.284 win?

sandwarrior

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 21, 2007
6,393
1,801
in yooperland
Re: .284 win?

Yes, it will be quite satisfactory for shooting a mile on steel. I suggest a 28" barrel. 26" at the minimum.


Proof it can be done. It could have been done better that day if I had put the scope on with more travel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAnyljKPVgo

Keep in mind that was a 7mm-08 reaching one mile. A .284 is a bigger case.
 

Graham

Generalissimo
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 30, 2007
49,811
29
Michigan
Re: .284 win?

I use RE17 exclusively for it now. It's as accurate as 4831 and gives much more velocity. I haven't tried any other RE powders with it because I found an accurate, repeatable load at the velocity I need, so I stopped experimenting and now call it good: 52.0 RE17, Lapua Brass, CCI BR2 and 180 JLK VLD.

That's the other reason I like the .284: Easy to develop a good load, and no need to burn down barrels testing or keep your seating depth to within milimeters. Just run a .139 freebore and shoot 180's seated somewhere near the lands and the case mouth.
 

YoungGun6mm

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 18, 2011
61
0
32
Rapid City, SD
Re: .284 win?

I ask because I'm wanting to build a long range rig on a Savage target action and am considering the .284 and the 7mm RSAUM. I'm interested in the .284 for two reasons 1)standard bolt face and 2) I've read that barrel life is better on the .284 then on the short mags.
 

Graham

Generalissimo
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 30, 2007
49,811
29
Michigan
Re: .284 win?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YoungGun7.62</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've read that barrel life is better on the .284 then on the short mags. </div></div>52 grains of powder; same size hole.
wink.gif


The slope of the shoulder may also have something to do with barrel life, but the short answer is: Do you need a magnum? If you do, then get one. And if you get one know that barrels are part of the deal.
 

YoungGun6mm

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 18, 2011
61
0
32
Rapid City, SD
Re: .284 win?

Don't really need one. I just wanna rifle that has the ability to cleanly take deer/antelope to 1000 and be able to bang a steel plate at a mile. Would I be able to use a none magnum rated can with a .284 as well? I would like to purchase a suppressor for use on my .308 as well as this rifle.
 

sandwarrior

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 21, 2007
6,393
1,801
in yooperland
Re: .284 win?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YoungGun7.62</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I ask because I'm wanting to build a long range rig on a Savage target action and am considering the .284 and the 7mm RSAUM. I'm interested in the .284 for two reasons 1)standard bolt face and 2) I've read that barrel life is better on the .284 then on the short mags.</div></div>

The joy of the 7mm's (.284) is that with the heavy long range bullets, all you have to do is get the bullet out at a reasonable speed. It'll do the rest. Shoot them at moderate pressures instead of "as fast as you absolutely can" that barrel will last a very long time. A .284 fits that bill. Even my 7mm-08 fits that bill. It's got a 1-8" twist so I can handle up to 200 gr. VLD's. But with a compressed load of RE-19 (45.1) it goes about 2700 fps. with a 180.

FWIW, if you read the other threads, most guys are running 60-61 gr. of H4831SC and 61-65 gr. of H1000. You would be cutting off ten to twelve grains of powder by going with the .284 and giving up 150-200 FPS? I know with my 7 WSM I get 2930 w/62.5 gr. of H1000. But I load into the lands. Back it out like Graham said and you can run more and get more velocity if that's what it takes to find an accuracy node.
 

Graham

Generalissimo
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 30, 2007
49,811
29
Michigan
Re: .284 win?

Zak assures me that a Thunderbeast 30P-1 should work just fine with a .284.

It had better work...
laugh.gif
 

V-Ref

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jul 28, 2008
312
105
Texas
Re: .284 win?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use RE17 exclusively for it now. It's as accurate as 4831 and gives much more velocity. I haven't tried any other RE powders with it because I found an accurate, repeatable load at the velocity I need, so I stopped experimenting and now call it good: 52.0 RE17, Lapua Brass, CCI BR2 and 180 JLK VLD.

That's the other reason I like the .284: Easy to develop a good load, and no need to burn down barrels testing or keep your seating depth to within milimeters. Just run a .139 freebore and shoot 180's seated somewhere near the lands and the case mouth. </div></div>

Have you found RE17 to be a temperature tolerant/consistent powder? What MV/barrel length/barrel mfg/twist? Thank you.
 

a_bishop

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Aug 9, 2011
320
0
34
46106
Re: .284 win?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YoungGun7.62</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was looking more at the yankee hill and the AAC cans, although the TBAC 30ba is rather enticing
</div></div>

Don't waste your money go tbac the first time around.

