I'm running about 15 years too late but really feel the need to buy a couple ARs this year. I'm not interested in building one, definitely prefer to buy. The first one will be a 14.5" barreled 5.56. This rifle will be for defensive purposes but intend on using it out to 400 yards or so. I'll equip it with a red dot, magnifier and BUIS. This will not be a supressed firearm. Been looking for awhile and have narrowed it down to 2 choices, the Geissele Super Duty or complete upper and lowers from Compass Lake. Should I look at another manufacturer?
- Thread starter PrimoLuvr
- Start date
You're shopping in the premium rifle price range. Does your budget allow for duty-grade accessories (red-dot, magnifier, light, etc.)? Expect to spend $1,000-2000 in addition to the cost of the rifle depending on exactly how you kit it out (unless you go with budget-friendly accessories... then half that cost).
I recommend getting a sling, as well.
Specs-wise, Geissele is near the top of the pile when talking about a self-defense-worthy rifle. I don't know anything about Compass Lake, other than that the folks around here tend to recommend them.
Generally speaking, other brands that are considered "good to go" for self defense include (but are not limited to) this list:
KAC ($$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$)
LMT
Centurion Arms
Daniel Defense
BCM
FN
Sons of Liberty Gun Works
I have a Super Duty 11.5... I have very little experience behind it, mostly because it made a lack luster first impression on me (so I'm just not inclined to shoot it much). However, that's just my experience/opinion, which in this case, I don't even value very much (because it's based on such specific circumstances).
If timing matters (you want it sooner rather than later), it will probably narrow your options a bit, depending on whether you order it from the manufacturer or buy from a dealer's stock.
I recommend getting a sling, as well.
Specs-wise, Geissele is near the top of the pile when talking about a self-defense-worthy rifle. I don't know anything about Compass Lake, other than that the folks around here tend to recommend them.
Generally speaking, other brands that are considered "good to go" for self defense include (but are not limited to) this list:
KAC ($$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$)
LMT
Centurion Arms
Daniel Defense
BCM
FN
Sons of Liberty Gun Works
I have a Super Duty 11.5... I have very little experience behind it, mostly because it made a lack luster first impression on me (so I'm just not inclined to shoot it much). However, that's just my experience/opinion, which in this case, I don't even value very much (because it's based on such specific circumstances).
If timing matters (you want it sooner rather than later), it will probably narrow your options a bit, depending on whether you order it from the manufacturer or buy from a dealer's stock.
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I have a Compass Lake upper, which I really like. If choosing between these two I would say that the CLE will be more accurate (that's really what they are know for) and the Geissele will probably be more reliable/durable since it has some upgrades over mil spec like an enhance BCG. That's not to say that the CLE is unreliable or the Geissele will be inaccurate, it's just where each of these companies place their emphasis.
And with the Geissele, it is worth being patient. They tend to have a couple of awesome sales where they deeply discount their rifles and accessories. I think one is on Black Friday, but there are others, just not sure when. I will add that I have seen some complaints about Geissele's recent QC in this and other forums, so you might want to do a search. But I've personally never owned a Geissele rifle or an upper. I have bought parts from them (primarily triggers), including Count Blemula blemished parts, and have never had an issue.
And since you're looking at top tier rifles, I'd second Naaman's suggestions. I own or have owned LMT, KAC (but in 300BO), BCM and DD. All have been very solid and reliable rifles. Might throw LaRue in there as well. Known to be pretty accurate and I've never had any issues with mine.
And with the Geissele, it is worth being patient. They tend to have a couple of awesome sales where they deeply discount their rifles and accessories. I think one is on Black Friday, but there are others, just not sure when. I will add that I have seen some complaints about Geissele's recent QC in this and other forums, so you might want to do a search. But I've personally never owned a Geissele rifle or an upper. I have bought parts from them (primarily triggers), including Count Blemula blemished parts, and have never had an issue.
And since you're looking at top tier rifles, I'd second Naaman's suggestions. I own or have owned LMT, KAC (but in 300BO), BCM and DD. All have been very solid and reliable rifles. Might throw LaRue in there as well. Known to be pretty accurate and I've never had any issues with mine.
