20" 300WM with a can? Why not? **Chrono update**

[Anchor Zero Six]

OK guys I have used the search engine and have read till crosseyed.

By all accounts it seems like 22" is the shortest advisable length for the 300WM. Any shorter and the concensus is that there is just too much unburnt powder to take full advantage of the round, and you get a nice fireball as a bonus.

In none of these threads is the use of a supressor mentioned. Wondering how if at all this would change things. Would there be any danger to accumulating unburnt powder within the can or would it just burn off inside?

Just when I convinced myself 20" 300wm was a bad idea I stumble across a few threads regarding 20" 338's and they seem to be doing the job rather well. This has caused me to reconsider the short 300.

My goal is to have an honest 1K yd rifle with respectable energy at range in a smaller package. Intend on using 190SMK's but open to other suggestions. Barrel will be a Rock 5R 1/10

What say the hide?

 

[jroberts]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

tag im also interested in this

 

[pappy83]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

I had a Savage Precision Carbine(20 inch barrel) in 300wm, Savage special order dept put it together for me. It would push a 190smk at 2800fps with H1000, and was very accurate. It packed a good punch for its size.

 

[TxShooter63]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

The last thing you want is a lite .300 wm and barrel length helps create weight. My 300WM is 17 pounds and suppressed and after a day of shooting your shoulder is more than aware of what you have been doing.

 

[Anchor Zero Six]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

Not new to the 300's recoil and hear ya on the weight consideration. My guess being that with a Stainless can I would offset any weight reduction of the short barrel. Also the stock is a McM A5 Sniper fill with an MTU barrel. Barrel is curently 308 just kicking around the idea of reaming it out to 300 and swapping bolts.

 

[BallCoeff_606]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

Been shooting the 300 for 25 years in one sort of Browning or another and think any barrel less than 24-25 inches is a bad idea. 20 or 22 inches is insane. This ain't a 308.

In order to get decent/typical MV (say 2900-3000fps) you'd typically be using a medium-slow powder like 7828 or RL22 in a 26-inch barrel. Otherwise you pressure-peak way too high with a faster powder trying to get up there. This assumes a 180gn spitzer which is typical for the 300wm.

For 1000-yard work I'd go with a typical 26-inch barrel up to 28-inch bbl; especially if you intend on using unusually heavy bullets such as 190s or 200s.

 

[Spuhr]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

I testfired four Browning BARs some years ago with Norma 180 grain ammo. Same bullet in all calibers (Norma oryx)
Calibers was .308, 30-06, 300 WM and 300 WSM.
All barrels was 20,5" long and the bore dimensions was pretty similar, with the .30-06 and .300 WM .0004" tighter than the others.

Result:
30-06 2477 fps
.308 2560 fps
.300 WM 2591 fps
.300 WSM 2624 fps

Minor differance in velocitys but not in muzzle flash.
We took photographs with open shutter in the dark.
The .308 had at the night shoot a 3" long tiny flash, while the .300 WM was illuminating the whole field. And it was a giant fireball in front of the gun!

We did also the same shoot with Norma loaded ballistic tip 150 gr. and the result was;
.308 2706 fps
30-06 2755 fps
.300 WM 2919 fps
.300 wsm 2952 fps.

We only used Norma ammo as that was the only availble with the same bullet in all four calibers. No handloads was tested.
Conclusion is pretty clear, win mag and short barrels are not a combination........... Unless for new years eve!

Håkan

 

[Kanati]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

The question requires data from someone with a 20" .300WM, both suppressed and unsuppressed MV's as well as different loads such as 190gr SMK and the newer 220gr. I have some buddies that can get me some data, it may take a week or so. I think it's worth looking into as I have the same question. I was told that guys were hitting 1200yds CONSISTENTLY with that platform suppressed on 220gr.

-tf

 

[Anchor Zero Six]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

TF,

I along with many others would appreciate that info.

By chance are you refering to MK248 and A191 loads? My issue with either is as far as I know at least for the 248 I would need to get a new reamer and not certain Mr Kiff will sell them. My understanding is the 248 burns throats pretty fast. Any info regarding that would be welcome as well.

