logic has been this (from using even some of the higher end Trijicon Thermals). A 5x Magnifier on a PVS 14 and Luna Illuminator, always gives me a better PID than thermal can give me. If a 5x can't do it, slap a 10x magnifier on.
Now I do have a FLIR PTS 736 which is a long range beast at 6X native mag. It is a great long range shooter in the toolbox.
A lot of people want their scanner to be high end. I get it. Me, I am ok with mediocre scanner just for detection cause I can PID with 14, Magnifier and Luna.
I do like my TWS to be on the higher end performance wise and performance wise includes all aspects, not just the image.
NV for walking around. Thermal for finding critters. NV for PID critters. Thermal or NV (both on instant demand) for killen critters.
Yep, sinking a ton of money into "super toobs" gets me zero additional performance than I get with my current setups.
I aint looking for bragging rights at a static NV training event.
I’m going to buy a 14 and magnifier for the same purpose as you use. I was originally thinking 3x magnifier, but now you got me thinking maybe 5x would be better.Well, I'm a cheaper than you.
I run the Breach cause its cheap, easy to power with the Mod Armory Battery Extender (rechargeable 16650's), it's a tough small unit, and does good enough on detecting.
The NOX is definitely a much better unit than the Breach
However, my logic has been this (from using even some of the higher end Trijicon Thermals). A 5x Magnifier on a PVS 14 and Luna Illuminator, always gives me a better PID than thermal can give me. If a 5x can't do it, slap a 10x magnifier on.
Now I do have a FLIR PTS 736 which is a long range beast at 6X native mag. It is a great long range shooter in the toolbox.
A lot of people want their scanner to be high end. I get it. Me, I am ok with mediocre scanner just for detection cause I can PID with 14, Magnifier and Luna.
I do like my TWS to be on the higher end performance wise and performance wise includes all aspects, not just the image.
NV for walking around. Thermal for finding critters. NV for PID critters. Thermal or NV (both on instant demand) for killen critters.
Yep, sinking a ton of money into "super toobs" gets me zero additional performance than I get with my current setups.
I aint looking for bragging rights at a static NV training event.
Anyone with experience on here using a photonis echo with a magnifier? Does the echo perform ok with the echo? Or then does the “darkerness” of the echo become a problem?
A Photonis Echo with a 3x or 5x magnifier and illuminating the target with a Luna ELIR-3 will typically give a cleaner image than L3 or Elbit Thin filmed if it is a decent spec Echo. (Does not have to be a super toob Echo at all)
I have used a T20 LED illuminator in conjunction with a 6x night scope. Usually turning on the IR cuts the distance that the scope can see drastically when it automatically adjusts to the higher light (light coming back from the closest ridge makes the ridges behind it not visible). The pain is, if there is any cover close to you at all, it will light up and you can’t see anything behind it. I assume all night vision behaves this way.
I’ve wondered if switching to a laser-based illuminator would cut down on the stray light cast on the ground/grass in front of me, and help with this problem. In other words, light up ONLY a small circle in the FOV of the optic. If I got a Luna, would it work like that? I know they focus down really tight. Is there stray light that comes off them or does laser eliminate that?
I’ve wondered if switching to a laser-based illuminator would cut down on the stray light cast on the ground/grass in front of me, and help with this problem. In other words, light up ONLY a small circle in the FOV of the optic. If I got a Luna, would it work like that? I know they focus down really tight. Is there stray light that comes off them or does laser eliminate that?
Same shit with laser. Best option, if you have it, is for spotter to illuminate the target from an angle.
Crap.
I don't have much issue using the Luna. Focus the beam down to basically the FOV of the magnifier or less.
So I would typically have the magnifier on the right pod and have the Luna in my left hand held up as high as I can get it.
Kind of mimics what Choid says about illuminating the target from an angle. I have not noticed my NODS throttling back much but I do adjust the POWAH of the Luna with the Rheostat depending on the distance I am PID ing a critter at.
That makes sense. Goes back to what Jay (Surgeon Shooter) said in his Youtube vid.
If you have to use an illuminator the Photonis will be the best performer to have in your clip on.
Well, went L3 PVS-14 2396+ FOM WP from TNVC - a big thank you to Victor for fielding my call. Down the road i'll bridge 2 PVS-14's, or resell and buy duals. Thanks for the input and help gentlemen.
@Horta Do you still think your statement above is correct after you have had time to really think about it.
Or do you think there may be other factors to consider. Especially in the context of what I originally stated.
"What they fail to understand and set forth (especially to a new comer to NV) is the fact that to be able to get the utmost benefit out of a PVS 14, it is highly desirable and advantageous to use 3x, 5x and 10x magnifiers quite often for extended range PID on critters and stuff out to 1,000 yards.
When using a magnifier on a PVS 14 for extended range PID, a 72 line pair or better tube will give a much better image for PID.
I do this quite often when I detect critters at great distance with Thermal. Thermal in many cases cannot provide a PID so I slip an appropriate size Magnifier (dependent on distance) on the 14 and light the critter up with a Luna and get PID very easily."
I realize I'm probably being a pest at this point but could you explain why you went that route? I'm the first one in my circle to get NV so far which makes me the defacto guru and I have told people that imo these high dollar tubes are not worth the money. Am I missing something?
I get if the L3 is the Cadillac and you have the means why not. I have Swaro binos and a kowa fluorite spotter so I am a believer that that extra 5% is worth it in some things. I can see it in spotting equipment and thermals but not really in a pvs14.
I'm not much of a drinker so thats over my head. Expensive I'm assuming? I'm certainly not one to judge someone on what they spend their own money on. If it's bragging rights that certainly has value up into the millions for some people. If the answer is simply he can afford it and others can't more power to him.
I guess it does have envy right in the name though
@GreenMushroom
Well for me it is all about the cost/benefit/performance ratio.
So a $5,000 single PVS 14 with a 1 year warranty and a Spot/Spec specification that allows up to a .003" spots in Zone 1 and can have max 4 spots per tube larger than .003″ just does not cut it for me.
Especially for a toob that only performs slightly better in super low light conditions against other toobs but does not perform enough better in super low light to make real world decisions without firing up an illuminator.
A set of those XLSH BNVD at sub $6,000 will give you a much better real world performance and at a heck of a better Cost/Benefit/Performance ratio. IMHO
Well for me it is all about the cost/benefit/performance ratio.
So a $5,000 single PVS 14 with a 1 year warranty and a Spot/Spec specification that allows up to a .003" spots in Zone 1 and can have max 4 spots per tube larger than .003″ just does not cut it for me.
Especially for a toob that only performs slightly better in super low light conditions against other toobs but does not perform enough better in super low light to make real world decisions without firing up an illuminator.
A set of those XLSH BNVD at sub $6,000 will give you a much better real world performance and at a heck of a better Cost/Benefit/Performance ratio. IMHO
So if I wanted to "flex" in my firearm themed menageries with a bottle of distilled spirits would that be an appropriate vintage?
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