Your PVA prefit experience

#901
Rob01 said:
That’s the good part about picking an action that can take prefits or at least get sent to PVA once to get measured as you can use the same stock, action, scope rings/mount and scope and just order and change out barrels at home whether being caliber or length or contour and have different set ups. It saves you a bunch of money in the long run over having to buy a bunch of rifles fully set up. You can get a better set up and just swap barrels.
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I've turned a blind eye to this for years but finally starting to see the light. LOL.
PVA is doing a 22 Creed for me for the new Seekins PH3. Working through some kinks around the profile of the PH3, but it will soon be finished and can't wait to see how it performs.
 
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#902
@bohem out of curiosity, do you have any thoughts as to the optimal barrel torque to prevent zero shift? It seems like a lot of the guys who are really into preventing zero-shift torque theirs to 100 ft/lbs but I'm unsure how much goes into that.
 
#904
bohem said:
We started a video series... I can't promise how quickly these will come out but we will be documenting a bunch of "How To" assembly and troubleshooting videos for the precision rifle shooter.

Click to expand...

So youtube let me subscribe to your channel but when I gave a thumbs-up cause the counter was at zero, it stayed at zero lulz. Fucking youtube
 
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#905
Rob01 said:
My .02, never torqued a barrel near 100 foot pounds and never had zero shift. I usually do mine around 60-70.
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I'm mainly curious about it because I've been trying to zero-shift-proof my hunting rifle after I had a shift while traveling to a hunt last fall. I know that some builders torque magnum barrels to 100 ft/lbs and non-magnums to 75 ft/lbs but I don't know if there's any relation to zero-shift or not. The guys paranoid about it all seem to go 100 ft/lbs even for non-magnums.
 
#906
NateVA said:
@bohem out of curiosity, do you have any thoughts as to the optimal barrel torque to prevent zero shift? It seems like a lot of the guys who are really into preventing zero-shift torque theirs to 100 ft/lbs but I'm unsure how much goes into that.
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We have long recommended 75ftlb for bolt guns and 100ftlb on magnums. I did testing on the topic and it seems like anything over about 55 with a regular bolt gun is fine, assuming well cut threads and greased joint. However the reason we use 75 is to put in a little extra for guys without a torque wrench that want to just "pop it" with their hand and they don't get a reliable number on install.

It's funny to me that we get this question about install torque but then people talk about quick change barrels using set screws and no joint preload (torque) as if it's somehow going to be different. There needs to be some torque on the barrel or the zero will wander. I've long advised customers on the set screw setups that if they see a problem; remove the set screws and torque the barrel on to 75ft lb. If it goes away you know where the problem was.

The fans of that set screw setup usually villify me for it but it's one of those things that has a lot of empirical data to support being a marginal (at best) idea... hard to argue with hard data.

NateVA said:
I'm mainly curious about it because I've been trying to zero-shift-proof my hunting rifle after I had a shift while traveling to a hunt last fall. I know that some builders torque magnum barrels to 100 ft/lbs and non-magnums to 75 ft/lbs but I don't know if there's any relation to zero-shift or not. The guys paranoid about it all seem to go 100 ft/lbs even for non-magnums.
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100ftlb with greased threads and shoulder surfaces will probably solve your issue unless it's in the scope.
 
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#907
bohem said:
We have long recommended 75ftlb for bolt guns and 100ftlb on magnums. I did testing on the topic and it seems like anything over about 55 with a regular bolt gun is fine, assuming well cut threads and greased joint. However the reason we use 75 is to put in a little extra for guys without a torque wrench that want to just "pop it" with their hand and they don't get a reliable number on install.

It's funny to me that we get this question about install torque but then people talk about quick change barrels using set screws and no joint preload (torque) as if it's somehow going to be different. There needs to be some torque on the barrel or the zero will wander. I've long advised customers on the set screw setups that if they see a problem; remove the set screws and torque the barrel on to 75ft lb. If it goes away you know where the problem was.