I have a 7/300 wsm that is an absolute hammer. But if not for the fact I got a great deal on it. I would have went .284 win
 

kennyg

Full Member
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 27, 2011
288
13
USA
Re: .284 win?

I was in your shoes about six months ago and decided to go the 7 SAUM route.

I wanted to get the 180 bergers to 2950 without excessive pressure or an extremely long barrel. I was worried that reloader 17 would be my only option to meet this goal if I went with the .284, so I opted for the 7 SAUM. Basically I wanted a little more space in the boiler room. I can always download a bit if I want to save on barrel life. I think that there is more to barrel life then just grains burned/size of bore....but anyway good luck with your build and I think you will be happy with either caliber!
 

Jon Lester

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 7, 2004
1,826
26
Tazewell . Virginia
Re: .284 win?

Made a 2nd round hit at a mile in a comp with 168 Berger and a case full of 4831sc Via along action rem and 27"bartline. Yeah it will do it, but if I know I will be going that distance, I will arm myself with the 7wsm and 180s.
 
C

captrichardson

Guest
Re: .284 win?

Some good info on the .284

http://www.6mmbr.com/7mm284.html#284win

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek088.html

I REALLY want to build one for F-Open, great ballistics with the 7mm bullets, but not the recoil of a full magnum since you can't run any type of muzzle device. Per the individuals shooting them, the barrel life is also doing better than a short mag.

I know of a lot of people running a 7mm WSM in tactical matches, which I can see because you can run a can or brake to manage recoil, and barrel life is an accepted trade off for the ballistic advantage.

In F-Open, the 6.5mms are doing very well because you can handle the recoil from them without a muzzle device. However if it comes down to 6.5mm or 7mm, the 7mm bullets are going to win the ballistics battle. Issue you run into in F-Open is finding a 7mm that you can shoot and not end up needing shoulder surgery at the end of the year! I know of shooters who use a 7mm WSM in F-Open, but they are taking an @$$ kicking doing it. I have also seen them "shoot out a barrel" (groups open to +1 MOA) in less than 1,000 rounds!

The 7mm-08 is another good option, but it obviously can't match the performance of the .284.

Best of Luck,
M Richardson
 

michael_aos

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Re: .284 win?

I think you really hit the nail on the head. The 284 Win is a good choice if you can't or don't want to run a brake / can. Or perhaps if your suppressor isn't rated for a magnum cartridge.

Otherwise, I think most would be better served with the SAUM / WSM.

Personally I've been struggling with my 284 Winchester:

30" Rock Creek 1:8.5" twist
50-51gr Reloder 17
Berger 180gr Hybrid, .01 off the lands. ~3.19" COAL
Lapua 6.5-284 brass necked-up.
Redding competition seater die -- hasn't been upgraded to the VLD insert.

Velocity is good, in the range of 2800-2875, and chrono (ES / SD) numbers are good and accuracy @100yds is good, but...

I keep having occasional pressure signs like stiff bolt lift and shiny spot on the brass. Maybe 1 in 5, and it doesn't seem to be related to the charge (50.0gr / 50.5gr / 51.0gr).
 

sandwarrior

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 21, 2007
6,393
1,801
in yooperland
Re: .284 win?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Michael Aos</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think you really hit the nail on the head. The 284 Win is a good choice if you can't or don't want to run a brake / can. Or perhaps if your suppressor isn't rated for a magnum cartridge.

Otherwise, I think most would be better served with the SAUM / WSM.

Personally I've been struggling with my 284 Winchester:

30" Rock Creek 1:8.5" twist
50-51gr Reloder 17
Berger 180gr Hybrid, .01 off the lands. ~3.19" COAL
Lapua 6.5-284 brass necked-up.
Redding competition seater die -- hasn't been upgraded to the VLD insert.

Velocity is good, in the range of 2800-2875, and chrono (ES / SD) numbers are good and accuracy @100yds is good, but...

I keep having occasional pressure signs like stiff bolt lift and shiny spot on the brass. Maybe 1 in 5, and it doesn't seem to be related to the charge (50.0gr / 50.5gr / 51.0gr).
</div></div>

What dies are you using? I have the same problem with a number of different cases. I size them all the same, yet it always seems one or two don't get full length resized. I notice them as I seat. I go all the way to the bottom and those that don't size all the way have just a little bit of cam-over. Sure enough, there's a little bulge at the shoulder.

