PRS Talk 22br for PRS

[Birddog6424]

Honest question, how consistent is a 22 cal barrel shooting near 3100 fps over a 3 day weekend?

And how many shots at a typical 2-day PRS match are at 1200 yards?

Aren't most targets in the 4-700 yard range, where a slower bullet with more trace would be more adventageous?

I havent shot a 3 day match, but I've never had accuracy issues over a two day match. The 22 Dasher in my example is still a BR variant. It's as accurate as the 6mm with an equivalent quality bullet.

And I'll answer your other question with a question. At 600 yards, ToF for the 110gr Atip is .738 seconds. For the 90gr Atip .688 seconds. Do you feel like there is a measurable difference in your ability to spot trace based on a ToF difference of .050 seconds?

The human eye and brain don't operate in those time frames. The ability to spot trace isn't as tied to velocity as people think. Its recoil control. If you can see it at 2880, then there is no mathematical reason as to why you can't see it at 3080. Again, to me, the question is, will you be able to see it at all, and will it tell you anything useful. You get .35 seconds to control your rifle, pick it up at apogee, and figure it out

 

[samb300]

A lot of places have zero ranges or a practice range on Friday for 3 day matches, so the rounds can add up.

I don't shoot 110s at 2880, that's too fast for my taste lol. More like 2780.

Time is time. Like my example with 100 vs 90 mph pitch, milliseconds do matter when your eye is trying to pick up a moving object.

It's semantics at this point. Do or don't shoot 22, no one cares and you'll be able to tell quickly if it matters when you add up your score at the end of a match.

OP - keep shooting the same cartridge you've been shooting, buy more bullets and practice. Changing to 22 won't make you any better, and since few pros at the top are shooting it you know it's not a magic solution or the edge you might think it is.

 

[Mormegil87]

What @samb300 said. 22 isnt some wonder pill that will take you from 20th to 5th. Buying more bullets, practicing with a specific cartridge, getting to intimately know that cartridge on the other hand, will take you from 20th to 5th.

I used to chase calibers and found it wasn't worth it.

 

[Birddog6424]

I absolutely agree with what you're saying Samb. I'm not trying to sell anyone on a 22. I'm trying to combat misconception. The ToF on your slower 2780fps 110gr Atip is .767. A .079 seconds ToF difference between my 3080fps Dasher. I'm just sayin' brother, it's not the speed... That difference in time of flight is imperceptible to us. It seems strange to try to wrap our minds around it. But the math is straight up. It goes back to what I said earlier, all the top shooters we've been listening to, and everyone repeating what they say. Slow down the bullet and spot your trace. Average PRS velocities have insufficient Time of Flight separation to be a factor. But we've bought into it and can't wrap our minds around it that it's recoil control, not velocity that allows you to see your trace.

And you're absolutely correct. There's no shortcuts or golden bullets. Pick what you like and run it. Have fun. Practice this stuff and see what works for you. It won't be the same for everyone.

 

[Birddog6424]

What @samb300 . 22 isnt some wonder pill that will take you from 20th to 5th. Buying more bullets, practicing with a specific cartridge, getting to intimately know that cartridge on the other hand, will take you from 20th to 5th.

I used to chase calibers and found it wasn't worth it.

Strongly agree

 

[samb300]

According to a 2014 MIT study, the brain can process an image in as little as 13 milliseconds, so we can perceive a difference of 0.079 seconds quite easily.

Shoot a 25 Dasher at 2600 fps then a 22 Creed at 3200 fps...there's zero chance you'll say the ToF difference is imperceptible.

 

[Birddog6424]

According to a 2014 MIT study, the brain can process an image in as little as 13 milliseconds, so we can perceive a difference of 0.079 seconds quite easily.

Shoot a 25 Dasher at 2600 fps then a 22 Creed at 3200 fps...there's zero chance you'll say the ToF difference is imperceptible.

I've seen some of the studies on perception. Flashing an image across a blank screen to a college kid sitting in a chair with no other stimulation around allows the mind to operate exponentially faster than if you were to attempt the same test on a person standing on a sidewalk in New York City during rush hour.

Or.

While looking through a scope on the top of a recoiling rifle trying to spot a miniscule piece of copper colored lead streaking through the air away from you at supersonic speeds

There is always a point where extreme comparisons begin to show a valid argument. 2600fps to 3200fps certainly approaches that. But that isn't my comparison. I'm talking average PRS speeds.

 

[Mormegil87]

I may be way off but maybe its like trying to hit a baseball. A hitter has something like 150 milliseconds to recognize the pitch (extremely difficult to do), decide whether or not to swing, all will getting the bat to cross the strike zone in the the 10 milliseconds it takes the ball to cross the plate.

I reckon, it's extremely difficult to determine the difference between an 92mph fast ball, an 86mph change up and an 83 mph slider. Yet the great hitters some how do it.

