- Thread starter Two Shoes
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Just because its a 223, does not mean you are required to shoot in the Tactical division. Just compete in the open division and shed your limitations.
How far is 2.521 away from the lands?
Yeah I know that but you are handicapping yourself a lot shooting any .223 in open. No reason to do it and why I stick to Tac for it. Have other rifles for open. Difference between a 80 and 75 will do nothing for you in matches.
Well maybe if we only consider 80s as the upper limit...
I've stated this before in this thread, but I'll state it again... With a 26 inch tube I run 90 grain A Tips at 2900 FPS G1 BC is 0.585. Even the 88 ELDM has a G1 of 0.545. Not a problem with a long throat... Get them seated out around 2.600" OAL or so. Mag mods are easy so you can run it in a repeater.
Go ahead and compare those ballistics to any of the small 6s.
Most of the 6 BR, 6 Dasher crowd are running 2800 FPS with a lower BC.
The only advantage to a 6 is a slight, slightly easier to spot impact and a slightly more visible trace.
The downside of these 6s is more recoil... Call 6mm recoil light if you want, but its a whole lot more than a 223 with 90s.
More and more long range targets in PRS are fitted with electronic hit indicators, so you're not dropping points over that.
If you want to debate fundamental accuracy between say a 22BR and a 223... well take a look at the reamers for the two and design your neck and free bore for your 223 reamer like they would on a 22 BR. Use the same long tight throat. Then accuracy characteristics will be the same.
All I'm saying is that if I'm dropping points out there, it's not because its a 223.
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Well that's cool, but I've never seen a prize table where they call the top Open class then top Tac and alternate down the list... which they really should BTW.
It's always gone by total score. So all that matters is where you are in the overall, as far as the prize table is concerned.
It's always gone by total score. So all that matters is where you are in the overall, as far as the prize table is concerned.
safe to say Rob doesn't shoot matches for a prize table
Well I guess if all you care about is the prize table then do whatever you want to get higher. I just like shooting Tac every now and then for the challenge and to shoot my rifles. But I have seen matches where they let top shooters in Divisions walk the table first so there is that.
Well sure... top shooters... maybe 1st, 2nd, 3rd...but what about everyone after that?
The fourth place Tactical guy might be 70th in the overall. So he gets a baseball cap while the forth place Open guy gets a new scope.
Sorry, I don't mean to derail this thread.
Maybe but may be higher. And again not about prize table but shooting against similar caliber/shooters in that division and shooting my rifles. Been shooting the sport 19 years now and used to chase the table. Now it's there but doesn't drive me at all.
I'd disagree with that part. It'd be a first place if I hadn't shot the wrong target 3 times like a dumbass. I stopped shooting 2 day prs matches for many reasons but Mark Rosset finished top 3 a few times with a bare muzzle 223 back in 2015/2016 time frame. I'm not going to pretend I'd be able to finish top 3 at a national level 2 day match but thats me not the fault of the cartridge. It's pretty easy to get a 223 to match up ballistically to a 6br and also a 6 Dasher if you have the right barrel length and chamber.
Disagree all you guys want. I really don't care. Go shoot your .223s against the others in Open. Less Tac shooters. LOL Knock yourselves out as it's not that big of a deal but if it was that great of an idea don't you think others would be hopping on the bandwagon? LOL
I guess this is the whole ".223 is the new best Open class cartridge" thread now. LOL
I guess this is the whole ".223 is the new best Open class cartridge" thread now. LOL
Calm down now lol. No one said best... Just competitive with the right build specs. I care about what works well not about what is popular. No reason to take it personal and over react.
LOL Not taking anything personal and actually think it's funny that you guys feel so strongly about the .223 being competitive. And you are wrong because in this sport everyone is running to the next best thing and if the .223 with a specific set up was going no recoil and 6mm ballistics then everyone would run to it. Again have fun with it in open.
And back to the reloading thread, better off for what? I use the 75 due to rules in PRS FOR TAC DIVISION but I am sure if you have the 80s they will work fine too. I would use the 75 data at the lower end and work up. What’s your oal to lands with 80s?
Just looked and Hodgdon has data for the 80grn SMK bullets and 8208. Says 19grn min and 21grn max.
Reloading Data Center
www.hodgdonreloading.com And back to the reloading thread, better off for what? I use the 75 due to rules in PRS FOR TAC DIVISION but I am sure if you have the 80s they will work fine too. I would use the 75 data at the lower end and work up. What’s your oal to lands with 80s?
Just looked and Hodgdon has data for the 80grn SMK bullets and 8208. Says 19grn min and 21grn max.