Super Duty is hard to beat for the money. I would look at G, LMT, Colt and BCM and pick the one you like the best. KAC is top tier but you can get 2 or 3 of the above mentioned for one of them.
Have owned or own just about everything under the sun, and sold off a ton of stuff in the last few years to consolidate.
G, BCM, Colt, KAC, LMT, Larue and some clone builds are whats worth keeping IMO.
Have owned or own just about everything under the sun, and sold off a ton of stuff in the last few years to consolidate.
G, BCM, Colt, KAC, LMT, Larue and some clone builds are whats worth keeping IMO.
geissele super duty fails to eject, fails to lock bolt back
11.5" geissele URGI with defective chamber, replacement is also defective
four geissele barrels fail to extract part 1
four geissele barrels fail to extract part 2
16" geissele barrel won't cycle
Having to Mortar brand new 11.5 URGI part 1
having to mortar brand new 11.5" URGI part 2
geissele 16" barrel short-stroking
problem with yet another geissele 16" super duty
geissele super duty won't reliably chamber rounds
geissele barrel won't cycle reliably part 1
geissele barrel won't cycle reliably part 2
geissele 11.5" won't cycle reliably without a suppressor
geissele gas port size issue
geissele barrel won't even unlock
geissele 14.5" URGI live round has to be mortared out of the chamber
brass stuck in chamber, loose barrel nut
...
Your average AR owner/shooter is a moron. Most of them fall in that category. I am not saying G can't put out something bad, but they have been through more testing than most comparable manufactures and have won ALOT of solicitations over the last few years to organizations/entities that shoot people in the face for a living. They have excellent customer service as well, so even if you got a lemon, they will make it right. Bill is a very honest and honorable man, who gives a ton back to the shooting sports. He probably donates $8-10K in guns and parts a month to local matches.
Totally agree. If you ever shoot a match at geisseles range there will be a ton of awesome stuff given away including a super duty rifle. Pretty awesome for a 1 day. I have a ton of their products and couldn't be happier with any of them. No experience with one of their complete rifles but i cant imagine it not being dependable
All.
Thank you for the replies. I should have done a little searching here about Geissele rifles.
I feel that I should have started this thread differently. I've been a competitive bullseye shooter for years and have had quite a few bolt guns rebarreled/accurized. I shoot 1911s in competition, all built by Chambers Custom. I don't say that out of pride but only because I want the most reliable and accurate equipment available. I've earned 2 distinguished badges and will be working on 3 more in the near future, work has slowed up my ability to compete the last few years. I do not subscribe to the philosophy of just buying something and when I can outshoot it then it's time for new equipment.
I've been leaning towards buying uppers and lowers from CLE primarily, most of my friends that shoot service matches or high power use them. But, wanted to know if I'm giving up anything major by going that route? That's why I've looked at Geissele, LMT, etc... already. The only benefit I see to buying other than CLE is ambidextrous controls and a chrome lined barrel (hopefully to slow throat erosion and extend barrel life). What direction would you guys go if looking for a 14.5" barreled rifle? I do appreciate the responses.
Thank you for the replies. I should have done a little searching here about Geissele rifles.
I feel that I should have started this thread differently. I've been a competitive bullseye shooter for years and have had quite a few bolt guns rebarreled/accurized. I shoot 1911s in competition, all built by Chambers Custom. I don't say that out of pride but only because I want the most reliable and accurate equipment available. I've earned 2 distinguished badges and will be working on 3 more in the near future, work has slowed up my ability to compete the last few years. I do not subscribe to the philosophy of just buying something and when I can outshoot it then it's time for new equipment.
I've been leaning towards buying uppers and lowers from CLE primarily, most of my friends that shoot service matches or high power use them. But, wanted to know if I'm giving up anything major by going that route? That's why I've looked at Geissele, LMT, etc... already. The only benefit I see to buying other than CLE is ambidextrous controls and a chrome lined barrel (hopefully to slow throat erosion and extend barrel life). What direction would you guys go if looking for a 14.5" barreled rifle? I do appreciate the responses.
Bravo Company 14.5” ELW Accuracy: A Quick Look
ELW stands for enhanced light-weight. This barrel is from Bravo Company’s cold-hammer forged series of barrels. The barrel has a “continuous taper” design with a smooth shoulder at the gas block journal, which reportedly improves barrel harmonics. This barrel has a mid-length gas system and a 0.625” gas block journal.