 

[samb300]

100 mph = 0.409 seconds from mound to home plate

83 mph = 0.488 seconds (0.079 seconds slower than a 100 mph pitch)

You're telling me that you, the batter, and everyone else in the stands can't tell the difference between a fastball and a changeup?

 

[Mormegil87]

100 mph = 0.409 seconds from mound to home plate

83 mph = 0.488 seconds (0.079 seconds slower than a 100 mph pitch)

You're telling me that you, the batter, and everyone else in the stands can't tell the difference between a fastball and a changeup?

I sure as shit can't. I was a terrible hitter.

 

[samb300]

Maybe Vibbert is like a great hitter. He said in one of his podcast episodes he could tell the difference between 100fps when looking through the scope at a 6mm, which is why he shoots at 2800 fps. Same as a batter that can recognize a pitch, aim, and swing a bat all within the time it takes for a human to blink.

 

[samb300]

I sure as shit can't. I was a terrible hitter.

The last sentence wasn't directed at you, I was typing my comment as you posted yours

And I'm ignoring pitch movement, it's not like I can shoot a Slider or a Knuckleball out of my 6 GT lol

 

[Mormegil87]

Obviously it's conjecture but the comparison of time may have some relevancy. Like you mentioned, Jake seems to be able to tell the difference between 100fps, I have know what to prove it or disprove it. It's similar to hearing Christian Yelich say that the baseball looks like a beachball coming at him the year he won MVP. The human brain can do some crazy shit, especially once it's been trained to do those things.


Try shooting those 110 Atips in a 10 twist barrel and you'll have yourself some knuckleballs flying from your GT lol

 

[samb300]

Obviously it's conjecture but the comparison of time may have some relevancy. Like you mentioned, Jake seems to be able to tell the difference between 100fps, I have know what to prove it or disprove it. It's similar to hearing Christian Yelich say that the baseball looks like a beachball coming at him the year he won MVP. The human brain can do some crazy shit, especially once it's been trained to do those things.


Try shooting those 110 Atips in a 10 twist barrel and you'll have yourself some knuckleballs flying from your GT lol

How about a Franklin Armory Reformation with 0-twist straight cut rifling

 

[Birddog6424]

100 mph = 0.409 seconds from mound to home plate

83 mph = 0.488 seconds (0.079 seconds slower than a 100 mph pitch)

You're telling me that you, the batter, and everyone else in the stands can't tell the difference between a fastball and a changeup?

Good analogy, i love baseball. The change up designed to fool.hitters, and it works. People don't pick it up and they whiff. Batting averages being what they are I would say offspeed pitches wreck batters. They are far more likely to swing when they shouldn't than would they should. As a batter you start your swing before the ball leaves the pitchers hand. You then have to decide to continue or stop.

Pete Rose had 4200 hits, more than anyone in baseball. But every 4th at bat on average he struck out. Had a lifetime .300 average. Failed to get on base over 10,000 times. But the man could hit. And as proven by the stats, and by the numbers you posted, batting is hard.

I cant speak for you guys. But I certainly hope I don't have to make any important decisions in .079 seconds.

Edit; And Pete Rose should be in the Hall of Fame damnit!!

 

[kthomas]

Honest question, how consistent is a 22 cal barrel shooting near 3100 fps over a 3 day weekend?

And how many shots at a typical 2-day PRS match are at 1200 yards?

Aren't most targets in the 4-700 yard range, where a slower bullet with more trace would be more adventageous?

That's what a tuner is for bro.

You can retune your rifle before every stage for peak precision.

Bye bye inconsistencies.

#tunerbois

 

[Lawnboi]

If the RO can’t see the impact/plate move cause your shooting a teeny bullet should you still get the points you argued?

This is not pointed at anyone here, Iv just seen it happen.

 

[Mormegil87]

If the RO can’t see the impact/plate move cause your shooting a teeny bullet should you still get the points you argued?

This is not pointed at anyone here, Iv just seen it happen.

I dont believe a shooter should. The shooter chose the caliber knowing full well the implications.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

In today's matches, there are typically no less than 5-7 shooters on glass during any particular stage. If an RO doesn't see it, but the guys that are seasoned shooters can (b/c they know what to look for), they'll call the impact and the shooter should most certainly get the point. The other shooters are the competitors of the guy shooting the stage. They aren't going to give anyone hits they didn't earn.
This also goes into my rant of self ROing squads, but ill save that for the appropriate thread.

 

[Lawnboi]

In today's matches, there are typically no less than 5-7 shooters on glass during any particular stage. If an RO doesn't see it, but the guys that are seasoned shooters can (b/c they know what to look for), they'll call the impact and the shooter should most certainly get the point. The other shooters are the competitors of the guy shooting the stage. They aren't going to give anyone hits they didn't earn.
This also goes into my rant of self ROing squads, but ill save that for the appropriate thread.

