Good point @FALex , a mated or matched set, should stay that way. I am also curious what blanks Falkor is using. I did have the chance to handle a couple JP rifles not long ago. One in 5.56, the other in .308; both were privately owned and received Dracos barrels. The handguards were swapped, and barrels added, and to the extent of my knowledge, the guy that owns them likes them as much as I did. JP makes a nice weapon.
- Thread starter Coyote Kev
- Start date
I believe dracos uses black hole weaponry blanks. I have a couple bhw barrels that I am very happy with. Both are good shooters and dont pick up hardly any copper.
I still have my JP 260 as my other barrel misadventures have left me wanting. Shot a coyote with it today in fact. Dracos uses Black Hole Weaponry barrels. I have used factory ammo. Shoots great, except shot #1.
I guess we need to throw some gas back on this fire.
My 6mm Creed Dracos barrel was not previously doing this, and now it is.
I've been shooting it since April or May of 2018, and the last time I can tell that it was not doing it was late September.
I have not yet shot it unsupressed to check that.
Here's an interesting twist that may be related:
Nearly all of my shooting has been hand loads. Same load was previously shooting about .5 to .75 MOA all the time. Now it's throwing 1st round fliers.
After this flyer thing started, I tried shooting some factory Hornady Precision Hunter 103 ELDX.
With those rounds, it does the same thing regrading POI - first round flier.. However, the odd part is the brass.
The first shot is fine. Brass has maybe only the slightest swipe, and the primer looks good.
On subsequent shots (within the next few seconds), the primer blows out, and I have a fricken divot as opposed to a swipe.
Let the thing sit for a few minutes and it does it again.
I thought they were jammed into the lands, so I seated them all like a tenth deeper.
A cartridge pushed into the chamber falls out no problem, but it still does it: First shot fine, minimal pressure signs. Next shots blow primers.
Sounds like a big time pressure problem, but I would expect to see a velocity increase out of the 2nd and 3rd rounds, but there's not.
I run my magnetospeed on every shot, and the times I was looking for it, velocity on the subsequent shots was very much the same or sometimes lower.
WTF is up with that? Carbon ring? Headspace issue? Why is the first shot fine?
Notes:
My 6mm Creed Dracos barrel was not previously doing this, and now it is.
I've been shooting it since April or May of 2018, and the last time I can tell that it was not doing it was late September.
I have not yet shot it unsupressed to check that.
Here's an interesting twist that may be related:
Nearly all of my shooting has been hand loads. Same load was previously shooting about .5 to .75 MOA all the time. Now it's throwing 1st round fliers.
After this flyer thing started, I tried shooting some factory Hornady Precision Hunter 103 ELDX.
With those rounds, it does the same thing regrading POI - first round flier.. However, the odd part is the brass.
The first shot is fine. Brass has maybe only the slightest swipe, and the primer looks good.
On subsequent shots (within the next few seconds), the primer blows out, and I have a fricken divot as opposed to a swipe.
Let the thing sit for a few minutes and it does it again.
I thought they were jammed into the lands, so I seated them all like a tenth deeper.
A cartridge pushed into the chamber falls out no problem, but it still does it: First shot fine, minimal pressure signs. Next shots blow primers.
Sounds like a big time pressure problem, but I would expect to see a velocity increase out of the 2nd and 3rd rounds, but there's not.
I run my magnetospeed on every shot, and the times I was looking for it, velocity on the subsequent shots was very much the same or sometimes lower.
WTF is up with that? Carbon ring? Headspace issue? Why is the first shot fine?
Notes:
- For the first shot in the mag, I have the bolt pulled back and just hit the bolt release. Subsequent shots are chambered DI-style.
- I'm running a JP high pressure bolt.
Could be the bolt has loosened/worn in and is unlocking a bit earlier/different than subsequent shots.
Couple of guys suggested trying the following (in a safe location of course):
Load 4 rounds in mag, shoot once(first round only)... Let sit with live round in chamber, safety on of course and pointed in safe direction for 10,15,20min or whatever it takes to repeat first round flyer back to cold bore. Then shoot 3 shot group. If it shoots normally for the next 3 rounds, it's something in the bolt lockup process when chambering new round using bolt release.
Repeat 2 or 3 times to confirm.
If it still has a flyer high on first round it's probably barrel related. Call Dracos.
Man that is double fucked up. These 6CM AR10s are fools gold. Bolt actions anyone?
I plan to run through a few more tests tomorrow or Friday.
I've been reading up on receiver lapping. I doubt it was done by DPMS for the original barrel, and I didn't do it when installing the new barrel. As I recall, the barrel extension to receiver fit was not incredibly tight. Unless something conclusive comes out of the above tests, I'm going to tear it apart, lap it, and put back together with some Loctite 609 or 620.