According to Bravo Company, this barrel has a stripped weight of 1 pound, 5 ounces. For comparison, a Colt 14.5” M4 barrel has a stripped weight of 1 pound, 9 ounces.
BCM 14.5” ELW
Colt 14.5” M4 barrel. (not stripped)
I purchased this barrel as part of a BCM factory assembled upper receiver group with the MCMR 13” free-float hand guard. The barrel has BCM’s pinned and welded A2X flash hider.
Shooting off-the-bench at a distance of 100 yards (using a high magnification scope), this barrel produced a 10-shot group that has an extreme spread of 0.946” with a mean radius of 0.33”.
….
Colt M4A1 SOCOM Barrel Accuracy: Another Look
In 2010, I posted one of the first publicly available, in-depth accuracy evaluations of a Colt M4A1 SOCOM barrel. At that time, the Colt SOCOM barrel was relatively new to the civilian market. Many people, including myself, were pleasantly surprised by the level of accuracy/precision that I obtained with the SOCOM barrel; particularly since it is a chrome-lined, NATO chambered “military-grade” barrel. Since that time, the Colt M4A1 SOCOM barrel has developed a significant appreciation amongst AR-15 enthusiasts.
The M4A1 SOCOM barrel
Recently, I assembled another upper receiver group based on the Colt M4A1 SOCOM barrel. This new build features a Colt cage-code marked M4 upper receiver, a Colt “C” marked bolt carrier group and a 13” Geissele MK14 M-LOK free-float hand-guard.
A genuine Colt M4A1 SOCOM barrel is 14.5” long and has a medium contour; it is not an HBAR. The barrel has a 5.56mm NATO chamber and a 1:7” twist.
Colt SOCOM barrel
Colt HBAR
A genuine SOCOM barrel has the typical M4 circumferential cut-out located approximately 1.4” forward of the gas block for the attachment of an M203, as well as rectangular shaped cut-outs underneath the hand-guards on the port and starboard sides of the barrel, located approximately 1.4” aft of the gas block, for the same reason. The gas port on a genuine SOCOM barrel has a diameter of 0.062” and the barrel employs a carbine-length gas system.
The SOCOM barrel has a stripped weight of 1 pound, 14 ounces. That is only 2 ounces heavier than the ubiquitous 16” government profile barrel found on the Colt 6920.
Colt SOCOM barrel
Colt 6920 barrel
The stripped weight of the SOCOM barrel is 5 ounces heavier than the stripped weight of the standard Colt 14.5” M4 barrel. The pic below shows the difference between the standard M4 barrel and the SOCOM barrel. From the gas block journal forward, the two barrels are identical
SOCOM barrel on top, standard barrel on bottom
The next pic is a close-up comparing the two barrels in the area between the chamber and the gas block journal, showing you were the extra weight is added.
The date-code on my original SOCOM barrel was “11/03” and the date-code on my newer SOCOM barrel is “02/18”
My original SOCOM barrel hand an “F-marked” front sight base. Colt no longer stamps an “F” on their front sight bases, but their newer front sight bases maintain the length of 1.98” from the top of the barrel to the shelf for the front sight post.
My original SOCOM barrel was stamped:
“C MP 5.56 NATO 1/7”
The newer SOCOM barrel is stamped with Colt’s cage code.
“13629 M P 5.56 NATO 1/7”
Both of these SOCOM barrels have the “O” stamp near the chamber portion of the barrel, indicating the barrel has a chrome-lined chamber and bore. Naturally, the M4A1 SOCOM barrel has M4 feed ramps.
Accuracy Is Final
In 2010, my original SOCOM barrel with the “11/03” date-code produced a 10-shot group fired from a distance of 100 yards that had an extreme spread of 0.90”. That group was fired from my bench-rest set-up using match-grade hand-loads and a high magnification scope.
My newer SOCOM barrel with the “02/18” date-code produced a 10-shot group fired from a distance of 100 yards that had an extreme spread of 0.93”. This group was fired off of sand-bags using match-grade hand-loads and a high magnification scope.
. . . .