The matches I shoot at regularly are self RO’d and regularly have multiple people on glass. It still happens. Not saying that anyone is right or wrong, don’t really care all that much, just saying Iv seen it. I myself have had a hard time seeing impacts of 22cal bullets on some targets with a 60x swaro spotter.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

The matches I shoot at regularly are self RO’d and regularly have multiple people on glass. It still happens. Not saying that anyone is right or wrong, don’t really care all that much, just saying Iv seen it. I myself have had a hard time seeing impacts of 22cal bullets on some targets with a 60x swaro spotter.

Oh it is definitely harder to see shit from a 22cal bullet at any real distance. I get that. But people's ability to spot are not created equal. I'm not even the best at it.

 

[Lawnboi]

Oh it is definitely harder to see shit from a 22cal bullet at any real distance. I get that. But people's ability to spot are not created equal. I'm not even the best at it.

I definitely have a lot of work to do when it comes to becoming better at spotting. Just sharing what Iv seen. I shoot the same place I believe that a few others in this thread do, where if you don’t hit the target, you really can’t tell what the hell happened. Atmospherics, and weight of the plate have both played roles at distance, where sometimes it’s hard to even see the splash and movement created by a 6br. Unfortunately squads are not always filled with top shooters, and at times not everyone is able to spot ideally due to prop position in relation to the target. At 750+ on a heavy big target already grey from the day, in some haze or mirage, without a magneto marker, 22 cal bullets just disappear.

For this reason, even for a club level match as a mid pack shooter, I wouldn’t choose a 22 cal. Unknown brings question, question sometimes brings arguing and arguing most of the time leaves the individual looking like a jackass. I see it as bringing the right tool for the job.

I agree with above that if if the RO, and or squad mates spotter can’t call your impact, points should not be awarded.

 

[MDof2]

If the RO can’t see the impact/plate move cause your shooting a teeny bullet should you still get the points you argued?

This is not pointed at anyone here, Iv just seen it happen.

To quote our MD: "If you're shooting 223 and the RO/Spotters can't spot your hits, [out at the 1k yd targets] you should consider a different caliber"

 

[Birddog6424]

Suddenly in comparison, everyone is acting like 6mm rounds going 2850fps are the cats meow for spotting. I remember all the bitching 5 years ago when they started becoming popular, and the 308 & 6.5 guys said they were crap because you couldn't see hits or misses. I distinctly remember shooting a 308 and being one of the bitchers

I am sure I've said it already on this thread, but here goes again. According to math and physics, and all that other complicated shit we use to describe what goes on in our world, energy on target of a good 22 caliber PRS round isn't much different than a .243. The 22 is far closer to the 6mm than the 6mm is to the 6.5.

But this misconception just won't die. So here it is..... again. Physics at 1000 yards..

*85.5gr Berger LRHT @ 3040fps (my little 22BR velocity) = 534ftlbs of energy on the target
Dashers and GTs are faster.

*105gr Berger Hybrid @2880fps = 538ftlbs of energy on target

*140gr ELDM @ 2740fps (my slow 6.5 gasser) = 688ftlbs of energy

I absolutely get it that a guy shooting a 223 is hard to spot with a lighter slower bullet. But a 22 BR/Dasher/GT has the same/similar energy on target as a 6 BR/Dasher/GT.

 

[Mormegil87]

Bigger bullet, more splash possibly?

 

[Birddog6424]

Bigger bullet, more splash possibly?

I'm open to anyone explaining it however they choose. But I'm the open minded guy who's put many thousands of 85s, 88s, and 95s downrange. And I just dont see a difference.

And I do believe it's mis perception. Everyone expects less splash from the 22 so that's what they see. I shot a match yesterday, I saw a lot of "no calls " on the 6mms. We all do at every match. But we forget those and remember that no call on that little ole' 22, because that's exactly what we expected. We were having a hell of a time seeing any splash on a 983yd target yesterday. Lots of mirage, no flasher, just a quick one day match. One squad had some argument over the calls. Had I known it would be a problem I would have stuck a flasher on it. I was shooting the only 22, was hitting the amateur side of the plate and it was swinging. No issues.

It's not just 22s, it's 6mms too. Again, they are almost identical. People just can't seem to wrap their minds around it.

In 3 years of competition with my 22BR and 15k rounds fired through it, I have only one incident where I thought I hit the plate and didn't get the call. At a club match on a 900 yard target I though it hit a big 18x22 plate right at the hanger hook, no ping, no movement. But I was sure I saw the bullet splash. Spotters didn't see it.

In my experience, if people aren't seeing it hit the plate, it's extremely likely it's not hitting the plate. If I hit the plate with my BR it's just as visible as any 6mm. It will move it as much and it will ping just as loud as a 6. Same energy on target. Not that either of them have much..

 

[sab567]

Ill just put that here, as some people were talking about splash compared to other calibers.
You can also see traces in the video.