As for the other replies...guys I'm not trying to rehash a subject that has been beat to death before. I know most agree 22" is the bleeding edge of advisable 300wm barrel length. I'm looking for solid info on how (if at all) adding a supressor to the scenario changes things.

Again the reason I'm bringing this up is there are a few threads regarding short 338's proving rather capable so my question is if its working for 338 why not 300?

 

[Kanati]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

Those are the rounds. I will ask about the life of the throat as well, that would be good to know. It makes sense to look into this. I will also have my friend Dave Tubb look into the science of it for me, I'm sure he can find out when the rounds would go subsonic. Hell, he may already have some density altitude dope cards for those systems.

-tf

 

[Anchor Zero Six]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

Like Tubb knows anything about shooting rifles

BTW wheres he been? He use to pop in from time to time on here but havnt seen a peep in a while from him.

Think another thing that will need to be looked at is what supressors will handle a 20" 300wm without destroying the blast baffle. Most mfg's state safe for 300wm with a given barrel length (most 26") in their 7.62 offerings. Wonder which are built stout enough to hold up.

 

[KYS]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BallCoeff.606</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Been shooting the 300 for 25 years in one sort of Browning or another and think any barrel less than 24-25 inches is a bad idea. 20 or 22 inches is insane. This ain't a 308.

In order to get decent/typical MV (say 2900-3000fps) you'd typically be using a medium-slow powder like 7828 or RL22 in a 26-inch barrel. Otherwise you pressure-peak way too high with a faster powder trying to get up there. This assumes a 180gn spitzer which is typical for the 300wm.

For 1000-yard work I'd go with a typical 26-inch barrel up to 28-inch bbl; especially if you intend on using unusually heavy bullets such as 190s or 200s. </div></div>

190's are not unusually heavy. They are pretty common actually. If you want to get in the heavy's that are not common try the 220's, 250's and on up.

 

[HTG Mike]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

We have shot our M30-A on a 20" Win Mag.

It shot fine with no adverse wear on the blast baffle.

Unfortunately, we only shot a box of shells (not much testing) and we didn't chrono the bullets. The ammo was Winchester 180gr PowerPoint. With this combination, it suppressed to ~140dB.

Next time we do some testing, I will collect the chrono data to share.

 

[Anchor Zero Six]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

Playing with JBM i came up with the following;

Based on Spur's data I'm guessing its possible to cook up a load to get a 190 SMK to hit 2500 FPS.

300WM 190 SMK @ 2500 FPS
Subsonic at 1200 yds
Energy at 1K 604 Ft/Lbs
-35.8 MOA

308 175 SMK @ 2650
Subsonic at 1100 yds
Energy at 1K 496 Ft/Lbs
-34 MOA

 

[SniperCJ]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BallCoeff.606</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For 1000-yard work I'd go with a typical 26-inch barrel up to 28-inch bbl...</div></div>

Im running a 23 inch and 190's. Banging 1000 yds till it gets boring.

 

[Anchor Zero Six]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

Plugged some more numberst into the magic machine...this cant be right can it?

Looking at other users load data for 230 Berger Hybrid's from a 25" 1/10 barrel they were getting 2755. I subtracted 250 FPS assuming a loss of 50 FPS for every inch down to 20" so I plugged in 2505 for velocity and heres what I got

300WM 230 Berger @ 2505 FPS
Subsonic at 1600 yds
Energy at 1K 1098 ft/lbs
-29 MOA at 1K

Those numbers look too good what did I screw up with my methodology?

 

[Kanati]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

AZS,
Good math, those numbers are feasible and the calculation looks good. The only thing we need is hard data at this point. I'm still working on acquiring the data from the guys using this specific platform/ammo combination. More info to follow.

Edit for update:
Just talked to the guys at Superior Shooting Systems (S3) and they will get me the data tomorrow. They are going to send an average of multiple 20" .300's w and w/o suppressors. They mentioned that the addition of the suppressor minimally affected the MV. With that said, the guys that own those guns do not shoot suppressed as much as you would think. The key to a 20" .300 achieving excellent external ballistics is either a hand load or temperature insensitive powder with 190gr being the minimum projectile. Also, the 220gr round will fit in a 190gr throat, although you would optimally want to ream a 190 throat if you shoot nothing but 220 through it.

