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Hunting & Fishing “Need” a new hunting rifle – Deer & Elk

Scottie15

- 0 -
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 12, 2010
108
15
Sacto, CA
Background: I’ve gotten bored with the 9.2 lb 300 Win Mag I have been hunting with for the last 5 or so years. I have been shooting the 6.5 Creedmoor in the AR platform for the last 2 years at paper, I really like the cartridge for on targets. The AR is too heavy (~15 lbs) to lug around most of the areas I hunt. I have a 308, but it’s pretty heavy too. I usually hunt CA, either CO or ID for deer and elk. The last 3 animals I have shot have been 1 shot DRTs with the 300 WM at between 200 and 330 yards, last two were right through the heart. I am comfortable shooting the 300 at game out to about 450 if I have a stable platform. Most of the areas I come across animals won’t require a shot longer than 350 yards.

I am conservative with what shots I will take at animals. Typically, I have been a believer in the “hope for the best, plan for the worst” in terms of caliber selection, hence the 300 WM. I am starting to think, for my application (distance and species) that the 300 WM is overkill. I also want a lighter weight rifle.

My goal: I would like a light (<8 lbs scoped) rifle in a 6.5 or 30 caliber. I’m already loading for the 6.5 CM, .308 Win, and 300 WM. I would like a caliber capable of taking deer to 600 yards given appropriate conditions. I am interested in a 6.5 CM, 6.5x55, .264 WM (hesitant about his one…), 6.5x284 (know nothing except its reputation as a BR ctg), .308 Win or ?? I would like to go with something a little outside of the ordinary 30-06 308 300 WSM window. I’ve almost said F*** it and bought a .270 Tikka T3 Lite the last few times I have been shopping… Having written this, I seem to be most interested in a 6.5 cal rifle, but would like to hear any thoughts ya’ll have. Thanks.

Questions:
1. 6.5 CM vs 6.5x55 – how similar are these rounds when the 6.5x55 is loaded to pressures that could be tolerated in a modern rifle? I understand that a lot, if not all, of the load data in my books reflects pressures deemed safe for older rifles. Could the 6.5x55 have any advantage on the 6.5 CM when loading longer/heavier bullets?
2. Any other 6.5 cartridges I should be looking at?
3. What 30 caliber cartridges would be fun/interesting to load for?
4. I would like suggestions on what rifles I might find off the rack that fall into these calibers… Otherwise I’ll have to rebarrel something.
 
I am a firm believer in shot placement trumps caliber, but I want both shot placement and caliber. For elk, (if I were to hunt elk, I have no desire) I would want a 30 caliber of some sort. I would lean on my 300wsm Browning A bolt. It's about a 7-8 lb rifle. The bare minimum I would go with would be the 270. Another to consider is the 7mm Rem Mag. I know the 7mm is capable. My buddy took 7 African plains game with it. Including a zebra at 275 yds. Dropped it in its tracks. Nothing exotic, just basic calibers for me. That's all I got.
 
take a look at kimbers new light weight rifle, I cant remember the name of it but I do remember it weights in at 5 pounds with out a scope they chamber it in 284 Ackley which has about the same ballistics as a 7 mag. I have two newer kimbers a Montana in 300sm and a 308 they both shoot one hole groups with reloads I may be lucky to have gotten two good ones but I am sold. I will buy the one I am talking about when I get around to it.
 
I was pondering this same topic about a year and a half ago. My solution was a Tikka T3 lite. I've hunted the rifle several times now, and have no regrets. I've never bothered to weigh mine, but I've never felt overly burdened when carrying it either.

Caliber is a completely separate question, and having never hunted your area, I don't feel qualified to comment on that choice.
 
My uncle brought down a deer at around 350ish with 6.5x284 using nosler accubonds. Very effective results. He built his on a remington 700 long action.
 
I was pondering this same topic about a year and a half ago. My solution was a Tikka T3 lite. I've hunted the rifle several times now, and have no regrets. I've never bothered to weigh mine, but I've never felt overly burdened when carrying it either.