Reloading Data Center
I've heard people say the 75s are easier to tune than the 80s. No idea how true this is. I have the 80s so I'll probably run them. I'll try to get a measurement later and see what they jam at. That hodgon data sounds conservative. Hornady manual is 20.9gr-22.8gr of 8208 with a 75gr bullet.
11 tho
If I seat a bullet long and use the rifling to jam it in the rest of the way I'm coming up with 2.550. If I seat to 2.530 it still feels slightly tight to close the bolt. What do the experts say? I would think I'm safely far away enough at 2.530 but I'm not used to the bolt feel. This is with the 80 eld.
JBM has them listed on their website
www.jbmballistics.com
JBM - Bullet Length List
www.jbmballistics.com LOL Not taking anything personal and actually think it's funny that you guys feel so strongly about the .223 being competitive. And you are wrong because in this sport everyone is running to the next best thing and if the .223 with a specific set up was going no recoil and 6mm ballistics then everyone would run to it. Again have fun with it in open.
Oh I see, so you don't actually "think" for yourself, you just mimic whatever your chosen hero does. Kind of like a parrot that just repeats sounds he likes, but does not know the meaning... huh.
Sarcasm aside, and follow the leader claim aside ... Please explain from a ballistic perspective how a 223... no not your short throated short mag POS 75 grainer... A long throated 88 or 90 grainer going upwards of 2800 FPS is not competitive ballistically against the popular small 6MMs.
The past does not predict the future, so what guys have been using does not direct what winners of the future will be using. Once upon a time the winners swore by 6.5 Creed... no longer the case.... Evolution happens despite those who don't want it to.
My guess is that if any of the top guys were to shoot my rifle in his next PRS match, his score would not be any lower, or possibly even better.
Am I going to win my next PRS match? Very doubtful at my age, but its not because of anything to do with my rifle or ballistic performance.
Dude horse is dead. Stop beating it. This is a reloading thread. Start your own “.223 is best PRS round” thread.
More like "Look I discovered what F-TR guys have been doing with the 223 for a couple of decades and need to claim it's my own idea to feel special on the internet."
Need a little help please - brainstorming on how to get better sd and es with the 223.
Maybe it's just my brass. I didn't have enough Lapua to load up for a match so I did a full prep with a bunch of wolf brass I had.
I have an 8lb jug of Shooter's World Precision - so that's what I'm using.
Loaded up 75 elds with Fed primers, and got good speed but sd and es weren't great - around 15 SD.
I'm out of 75s, but have 500 80 elds.
Loaded up 40 to test today. 24.8, 25, 25.2, and 25.4 - 10 at each and cci 400 primers.
Best sd today was a 15.6. The best accuracy and sd combo was 17.4 SD with good accuracy.
Is it just my Wolf brass? I have read that fully prepped brass is as good as using Lapua.
My brass prep: anneal with a torch, full length size, mandrel expand, trim, chamfer, debur, ream primer pockets, uniform primer pockets, and debur flash hole - this took forever for 200 pieces.
Charge is dropped with a Uniflow, and then I trickle up to the desired weight using an RCBS 505 beam or a Lyman beam scale.
I'm using a Forster micrometer seating die on an old Lyman All American turret (very strong press).
Thanks for any help.
Maybe it's just my brass. I didn't have enough Lapua to load up for a match so I did a full prep with a bunch of wolf brass I had.
I have an 8lb jug of Shooter's World Precision - so that's what I'm using.
Loaded up 75 elds with Fed primers, and got good speed but sd and es weren't great - around 15 SD.
I'm out of 75s, but have 500 80 elds.
Loaded up 40 to test today. 24.8, 25, 25.2, and 25.4 - 10 at each and cci 400 primers.
Best sd today was a 15.6. The best accuracy and sd combo was 17.4 SD with good accuracy.
Is it just my Wolf brass? I have read that fully prepped brass is as good as using Lapua.
My brass prep: anneal with a torch, full length size, mandrel expand, trim, chamfer, debur, ream primer pockets, uniform primer pockets, and debur flash hole - this took forever for 200 pieces.
Charge is dropped with a Uniflow, and then I trickle up to the desired weight using an RCBS 505 beam or a Lyman beam scale.
I'm using a Forster micrometer seating die on an old Lyman All American turret (very strong press).
Thanks for any help.
223 is a tough one to get low deviation
The lowest that I have personally seen with my loads was 9, and that was with Lapua brass, Federal 205 primers, and 8208.
On edit: 5 FPS is equivalent to about 1" at 500 yards. Wind is going to be way more of an influence on the little bullet than the velocity.
The lowest that I have personally seen with my loads was 9, and that was with Lapua brass, Federal 205 primers, and 8208.
On edit: 5 FPS is equivalent to about 1" at 500 yards. Wind is going to be way more of an influence on the little bullet than the velocity.
