This!
7 BC will be just like the 30 super carry or whatever it is called in a few years.
7 BC will be just like the 30 super carry or whatever it is called in a few years.
We were discussing the 7 PRC as under performing in velocity.
The 300 -7 mm PRC or other larger case would be one answer to the problem, which some shooters should consider.
But someone has to make the custom dies for these Wildcats like 300-7 mm PRC or similar too.
Some competition shooters have always been altering and wildcating cases for more exacting performance for their particular endeavor.
I do not consider extra cost of dies a problem, for just adding more case capacity, we've been doing so since the beginning of metallic cartridges. You have to pay a little extra for extra performance.
In the 7mm BC those are not excessive dangerous pressures, but standard operating pressure is 80,000 psi...it's where it is designed to operate and gets its extra velocity from.
The draw back there is I have to make reloading dies...not for the average reloader ...RCBS is supposed to be making dies.
Until then it's not for those who want to handload.
Bottom line if your happy with your 7 PRC's velocity, great, run it....
If you are disappointed in its low performance, as many are, not delivering what is stated on the cartridge box...
Then change to something that will deliver the velocity for "your" needs.
There are lots of 7mm cartridges to choose from, ...or make up your own.
Your choice...
If you are disappointed in its low performance, as many are, not delivering what is stated on the cartridge box...
Then change to something that will deliver the velocity for "your" needs.
There are lots of 7mm cartridges to choose from, ...or make up your own.
Your choice...
Jesus fucking Christ can we please stay on topic? Nobody here gives a flying fuck about your hypersonic missile take it to Putin and see if he will buy it
I happen to look at the HODGDON website today and they are also listing the Max H1000 load with a 180 at 64 grains, with a state of pressure of 62,500 or so which is still below the max rated for the cartridge depending upon where you look
My own loads in two different guns are not getting pressure signs at 67.5 grains with a 180 loaded to 3.320 in Horty brass. The one good thing about using that brass is you know it will give up earlier so when I switched to LA PUA later this fall hopefullyI should be in good territory
I happen to look at the HODGDON website today and they are also listing the Max H1000 load with a 180 at 64 grains, with a state of pressure of 62,500 or so which is still below the max rated for the cartridge depending upon where you look
My own loads in two different guns are not getting pressure signs at 67.5 grains with a 180 loaded to 3.320 in Horty brass. The one good thing about using that brass is you know it will give up earlier so when I switched to LA PUA later this fall hopefullyI should be in good territory
Yup, I’ve got 190s that comfortably go 3025 over Retumbo in the sad sack 7PRC. The real answer to getting the best out of the 7PRC is using a long action so that you can seat the long heavies out where they belong. This gives room and drops pressure at better velocities for those seeking them.
For everyone else, pushing 180s at 2800 is plenty for taking down any game you’ll find.
My point to Mr. 45-90,000 I’m better at everything than anyone else, was that he has a consistent pattern of jumping into threads and then blabbing incessantly about a totally other cartridge and won’t shut up. He has no filter and no understanding of staying on topic. Nor does he care.
Plus he just cannot help but show off always and all the time that his choice is superior. As if anyone asked or cares about his bullshit.
geez they dropped it way back, like to know the story behind that one.
Attachments
Loving the 7prc here. Did my load workup today with my new rig and got 190 Atips scooting at 3k fps from a 26" MPA factory build.
Brass - Peterson virgin brass
Powder - 69gr H1000
Primer - CCI 250
Bullet - Hornady 190gr Atip
Length - 2.258 CBTO
Gun - MPA factory 7prc build, 26" barrel
Very slight case head swipe, no heavy bolt lift.
Brass - Peterson virgin brass
Powder - 69gr H1000
Primer - CCI 250
Bullet - Hornady 190gr Atip
Length - 2.258 CBTO
Gun - MPA factory 7prc build, 26" barrel
Very slight case head swipe, no heavy bolt lift.
Thanks for that! 67.4 as I remembered it!!!
Or we are assuming that it is lot to lot of variability in powder when truly it is lot-to-lot variability in Hornady’s shitty soft brass
no doubt, i hope its not powder differences cause i think we all are WAY over their new data.
Yeah they have some explaining to do.