Caliber is a completely separate question, and having never hunted your area, I don't feel qualified to comment on that choice.
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I agree with Dog N Jeep, I picked up a Tikka a few yrs back after seeing how my buddies shot. His is a 308 mine is a 708 and both are quite accurate for factory rifles. Both are T3 lite *stainless balance is great its light an very easy to carry. Pick the caliber you like/want and enjoy. I think I'd go with an 7mag or 06 given what your looking for...
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An of course...a hide vendor has'm:

Tikka T3 Lite Stainless Rifles - T3 Stainless Rifles - EuroOptic.com
 
Why not buy an off the rack Tikka T3 in 300wsm, have it barreled to a 6.5, get RCBS to make the dies?

I am another believer in the T3 for off the rack hunting rifle. I am not a huge 30cal lover, its Americas diameter but I believe there are better, 338 and 284. Me, I would go 7.08 off the rack. No experience with 6.5 so...

I first look for a rifle that I can carry for days up and down to allow me to do my job, then bullet with Partition as my preference, then the caliber last. If I can tote it I burn less energy so I can hopefully place the bullet where it needs to go, then then bullet takes over to create a wound channel, can only kill an animal so dead so caliber to me not so important. 243 kill moose every year at normal hunting ranges as do 7.08 and 416s.

Probably no help but
 
I hunt with 6.5x284 and have taken deer to 400 yds. Never shot at any any farther but wouldn't hesitate to shoot one at 600 if conditions were favoroble. I have the savage 111 longerange hunter and it is a tack driver. I shoot the 140 bergers and they do a great job dropping game at distance. As for a hunting rifle you shouldn't have to worry about burnout on the barrel. Gun with scope weighs about 11 pounds. I think savage also makes a lightweight hunter in this caliber as well.
 
If you are ready to get something a little less "off the rack", look at a Rifles Inc 300 WM.



I took one to Africa, and it was great out to 400+ yards. Very light, easy to carry all day, and with TSX, hammers the animal when its time to shoot. Weight is a little over five pounds, without optics. You'd think it kicks like a mule, but it is very soft, with the muzzle brake.


That one is scoped with an SFP Zeiss 6x20. I'd recommend the same scope, but in 4x14 instead, I've been using a lot of those in preference to the 6x20. It's smaller and lighter as well as being more hunter appropriate, 20 is too much for most hunting, and 14x will get you well out past reasonable hunting distances.
 
If you are ready to get something a little less "off the rack", look at a Rifles Inc 300 WM.



I took one to Africa, and it was great out to 400+ yards. Very light, easy to carry all day, and with TSX, hammers the animal when its time to shoot. Weight is a little over five pounds, without optics. You'd think it kicks like a mule, but it is very soft, with the muzzle brake.


That one is scoped with an SFP Zeiss 6x20. I'd recommend the same scope, but in 4x14 instead, I've been using a lot of those in preference to the 6x20. It's smaller and lighter as well as being more hunter appropriate, 20 is too much for most hunting, and 14x will get you well out past reasonable hunting distances.


Looks like a great trip! What grain ttsx are you shooting?
 
Looks like a great trip! What grain ttsx are you shooting?

Not TTSX, but the older MRX, those have a tungsten core in the aft part of the bullete, a little shorter, denser round. They quit making those last year. I have a couple boxes of the TTSX 200 grain waiting to be loaded up. The regular TSX are OK in the 180 size too, I just got a deal on about 30 boxes of the MRX a few years ago.

Went into Gander, saw MRX 180's on sale for $29.95. Bought all of them!
 
Hard to argue with the Win. Model 70 Featherweight in 270 or '06. Mine is in 270 Win. Accurate and light weight. Ammo can be found anywhere. More then capable of taking game up to elk and moose. Not a whole lot of recoil.

Its been doing the job for a lot of years.

Not tacticool, but I'm not into tacticool anyway.

Antelope%202%20%20%2010-1.JPG
 
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I just bought a Tikka T3 Light Stainless in 270 Win and I like it a lot. I was looking for a rifle with almost the same specs as you and settled on the 270. There are not many shelf rifles chambered in 6.5 calibers other than Savage and if you compare without bias, the 270 will do everything a 6.5 Creedmoor or 6.5-284 will do and then some, in regards to hunting. It's just not as "vogue". The Tikka shoots very well also, most 3 shot groups right around the MOA advertised with 130 grain SST.
 