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Oh now that's funny. I have repeatedly posted links on SH (for the benefit of disbelievers) to a PDF article in the DCRA magazine from 20 years ago that discussed heavies in the 223 with similar ballistics. Guys like yourself seem to assume I'm floating this on my own and have no background. Let's dismiss my role as a Canadian 223 F Class shooter at the time the DCRA article was published running said loads.
I have never claimed this to be of my own design as many of us shared knowledge before and since this period.
My contribution is simply in showing guys that (F Class style) heavies can be used in a repeater, (with a 20 year old F Class chamber) by a simple mag modification using a Rem 700 compatible action.
I am aware of nobody else who is doing so, at least who did not get the idea from me.
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It's not all that hard. All you really need is an Analytical balance and good reloading practics but as you pointed out, on steel an inch does not mean much. It also helps to have a tight neck and a tight freebore.
Actually wind with 88s or 90s will be identical or even less than 105s from a 6 BR or 6 Dasher.
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Please share your brass prep method. Getting low sd's and es depends on (outside of case geometry) brass prep and accuracy of charge weight.
If I'm wrong let me know. I'm here to learn. thanks
Yeah, I'm aware of your background in F-class.
Which begs the question, why did you confine yourself to 223 when shooting F-Class? Assuming you were shooting F-T/R, why not shed your limitations and shoot F-open?
If you shot in F-T/R, you willingly accepted the limitations placed on you by the rules, presumably because you wanted to. And yet for some reason you decided to derail this thread to bag on Rob because he chooses to shoot a 223 in a category limited by the rules, and then you insult him when he states he does so because he enjoys it.
I was busting your balls because you seemed to be more interested in arguing, insulting other members, and derailing the thread than contributing anything about actually loading the 223.
As you say, shooting heavy bullets in a 223 isn't a new idea, even in "PRS." There have been guys doing well at and occasionally winning club matches in my region while shooting 88s and 90s out of 223s and 223 AIs for several years. I've played with both, and have thoroughly enjoyed my 223 Ackley with 88s.
Just my opinion, but the post you made a few pages back, where you discussed your loads, brass choices, how you season brass to keep from ruining it on the first firing, etc. was a great contribution to the thread. You should post more like that.
This is a .223/5.56 load thread. You guys want to compare dick sizes and metals make another thread. You've been warned.
Actually only one who came in swinging his dick and running his suck off topic.
If it's still tight chambering at the 2.530" then I would back it off a little more. The ELDs don't mind a jump so I don't think it would hurt accuracy but might be safer. How much of the bullet is in the case at the 2.530" OAL?
What are some good powders for lighter bullets? I'm going to load up some 53 vmax for varmints. I'd like to save my 8208 for the heavier rounds, and ideally I'd like to choose a ball powder for the lighter bullets. Something I don't have to bother with trickle charging when loading larger quantities of ammo. There's a lot of good powders for 223 it seems so maybe it doesn't matter much. I'm looking at tac and w748 mainly.
I know it's a broad question but has anyone gotten the TMK 77 from Sierra to shoot "good". For me they shoot on a good day .4" and on a bad .6", so let's say on avg .5" MOA.
I started with them jammed and got my best accuracy around 11 tho back. Granted I didn't test every length back to say mag length (I'm at 2.41" currently ). Perhaps I should have another go at mag length and work longer?
Now the 80SMKs... love em. They shoot .225" all day long.
So, any sharpies have great suscess with the 77TMK?
I started with them jammed and got my best accuracy around 11 tho back. Granted I didn't test every length back to say mag length (I'm at 2.41" currently ). Perhaps I should have another go at mag length and work longer?
Now the 80SMKs... love em. They shoot .225" all day long.
So, any sharpies have great suscess with the 77TMK?
Are you sure your bumping the shoulder enough? Ive been messing with the 80s, have some 75s to try next. You really need to get the 80s and especially the 88s going fairly fast to be worth shooting in a 223. Hard to beat that 75. Ive been shooting the 80s at some 600y high power. Right around 3050ish maybe more with a 26" barrel. Still experimenting but what I am reading online is they like a good amount of jump. Even around .050" some say. I think I'm jumping mine about .030 I have to check though. I loaded 10 rounds each 75 and 80 ELD with an increasing charge weight of N140, I shot the same point of aim while chronoing and looking for pressure. They made 2 cloverleaf 10 round groups despite being different charges.
The other horrible groups were high charges of CFE223 with hornady 75gr bthps loaded for an AR.
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I've got them shooting lights out in both a AR mag length and 26" bokt gun 223 wylde chamber...I'll post up some loaded development targets when I get to my pc but they hammer