It is plainly irresponsible to change your data that drastically without some sort of announcement
It is plainly irresponsible to change your data that drastically without some sort of announcement
I've been getting 2985fps with berger 190s loaded 5 times. No pressure signs primer pockets still tight. Peterson brass, N570, fed210m primers. 28inch barrel. Love my 7prc.
On the line with "Sean" in the reloading tech section at Hornady.
His explanation is that "their original test barrel was at or slightly over pressure at 67.4, but recently they replaced their test barrel and got significantly higher pressures, so revised the loading down." Both Bartlein barrels
I said, "so what's a guy like me to do, with 100 loaded rounds with 67.4? Pull them or keep rocking on if there's no pressure?"
He's talking to the guy "down in the lab"....will edit with results, if any, soon
ETA: He came back from the Lab (ballistician is a Retriever perhaps?) and said that the new test barrel is really "tight". He said that means chamber but I wonder if he didn't mean bore too. Says most of their reamers are Manson, SAAMI spec. (So how is it tight?) Says they had "several factory guns come through with very tight chambers" so they wanted to make sure their load recs will accommodate all chambers, made them more conservative. In regard to "what do I do?" He says if your load is under pressure, and you went higher and you know where pressure is in YOUR barrel, just keep rolling with 67.4"
He also mentioned that their factory ammo tends to be "right below pressure"
So, this is interesting since all their original velocity numbers were unrealistic despite running way hotter than they're currently recommending. How will this 7PRC cartridge be received now that we have yet another disappointment and another downward revision in the speed data?
Shoulda stayed with 7RM.
His explanation is that "their original test barrel was at or slightly over pressure at 67.4, but recently they replaced their test barrel and got significantly higher pressures, so revised the loading down." Both Bartlein barrels
I said, "so what's a guy like me to do, with 100 loaded rounds with 67.4? Pull them or keep rocking on if there's no pressure?"
He's talking to the guy "down in the lab"....will edit with results, if any, soon
ETA: He came back from the Lab (ballistician is a Retriever perhaps?) and said that the new test barrel is really "tight". He said that means chamber but I wonder if he didn't mean bore too. Says most of their reamers are Manson, SAAMI spec. (So how is it tight?) Says they had "several factory guns come through with very tight chambers" so they wanted to make sure their load recs will accommodate all chambers, made them more conservative. In regard to "what do I do?" He says if your load is under pressure, and you went higher and you know where pressure is in YOUR barrel, just keep rolling with 67.4"
He also mentioned that their factory ammo tends to be "right below pressure"
So, this is interesting since all their original velocity numbers were unrealistic despite running way hotter than they're currently recommending. How will this 7PRC cartridge be received now that we have yet another disappointment and another downward revision in the speed data?
Shoulda stayed with 7RM.
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Imagine treating book loads as the bible rather than listening to the feedback your individual rifle is giving you.
You're overthinking this.
You're overthinking this.
No, I'm not overthinking anything.
I have NEVER in 35+ years of reloading ran a load that was more than 5% over max. I'm almost NEVER over book max, period. The book is not the end-all-be-all, but Hornady developed this load and they have far more sophisticated testing and monitoring equipment than me yanking on a bolt handle and looking for a glint on the case head in the sunlight.
This is a MAJOR reduction in max book charge and now it's significantly behind what I can do with 7RM.
I have NEVER in 35+ years of reloading ran a load that was more than 5% over max. I'm almost NEVER over book max, period. The book is not the end-all-be-all, but Hornady developed this load and they have far more sophisticated testing and monitoring equipment than me yanking on a bolt handle and looking for a glint on the case head in the sunlight.
This is a MAJOR reduction in max book charge and now it's significantly behind what I can do with 7RM.
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Well, it’s interesting that he said they adjusted the numbers because they received a new test barrel, since that implies that the proper load for pressure is barrel dependent. That statement alone makes me suspect all of their data and its applicability to my uses, since my barrel will always be different than their test barrel.
Something is definitely fishy in Denmark.
Why can’t you just believe what your barrel is telling you?
Have you used Gordon’s Reloading Tool or Quickload to see what they might come up with?
Something is definitely fishy in Denmark.