I try to make sure I anneal often enough. As this never seems to happen after I do that. Brass 'spring-back' is all I can attribute it to.
 

JC Steel

Gunny Sergeant
Commercial Supporter
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 12, 2008
3,369
226
38
Washington State
Re: .284 win?

Super good round. Great ballistics, much better barrel life than the magnums!! I would go for it. Get it on a long action though!
 

goober

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 13, 2008
196
0
58
Auckland , New Zealand
Re: .284 win?

What is themax load with RL17 for the 284 shehane ? I currently use 57gr ADI 2213sc 32"barrel at sea level Im getting 2760fps ast time I chronny'd-seems slow-accuracy is excellent
 

michael_aos

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Re: .284 win?

139gr Scenar @ 2782 (260 Remington) -vs- 180gr Hybrid @ 2796 (284 Winchester)

It isn't until about 550yds that the higher BC really starts to pay off.

With a DA of 6K' & 10mph wind, the 180gr is pushed ~7" less @ 800yds & ~10" less @ 900yds.
--
 

turbo54

Mr. 7mm
Full Member
Minuteman
Dec 10, 2010
4,999
13
41
Michigan
Re: .284 win?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jcvibby</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Super good round. Great ballistics, much better barrel life than the magnums!! I would go for it. Get it on a long action though! </div></div>

I've chosen to run 284 on a short action. I don't think, and hope it doesn't neuter the cartridge. My COAL will be limited to 2.985" with alpha mags, but I intend to load @ 2.950 or so to ensure the ammo doesn't bind/hang up in the mag. I can squeeze 59gr H4831sc into a Lapua case with 162amax @ 2.950". We'll see how it goes.

Will start a new thread with info and data once it's all together.
 

mavrick10_2000

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Jan 8, 2009
360
2,649
Oklahoma
Re: .284 win?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jcvibby</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Super good round. Great ballistics, much better barrel life than the magnums!! I would go for it. Get it on a long action though! </div></div>

I've chosen to run 284 on a short action. I don't think, and hope it doesn't neuter the cartridge. My COAL will be limited to 2.985" with alpha mags, but I intend to load @ 2.950 or so to ensure the ammo doesn't bind/hang up in the mag. I can squeeze 59gr H4831sc into a Lapua case with 162amax @ 2.950". We'll see how it goes.

Will start a new thread with info and data once it's all together. </div></div>

I think that's going to be a tight squeeze, even seated out to 3.1" But I'm interested in seeing your results.
 

YoungGun6mm

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 18, 2011
61
0
32
Rapid City, SD
Re: .284 win?

I was planning on building the rifle off of a single shot Savage target action so having to feed from a magazine isn't an issue.
 

sandwarrior

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 21, 2007
6,393
1,801
in yooperland
Re: .284 win?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: YoungGun7.62</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was planning on building the rifle off of a single shot Savage target action so having to feed from a magazine isn't an issue.</div></div>

You should be able to get about 3.2" max coal in that Savage short action. That leaves about 1.030" of ogive extended out of the case.
 

Graham

Generalissimo
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 30, 2007
49,811
29
Michigan
Re: .284 win?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone know the max load of r17 for the 284 or 284 shehane ??
temp 80f </div></div>A friend of mine once told me that the only true answer to a non-trivial queston is: It depends.
 

goober

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 13, 2008
196
0
58
Auckland , New Zealand
Re: .284 win?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone know the max load of r17 for the 284 or 284 shehane ??
temp 80f </div></div>A friend of mine once told me that the only true answer to a non-trivial queston is: It depends. </div></div>

mas o menos
 

sandwarrior

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 21, 2007
6,393
1,801
in yooperland
Re: .284 win?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone know the max load of r17 for the 284 or 284 shehane ??
temp 80f </div></div>A friend of mine once told me that the only true answer to a non-trivial queston is: It depends. </div></div>

mas o menos </div></div>

First, we need to know the bullet weight. Second, long or short action, so we can find how deep the bullet is seated. Third, How long will your throat be? All these things are factors in what the maximum recommended charge will be.

So, it isn't really less. Because you never gave enough (any) information.

FWIW, about 50 gr. behind a 175 gr. bullet and 53 gr. behind a 162, are the published maximums. It might take a little googling, but it's quite doable to find out.
 

goober

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 13, 2008
196
0
58
Auckland , New Zealand
Re: .284 win?