- 4-round test, per Subwrx300 to test if chambering method is a factor.
- New box of Factory 103s.
- Supressed vs unsupressed.
I've been reading up on receiver lapping. I doubt it was done by DPMS for the original barrel, and I didn't do it when installing the new barrel. As I recall, the barrel extension to receiver fit was not incredibly tight. Unless something conclusive comes out of the above tests, I'm going to tear it apart, lap it, and put back together with some Loctite 609 or 620.
Nothing bad will come of doing the barrel the preferred way.
Possible barrel is moving on you.
I have one to strip and check as well.
It started stringing horizontal and or vertical not at the same time?
Nearly 1 bullet width apart exactly in 5 shot strings in a perfect line?
I think my barrel extension to receiver fit was compromised by a want to be gunsmith that got fired for incompetence.
All I know is after he worked on it my groups went south.
Possible barrel is moving on you.
I have one to strip and check as well.
It started stringing horizontal and or vertical not at the same time?
Nearly 1 bullet width apart exactly in 5 shot strings in a perfect line?
I think my barrel extension to receiver fit was compromised by a want to be gunsmith that got fired for incompetence.
All I know is after he worked on it my groups went south.
Update:
Testing results makes it seem like there's more than 1 problem.
First to recap what I'm testing for:
I can say that #3 is a yes.
Unsuppressed, I seem to be seeing flyers due to #2.
Suppressed, I'm seeing flyers due to #1.
For example, shooting unsuppressed, I shot 1 round, let recoil chamber round 2 and sit in the chamber for 2 minutes. Then I shot 2, 3, and 4 within about 10 seconds of each other, and then let round 5 sit for 2 minutes and fired. This is what happened:
As you can see, the rounds that had at least 2 minutes between all group together. I dont' think I just rushed shots 3 and 4.
I did it again with a hand load (4 rounds this time):
Now shooting suppressed, I shot the 4 rounds in the same manner, but the result was the aggravating "first round high". Unlike while shooting unsupressed, round 2 grouped with 3 and 4, even though it sat in the chamber for 2 minutes.
And to touch back on the brass issue I was having with the Hornaday factory 103s... I got a new box, and it wasn't quite as bad this time, but there's still an issue.
Check this out, the cases are ordered in the sequence I fired them, left to right.
The first round has hardly a mark on it, while the rest have pretty bad swipes, and #4 blew the primer. Velocity of all 4 rounds showed negligible variation.
I think those factory 103s are loaded a bit hot. I was getting ~3020 with a 22" barrel. But... why is the first round fine?
This brass problem was much worse shooting suppressed, even though I had my gas adjusted for proper ejection.
Conclusions?
There seems to be more than one problem here, and the suppressor is part of the puzzle. At least it has an influence on the how the problem is manifested.
I'm not going to shoot this thing again until I get my lapping tool from PTG and bed this barrel.
Testing results makes it seem like there's more than 1 problem.
First to recap what I'm testing for:
- Does the chambering method (bolt release vs recoil) make a difference?
- Does time between shots (i.e. some time of "cool down" period) make a difference?
- Does the suppressor make a difference?
I can say that #3 is a yes.
Unsuppressed, I seem to be seeing flyers due to #2.
Suppressed, I'm seeing flyers due to #1.
For example, shooting unsuppressed, I shot 1 round, let recoil chamber round 2 and sit in the chamber for 2 minutes. Then I shot 2, 3, and 4 within about 10 seconds of each other, and then let round 5 sit for 2 minutes and fired. This is what happened:
As you can see, the rounds that had at least 2 minutes between all group together. I dont' think I just rushed shots 3 and 4.
I did it again with a hand load (4 rounds this time):
Now shooting suppressed, I shot the 4 rounds in the same manner, but the result was the aggravating "first round high". Unlike while shooting unsupressed, round 2 grouped with 3 and 4, even though it sat in the chamber for 2 minutes.
And to touch back on the brass issue I was having with the Hornaday factory 103s... I got a new box, and it wasn't quite as bad this time, but there's still an issue.
Check this out, the cases are ordered in the sequence I fired them, left to right.
The first round has hardly a mark on it, while the rest have pretty bad swipes, and #4 blew the primer. Velocity of all 4 rounds showed negligible variation.
I think those factory 103s are loaded a bit hot. I was getting ~3020 with a 22" barrel. But... why is the first round fine?
This brass problem was much worse shooting suppressed, even though I had my gas adjusted for proper ejection.
Conclusions?
There seems to be more than one problem here, and the suppressor is part of the puzzle. At least it has an influence on the how the problem is manifested.
I'm not going to shoot this thing again until I get my lapping tool from PTG and bed this barrel.