The fans of that set screw setup usually villify me for it but it's one of those things that has a lot of empirical data to support being a marginal (at best) idea... hard to argue with hard data.


100ftlb with greased threads and shoulder surfaces will probably solve your issue unless it's in the scope.
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I had that happen with a different rifle last fall but my new rifle build has a barrel installed by PVA in 6CM. On the off chance I experience a zero-shift (very unlikely to be the barrel I'm sure), would torquing the barrel to 100 ft/lbs change the headspace or cause issues if the barrel was originally chambered by PVA for a 75 ft/lbs torque?

I know this is kind of in the weeds but I'm just making sure if something pops up down the line I have some nuclear options open to me. I already switched over to a NF ATACR scope, loctited/witness marked every screw on the new gun/scope base/rings, etc.
 
#908
NateVA said:
I had that happen with a different rifle last fall but my new rifle build has a barrel installed by PVA in 6CM. On the off chance I experience a zero-shift (very unlikely to be the barrel I'm sure), would torquing the barrel to 100 ft/lbs change the headspace or cause issues if the barrel was originally chambered by PVA for a 75 ft/lbs torque?

I know this is kind of in the weeds but I'm just making sure if something pops up down the line I have some nuclear options open to me. I already switched over to a NF ATACR scope, loctited/witness marked every screw on the new gun/scope base/rings, etc.
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Nope, you won't have a HS issue. Differences of a micron or two, perhaps... but nothing that will actually be measureable or make a difference
 
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#909
NateVA said:
I had that happen with a different rifle last fall but my new rifle build has a barrel installed by PVA in 6CM. On the off chance I experience a zero-shift (very unlikely to be the barrel I'm sure), would torquing the barrel to 100 ft/lbs change the headspace or cause issues if the barrel was originally chambered by PVA for a 75 ft/lbs torque?

I know this is kind of in the weeds but I'm just making sure if something pops up down the line I have some nuclear options open to me. I already switched over to a NF ATACR scope, loctited/witness marked every screw on the new gun/scope base/rings, etc.
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I would be more worried about every other variable that can effect zero shift than the barrel torque. Do you know 100% it was how the barrel was torqued on? I really think your OCD is messing with you.

A very well known and respected rifle company here on the Hide for 25 years and building many hunting and match rifles doesn’t even use a torque wrench. They use a long T handle action wrench and tighten the action on the barrel, when it touches they come off about a 1/4 turn and then slam it tight. Done. That’s magnums and others. Never hear about their rifles loosing zero.
 
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#910
Rob01 said:
I would be more worried about every other variable that can effect zero shift than the barrel torque. Do you know 100% it was how the barrel was torqued on?
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Well I've already addressed every other variable other than the scope rings at this point. Though the rings I'm using are ARC M-Brace rings so I'm not horribly worried about them. I'm just about to start shooting and preparing for another destination hunting trip this November and as a result I'm thinking of anything I didn't address yet in case it ends up happening again, which I'm sure is very unlikely. If it does, I'll torque the barrel to 100 ft/lbs and change the rings out.
 
#911
NateVA said:
Well I've already addressed every other variable other than the scope rings at this point. Though the rings I'm using are ARC M-Brace rings so I'm not horribly worried about them. I'm just about to start shooting and preparing for another destination hunting trip this November and as a result I'm thinking of anything I didn't address yet in case it ends up happening again, which I'm sure is very unlikely. If it does, I'll torque the barrel to 100 ft/lbs and change the rings out.
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Do you zero at the location before the hunt at the location? Going to a different location of temp, elevation etc would be my main concern about zero change from my home range to the hunt location.
 