There ya go Sandwarrior , thats what happens when your working away on the phone and typing on a forum -you leave out all the good stuff lol.

Right 180gr Berger vld 6.5 x 284 lapua necked up to .284 win and blown out to a shehane .Actually I ask as I used both 54 and 55 gr of RL17 the other day and got some great velocitys and the cases didnt appear to have been over pressured .I only fired 5 off each and both had reasonable accuracy at 100 yards
 

sandwarrior

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 21, 2007
6,393
1,801
in yooperland
Re: .284 win?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There ya go Sandwarrior , thats what happens when your working away on the phone and typing on a forum -you leave out all the good stuff lol.

Right 180gr Berger vld 6.5 x 284 lapua necked up to .284 win and blown out to a shehane .Actually I ask as I used both 54 and 55 gr of RL17 the other day and got some great velocitys and the cases didnt appear to have been over pressured .I only fired 5 off each and both had reasonable accuracy at 100 yards</div></div>

Reloader 17 is really cool stuff. If you can, the best way to go for finding the best load with it, is to use your chronograph. Since it is so temperature tolerant, it also has a 'soft' pressure ceiling. You'll see extreme but erratic velocities, before you see pressure signs. I wish more powders were made this way. Because of the way it's made, it operates best right at it's maximum intended pressure. Which because of it's burn speed and pressure output (double base) should be matched to the right cartridges. I found it works well in .308, Mauser and 30-06 based cases. The .284 has almost the same capacity as the .280 but is more efficient as the powder-stack is shorter.

I didn't find it worked well at all in the WSSM's, for which it was intended. The wide body/neck ratio and steep shoulder used up the burn retardant and max pressures were achieved way before max velocities could be obtained. Going to a slower powder was a must. I found it worked okay in my WSM's (7mm, .300) but since I had what I felt were better loads set up the way I wanted, I quit experimenting.
 

michael_aos

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Re: .284 win?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Reloader 17 is really cool stuff. If you can, the best way to go for finding the best load with it, is to use your chronograph. Since it is so temperature tolerant, it also has a 'soft' pressure ceiling.</div></div>

Most people say Reloder 17 is extremely temperature sensitive.
--
 

sandwarrior

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 21, 2007
6,393
1,801
in yooperland
Re: .284 win?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Michael Aos</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Reloader 17 is really cool stuff. If you can, the best way to go for finding the best load with it, is to use your chronograph. Since it is so temperature tolerant, it also has a 'soft' pressure ceiling.</div></div>

Most people say Reloder 17 is extremely temperature sensitive.
--</div></div>

Well, I've tested it from +103 deg to -18 deg. And I say it's not.

It's about the only Alliant powder that is not temp sensitive. What were their loads/cartridges?
 

turbo54

Mr. 7mm
Full Member
Minuteman
Dec 10, 2010
4,999
13
41
Michigan
Re: .284 win?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, I've tested it from +103 deg to -18 deg. And I say it's not.

It's about the only Alliant powder that is not temp sensitive. What were their loads/cartridges? </div></div>

Would love to hear details on this. Care to elaborate?
 

goober

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 13, 2008
196
0
58
Auckland , New Zealand
Re: .284 win?

I must admit I to thought it was temp sensitive but thats just from reading a few peoples comments .I was running speeds ofbetween 2940 -2990 avaraged around 2955 but I only tried about 6 catridges
 

sandwarrior

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 21, 2007
6,393
1,801
in yooperland
Re: .284 win?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, I've tested it from +103 deg to -18 deg. And I say it's not.

It's about the only Alliant powder that is not temp sensitive. What were their loads/cartridges? </div></div>

Would love to hear details on this. Care to elaborate?</div></div>

Because of how it's made.

First understand burn speed is determined by size of kernel/ball/flake. The smaller the faster the burn. Bigger=slower burn. Pressure is determined by formulation. How much of this gets added, less of that, etc.

RE-17 is the first, and only (so far as I know, others probably exist), powder to have the burn retardant formulated to be mixed integrally with it while making the kernels. As most (all) double based powders are more temp sensitive because the nitro-glycerin added (which makes it a double base) slow down their burn in the winter. However, just because it's a single base doesn't mean it's naturally less temp sensitive. IMR powders remain uncoated, except for 4064. That and the Hodgdon Extreme powders have the burn retardant sprayed on after the kernels are formed. If you will notice the H-Extreme powders now have much smaller kernels. What Hodgdon did was reduce the size of the kernels and decrease the burn speed by upping the burn retardant.