Why can’t you just believe what your barrel is telling you?
Have you used Gordon’s Reloading Tool or Quickload to see what they might come up with?
This is a fundamental truth of reloading. Any time you change components or component lots you are subject to changing P&V. The key hitters are primer, powder, and barrel, but all components involved can cause variation. Hence the suggestion to back down and work back up with any change, not to use loads for 1 gun in other guns without caution, etc.
Every P&V test barrel we get in gets calibrated for pressure and velocity off of reference ammunition. Shoot reference ammo, correct pressure and velocity off of what is published for that lot of reference ammo. That info stays tied to that barrel and has to be input into the Oehler system to get accurate readings. The vast majority of our P&V barrels are chambered by the manufacturer (Bartlein, HS, etc.) and come to us complete.
I'm not familiar with the 7PRC (I work in the bullet department, not handbook/ammo) so I can't give you particulars of why the handbook changed, but I've seen powder-lot changes cause swings that big or bigger (% wise) before in other cartridges that we load. It all adds up. The barrel, the humidity, the primer, the powder lot, etc... It usually doesn't, but it definitely has the capability to swing much further than most people realize.
There are several reasons for why one barrel can produce more or less pressure than the next with the same ammo... Some instances what I'm about to say do not apply but...
IN GENERAL...
Assuming the same barrel length and a quality barrel, it's usually okay to load to published load data velocity. In other words if the published velocity for 41.0gr of H4350 is 2700fps but your rifle with the same length barrel is only getting 2640fps, you can probably load up to 2700fps and be fine. However, if at any point along that you start seeing pressure signs, back off.
IN GENERAL...
Assuming the same barrel length and a quality barrel, it's usually okay to load to published load data velocity. In other words if the published velocity for 41.0gr of H4350 is 2700fps but your rifle with the same length barrel is only getting 2640fps, you can probably load up to 2700fps and be fine. However, if at any point along that you start seeing pressure signs, back off.
I'm interested in other examples with other cartridges where there was a 5% reduction in the max charge between editions of a manual
Thank you. That speaks to my point, which while not directly stated, was that we all have to do our own due diligence when loading and not place too much store in the exact published numbers.
Edit: the published numbers are there to give us a safe starting point in load work up.
26" 7PRC real world testing - looking for the same pressure indicators as you would.
I have played with more than a couple of the bullet combos from testing in about 20 different barrels/rifles now. The only trend I've noticed is that my lots of N565 and Retumbo were a bit fast, I mention it in the full write up on tscustomsrifles.
I just completed a barrel chop down test with the 7PRC. For those of you wondering what length to run, I have a full write up in the blog and also started a youtube channel. This barrel was the same barrel that was used in the cartridge guide, which should make extrapolating data easier if you're not running a 26".
I have a lot more in the works with the 7PRC, but I'm open to ideas so feel free to DM me.
Blog: https://tscustomsrifles.com/blog
Video:
I have a lot more in the works with the 7PRC, but I'm open to ideas so feel free to DM me.
Blog: https://tscustomsrifles.com/blog
Video:
Every barrel and chamber is slightly different.
A worn throat in a test barrel will not be the same as when it was new test barrel... and take more powder to achieve the same velocity when it was new.
I put Hornadys max load in a 308 win with 208 eldm with w 748 and promptly blew a primer.
That max load was reduced in the next Annual Manual.
Warning do not go by programs like Quick Load as your max pressure guide.
Its on your QL program start up page.
Go by tested printed manual load data.
I shoot lots of wildcats and high pressure cartridges like the 80,000 psi Steel and hybrid cases.
Quick Load is only a computor simulation guide, based on powder inputs at the time of production.
Powders have fence post guidelines, like go and no- go gauges.
None of it is exact.
I pull quite a few bullets on QL predictions as to where they say pressure will be encountered and where it actually is encountered.
The pressure Hornady got is likely similar to the pressure in your rifle especially if it isn't wore out in the throat.
Something you should probably heed to be content with brass and primer pocket longevity.
One can only push it a little bit before you get short brass life, operating above the designed pressure.
I guess that's up to the individual to decide.