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#912
Rob01 said:
Do you zero at the location before the hunt at the location? Going to a different location of temp, elevation etc would be my main concern about zero change from my home range to the hunt location.
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The way I understand it (which may be completely wrong) is there are almost no conditions where my 100 yard zero should change. I've played with it in a ballistic calculator before and I couldn't manage to change the conditions enough to get a measurable 100 yard zero change. I'd set the zero to 25 yards, screw around with the variables, and see if I could make the drop at 100 yards change. Being 0.3 MRAD low just doesn't seem like an environmental thing to me, especially going from sea level to 4,000 ft elevation.

I get that it definitely has an effect on my external ballistics the longer the range is. But a 100 yard zero is a 100 yard zero.
 
#913
NateVA said:
The way I understand it (which may be completely wrong) is there are almost no conditions where my 100 yard zero should change. I've played with it in a ballistic calculator before and I couldn't manage to change the conditions enough to get a measurable 100 yard zero change. I'd set the zero to 25 yards, screw around with the variables, and see if I could make the drop at 100 yards change. Being 0.3 MRAD low just doesn't seem like an environmental thing to me, especially going from sea level to 4,000 ft elevation.

I get that it definitely has an effect on my external ballistics the longer the range is. But a 100 yard zero is a 100 yard zero.
Click to expand...

Not really. I have flown all over the country to shoot matches and always check my zero and there have been changes at 100. Environmental changes do effect the ballistics as temp can effect powder, even good stable powders. That’s driving to a match with care on handling the rifle. Air travel can effect the rifle as a whole with being banged around and honestly .3 mils is not a lot.

Snug your barrels on to 100 but I think you are fixated on and worrying about a non issue in the barrel torque to action interface. Check when you get there and rock on. What I always did for matches going from sea level to 4000 feet and also working up a load in the teens in February in CT and then traveling to south TX and it being in the 80-90s.

And not being a wise ass. Just trying to help.
 
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#914
Rob01 said:
Not really. I have flown all over the country to shoot matches and always check my zero and there have been changes at 100. Environmental changes do effect the ballistics as temp can effect powder, even good stable powders. That’s driving to a match with care on handling the rifle. Air travel can effect the rifle as a whole with being banged around and honestly .3 mils is not a lot.

Snug your barrels on to 100 but I think you are fixated on and worrying about a non issue in the barrel torque to action interface. Check when you get there and rock on. What I always did for matches going from sea level to 4000 feet and also working up a load in the teens in February in CT and then traveling to south TX and it being in the 80-90s.

And not being a wise ass. Just trying to help.
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I'm 100% sure I'm overly fixated on it. However, I just threw some variables into Hornady 4DOF assuming a 25 yard zero just to see how much the change at 100 yards would be in an extreme situation.

143gr ELD-X at 2600 fps MV
0 ft elevation
10% humidity
10 degrees fahrenheit

143gr ELD-X at 2700 fps MV (added 100 fps)
10,000 ft elevation
80% humidity
80 degrees fahrenheit

The difference was 0.04 at 100 yards. So I think a 0.3 MRAD shift is quite large unless there's a variable I'm forgetting ballistics-wise or my system of trying to simulate environmental effects on a 100 yard zero is unsound, which is possible.
 
#915
NateVA said:
I'm 100% sure I'm overly fixated on it. However, I just threw some variables into Hornady 4DOF assuming a 25 yard zero just to see how much the change at 100 yards would be in an extreme situation.

143gr ELD-X at 2600 fps MV
0 ft elevation
10% humidity
10 degrees fahrenheit

143gr ELD-X at 2700 fps MV (added 100 fps)
10,000 ft elevation
80% humidity
80 degrees fahrenheit

The difference was 0.04 at 100 yards. So I think a 0.3 MRAD shift is quite large unless there's a variable I'm forgetting ballistics-wise or my system of trying to simulate environmental effects on a 100 yard zero is unsound, which is possible.
Click to expand...

Can only tell you my actual experiences in changing lots of variables, locations and travel. Rezero and move on. Don’t stress it. 100ft/lbs is not needed but if it makes you feel better than do it. You will most likely still see a small shift but if you have it at 100 you know that’s not it.
 