-tf

 

[Kanati]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BallCoeff.606</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For 1000-yard work I'd go with a typical 26-inch barrel up to 28-inch bbl...</div></div>

Im running a 23 inch and 190's. Banging 1000 yds till it gets boring. </div></div>

Hell yeah, good stuff!

 

[Anchor Zero Six]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

All good gouge TF!

Regarding cans my desire to use one is to offset recoil and reduce what I assume would be considerable flash from a short barrel.

I do a lot of shooting prone on concrete with an awning. I would guess a short 300 would really ring your bell and really piss off anybody in close proximity.

Had a 26" 300 with brake and while recoil was tame the concussion was another story in enclosed concrete.

Tribe said short barrels like heavy projectiles so far think that's the key.

 

[Kanati]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

I absolutely agree with using a can when you can, especially for recoil management, barrel hop, and the obvious sound reduction. My statement was more in reference to the data that we're getting tomorrow, most of it will be from non suppressed 300's since that is what most of boys are shooting. The outcome of this data will decide whether I get a long or short barrel 300.

-tf

 

[pappy83]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

I dont have alot of 300wm short barrels but the three I have owned a Sendero at 20 inch with brake, a model 110 savage with 20 inch barrel no brake(sporter barrel), and the PC I sold will all push a 190smk at 2800fps. The remington needs 1.0 grain more of H1000 to get there(my .308 ltr is also slower then my daughters .308 Savage). The guy who bought my PC has kept in contact and shoots his with a can all the time. He is still getting 2800fps with the can and 190smk, they all shoot 208's very well also. The 208's are moving in the low 2700ish with max loads. All the rifles are accurate, the recoil is not bad, when my 100 pound daughter can shoot either of these rifles prone. Your question on the can handling the short barrel is a good one, I will find out the maker of the can on the PC. here is a photo of the 300wm PC it is the rear rifle in photo.

 

[RangerWalker71]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

Tag, I have a 300wm by NHC coming and went with a 22" barrel gonna shoot it suppressed 90% or more of the time.

 

[Rob01]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

What's the load data on those loads because those velocities are pretty good for a 26" barrel. I would like to know what they are using to push them that fast in a 20" barrel.

 

[pappy83]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

I would like to know also, That is real fast, I must be doing something wrong or I got real slow barrels.

 

[Kanati]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

I deleted my last post. The guy I got the data from gave me the wrong barrel length, little mistake, guess this is gonna take longer than I thought to get.

 

[Anchor Zero Six]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

My numbers were sheer speculation. Took numbers from a guy getting good results with a 25" and sunbtracted 50fps for each inch to make the total deduction 250 fps.

Well I went FULL RETARD and just rechambered my 20" Rock 5R to 300wm

Need to get a brake on this thing quick as its weighing 12.3 lbs with scope, mag and sling.

Gonnat get some 230's and start playing...this should be fun!

 

[Kanati]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

I was told by the guys at S3 that you should subtract approx. 15-25fps for every 1" of barrel that is taken off. In your case, you just have to get a brake on it and chrono that MFer. Get us some feedback if you put some 190 or 220 through it. I may end out going with a 22" barrel, pending more research.
Ballsy move on the rechamber, sometimes guts is enough!

-tf

 

[Anchor Zero Six]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

I think I may have some 190's already loaded at my dads house I'll check on turkey day. Otherwise I'm gonna start with the 230 hybrids since the BC has me blown away.

Not really balsy as I have a 338 ptg bolt in hot standby so worst case I make it a Lapua.

 

[Kanati]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

I like your moves.

 

[Wild_Bill]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

OK i am going to throw another option in there for you, as you are keen on using a shorter barrel and reloading i would seriously look at a 300WSM or 300 SAUM both would be better suited in the shorter barrel and the shorter powder colum would burn better. the 20" should work fine but the lightest projectile i would look at would be a 208gr A Max i would consider the new Hornady 225gr 30 cals and mabe even the 230gr Bergers. just remember that you will be able to throat the chamber out with the shorter case to gain capacity and stay under 300 Win Mag length with the heavy projectiles. You might find out you have a killer combination. a powder like H4831SC would work well with the heavy projectiles in the 20" barrel and 208gr plus projectiles.

