22LR ammo Question

[chevy_man]

I plan to, but that has absolutely zero relevance to what this thread was supposed to be about.

If I had seen three pages of 'yes I tested XYZ ammo and the ES was 20 and the SD was 9' then I would be happy. That was literally the only thing I was asking.

There is no room for opinion or conjecture in that kind of question. (or so I thought).

In any case I bowed out of this thread because in my opinion it went completely away from what the intention was. A thread full of hard data would have been nice.

You missed the point entirely.

Rimfire ammo varies greatly from lot to lot. There is zero correlation between what I'll record in my gun vs yours.

I ran all the match ammo through a Chrono to get better data for dope. It means nothing to anyone as it only records that particular rifle in those conditions.

I get different results from different guns. Every single time. I even get different results from the same gun season to season.

If there was a better way, professionals would have done it by now. They still lot test and buy the best lot of Tenex or X-act they can.


You think you have new ideas. They've been rehashed thousands of times already by guys thinking they can cheat the system and find the magic ammo. That's not reality. There is no magic ammo. There is factory lot testing that allows you to pay more for consistency, but even then they do custom lot testing for a reason.

 

[alamo5000]

No what you wanted was for everyone else do the work for you. Then you pick based on their data lmfao that's not how this game works. What works for them may not work for you. Every barrel is different and every lot of ammo is different and every box is different within that same lot of ammo. Go do the work yourself nothing in this game comes for free

Dude, fuck off. The whole entire notion of a board like this is to SHARE INFORMATION. I cannot purchase every single type of ammo out there. If in the odd chance that one person tested A, B, and C, and another person tested G, Z, and Y ammo, if we cooperate with each other we can get solid data.

 

[alamo5000]

It can't be taken as a given that one shooter's chronograph data remains valid for other shooters.

The data obtained over the chronograph from one variety of ammo, say CX, will vary from one lot to the next. It may also vary from one rifle to the next.

It will be better than NO DATA. All I was looking for is a better idea for a starting point, ie to narrow choices from 50 candidates down to say 10 or 15 candidates.

 

[alamo5000]

You missed the point entirely.

Rimfire ammo varies greatly from lot to lot.

Don't care. Didn't ask. I asked for hard data.

 

[lash]

I am not totally brand new to any of this. I specifically asked for hard data. Some people provided just that. I wasn't asking anything at all about anything else. I wanted measurable data and with that data I could pick 5 to 10 options and do my own tests.

If the responses here did not come from a chronograph then in this context I am not interested in it. That may sound harsh, but I am interested in those responses, but in a different context. In this thread I wanted hard data covering multiple brands of ammo.

In any case what's done is done. I am not crying about it, just bitching a little bit.

Like I said. You don’t understand what’s being said and until you do, you can bitch all you want and it will not help you at all.

 

[justin amateur]

If y'er looking for documented data, try this link...

Chrony numbers, conditions, rifle used, setup and every brand available tried

50 at 200

I think I've come up with a useful scenario...maybe. :rolleyes: 50 shots at 200 yards, rimfire, whatever setup makes you happy. 22lr, 17 hmr, 22wmr, 17hm2, 17wsm, all brands, all types. Full benchrest setup, bipod, bags, or one-piece test rest, it doesn't matter. Grab a chunk of cardboard...

www.rimfirecentral.com

 

[lash]

Good luck being an asshole here.

 

[chevy_man]

Don't care. Didn't ask. I asked for hard data.

I can tell you I had one lot of Eley target with SDs of 18 in my 597hb.

The next lot was SDs of 70.

In my b14r both lots were in the 40s.

This is why your data collection is worthless. I could only tell you about the 1 lot that does amazing in 1 gun. I bought every box of that lot I could find for that gun 5 years ago. It's gone, and you'll never be able to use it.

Now you go test and discover the lot you buy is 80. How does this help you?

 

[chevy_man]

It will be better than NO DATA. All I was looking for is a better idea for a starting point, ie to narrow choices from 50 candidates down to say 10 or 15 candidates.

It should have taken you about 5 minutes of reading to discover that you should test center x, sk lrm, sk rm, and eley match.

Or hit the easy button and send your rifle in to a Lapua or Eley test center.

 

[BisSilent]

I can tell you I had one lot of Eley target with SDs of 18 in my 597hb.

The next lot was SDs of 70.

In my b14r both lots were in the 40s.

This is why your data collection is worthless. I could only tell you about the 1 lot that does amazing in 1 gun. I bought every box of that lot I could find for that gun 5 years ago. It's gone, and you'll never be able to use it.

Now you go test and discover the lot you buy is 80. How does this help you?

SDs like that are horrible!!! I hope you threw that junk away.

 

[chevy_man]

SDs like that are horrible!!! I hope you threw that junk away.

I had some CCI green tag that was over 100. It was like it was 2 different lots in the same box. If I separated both groups it was down to 30, but yeah, that was given to the kids to burn up at the 50 yard range.


I have yet to find one that does under 10 every time. I figure as long as the extremes aren't crazy I'll run it.

 

[justin amateur]

Excuse me....in advance.

Which is more important? Standard Deviation or Extreme Spread?

Extreme spread is the worst two shots from the sample tested, right?

Standard deviation, 2 out of 3 shots, is the value to expect furthest from average, both high and low.