#916
One of the things that sometimes gets people hung up is the fact that they go right from the airport, to the rental car, to the zero day.

They check zero and then fix it.
Then chase it on the first day of the match, then rezero, then cuss that their scope was messed up.

What really happened was that the rifle cold soaked in the baggage compartment of the jet.
Then it stayed in an air conditioned car.
Then it got pulled out and exposed to a 100F Texas or Florida afternoon. The optics are light, hollow, and black. The rifle is heavy, typically has shiny parts and black or painted parts, and the ammo was riding around in that same cold environment.

The rifle needs to acclimate and things will settle.

That 0.3mrad shift you're talking about is entirely possible due to thermal changes that haven't had the time to really settle out.

I have watched this happen to guys more times than I can count while traveling for matches. Consistency is the key to this game.

It may not be applicable to your specific situation, but it could be related. In a hunting camp you will have the rifle acclimated and things will be fine. When you get to camp open the case and let things normalize thermally, go stretch yourself out and work out the muscle kinks from all the traveling. Dry fire a handful of times and then try it.
 
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#917
Heck, I'm 4 miles from the range in SW Florida-learned to acclimate the scoped guns otherwise condesation will hold you up a few minutes. 70, low humidity to 85-90 with close to that humidity is clammy!
 
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#918
Baron23 said:
Put ‘em up on Hide TV….maybe?
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Bohem, what can you tell us about the WTL actions that you offer for barreled actions? How do they compare to the Solus? Also, will you be offering barreled actions with their action that doesn’t use a trigger hanger? Thanks in advance. Just trying to figure out what direction I want to go for the Black Friday sales.
 
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#919
bohem said:
One of the things that sometimes gets people hung up is the fact that they go right from the airport, to the rental car, to the zero day.

They check zero and then fix it.
Then chase it on the first day of the match, then rezero, then cuss that their scope was messed up.

What really happened was that the rifle cold soaked in the baggage compartment of the jet.
Then it stayed in an air conditioned car.
Then it got pulled out and exposed to a 100F Texas or Florida afternoon. The optics are light, hollow, and black. The rifle is heavy, typically has shiny parts and black or painted parts, and the ammo was riding around in that same cold environment.

The rifle needs to acclimate and things will settle.

That 0.3mrad shift you're talking about is entirely possible due to thermal changes that haven't had the time to really settle out.

I have watched this happen to guys more times than I can count while traveling for matches. Consistency is the key to this game.

It may not be applicable to your specific situation, but it could be related. In a hunting camp you will have the rifle acclimated and things will be fine. When you get to camp open the case and let things normalize thermally, go stretch yourself out and work out the muscle kinks from all the traveling. Dry fire a handful of times and then try it.
Click to expand...
What’s your current non-rush delivery estimates for RimX prefits?

Thanks
 
#920
Was hoping to come here and tell yall how great my 18” carbon osprey in 25 creed shoots, but that doesn’t seem to be the case, at least not so far. Finally got a chance to go to the range today as my atx just got back from the smith’s. Got set up at the range and shot about a 1.5 moa 5 shot group @ 100 yards. Thought no big deal it’ll settle in after about 10 rounds. Let the rifle cool, and repeated with same results. Did this 5 times with the same results with the factory 134 elm’s. Thought maybe I had missed a step installing the barrel so broke it loose and retorted everything, even removed anything I thought might be contacting it. Shot a 2 moa group after that with factory 128 Eldx. By this point I’m pretty bummed and wondering if it’s just an off day for me so I grabbed my Geissele GFR and shot a .6 moa 5 shot group.

Not sure what to do at this point, going to check torque on the rifle chassis and see if something is off and if so I’ll shoot it again to confirm accuracy. If it won’t shoot I’ll ship it back to pva and see what they say. Really sucks as I sent them a box of factory Eldm and Eldx for them to measure when they were chambering the barrel. I guess the factory AI barrels have spoiled me a bit with factory ammo. Will update with my findings/results as I dig into this issue.
 