Hornady data does some weird stuff sometimes, I tried some Staball Match loads in 6mm ARC this weekend that Hornady data has running at the same velocities as the top LVR loads.Having shot a good bit of both powders, I was pretty sure how things were going to end, and yep STB-M was a full 200 fps slower than LVR.... must be that tight test barrel kicking in again, but only for the Staball loads.
Manuals are a guide at best, and in some cases don't do a great job at that, it's also worth cross referencing with Hodgdon, which in the case of 7mm PRC seems to match up to reality a little better for me.
Manuals are a guide at best, and in some cases don't do a great job at that, it's also worth cross referencing with Hodgdon, which in the case of 7mm PRC seems to match up to reality a little better for me.
Powder choice recommendations for a first time reloader for 7PRC.
Having loaded pallets of straight wall, I am green to bottleneck reloading. My first and only 7mm has a 24" CF Bartlein 1/8. Eagerly waiting on the Lapua brass offerings end of this year. It would be even nicer if Berger made some loaded to get a baseline for my new rifle.
I plan on using Bergers 180-190. Primarily for Western hunting and target.
After reading this entire thread. I see the powder choices are pretty vast. H1000, N570, N560, N565, Retumbo, RL26
. I'm sure I'm missing a bunch more.
I know each barrel is different and likes what it likes. How does one go about powder choices? Do you guys buy a few 1lb'ers and go from there? Appreciate any recommendations for an all around performer.
Having loaded pallets of straight wall, I am green to bottleneck reloading. My first and only 7mm has a 24" CF Bartlein 1/8. Eagerly waiting on the Lapua brass offerings end of this year. It would be even nicer if Berger made some loaded to get a baseline for my new rifle.
I plan on using Bergers 180-190. Primarily for Western hunting and target.
After reading this entire thread. I see the powder choices are pretty vast. H1000, N570, N560, N565, Retumbo, RL26
. I'm sure I'm missing a bunch more.I know each barrel is different and likes what it likes. How does one go about powder choices? Do you guys buy a few 1lb'ers and go from there? Appreciate any recommendations for an all around performer.
I've been shooting mostly Ramshot Grand for a while and really like it for the PRC. For me velocities are up there with RL26, but it's reasonably priced, temp stable and actually available.
Brownells has no Hazmat fees this week, so it might not be a bad time to grab a lb or two of a few different powders to try.
Brownells has no Hazmat fees this week, so it might not be a bad time to grab a lb or two of a few different powders to try.
Powder choice recommendations for a first time reloader for 7PRC.
Having loaded pallets of straight wall, I am green to bottleneck reloading. My first and only 7mm has a 24" CF Bartlein 1/8. Eagerly waiting on the Lapua brass offerings end of this year. It would be even nicer if Berger made some loaded to get a baseline for my new rifle.
I plan on using Bergers 180-190. Primarily for Western hunting and target.
After reading this entire thread. I see the powder choices are pretty vast. H1000, N570, N560, N565, Retumbo, RL26
I know each barrel is different and likes what it likes. How does one go about powder choices? Do you guys buy a few 1lb'ers and go from there? Appreciate any recommendations for an all around performer.
Yes you’d probably want to buy several 1 lb cans to try. Depending on where you purchase them, it may be hard to find same lot number after you’re done working up loads though.
I load for several rifles so already have 8 lb jugs of 1000, 565 and 560 and several lbs of Retumbo so it was easy.
With ADG brass, F215M primer and a 175 elite hunter I found good velocity and consistency around:
69-70 grains H1000
69-70 grains Retumbo
68-69 grains N565
65-66 grains N560 but with F210M
Appreciate your findings. Yes I hear you on the lot numbers. I think I'll start with H1000, N570, and a couple more from everyones suggestions. I also se RL26 as an option, if available. Looking forward to the landing on a combo where I can get the legal limits of 8lb'ers
Appreciate your findings. Yes I hear you on the lot numbers. I think I'll start with H1000, N570, and a couple more from everyones suggestions. I also se RL26 as an option, if available. Looking forward to the landing on a combo where I can get the legal limits of 8lb'ers
Hodgdon and VV are far superior to Alliant. To be honest you could have just bought h1k and shot that. It’s never going to steer you wrong in magnum