Noveske 14.5” CHF Barrel Accuracy
The 14.5” N4 barrel was tested in the same manner as described above. Three 10-shot groups fired from 100 yards using match grade hand-loads had extreme spreads of:
1.029”
1.360”
1.275”
for a 10-shot group average extreme spread of 1.22”. As above, I over-layed the three 10-shot groups on each other using RSI Shooting lab to form a 30-shot composite group. The mean radius for that composite group was 0.37”.
...
Additional info. is helpful. Sounds like you're going to want an AR that you can count on to be accurate. There's a reason the high power guys you know lean towards CLE - they are among the most accurate AR's you can buy. And they are consistently accurate, whereas some of the other guys will occasionally turn out real tack drivers, but will also have some real dogs. And with CLE you can specify barrel length, twist rate, type of chamber and even what blank it will be built on. I have an 18" upper with a Krieger barrel and although I lack the consistency of someone like Molon, who is able to repeatedly produce outstanding 10 shot groups, I can get sub MOA 5 shot groups with some regularity, using commercial ammo. I have no doubt a more talented shooter would be able to shrink those groups.
You might also want to look at White Oak Armory. They are also known for very accurate rifles. And I know people also love JP Enterprises rifles, but I have no personal experience with them. But, since you have the budget for a top tier rifle, they would be worth a look.
As to barrel life, yes with a stainless barrel you will find that accuracy starts falling off after 4-6,000 rounds. Just ask the high power guys how frequently they swap out the barrels on their rifles. But you should just think of it as a consumable part, just like you have to replace the tires on your car.
Finally, I shoot lefty, so ambidextrous controls are a must for me. But no matter what rifle you buy, you can replace the stock safety and charging handle with an ambidextrous one is 3-4 minutes. A Radian ambidextrous safety (which IMHO are the best) will cost you $45-50.
You might also want to look at White Oak Armory. They are also known for very accurate rifles. And I know people also love JP Enterprises rifles, but I have no personal experience with them. But, since you have the budget for a top tier rifle, they would be worth a look.
As to barrel life, yes with a stainless barrel you will find that accuracy starts falling off after 4-6,000 rounds. Just ask the high power guys how frequently they swap out the barrels on their rifles. But you should just think of it as a consumable part, just like you have to replace the tires on your car.
Finally, I shoot lefty, so ambidextrous controls are a must for me. But no matter what rifle you buy, you can replace the stock safety and charging handle with an ambidextrous one is 3-4 minutes. A Radian ambidextrous safety (which IMHO are the best) will cost you $45-50.
Thank you for taking the time to share that. Are you recommending a Colt SOCOM rifle with a different handguard like was mentioned at the top?Bravo Company 14.5” ELW Accuracy: A Quick Look
ELW stands for enhanced light-weight. This barrel is from Bravo Company’s cold-hammer forged series of barrels. The barrel has a “continuous taper” design with a smooth shoulder at the gas block journal, which reportedly improves barrel harmonics. This barrel has a mid-length gas system and a 0.625” gas block journal.
According to Bravo Company, this barrel has a stripped weight of 1 pound, 5 ounces. For comparison, a Colt 14.5” M4 barrel has a stripped weight of 1 pound, 9 ounces.
BCM 14.5” ELW
Colt 14.5” M4 barrel. (not stripped)
I purchased this barrel as part of a BCM factory assembled upper receiver group with the MCMR 13” free-float hand guard. The barrel has BCM’s pinned and welded A2X flash hider.
Shooting off-the-bench at a distance of 100 yards (using a high magnification scope), this barrel produced a 10-shot group that has an extreme spread of 0.946” with a mean radius of 0.33”.
….
Colt M4A1 SOCOM Barrel Accuracy: Another Look
In 2010, I posted one of the first publicly available, in-depth accuracy evaluations of a Colt M4A1 SOCOM barrel. At that time, the Colt SOCOM barrel was relatively new to the civilian market. Many people, including myself, were pleasantly surprised by the level of accuracy/precision that I obtained with the SOCOM barrel; particularly since it is a chrome-lined, NATO chambered “military-grade” barrel. Since that time, the Colt M4A1 SOCOM barrel has developed a significant appreciation amongst AR-15 enthusiasts.
