I want an 18" 20 practical, what gas length and twist rate? I like to run rifle length on 18" 223s. Are they pretty close?
- Thread starter supercorndogs
- Start date
I shoot a .20 tactical with 22 inch barrel and it has a rifle length gas tube and 10 twist shooting 39g sierras.
1:10 twist
Gas system length can be matched pretty well to 5.56, although port size may be a little different.
18" seems short for this cartridge, but I guess will be more handy if you plan to use it for a walking varmint gun. Usually it's more of a "prairie dog shooting" type of cartridge so you see it in longer barrels more often. I'd guess your velocity will be pretty reasonable with the 39/40gr stuff, but might lose a lot more with the 32gr and lighter compared to longer barrels.
I do the 20 Tactical (dies and case forming are easy, contrary to most of what you'll read) in a 23.5" barrel, rifle length gas of course. 40gr V-Max over Leverevolution is where it's at for my rifle; fast and accurate with very little recoil. This family of cartridges is fun.
Gas system length can be matched pretty well to 5.56, although port size may be a little different.
18" seems short for this cartridge, but I guess will be more handy if you plan to use it for a walking varmint gun. Usually it's more of a "prairie dog shooting" type of cartridge so you see it in longer barrels more often. I'd guess your velocity will be pretty reasonable with the 39/40gr stuff, but might lose a lot more with the 32gr and lighter compared to longer barrels.
I do the 20 Tactical (dies and case forming are easy, contrary to most of what you'll read) in a 23.5" barrel, rifle length gas of course. 40gr V-Max over Leverevolution is where it's at for my rifle; fast and accurate with very little recoil. This family of cartridges is fun.
I have 2 20 practical setups 1 at 26" 1 at 20". Both have rifle length gas systems if I am at the bench I like the 26 much better if I am in the RZR I like the 20". Both have 1/10 twist. I shoot suppressed and have a side charge setup to keep the gas out of my eyes and an adjustable gas block on both. I shoot ground rats & I find myself leaving the bolt setups in the safe more often than not & the AR's going almost every time.
If you have any more questions feel free to ask love the 20 Practical.
If you have any more questions feel free to ask love the 20 Practical.
Are there any options for dies other than Redding Type S 223 with different a bushing? I see Hornady makes dies for the 20 Tactical, but then do you need the form die?
Woa is a very good source for the 20 Practical. Every time I have talked to John about shooting prairie dogs he brings up the 20 practical.
I only saw barrels longer than 20" listed at WOA. I like their 223 barrels.
The white oak barrels are all heavy contour as well, not sure what contour you’re after.
I don’t have anything to contribute as far as gas length, but if I was doing an AR, it would be a light to medium contour 18”. My primary varmint gun uses a 19” krieger 10 twist #5 on a TL3 action. 39bk’s at 3550. 32’s at 3750. I think any bushing FL die would work. I use a Redding type s now, but if I was buying again it would be a hornady match.
I don’t have anything to contribute as far as gas length, but if I was doing an AR, it would be a light to medium contour 18”. My primary varmint gun uses a 19” krieger 10 twist #5 on a TL3 action. 39bk’s at 3550. 32’s at 3750. I think any bushing FL die would work. I use a Redding type s now, but if I was buying again it would be a hornady match.
With the Hornady dies, you don't need anything else. 223 brass into the size die, 20 Tactical comes out. No form dies needed. One tip - trim after forming, not before, since the first pass in the die actually shortens the brass a little when the shoulder gets pushed back to the 30 degree angle.
With the 20 Practical you need a 223 S die with different bushing and different decapping set if you use it that way. I'm not aware of any easier or cheaper option for the Practical.
When I was researching the Tac vs Prac question, almost all of the info I found online was misleading or flat out wrong and apparently written with the assumption that everyone uses a 223 S die. Several articles (and forum posts repeating the same info) talked about needing form dies for the Tac and how the Prac was just a "simple bushing swap". With Hornady's die set available though, the Tac is by far the easier option for me, and it shoots very well.
Even if I did use a Redding Type S 223 die, I wouldn't want to be swapping it between 223 and 20 cal duty, so it would mean buying a whole new die anyway.
Woa will do some custom work within reason. I wouldn’t Count them out just because it’s not on their website.
The middle two are 20 Tactical (39gr TNT and 40gr V-Max), 223 on the right.
If that's directed at me:
23.5" barrel (I machined from a BHW blank)
With Leverevolution powder and the 40gr V-max (the accuracy champ in mine), my accuracy load is 3917 fps at the muzzle. That is in LC 17 brass.
I have never seen published data for Lever in this round, but it's just about a perfect match for this cartridge and 39/40gr bullets. Most other powders in my barrel were doing mid 3700-3800 fps, or were so bulky as to need vibration or long drop tubes to compress the charge (CFE223 was that way for me, not usually a favorite powder of mine anyway).