A burn retardant works chemically by snuffing the burn. If it gets too hot, or too much pressure, free radicals spin off and the burn slows. Doing this can also extend the burn length down the barrel.

Anyhow, because of the retardant being mixed into the powder instead of on it, it gives better control. A reminder though that in order for the powder to be at peak performance retardant still needs to be limited. So, when you get charges too high it uses up the chemical capacity of the retardant. Once that happens, any coated/mixed powder is going to act just like it was uncoated. You get big bad pressure signs.

As far as temperature testing it, I've tested it here in Minnesota in the .22-250, .243, 6mm Rem, .257 Rob, .257 Wby, 6.5x55, .270 Win, 7mm-08, 7x57, 7WSM, .280AI, .308, 7.5x55, 30-06, 300 WSM and .300 WM. In +90 down to -10. Extreme cases being +103 down to -18 (I have tested powders up here in -26 but not RE-17). The results, I've found are that it generally takes a little bit less of it than H4530X in comparable loadings. But, remains right around +/- 50fps in those temps. It favors the smaller cases but works very well with the appropriate bullet weights in '06 capacity cases. One caveat to that was MontanaMarine was getting excellent results in his 30-06 with it, pushing 208 A-max's (?). I can't say where he was at in the pressure curve with it. It won't show overloads until quite a ways over where it is supposed to operate.

Does that help?
 

michael_aos

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Re: .284 win?

I was seeing occasional pressure signs at 50.0gr, 50.5gr, and 51gr Reloder 17 in my 284 Winchester.

30" Rock Creek barrel, Lapua brass necked-up, 180gr Berger (both Hybrid & VLD).

Doesn't happen all the time, but it did seem to happen more often with the higher charges.

The numbers on the chronograph look good.

I started thinking maybe the time a round sat in the warm / hot chamber combined with the rumored RL17 temperature sensitivity was working against me.

I switched to 50.7gr of H4350. So far, so good, but I need to spend some more time with it.

As an aside, I also thought maybe what I was interpreting as pressure signs (shiny spots on the brass, stiff bolt lift) might be some leftover Imperial sizing wax, but I've been cleaning stuff like crazy to rule out that possibility.
--
 

goober

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 13, 2008
196
0
58
Auckland , New Zealand
Re: .284 win?

pressure signs with 50gr rl17 , hell I was using 55gr -it was hot but appearded safe looking at the brass and primers -I wont go above this charge load .
 

Eyesac

Private
Minuteman
Feb 26, 2010
2
0
43
Reno, NV
Re: .284 win?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Michael Aos</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was seeing occasional pressure signs at 50.0gr, 50.5gr, and 51gr Reloder 17 in my 284 Winchester.

30" Rock Creek barrel, Lapua brass necked-up, 180gr Berger (both Hybrid & VLD).

Doesn't happen all the time, but it did seem to happen more often with the higher charges.

The numbers on the chronograph look good.

I started thinking maybe the time a round sat in the warm / hot chamber combined with the rumored RL17 temperature sensitivity was working against me.

I switched to 50.7gr of H4350. So far, so good, but I need to spend some more time with it.

As an aside, I also thought maybe what I was interpreting as pressure signs (shiny spots on the brass, stiff bolt lift) might be some leftover Imperial sizing wax, but I've been cleaning stuff like crazy to rule out that possibility.
--</div></div>

I have had the exact same experience, but had pretty severe elevation changes w/ temp as well. I would go shoot some steel and everything would be fine in the morning, by afternoon I'd have random pressure signs and an insane elevation change at 500yds (up to 10" sometimes). Switched to H4350 (from 51gr of RL17 to 51.5 of H4350) and haven't seen any of that nonsense since.

Funny thing is despite all I read about temp sensitivity with RL17 and I couldn't believe that was what was going on.

I don't know how other people aren't having any temp problems w/ RL17, perhaps the temp sensitivity is worse at certain pressures than at others, and I just found the right/wrong one...
 

bzinbv

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Dec 2, 2008
53
0
Buena Vista, Co
Re: .284 win?

I have a long barreled LA .284 very similar to Michael Aos, I'm running 56.5 gr of H4831SC in Lapua, Berger 180 Hybrid, but my OAL is 3.250 to keep the bullet away from the donut at the neck shoulder junction. Only issue I had was some wicked vertical stringing that I tracked down to too little clearance in the stock barrel channel. I was getting slight contact due to the barrel heating up, then it would cool and my zero returned. Once I opened up the barrel channel all is right with the rifle.