The M4A1 SOCOM barrel
Recently, I assembled another upper receiver group based on the Colt M4A1 SOCOM barrel. This new build features a Colt cage-code marked M4 upper receiver, a Colt “C” marked bolt carrier group and a 13” Geissele MK14 M-LOK free-float hand-guard.
A genuine Colt M4A1 SOCOM barrel is 14.5” long and has a medium contour; it is not an HBAR. The barrel has a 5.56mm NATO chamber and a 1:7” twist.
Colt SOCOM barrel
Colt HBAR
A genuine SOCOM barrel has the typical M4 circumferential cut-out located approximately 1.4” forward of the gas block for the attachment of an M203, as well as rectangular shaped cut-outs underneath the hand-guards on the port and starboard sides of the barrel, located approximately 1.4” aft of the gas block, for the same reason. The gas port on a genuine SOCOM barrel has a diameter of 0.062” and the barrel employs a carbine-length gas system.
The SOCOM barrel has a stripped weight of 1 pound, 14 ounces. That is only 2 ounces heavier than the ubiquitous 16” government profile barrel found on the Colt 6920.
Colt SOCOM barrel
Colt 6920 barrel
The stripped weight of the SOCOM barrel is 5 ounces heavier than the stripped weight of the standard Colt 14.5” M4 barrel. The pic below shows the difference between the standard M4 barrel and the SOCOM barrel. From the gas block journal forward, the two barrels are identical
SOCOM barrel on top, standard barrel on bottom
The next pic is a close-up comparing the two barrels in the area between the chamber and the gas block journal, showing you were the extra weight is added.
The date-code on my original SOCOM barrel was “11/03” and the date-code on my newer SOCOM barrel is “02/18”
My original SOCOM barrel hand an “F-marked” front sight base. Colt no longer stamps an “F” on their front sight bases, but their newer front sight bases maintain the length of 1.98” from the top of the barrel to the shelf for the front sight post.
My original SOCOM barrel was stamped:
“C MP 5.56 NATO 1/7”
The newer SOCOM barrel is stamped with Colt’s cage code.
“13629 M P 5.56 NATO 1/7”
Both of these SOCOM barrels have the “O” stamp near the chamber portion of the barrel, indicating the barrel has a chrome-lined chamber and bore. Naturally, the M4A1 SOCOM barrel has M4 feed ramps.
Accuracy Is Final
In 2010, my original SOCOM barrel with the “11/03” date-code produced a 10-shot group fired from a distance of 100 yards that had an extreme spread of 0.90”. That group was fired from my bench-rest set-up using match-grade hand-loads and a high magnification scope.
My newer SOCOM barrel with the “02/18” date-code produced a 10-shot group fired from a distance of 100 yards that had an extreme spread of 0.93”. This group was fired off of sand-bags using match-grade hand-loads and a high magnification scope.
. . . .
Noveske 14.5” CHF Barrel Accuracy
The 14.5” N4 barrel was tested in the same manner as described above. Three 10-shot groups fired from 100 yards using match grade hand-loads had extreme spreads of:
1.029”
1.360”
1.275”
for a 10-shot group average extreme spread of 1.22”. As above, I over-layed the three 10-shot groups on each other using RSI Shooting lab to form a 30-shot composite group. The mean radius for that composite group was 0.37”.
...
Thank you, that's what I was seeing and thinking as well. I too see barrel as a consumable.
+1 for SOCOM. If you want MLOK, consider RIS 3. But RIS 2 is still a beast.
Not so much recommending anything and more of providing valid data for use in making informed decisions.
....
I'm just one data point and it seems like you may already be looking for something other than a Geissele, but I have a 14.5 SD in ODG and I've had no problems with it. The barrel is a better profile than government, but it's not as lightweight as something like a BCM ELW. Take that as a pro or con depending on what you prioritize. I've run it through two training classes in hot and cold weather without issues.
I agree on the profile being better than gov't (what isn't, though...
).For what it may be worth to OP, my Geissele 11.5 SD felt heavier than my wife's 14.5 ELW with KMR-A.