 

[Anchor Zero Six]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

Bill, I agree there are a plethora of options. I'm working with what I have on hand that being a free 700 long action. If I had a short action hanging around I would have tried the WSM.

 

[Anchor Zero Six]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

This is where I got the base numbers I used for my projections http://snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2690508

 

[bm11]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

I imagine you will get better velocity than you initially thought. 2500 with a 190 SMK is nothing, I have read reports of guys getting 2500 fps with 208 AMAXs in 20" 308's.

I would experiment with different powders, as that will be the key. I bet RL-17 will do really well, and I imagine h1000 and the like will do poorely- too slow for the short barrel.

Hell, try some varget or rl-15, as long as the case fill isn't stupid low.

 

[Anchor Zero Six]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

bm11, I was lead to beleive that fast powders such as Var are a bad idea for a 300WM.

Have you tried this?

 

[pappy83]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

I have tried H1000, Re22, Re19 and H4831, the powder giving best velocities is H1000, Re19 does very well though with the 130ttsx bullets which are great on whitetails.

 

[Smith44699]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

Tag

 

[bm11]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Anchor Zero Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">bm11, I was lead to beleive that fast powders such as Var are a bad idea for a 300WM.

Have you tried this? </div></div>No, I haven't tried it. Just saying that a super slow magnum powder is probably not the key, you would want something a bit faster for the 20" barrel. I bet rl-17 is about right.

 

[Anchor Zero Six]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

OK guys I dont have any data as it was rining all weekend and the chrono dosnt work for shit when its full of water. I was able to get some rounds down range and make some observations.

First I need to say that once again Mile high and the crew came through. Ordered my SAS brake and Atlas on Wednesday and it was delivered on Saturday. Installed everything and was at the range late Sunday.

I'm not going to lie I was a bit concerned about the recoil of a 20" 300WM that weighs 12lbs. Brake tamed it down to sub 308 level.

Second concern was I assumed with the short barrel there would be more unburnt powder and a resulting large fireball. NOT the case! As it got darker it was more noticable but no worse than any other brake equiped rifle. To date the loudest and most fire breathing bastage I have owned was a 13.5" MWS in 308. This wasnt even close to that so I'm happy.

Rifle shot well with FGMM 190 smk's I hope to replace the 10X MK4 soon as the ret is a bit coarse for shooting little groups.

Bottom Left had me scratching my head, I am certain I didnt drop it entirely as the shoot n see target was on a paper background and there were no stray holes. I cant tell if the missing round went through the top or bottom group of two.

Went home for turkey day and my dad hooked me up with a bunch or 300 reloading gear and components. I was happy enough with the 6 sets of dies (4 of which are competition micrometer dies) but the best part was the unopened box of 100 Lapua 300WM brass! Picked up some retumbo and just ordered the 230's cant wait to get this running!

Posted this in another thread but this is the rifle I built but now it has an Atlas and SAS brake on it. First one I built for myself so I'm pretty happy with the way its progressing so far.

 

[Wild_Bill]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Anchor Zero Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bill, I agree there are a plethora of options. I'm working with what I have on hand that being a free 700 long action. If I had a short action hanging around I would have tried the WSM. </div></div>

You have to relise that a WSM is much better in a long action anyway with heavy VLD projectiles. a lot of people are building them on long actions because they get better performance. The Rem SAUM case is trhe same length as a 308 but the WSM is longer so it realy is a tight fit in any short action with anything besides a blunt hunting projectile.

What are you using for magazines? the AICS 300 win mag ones work perfectly for a WSM dont discount it because it is supposed to be a short action calibre that is all i was trhing to help with search the forum and read the threads about WSm builds on long actions.

I hope you get a nice rifle either way but if it was me i would be using the WSM in this application if you were running a 26" barrel no compromise on the win mag but a 20" barrel and long action is perfect for a WSM. you will have less muzzle blast and better powder burns inside your barrel. you dont want heaps of unburnt powder burning in your supressor if you can avoid it.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

That's a sick looking rig!

FWIW, my 20" sporter-weight 30-06 easily makes 2650 fps with 208 AMax and RL17.