I'd go with a 270 or 30-06 also. If you want something unique - 280AI.
If you want to spend:
$600 Tikka T3 lite
$1000 Kimber Montana
$1200 Forbes rifle (if you're not familiar - these are definitely worth looking into)
$2800 Ultra-Light Arms
 
30-06 I feel is the best round for both deer and Elk. Best all around cartridge.


Tapatalk2
 
My deer and elk T3 lite in 30-06, antelope T3 lite in 7mm mag. They are great rifles out of the box with a Sako bbl, DBM, and great trigger. If you have a chance to really take a close look at a Tikka, you can see the craftsmanship and attention to detail of all the parts, especially how tight, yet smooth the parts fit together. For something lite and classic, I picked up a M70 Featherweight in 7x57 (this year), that is one nice rifle. As for the 6.5, cant argue with the ballistics of the 6.5, but at close range a 7, 270, or 30 will do anything you need in the lower 48.
 
It's hard to go wrong with a Tikka T3 Lite. You can get them for around $500 and the action is smooth like glass. I picked one up in .270 Win after my buddy got one a couple years ago. Both of our rifles shoot sub MOA to 600 yards...and probably farther.

We both handload and his hunting load is Varget (not sure of the charge) with a 130 gr. Nosler E-Tip and mine is 60.0 gr. of H4831SC with a 130 gr. Barnes T-TSX. We both shoot 58.3 gr of H4831SC under a 135 SMK for long range target work. That's right, I said it! A .270 for long range stuff. As a matter of fact, the reason I bought mine was because he brought his to an informal long range match where guys had tactical and BR rifles you know the ones where they have custom rifles and $2000 + scopes. He was able to hang with all of us and finished in the middle of the pack. Had no problems hitting steel at 887 yards and a hit a 6" gong at 600 every time with a Nikon Buckmaster BDC scope.

We all know the .270 Win is more than adequate enough for deer and Elk and is extremely fast and flat. I don't think you would be disappointed if you went this route.

If you want a caliber that's a little more "exotic" check out the 280 Ackley Improved.
 
JUst remember, as a general rule of thought. You should have 2000 pounds at impact for elk for a humane kill. 600 yds is a FAR stretch! 9lbs for a rifle, in a good cartridge is about right for me. Anything lighter than 8 lbs,and recoil might become unpleasant. I dont think your going to fit the bill with anything less than a .30 cal
Have you tried shedding some weight on your rifle?
 
30/06 will do all you need if 30 cal. is your preference. It will and has been doing it for over 100 yrs. now. Animals are still the same as they were 100 yrs. ago. Only the rifles have changed.
Magnums are unpleasant to shoot. 30/06 is very managable and easier on your shoulder. Just pick any good bullet from 180 gr. and up,you will be OK. Ammo is easy to find also if you don't reload. One other thing, i disagree with the 2000 lb's. of ME for ELK. I have seen them taken with the little .243. Bullet placement is much more important. A bad hit with any cartridge is a bad hit and results in a slow and painful death for the animal. ............ SEMPER FI!
 
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JUst remember, as a general rule of thought. You should have 2000 pounds at impact for elk for a humane kill. 600 yds is a FAR stretch! 9lbs for a rifle, in a good cartridge is about right for me. Anything lighter than 8 lbs,and recoil might become unpleasant. I dont think your going to fit the bill with anything less than a .30 cal
Have you tried shedding some weight on your rifle?

One other thing, i disagree with the 2000 lb's. of ME for ELK. I have seen them taken with the little .243. Bullet placement is much more important. A bad hit with any cartridge is a bad hit and results in a slow and painful death for the animal. ............ SEMPER FI!

I will have to agree with Sargesniper on this one. 2000 ft/lbs of energy is a lot and not even a 300 Win Mag with 200 gr. or even 180 gr. bullets can sustain that much energy to or much past 300 yards. Elk are commonly killed ethically by hunters out to and beyond 500 yards by .270, 7mm, 30's, and bigger calibers...even smaller, and none of them can deliver 2000 ft/lbs of energy at that distance. Shot placement and bullet construction are the primary factors in an ethical kill. Bullets kill through tissue destruction. If you doubt that then why are thousands of elk, and many other animals, killed every year with broadheads on the end of arrows? You know damn well that arrow is not producing anywhere close to 2000 ft/lbs of energy at impact, but yet they are still killed ethically. It's tissue destruction. Oh, and Jack O'Connor might have a thing or two to say about killing elk with someting less than a .30 cal.