While bedding the barrel properly could influence your shot string point of impacts, it shouldnt have anything to do with the blown primers. Somehow you are creating a very high chamber pressure. Have you cleaned the shit out of it? Perhaps a carbon ring is involved. Have you measured the COAL with a 103 ELD in its current dirty state? Also, on adjusting the gas “properly” are you going by angle of ejection or by bolt lock back on empty mag? I’ve had a gunsmith who builds AR10 barrels tell me that angle of ejection doesn’t mean much on AR10s and that sort of method is only useful for 15s.
I agree lapping and bedding won't help the brass issue. However, I'm not seeing that behavior on my hand loads with Lapua brass. Could be that I'm not loading hot enough to really see it, or it could be some quirk of the Hornady factory rounds. I should probably do a length to shoulder comparison between the two.
Also, it's not like it does it only when it starts to get dirty. I can shoot one group and the first case will be fine, followed by some blown primers within the next three rounds. Then a few minutes later, I'll shoot another group, and the first one will be fine again.
That particular issue seems to be related to how the round is chambered. Maybe recoil-induced chambering is knocking the bullet sideways a bit (like runout), which creates a pressure spike or something.
As for gas adjustment, yes I have it turned down so that it locks back on last round, and then just a hair more. I'll say that I do have it optimized for my hand loads, which may not be optimal for the Hornady factory rounds, but I have a hard time believing they're that far apart.
Also, it's not like it does it only when it starts to get dirty. I can shoot one group and the first case will be fine, followed by some blown primers within the next three rounds. Then a few minutes later, I'll shoot another group, and the first one will be fine again.
That particular issue seems to be related to how the round is chambered. Maybe recoil-induced chambering is knocking the bullet sideways a bit (like runout), which creates a pressure spike or something.
As for gas adjustment, yes I have it turned down so that it locks back on last round, and then just a hair more. I'll say that I do have it optimized for my hand loads, which may not be optimal for the Hornady factory rounds, but I have a hard time believing they're that far apart.
Just wanted to add to this conversation, I also have a .308 18” Dracos in an Aero M5E1 build. Running RCA gas key and SiCo Omega can. Have Tubbs AR10 flatwire spring and 5.6oz KAK carbine buffer spring.
Anyways, was shooting at the range this past weekend with 168 SMK Federal Gold factory loads and experienced the “Dracos” first round flyer phenomenon on every single 5 shot group. See picture below.
On my previous range sessions I never observed this because I had a severe over gassed situation which caused the gun to shoot wildly inaccurate. Fixed all that with a heavier buffer, tubbs spring, and most importantly the RCA adjustable gas key.
I was happy to be getting bug holes with the 4 shots, and just assumed the first round cold bore flyer was due to physics of a cold bore shot or me not being a great shooter (I did shoot a 0.361” 5 shot group with my Ruger RPR and 140 gr American Gunner ammo in this range session though!). After reading all 3 pages of this thread, it seems there may be more to the story, but I don’t know what my next steps are in diagnosing or fixing the problem!
Last side note, I shot 5, 5 shot groups with this gun at the range. All 5 exhibited the exact pattern; a nice 4 shot group with the first round being ~ 1.5” high at 12 o’clock.
Any ideas from the Hide on what I should do next?
Anyways, was shooting at the range this past weekend with 168 SMK Federal Gold factory loads and experienced the “Dracos” first round flyer phenomenon on every single 5 shot group. See picture below.
On my previous range sessions I never observed this because I had a severe over gassed situation which caused the gun to shoot wildly inaccurate. Fixed all that with a heavier buffer, tubbs spring, and most importantly the RCA adjustable gas key.
I was happy to be getting bug holes with the 4 shots, and just assumed the first round cold bore flyer was due to physics of a cold bore shot or me not being a great shooter (I did shoot a 0.361” 5 shot group with my Ruger RPR and 140 gr American Gunner ammo in this range session though!). After reading all 3 pages of this thread, it seems there may be more to the story, but I don’t know what my next steps are in diagnosing or fixing the problem!
Last side note, I shot 5, 5 shot groups with this gun at the range. All 5 exhibited the exact pattern; a nice 4 shot group with the first round being ~ 1.5” high at 12 o’clock.
Any ideas from the Hide on what I should do next?
Welcome to the club. Wish I had answers.
I'll mention that I have a similar setup. It's a 22" 6 Creed barrel, but I also have the RCA adjustable gas key, Tubb flatwire spring, a heavy-ish buffer, and am shooting suppressed.
I'll mention that I have a similar setup. It's a 22" 6 Creed barrel, but I also have the RCA adjustable gas key, Tubb flatwire spring, a heavy-ish buffer, and am shooting suppressed.