Your 20" 300WM should easily exceed that by 150+ fps

 

[Anchor Zero Six]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

Bill,

No worries like I said its what I had on hand that prompted this little adventure. WSM reamer is not one I had on hand so my options were limited.

Worst that can happen is I scrap the whole thing and start with a new barrel but so far I'm liking this configuration. Hope soon the rain allows for some chrono time.

 

[slowkota]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Anchor Zero Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

</div></div>

Beautiful setup you've got there!

What brand and contour is that barrel?

 

[Anchor Zero Six]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

Thanks guys! Means alot when it comes from this crowd.

I updated the pic with a current one since installing the brake.

The barrel is a Rock 5R 1/10 flutted M-24.

 

[didithurt]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

that's pretty nice... What am I sayin'... It's FREAKIN' GREAT..! I dig the shape of that stock, did you order it, then trim it out yourself, or did it come like that..? Sorry, it doesn't matter really... It's <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">BADASS..!</span></span></span>

I'm all envious and s#!(

 

[Anchor Zero Six]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: didithurt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">that's pretty nice... What am I sayin'... It's FREAKIN' GREAT..! I dig the shape of that stock, did you order it, then trim it out yourself, or did it come like that..? Sorry, it doesn't matter really... It's <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">BADASS..!</span></span></span>

I'm all envious and s#!(

</div></div>

You are fairly new here so I will be nice

The stock is a McMillan A5 which is one of the most common stocks you will see on rifles here about as common as a SUV on the freeway. I have tried alot of different stocks and still find the A-4 and A-5 to be the most comfortable. I prefer the "look" of the A-4 but it feels like a 2x4 in the front. The A-5 is comfortable no matter where you hold it or what position you are in.

In either case thank you!

 

[Wild_Bill]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

the rifle looks good i hope it all works out. if the 300 win mag does not work just cut the barrel back an inch and do the WSM on a 19"

The rifle will work well i am sure start sending the heavy porojectiles out of it and i am sure it will work.

 

[Anchor Zero Six]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

Hmmmm you need to enlighten me on this...

EDIT: Answered my own question. Looking at the case specs I dont see any issues rechambering from 300wm to 300wsm...didnt know that was possible. Actually never put any thought into it as I assumed is wouldnt work learned something new

LOL I just realized this barrel may end up being rechambered in three calibers!

 

[Anchor Zero Six]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

OK guys here is an update with some chrono data to support.

I finaly got a chance to chrono some ammo today. I shot two 6 round strings of FGMM 190 at 360 ft elevation and 45 F temp.

From everything I could find this ammo should be around 2900 FPS from a 26" barrel. If anyone has info to the contrary please let me know.

Average of 12 rounds fired was 2788 FPS which is 112 FPS less than the specified 2900FPS from a 26" barrel. Highest FPS was 2805 and slowest was 2764 FPS so the difference there was 41 FPS which was a bit more than I expected from FGMM but I have seen worse before.

As this is factory ammo I think it would be easy to cook up a load that will regain the velocity and not exceed safe pressure limits.

I'm stocked up on retumbo, re22 and H1000 as well as Lapua brass and FGMM primers to load up the 190SMK and 230 OTM Bergers. Santa needs to hurry his fat ass up and bring me my new press!

So thus far I think everything is looking good and Im not seeing any real drawback to a 20" barrel. I will certinly agree that there is a benifit to using a longer barrel and not going to say this is as good of a choice for length but for my wants (shorter lighter with alot more ass down range than a 308) I think this is a viable option. I had my buddy fire some rounds so I could observe and yes its a loud SOB with the brake but I didnt notice an unusually large flash, there was certinly a flash but nothing abnormal for a brake.

A06

 

[5RWill]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

Hell i know it's a little light for the 300WM but if you wanted more speed you could always down grade to a 175gr BT LR or SMK.

2788 is still nice though considering the bullet and setup. What's overall weight of the rifle?

 

[Anchor Zero Six]

Re: 20" 300WM with a can? Why not?

I'm less concerned about speed but rather distance and energy. Could push a 175 faster but the 230 has better performance at longer ranges.

The rifle weighs 13.5 lbs with optic, Atlas and empty mag.