I have not found a favorite load for the 32gr V-max yet, but a couple powders like TAC and XTerminator get it into the 4100+ fps range, haven't broken 4200 fps yet without going over what I consider max. (Lever is too bulky for the 32gr, it tops out at about the same speed as the 40gr.) I plan to go back and experiment more with this one and Benchmark and 8208, but intend to mostly use the 40gr V-max and Lever going forward.
I ordered an 18" light contour 20 Practical barrel from Mcowen. I have a redding type S 223 FL die along with the redding decapping Redding Part #14206. I ordered .226 bushing as per the information I found on accurate shooter. I could not find the Redding bushing in stock for that size, so I ordered a wilson bushing after reading it would work in the Redding die. I have some 32g Nosler HP and some WC844.
The barrel is 8 weeks out.
The barrel is 8 weeks out.
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Before putting too much stock in what size bushing everyone lists measure your brass. I'm using Norma USA match brass, the neck wall thickness is .013. I have .225, .228 and .233 bushings. I feel the expander dragging on the way out with the .233, not a lot but enough. I also feel the expander touching going in on my .228 bushing. At $20 per bushing, I should have measured first and bought second. I wasn't sure what brass I would use when I bought the barrel.
.204+ (.013×2)-.002( spring back) got me to the .228 bushing. I think I would have been better with a .235 or .236 for the first (intermidiate) step down.
I've only tried benchmark under 32 grain vmax in my WOA 24". Its accuracy is impressive so far and such a pussy cat pleasure to shoot. I'm running a super 42 spring and H2 buffer as that was what was in the lower and it cycles fine.
I used Hornady data for .20 Tactical and am at the max load without pressure signs. I may bump it up and see what it will do speed wise but I am far from unhappy with where it's at now.
The 24" is rifle length, if I went shorter I would probably go as long as I could just because.
.204+ (.013×2)-.002( spring back) got me to the .228 bushing. I think I would have been better with a .235 or .236 for the first (intermidiate) step down.
I've only tried benchmark under 32 grain vmax in my WOA 24". Its accuracy is impressive so far and such a pussy cat pleasure to shoot. I'm running a super 42 spring and H2 buffer as that was what was in the lower and it cycles fine.
I used Hornady data for .20 Tactical and am at the max load without pressure signs. I may bump it up and see what it will do speed wise but I am far from unhappy with where it's at now.
The 24" is rifle length, if I went shorter I would probably go as long as I could just because.
You feel the expander touching going in on the .228? How does the size of the bushing affect it, on the way in?
Not sure, I'm going to remove the expander and take some measurements.
I have found H-322 to be nirvana for the 32gr Vmax. IIRC, somewhere around 24grs over a Rem 7.5 in LC brass yielded 3950fps out of a 20" Douglas barrel.
The only way I can think of that the expander would rub, before the bushing has touched the neck, would be the neck wall is so thick it can't expand enough to make the hole in the neck as big as the diameter of the bullet when fired. The expander ball is smaller than the bullet. It should not touch going into a fired case. Unless the neck is too tight or brass is too thick.
Are you talking about sizing down new brass?
Like I said, I've got some measuring to do. That will include the expander ball itself as well as the case mouth diameter after each bushing. Also I'm going to see if I can measure the run out on the decapping stem.
Just trying to understand what you meant. Do you mean the ball drags on the way in after its been sized with the .233, or that fired brass drags on the way in when you use the .226 bushing?
Measured (as in doublechecked) all the die components and everything is marked correctly. Once fired .223 Norma USA brass neck ID is .226-.227 with a neck thickness of .013. The OD is .256 I removed the expander and sized with the .233 bushing and then checked the ID, the ID now measures .200 with .014 wall thickness! So yeah! the expander is dragging on the way out. After the .228 bushing it still measures .200 ID.
Suggestions?
Apologies to the OP, we didnt mean to derail your thread. Hopefully you find this info useful once you get your barrel.
Suggestions?
Apologies to the OP, we didnt mean to derail your thread. Hopefully you find this info useful once you get your barrel.
@supercorndogs Just saw you ARE the OP. Now I dont feel as bad.
I'm getting similar brass measurements with LC and Hornady Match brass.
I've used type s dies on .308 and .300WM but this is my 1st "wildcat". I expect the worst thing that can happen is the necks may fatigue sooner.
I'm getting similar brass measurements with LC and Hornady Match brass.
I've used type s dies on .308 and .300WM but this is my 1st "wildcat". I expect the worst thing that can happen is the necks may fatigue sooner.
Just how much Lever we talkin'? I'm running Ramshot Tac in a 26" 8-twist .204 Ruger bolt gun, and seeing 4000-4100, but if you're seeing 39xx out of a 23.5" gas gun, that may be worth a look.
I went out yesterday and worked from 26.5-27.5, 26.5 was about 3700, 27 was about 3830 and 27.5 was about 3925. The groups didn't look very good yesterday but the wind was blowing pretty hard and I wondered if it was moving around my target frame. I also wondered if my big bag of Winchester brass I had dug out off the bin and sized annealed was the culprit, or if I had sized all that Win brass with the bigger bushing I have that didn't give me enough neck tension and didn't shoot well. Here is a five shot with brass ran through the die again, and a 5 shot with brass out of the bag @ 27.5g of WC844 with the 32g Noslers, out of my 18" barrel.