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#922
CStroud said:
Was hoping to come here and tell yall how great my 18” carbon osprey in 25 creed shoots, but that doesn’t seem to be the case, at least not so far. Finally got a chance to go to the range today as my atx just got back from the smith’s. Got set up at the range and shot about a 1.5 moa 5 shot group @ 100 yards. Thought no big deal it’ll settle in after about 10 rounds. Let the rifle cool, and repeated with same results. Did this 5 times with the same results with the factory 134 elm’s. Thought maybe I had missed a step installing the barrel so broke it loose and retorted everything, even removed anything I thought might be contacting it. Shot a 2 moa group after that with factory 128 Eldx. By this point I’m pretty bummed and wondering if it’s just an off day for me so I grabbed my Geissele GFR and shot a .6 moa 5 shot group.

Not sure what to do at this point, going to check torque on the rifle chassis and see if something is off and if so I’ll shoot it again to confirm accuracy. If it won’t shoot I’ll ship it back to pva and see what they say. Really sucks as I sent them a box of factory Eldm and Eldx for them to measure when they were chambering the barrel. I guess the factory AI barrels have spoiled me a bit with factory ammo. Will update with my findings/results as I dig into this issue.
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I would def give the barrel a thorough cleaning. Also If you aren’t going to handload (tune the ammo to the gun) and seem set on using specific factory ammo, have you tried using a tunable muzzle brake like the one from Cortina? This would tune the rifle to the ammo
 
#924
WeR0206 said:
I would def give the barrel a thorough cleaning. Also If you aren’t going to handload (tune the ammo to the gun) and seem set on using specific factory ammo, have you tried using a tunable muzzle brake like the one from Cortina? This would tune the rifle to the ammo
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It’s going to be my hunting barrel, not going to shoot a brake for that.
 
#927
Were you shooting it with the suppressor on it for the test? If not I would put it on and try it after a cleaning.

Also you can use a tuner with a suppressor. The ATS tuner allows the can to be screwed on over it.

IMG_0108.jpeg
IMG_8824.jpeg
 
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#930
CStroud said:
Suppressor was on, and I’m aware of the tuners and how they work with and without suppressors. Had one on my bergara 22 for a while. I just don’t believe in spending another few hundred dollars to get a barrel to do what it should already do.
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Getting a barrel to shoot well with factory ammo (without any tuning of the gun) is nice but it’s also not a guarantee and you kind of have to get lucky that your particular barrel happens to like the coal, powder, and bullet in the factory ammo. There could even be variations with multiple barrels from the same manufacturer that are all exactly the same but shoot the factory ammo differently due to slight differences in reamer wear, barrel harmonics, etc..

IOW I wouldn’t judge the barrel solely on how it shoots factory ammo with ZERO tuning of the rifle. Most folks buying 25 creed are probably handloading I would guess.

If you have a barrel vice, action wrench, and torque wrench another way you can try tuning the rifle to the ammo would be to try different torques, start at 75 ft-lbs and go up/down by 10 ft-lb increments and see what the does.
 
#931
WeR0206 said:
Getting a barrel to shoot well with factory ammo (without any tuning of the gun) is nice but it’s also not a guarantee and you kind of have to get lucky that your particular barrel happens to like the coal, powder, and bullet in the factory ammo. There could even be variations with multiple barrels from the same manufacturer that are all exactly the same but shoot the factory ammo differently due to slight differences in reamer wear, barrel harmonics, etc..

IOW I wouldn’t judge the barrel solely on how it shoots factory ammo with ZERO tuning of the rifle. Most folks buying 25 creed are probably handloading I would guess.

If you have a barrel vice, action wrench, and torque wrench another way you can try tuning the rifle to the ammo would be to try different torques, start at 75 ft-lbs and go up/down by 10 ft-lb increments and see what the does.
Click to expand...