But the SD only applies to 2 out of 3 shots, right?
That means 1 out of 3 is going to be outside the SD.

If y'er ES is 80 fps and y'er SD 26 fps, that means y'er total deviation spread for 2 out of 3 shots is 52 fps.
In my book above 40 fps ES is practice ammo. So using SD as a value to establish ammo quality isn't good enough.
Extreme spread tells me more about the ammunition quality than the SD.

 

[BisSilent]

Excuse me....in advance.

Which is more important? Standard Deviation or Extreme Spread?

Extreme spread is the worst two shots from the sample tested, right?

Standard deviation, 2 out of 3 shots, is the value to expect furthest from average, both high and low.

But the SD only applies to 2 out of 3 shots, right?
That means 1 out of 3 is going to be outside the SD.

If y'er ES is 80 fps and y'er SD 26 fps, that means y'er total deviation spread for 2 out of 3 shots is 52 fps.
In my book above 40 fps ES is practice ammo. So using SD as a value to establish ammo quality isn't good enough.
Extreme spread tells me more about the ammunition quality than the SD.

The standard deviation equation gives me a headache so I like extreme spread better

It's hard to get great SDs with horrible ES so they do correlate

 

[grauhanen]

While ES has the appeal of being easy to understand, ES without SD gives only part of the picture. Since many chronographs will calculate the SD with no effort on the part of the user, it's worth knowing why SD offers a more complete picture of the ammo.

ES shows only what are the fastest and slowest rounds in the tested batch. Nothing else, nothing more.

SD is important about what it can reveal about the ammo that falls in between the fastest and slowest rounds. The lower the SD, the more the rounds are alike in MV, despite the fastest and slowest rounds.

To illustrate, consider two boxes of ammo, both with ES of 45 fps. Neither is outstanding by that figure alone.

If one box has an SD of 12 and the other an SD of 8, the first will have more rounds with MVs closer to the fastest and slowest rounds. In other words many rounds will be closer to the extreme ends of the ES range. The box with the smaller SD will have more rounds in the middle of spread, and fewer faster and slower ones.

It won't make a difference if the goal is to shoot an entire box at a certain distance and measure the difference in vertical spread (assuming it's only caused by MV variation). Here, if the fastest round strikes highest on target and the slowest strikes lowest, and vertical spread is all that matters, then ES alone is important and SD doesn't really matter.

Of course, most shooters don't unload a box of ammo at a time at one target. Some shooters try to get the smallest groups possible. In this case, the odds are better of getting five or ten random rounds from the box with the lower SD being more alike in MV. As a result these rounds have a better chance of having less vertical dispersion due to MV variation.

 

[Williwaw]

Of course, most shooters don't unload a box of ammo at a time at one target.

There is one guy around here who does it regularly.

I put more weight in SDs. Seems like ES is like measuring group size rather than scoring/measuring all the shots. And it isn't just that plus or minus one SD accounts for 2/3 of the rounds. Plus or minus 2SDs accounts for 96 percent. I'm more interested in 2SDs than ES.

 

[justin amateur]

Plenty of folks put the entire box downrange in a single session, G.
Multiple boxes in the course of the day, right?
Their problem is they like to cherry pick the results
so as to hide those shots that wander off independently.
Break up the box into little clusters on target for convenience/filtering.
And some of us figure every shot counts, not just the ones we like.

 

[Tempest 455]

Echo what's been said here about what "your" gun likes. Some Eley in my rifle shoots like crap. Some shoots good, some not.

Lapua Center X has been best in "my" rifle overall from 50-300 yards.

 

[mikeshaw2]

Build a list of candidates? You're way over thinking this.

Buy a selection of higher grade ammo from name brands like Eley, Lapue and RWS and find out what your gun likes. How some ammo performs in my rifle is not necessarily how it will perform in y.ours. Don't make this harder than it is.

Find something that seems to work well in your rifle then if you have time and resources to do so, lot test and buy a shitload of whatever lot shoots best.

I haven't been shooting rimfire for forever and a day like some of y'all, but in the short time I HAVE been shooting, I've realized that rimfire rifles are particular about what ammo they like.

For example: my BMR really liked Center X and SK in the red box but didn't take to Eley's offerings. I finally settled on TAC22 as something midrange that's 'accurate enough.' Tried some CCI std velocity out of the BMR and it did just about as well, so I switched to that

Changed rifles and the new 457 doesn't like the CCI nearly as much so I swapped back to TAC22.

So back to the OP: find *A* round your rifle likes and buy lots and just shoot that. When they change it, find something else

My $.02

M

 

[mikeshaw2]

It will be better than NO DATA. All I was looking for is a better idea for a starting point, ie to narrow choices from 50 candidates down to say 10 or 15 candidates.

actually, no. Ya gotta do the work to see what your rifle likes. There's no shortcuts

M

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Plenty of folks put the entire box downrange in a single session, G.
Multiple boxes in the course of the day, right?
Their problem is they like to cherry pick the results
so as to hide those shots that wander off independently.
Break up the box into little clusters on target for convenience/filtering.
And some of us figure every shot counts, not just the ones we like.

You mean like this 50 shots with a random lot at 100yds. even, there is a way to minimize all this SD & ES it is called tuning.

to the OP the best thing is to select higher grade ammo right now Lapua is King you will have better chances of finding ammo that will shoot consistent.

Lee