First group made me think I need to move my zero .1 mil right, second group confirmed it. The load I was shooting the other day was 25 or 26g at about 3650. I put some thicker lines on the outside of the targets and dot in the middle to make it easier to see, with my Weaver Tactical
2-10x36.
Sorry didn't want to go back and edit the picture on my computer to get the correct orientation. Just turn your computer on its side, blue tape is top left corner.
First group made me think I need to move my zero .1 mil right, second group confirmed it. The load I was shooting the other day was 25 or 26g at about 3650. I put some thicker lines on the outside of the targets and dot in the middle to make it easier to see, with my Weaver Tactical
2-10x36.
Sorry didn't want to go back and edit the picture on my computer to get the correct orientation. Just turn your computer on its side, blue tape is top left corner.
Interesting reading through this again. I was about to start with some 39g seirras and 8208. Now you have me wondering about the lever I just got for 6 arc.
If you want to run them fast (I mean, that's the whole point of 20 cal, right?) then use Lever. You can make 8208 work but it'll be a lot slower.
Important to understand that this is partly about burn rate, but also about energy density - Lever burn rate is a little slower than 8208 but it's packing more energy into that case because of its density. Loaded to the same peak pressure, Lever maintains pressure longer, which gives higher velocity. An 8208 load running the same velocity would have to be loaded to much higher peak pressure.
A little bit anyway. I worked a load with mp501 which was pretty close to lever charge vs velocity in the arc, but seemed closer to cfe223 in the 6.5 grendel. I got up to 29.5g of powder in the practical with no pressure but didn't want to put 30g of powder in a 223 sized case.
MP501 is not Lever. You can't pretend to know what Lever will do based on results of some other powder, especially when you stopped just based on a number that you thought might be too much. Gotta learn to read pressure signs instead of guesswork like that; if you did you'd find out that 8208 won't even come close in this application.
When I said a little bit anyway. I was talking about your comment about speed. Yes I like speed, but its not my only consideration loading a cartridge. Speed vs how economical the load is. I.E 27g gets another 30 rounds per pound vs 30g. So my only consideration when loading a mass prairie dog shooting load is not speed. And that is also why I said. I didn't have pressure but i dont want to shoot 30g of powder in a 223 sized case. I shot a 100 40g vmax with a low charge of wc844 barley topping 3400fps and despite being slow performed quite well for their purpose. 25g vs 27. That another 20 rounds per pound.
This is my take on it as well. I use benchmark now, but only because H322 is unobtanium(24 vs 26 gr). With that, im in the process of switching to N1330/133 for the 20P and 223. Cant believe how much cheaper it is than Hodgdon these days. Everyone raves about good accuracy also, so hopefully it works out.
Agree with you there; H322 is nirvana in the 20 Practical/Tactical.
I like wc844 in the practical and 223 for 50-55g bullets. I am just running out. If I saw some h335 or 844 cheap I would certainly grab it. Easy to meter ball powders are nice. 8208 meters pretty well. I assume lever does. I haven't even opened my jug yet. Been waiting for Rainer to warrenty my 6arc barrel for 7 weeks now. I might shoot all my 501 before I open the lever. Been messing with my grendel I might shoot all my mp501 before Rainer gets me all my stuff back. 
I have a compass lake 20 inch rifle gas length 20P. It’s an amazing shooting rifle! Too bad they closed their doors.
If you're trying to use smaller powder charges, then Lever is not the powder for you; it's a dense powder that does require heavier charge weights. The benefits of Lever are top velocity (really, nothing else comes close with 39-40gr bullets in the 20 Tac or Prac) with easy accuracy, and it meters great being a fine ball powder, but the downsides are heavier charge weights and a lot more gas produced (ARs need to be tuned for it). However, you said you already have Lever, so IMO a powder you have and can replace has some advantages right now over a powder like 8208 that's hard to get.
I do suggest that if you try Lever, go ahead and push it up near max, because that's where it gives the best consistency and accuracy. If you try to use Lever at lower pressure the results can be pretty mediocre, both accuracy and consistency in velocity readings. Remember to tune the gas system for Lever if you're shooting an AR of course, otherwise you'll see false pressure signs way before hitting max pressure, and it can be pretty hard on the bolt from unlocking while still under pressure.
And since you said you got Lever for the 6 ARC - all of the above applies for that one too. It's also good with heavy bullets in the 6.5 Grendel and 5.56 too, FYI, with all the same caveats.
If you want a really economical load in that 20 Tactical though, with 8208, try it with the cheap Speer TNT bullet. I haven't bought any in a couple years, but it was the cheapest out there by a big margin. It has a lower b.c. so it doesn't reach out as far, but it's accurate and should pair well with small charges of 8208 or even Benchmark (which is currently available) for an economical load.
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