I don't understand the mentality that says you need some huge magnum caliber producing massive amounts of velocity and energy to bring down an elk. Many, many elk have been dropped by the venerable 30-30. If we continue along these lines of thinking, where will we be in another 100 years? Will we need a M119 Howitzer to "ethically" kill an elk? Just stick to what has worked for the past 100 + years and you will be fine.
 
If you are ready to get something a little less "off the rack", look at a Rifles Inc 300 WM.

Good suggestion MikeeB... I've shot a couple of Mr. Webernick's rifles in 300 WM and been impressed. I'm holding off on getting a Rifles Inc until I figure out what caliber I want, kind of why I was asking about the various non-standard calibers. Right now I'm looking at getting something in a less expensive rifle first and making sure I like the cartridge and it can fit my needs.

45.308 - who makes barrels that I could install on a Tikka? I did a quick google search but didn't find anything.
 
general rule...Have you tried shedding some weight on your rifle?

I generally agree with the "general rule" you refer to, but think 1500 is a more realistic guideline for a decent shooter with a sufficient caliber... good reminder for most reading this.

To shed any weight I'd have to rebarrel or restock the 300. At this point, I'd rather just buy a new rifle since the 300 shoots great with the TTSX's and has plenty of life left. Winchester magnums are just heavy out of the box with the long barrel and all.

Can you say 300 Rem Ultra. That's all you need, game over.

That's the opposite direction than where I want to go! Smaller cartridge than the 300 WM. That 300 Rem Ultra is a powder hog!
 
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Good suggestion MikeeB... I've shot a couple of Mr. Webernick's rifles in 300 WM and been impressed. I'm holding off on getting a Rifles Inc until I figure out what caliber I want, kind of why I was asking about the various non-standard calibers. Right now I'm looking at getting something in a less expensive rifle first and making sure I like the cartridge and it can fit my needs.

Not a pimp for Lex W, but... I do have 3 of his sticks, a 243 heavy barrel, a 308 and a 300WM. I also bought BIL a 300WM for Christmas one year. He's a good hard working guy, but the cost is beyond his ability. I had an extra spot on a shooting class once, invited him along, he had equipment problems ( almost everyone does), and I had my 300 along with plenty ammo. He was a little afraid ( Mikee.... that is a 300, and it is soooo light, the kick.. aggggghhhhh!), but after he shot it, fell in love with it. He was thinking to sell all his rifles and just buy one of those.

At the end of the trip ( we had been hunting all week also), he topped it off with a great 400 yard shot on an auodad, waiting patiently for his shot for about 45 minutes, with one of the guys over his shoulder, talking him thru it. So I talked to my wife, talked to Lex, had a good donor action, and got to make his day a few months later. Only rifle he shoots now.

Point to the story is, by the time you mess about with a couple "regular" rifles, you spend enough, that you could own one really special rifle.

Other point I'll throw in here, for hunting, use a caliber you can find ammo for. If you go enough, one day, you'll need some more, or need some to replace the box you forgot, don't lie, we've all done it. If it is a 30 cal ( and globally, that is better than a 6.5, 7 or 270), you can always find 30.06 and 300WM. Anywhere I have ever hunted, you could beg borrow or obtain those. I love my 6.5CM also, but doubt I'll ever take to Africa.

Also, the "rule" we use for energy, is four times body weight in ft pounds. For a 200 pound WT, 800ft pounds on target is minimum. That is still pretty light. Shoot enough steel at distance and the authority that any 300 hits with is greatly increased over lesser calibers, and is readily apparent on the target. 243 and 6.5 at 800++ is tink, 300 is Clang!
 
Also, the "rule" we use for energy, is four times body weight in ft pounds. For a 200 pound WT, 800ft pounds on target is minimum. That is still pretty light. Shoot enough steel at distance and the authority that any 300 hits with is greatly increased over lesser calibers, and is readily apparent on the target. 243 and 6.5 at 800++ is tink, 300 is Clang!