Disagree. What I’ve been seeing factory seekins and tikka do with factory ammo is impressive!! No way a custom action and barrel should not perform better than those

You should not need to use any tuning techniques to get a barrel down under 3/4”
 
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#934
WeR0206 said:
Getting a barrel to shoot well with factory ammo (without any tuning of the gun) is nice but it’s also not a guarantee and you kind of have to get lucky that your particular barrel happens to like the coal, powder, and bullet in the factory ammo.
Click to expand...
An $800 barrel should shoot 1moa or sub-moa out of the box just like an $800 Tikka.
 
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#936
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#940
I might just be cursed lol. Took the rifle down and checked torque in everything, all good. Removed barrel and cleaned it well, no signs of any copper really. Reinstalled barrel, torqued set screw to 49 in lbs, then went to remount my scope and snapped my badger base. So no shooting today. Gonna relax and try not to throw everything the dumpster 🤣
 
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#941
Maurygold said:
Disagree. What I’ve been seeing factory seekins and tikka do with factory ammo is impressive!! No way a custom action and barrel should not perform better than those

You should not need to use any tuning techniques to get a barrel down under 3/4”
Click to expand...
I pretty much agree but 25 CM is such a new chambering that I wouldn't be shocked if factory ammo wasn't amazing right out of the gate with my gun. But yeah with 2 MOA something is def off...for some reason I had it in my head he was at 1ish MOA and was trying to tighten it up some more
 
#942
CStroud said:
I might just be cursed lol. Took the rifle down and checked torque in everything, all good. Removed barrel and cleaned it well, no signs of any copper really. Reinstalled barrel, torqued set screw to 49 in lbs, then went to remount my scope and snapped my badger base. So no shooting today. Gonna relax and try not to throw everything the dumpster 🤣
Click to expand...
Haha I've definitely had days like that too when there's just one thing after another that seems to go awry, best to take a break for a few days/week and revisit.
 
#943
134’s were 1.5 ish, I tried three rounds of the 128 Eldx to finish the day. First shot centered the bullseye, next one was and inch high and left, and the third was almost an inch low from center and an inch left. Couldn’t go take pics too many other people shooting on the same section of the range.
 
#944
CStroud said:
134’s were 1.5 ish, I tried three rounds of the 128 Eldx to finish the day. First shot centered the bullseye, next one was and inch high and left, and the third was almost an inch low from center and an inch left. Couldn’t go take pics too many other people shooting on the same section of the range.
Click to expand...
Sorry if I missed this but what's the total round count on the barrel so far?
 
#946
CStroud said:
I might just be cursed lol. Took the rifle down and checked torque in everything, all good. Removed barrel and cleaned it well, no signs of any copper really. Reinstalled barrel, torqued set screw to 49 in lbs, then went to remount my scope and snapped my badger base. So no shooting today. Gonna relax and try not to throw everything the dumpster 🤣
Click to expand...
Perhaps the base was cracked and causing the poor groups?
 
#948
Keep us updated on how pva handles it. IMO this is where gunsmiths can really stand out or fall apart - when it comes to addressing potential issues with their work.

I’ll never send that pos Greg at bugholes another dollar after how he handled his shoddy work (tested and proven by him to be his fault). Hoping pva stands by their work and helps you if it comes to that.
 
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#949
Maurygold said:
Keep us updated on how pva handles it. IMO this is where gunsmiths can really stand out or fall apart - when it comes to addressing potential issues with their work.

I’ll never send that pos Greg at bugholes another dollar after how he handled his shoddy work (tested and proven by him to be his fault). Hoping pva stands by their work and helps you if it comes to that.
Click to expand...
Yikes, that sucks to hear Greg acted that way, he seems to come highly recommended on the hide.

FWIW I was having a gassing issue with a PVA osprey AR barrel and they were very responsive and didn't leave me hanging (which unfortunately happens all too often with many vendors/manufacturers). I would just make sure to send the PVA guys an email ([email protected]) and not rely on them seeing a random post in a massive thread. cc: @CStroud
 
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