For a "duty" / "self defense" rifle out of the box I wouldnt hesitate to go with ADM. They use Criterion chrome-lined barrels which have 4 times the life of match grade barrels and VERY few people are going to be able to outshoot a Criterion barrel. Mine is sub-MOA with handloads. They are also fully ambidextrous. They make fantastic stuff that is reasonably priced. LMT, PWS (not sure if chrome lined), and FN SCAR (the SCAR 16 is overpriced for what it is) would be my only other considerations. I went with the SCAR 17 for a large frame and after spending a small fortune it is in my eyes the perfect rifle albeit far from a bargain.
I understand not wanting to build.
My go-to AR is a 14.5" Criterion hybrid with an ADM UIC lower and Vltor MUR upper. I couldnt be happier with it.
Check out the ADM Core 13.9" pretty sweet setup
I understand not wanting to build.
My go-to AR is a 14.5" Criterion hybrid with an ADM UIC lower and Vltor MUR upper. I couldnt be happier with it.
Check out the ADM Core 13.9" pretty sweet setup
They're hefty for sure. Not as big a gap between a 11.5 and a 14.5, but I have a BCM 16" ELW w/ a MCMR-15 that I enjoy shooting more offhand because of the weight. The Geissele is still my SHTF rifle, though.I agree on the profile being better than gov't (what isn't, though...
For what it may be worth to OP, my Geissele 11.5 SD felt heavier than my wife's 14.5 ELW with KMR-A.
Don't know much about ADM. LMT and PWS both make excellent rifles. LMT comes in DI and piston versions. PWS piston only. There is nothing wrong with a piston system, but they tend to be heavier, use proprietary parts and all things being equal will probably not be as accurate as a DI gun. Where pistons tend to shine is if you're shooting suppressed, since they can generally be adjusted to minimize blowback to your face and to soften recoil. But you don't plan on shooting suppressed.
And even if you were to get a LMT DI gun, it's doubtful it would be as accurate as a CLE. Yes, they are reliable and have good quality barrels, that will outlast a CLE stainless barrel, and they are good shooters, but CLE really puts their emphasis on accuracy and they produce among the most accurate AR's you can buy.
If you are looking for an alternative to CLE, I'd take a look at White Oak Armament. Also known for very accurate uppers, and like CLE they tend to cater to the high-power shooter. They also have a couple of sales throughout the year where you can save some money.
And even if you were to get a LMT DI gun, it's doubtful it would be as accurate as a CLE. Yes, they are reliable and have good quality barrels, that will outlast a CLE stainless barrel, and they are good shooters, but CLE really puts their emphasis on accuracy and they produce among the most accurate AR's you can buy.
If you are looking for an alternative to CLE, I'd take a look at White Oak Armament. Also known for very accurate uppers, and like CLE they tend to cater to the high-power shooter. They also have a couple of sales throughout the year where you can save some money.
Just to finalize this thread I ended up purchasing complete lower and uppers from CLE. I felt best with them considering they cater to the precision, competitive shooting community and have an excellent reputation for accuracy and reliability. I appreciate knowing that they will indicate and cut the chamber and crown concentric to the bore. I've had great luck in the past with Krieger, this will be my 5th rifle with one. CLE let me specify everything with the parts, even had to special order a couple that weren't in stock. The lower arrived within a couple weeks, the upper took about 2.5 months. Optics should arrive this week and I'm starting to prep brass for loading. Hopefully I'll get to start shooting within the next couple weeks. Great thing is my wife is interested in shooting it... I ended up with the following specs:
Aero receivers
UBR Gen2 buttstock
SSA-E trigger
Krieger 7.7 twist 14.5" barrel
P&W flash hider
CLE chamber
Adjustable gas block
MLok handguard
Ambi charging handle
Nightforce NX8 1-8x
Aero receivers
UBR Gen2 buttstock
SSA-E trigger
Krieger 7.7 twist 14.5" barrel
P&W flash hider
CLE chamber
Adjustable gas block
MLok handguard
Ambi charging handle
Nightforce NX8 1-8x
When did you order your Upper from Compass Lake, do you remember?
I think it was in April.
You will love your CLE. They are super solid and by far the most accurate AR i own or I've personally shot. They are really good at what they do and, as many have said, they have a very long reputation for superior accuracy. I have a chrome barrel on a few AR's but I really prefer stainless for precision anything.
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