The four times body weight "rule" collapses on itself when you start talking about animals like Eland, Cape Buffalo, and bigger stuff. A mature male Eland can be 1300 lbs and a Cape Buffalo up to 2000 lbs. How many shouldered rifle cartridges can produce 8000 ft/lbs of energy? The 500 NE can produce around 5000 ft/lbs and I don't think anyone would argue that cartridge is ineffective on any of the largest African game.

So again...shot placement and bullet construction is what is important, not some arbitrary energy number. Arrows, at best will produce 55 ft/lbs of energy. I guess nobody told the billions of animals that have been killed since the beginning of time by bow and arrow that they didn't need to die because the arrow didn't transfer four times the animal’s body weight in energy. Tissue destruction is what kills. Please don't get caught up in all the energy hype. A .22 LR can kill just about anything with a well placed shot.
 
I cannot argue the point about the arrows.

The "rule" is not intended beyond North American animals, one of the most respected African PH/ivory hunters John "Pondoro" Taylor, once killed an elephant with a 22 on a bet. Not what you OUGHT to use, but under the right conditions, it did work,once.

I also agree with you about shot placement. We shot over 80 WT one weekend in a culling exercise, 4 shooters, 2 teams, working together ( eliminates "bad" shoots, immature bucks/wrong animal). Everyone shot same caliber, 12 different bullets, all very trained shooters. Our intended range was minumum 400 yards, longest kill 725. Only two animals lost, most were DRT, one bullet failure, but animal recovered. Both of the lost animals, were shot w same bullet. Conclusion, shot placement was more important than bullet, unless you were shooting that "no so good" bullet.

I'll tell you though, I've shot a LOT of animals, I MUCH prefer how they drop right there, with the 300 or 375 stuff. I routinely carry a 6.5 creedmoor suppressed at the ranch, whacked a bunch of varmints and culls with it, out to way past where is is ethical to shoot non-varmints, non-pigs. But that is my place, my rules, if I was paying to hunt in Africa for instance, I like big holes in my critters. They run less and hurt you less. Costs less too, you pay for wounded not recovered animals. Like I said, I like my 6.5, but.... if it is serious hunting bidness, gimme something that starts with a minimum of "3" in the caliber.

If it is dangerous game we are hunting, I like things that start with "4".
 
Background: I’ve gotten bored with the 9.2 lb 300 Win Mag I have been hunting with for the last 5 or so years. I have been shooting the 6.5 Creedmoor in the AR platform for the last 2 years at paper, I really like the cartridge for on targets. The AR is too heavy (~15 lbs) to lug around most of the areas I hunt. I have a 308, but it’s pretty heavy too. I usually hunt CA, either CO or ID for deer and elk. The last 3 animals I have shot have been 1 shot DRTs with the 300 WM at between 200 and 330 yards, last two were right through the heart. I am comfortable shooting the 300 at game out to about 450 if I have a stable platform. Most of the areas I come across animals won’t require a shot longer than 350 yards.

I am conservative with what shots I will take at animals. Typically, I have been a believer in the “hope for the best, plan for the worst” in terms of caliber selection, hence the 300 WM. I am starting to think, for my application (distance and species) that the 300 WM is overkill. I also want a lighter weight rifle.

My goal: I would like a light (<8 lbs scoped) rifle in a 6.5 or 30 caliber. I’m already loading for the 6.5 CM, .308 Win, and 300 WM. I would like a caliber capable of taking deer to 600 yards given appropriate conditions. I am interested in a 6.5 CM, 6.5x55, .264 WM (hesitant about his one…), 6.5x284 (know nothing except its reputation as a BR ctg), .308 Win or ?? I would like to go with something a little outside of the ordinary 30-06 308 300 WSM window. I’ve almost said F*** it and bought a .270 Tikka T3 Lite the last few times I have been shopping… Having written this, I seem to be most interested in a 6.5 cal rifle, but would like to hear any thoughts ya’ll have. Thanks.