Aggravating isn’t it? Shots 2-5 show you what this barrel can do. Makes you really want to try hard to figure it out. In my experience, this is fools gold. I’ve spent many hours at the range and reloading bench and many dollars in brass, bullets and powder only to figure out nothing. I’ve had 2 different 260 Rem barrels as well as a 6.5 and 6.0 Creedmoor mounted on 3 different rifles all from differerent manufacturers and they all did the same thing. That’s right, I’m 4 for 4 on this 1st round high bullshit. Unfortunately I think the problem is inherent to the design. I tried so many different things that for it not to be the barrel itself is statiscally unlikely. I eventually just asked for my money back and they obliged no problem. I now have a Proof in 6mm Creedmoor. It puts shots 1-5 in damn near the same hole but has its own set of problems. I can’t wait to get my Desert Tech SRS put together so I can have some positive experiences at the range again.
OP, I did not read all the responses but it looks to me like your cleaning it after every trip, if so STOP doing that. A Clean bore has much higher friction than a foaled bore, as all powder has graphite in it. Rack guns (aka factory tomato stake barrels) can take 10+ rds to settle in custom 0-1. Don't clean the barrel until groups open up.
Hey Gunfighter, we're not cleaning these things every day. It happens whether there's 10 or 100 rounds on the barrel since cleaning.
@ CajunRPR, are you also running the JP high pressure bolt?
Of course the most obvious culprit is the barrel itself, but I'm trying to figure out if there's a list of parts that are common amongst the afflicted.
I know CoyoteKev had this problem right out of the box with 4 different barrels, and it sounds like you might be too, but I did not. Mine shot very well for the first several hundred rounds before this problem turned up.
@ CajunRPR, are you also running the JP high pressure bolt?
Of course the most obvious culprit is the barrel itself, but I'm trying to figure out if there's a list of parts that are common amongst the afflicted.
I know CoyoteKev had this problem right out of the box with 4 different barrels, and it sounds like you might be too, but I did not. Mine shot very well for the first several hundred rounds before this problem turned up.
Gunfighter, overall my barrel has just under 300 rounds through it. Cleaned it fairly regularly during break in (shoot 5 clean 1), but haven’t touched the bore since.
SuppressYourself, yes I am currently running the JP High Pressure 308 bolt. Originally I wasn’t though, and just using the nickel boron aero precison 308 bolt. But I had ejector/extractor issues combined with the over gassed situation from not having a gas block or gas key.
Before installing all these parts (heavy buffer, JP HP bolt, RCA gas key) I don’t think I was having the first round flyer issue, but admittedly I can’t say for sure. I was shooting 3-4 MOA (with feeding failures, ejection failures, and a lot of gas blowback) so I couldn’t tell really.
But as mentioned above, now everything seems about right. Recoil impulse is drastically reduced, brass ejects @ 3 o’clock into a bucket, and I can shoot really good 4 shot groups; just the first one is a little high.
Next time I go to range I want to try a group of only cold bore shots at the same target (load 1 shoot, wait 5 min, load 1
Shoot). And I also want to try shooting 5 shot groups at 1/2/3/4/5 minute intervals apart to see if I can tell when the bore gets “cold” again and if that has any effect on the height of the first round flyer.
SuppressYourself, yes I am currently running the JP High Pressure 308 bolt. Originally I wasn’t though, and just using the nickel boron aero precison 308 bolt. But I had ejector/extractor issues combined with the over gassed situation from not having a gas block or gas key.
Before installing all these parts (heavy buffer, JP HP bolt, RCA gas key) I don’t think I was having the first round flyer issue, but admittedly I can’t say for sure. I was shooting 3-4 MOA (with feeding failures, ejection failures, and a lot of gas blowback) so I couldn’t tell really.
But as mentioned above, now everything seems about right. Recoil impulse is drastically reduced, brass ejects @ 3 o’clock into a bucket, and I can shoot really good 4 shot groups; just the first one is a little high.
Next time I go to range I want to try a group of only cold bore shots at the same target (load 1 shoot, wait 5 min, load 1
Shoot). And I also want to try shooting 5 shot groups at 1/2/3/4/5 minute intervals apart to see if I can tell when the bore gets “cold” again and if that has any effect on the height of the first round flyer.
@CajunRPR you have any results from the 'cold bore group' testing you mentioned above?
I found a similar thread here: https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/first-round-flyers.6931386/
Interestingly, in that case, the problem was documented to occur with all manner of rifles, with only the suppressor being the common factor.
I found a similar thread here: https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/first-round-flyers.6931386/
Interestingly, in that case, the problem was documented to occur with all manner of rifles, with only the suppressor being the common factor.
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