Questions:
1. 6.5 CM vs 6.5x55 – how similar are these rounds when the 6.5x55 is loaded to pressures that could be tolerated in a modern rifle? I understand that a lot, if not all, of the load data in my books reflects pressures deemed safe for older rifles. Could the 6.5x55 have any advantage on the 6.5 CM when loading longer/heavier bullets?
2. Any other 6.5 cartridges I should be looking at?
3. What 30 caliber cartridges would be fun/interesting to load for?
4. I would like suggestions on what rifles I might find off the rack that fall into these calibers… Otherwise I’ll have to rebarrel something.
The 6.5x55 has been used in Europe for a longer period of time
that most people live. It has been and still is used on Moose. That is a very large and tough animal.
Recoil is light and the rifles can be had in a lightweight platform without much concern about recoil.
The cartridge is very accurate also. Barrel wear will not be a problem either. That cannot be said
about the 6.5x284 or the 264 WM. I have personal experience with the 6.5x284 and can tell you it is a barrel burner
if you shoot it very much. It is very accurate but not worth it to me.
A 280 Rem. would be an excellent choice if you like the .284" bore.
Shootin Elk and various Deer does not require a lot of horse power as some think. They can be taken cleanly
with smaller calibers. Shot placement and bullet construction are far more important. ........ SEMPER FI!
 
This topic has got me interested. I was planning on using my Model 70 Featherweight in 270 for Elk this year but maybe I should try an '06.

The only '06's I have are vintage rifles (M1, M1903A3, M1917, and a real heavy Model 70 Vietnam Era clone, and of course my M1903a4.

I think I'm gonna switch scopes on my 'A4. It has an old El Paso Weaver K 2.5, which would work except it's not sealed. Meaning it will probably fog.

So I think I'll put on one of my Weaver hunting scopes and use it for Elk.

I like and have had good luck with Hornady Inter-bonds, so I figure I'll load up some 180 IBs and take this old war horse after elk.

I was going to use it for deer, but I think I'll use my '98 Krag for deer and my 'A4 for elk.
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I will be sporting a new 257 wby mag this year with a 100 gr swift at 3650 fps running the numbers on it I think it will do the trick inside 500 yards it is still moving 2650+fps with 1550+ ft. Lbs. energy at that range. I realize this is only .257 which is .007 smaller than a .264 (6.5mm) and may as a result be "under gunned" on elk for some, compare this to an '06 with a 168 gr load that's been a go to for decades. But you can compare charts and numbers until you are cross eyed it still comes down to placement of the shot and bullet performance for the type of game and you will be going after. You will be hard pressed to find a flatter shooting round than the 257 wby (although some get close like the 264 win mag)and it fights wind pretty well due to its blazing speed, yes the b.c. could be higher. I have been down the 300 win mag road and inside of 300 yards was completely overkill and unnecessary for anything I hunt up to and including elk, in fact it was ruining meat on the exit side of animal if there was anything other than 100% broadside shot due to massive bruising and size of exit wound. My opinion is too many people rely on large magnum calibers rather than well placed shots for taking down game. If I get the itch to take a long range shot such as 600 plus I will step up in caliber and weight, but I would need a new hunting spot for that due to trees and terrain.
 
ive been looking into a 30-06AI lately. saw a load that carries a 180 NBT over 1800fps to 600 yards, NBTs are designed to expand at 1800fps or above. getting really close to the 300WM at those levels. a quality sporter barrel and a manners ultralight hunting stock would be sweet.
 
Before Beretta screwed everything up, they imported the T3 Lite in 6.5x55. I've got one and it's my favorite rifle. I like it more than my full custom long range rifle.
 
Any of the calibers listed in the op would be sufficient. S/A would keep the weight down.
I have witnessed the .257 weatherby used very effectively on Rocky Mountain elk. .270 works like a charm also.
I killed one bull with a 6.5x47 tsx with ok results. I will stick with a bonded lead bullet from now on. Tsx made a laser hole, with very little expansion. Bullet selection is equally important to the mix.
 
Any of the calibers listed in the op would be sufficient. S/A would keep the weight down.
I have witnessed the .257 weatherby used very effectively on Rocky Mountain elk. .270 works like a charm also.
I killed one bull with a 6.5x47 tsx with ok results. I will stick with a bonded lead bullet from now on. Tsx made a laser hole, with very little expansion. Bullet selection is equally important to the mix.
The .280 Rem. Mountain Rifle should not be overlooked for this op's needs. I have used it in CO.to take three Elk with the 160 gr. NOS. Partition bullet with good results. Only had to track one. Longest shot was taken at 285 yds. DRT. HAVE a good hunt. ............. SEMPER FI!