Michael, ever get to the DOW range in BV/Salida? I'd like to link up and exchange more info on the .284, we just finished up a second build that will have a FTE break instead of a can, interested to see how they compare.
 

sandwarrior

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 21, 2007
6,393
1,801
in yooperland
Re: .284 win?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eyesac</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Michael Aos</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">I was seeing occasional pressure signs at 50.0gr, 50.5gr, and 51gr Reloder 17 in my 284 Winchester.</span>

...

<span style="font-weight: bold">Doesn't happen all the time, but it did seem to happen more often with the higher charges. </span>

The numbers on the chronograph look good. <span style="color: #3333FF">too good?</span>

I started thinking maybe the time a round sat in the warm / hot chamber combined with the rumored RL17 temperature sensitivity was working against me.

I switched to 50.7gr of H4350. So far, so good, but I need to spend some more time with it.

As an aside, I also thought maybe what I was interpreting as pressure signs (shiny spots on the brass, stiff bolt lift) might be some leftover Imperial sizing wax, but I've been cleaning stuff like crazy to rule out that possibility. <span style="color: #3333FF">Hot rounds, no question.</span>
--</div></div>

I have had the exact same experience, but had pretty severe elevation changes w/ temp as well. <span style="font-weight: bold">I would go shoot some steel and everything would be fine in the morning, by afternoon I'd have random pressure signs and an insane elevation change at 500yds (up to 10" sometimes).</span> Switched to H4350 (from 51gr of RL17 to 51.5 of H4350) and haven't seen any of that nonsense since.

...

I don't know how other people aren't having any temp problems w/ RL17, perhaps the temp sensitivity is worse at certain pressures than at others, and I just found the right/wrong one...
</div></div>

I'll just say both of you are on the crux of being a little too high of a load.

Remember I said this stuff has a 'soft' pressure ceiling. You're getting awesome velocities, then in the afternoon, when rounds get saturated with heat (or a minute in a hot/warm chamber) and all of a sudden you get pressure signs. IMO, each of you are about half a grain over where you should be.

What I look for when reloading RE-17 is consistent progressive improvement in velocity. Jumping up 25-50 fps for each half gr. increase. When you see your first 100 fps jump, that's where you need to back down .1 or .2 gr. You don't find max pressure with this stuff by looking for the normal pressure signs. You've gotta find it with the chrono.
 

michael_aos

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Re: .284 win?

Maybe a little off-topic, but one thing I like about switching to H4350, is the logistics.

I already have my Dillon RL 550B set-up for 260 Remington. RCBS Chargemaster 1500 loaded with H4350.

It's super-easy to just swap tool heads and punch in a different load (50.7gr instead of 43.5gr) and keep right on trucking.
--
 

michael_aos

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Re: .284 win?

With necked-up Lapua brass, 180gr Berger Hybrid, CCI BR2, 30" barrel and Reloder 17, COAL ~3.19" I was seeing:

50.0gr - 2798fps (10 Jan 12)
50.0gr - 2798fps (10 Jan 12)
50.5gr - 2821fps (10 Jan 12)
51.0gr - 2847fps (10 Jan 12)
51.0gr - 2869fps (10 Jan 12)
51.0gr - 2871fps (30 Dec 11)
51.0gr - 2874fps (30 Dec 11)

I've seen occasional pressure signs (shiny spots on the brass, stiff bolt lift) with all of these.

On 16 Jan 12 I tried 50.7gr of H4350. Velocity was 2796fps, and no pressure signs.

I loaded up a bunch more and need to really wring it out, but it seems promising.


 

Cigarcop

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Aug 9, 2009
830
8
58
Pottstown, Pa
Re: .284 win?

MA,
How high have you went with H4350? I've gone to 53.5 in my F Class Rig w/180vlds with excellent results but I know its hard on the brass...I've settled at 51.6 for now.
 

sandwarrior

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 21, 2007
6,393
1,801
in yooperland
Re: .284 win?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Michael Aos</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Honestly, since I had spent a bunch of time between 50.0gr and 52.0gr of RL17 I figured I was safe to START with the 50.7gr H4350 Litz load from the 7mm Cartridge Guide. I haven't tried anything else. </div></div>

For such a reputable website there is a bunch of misinformation in there.
No. 1, they don't talk about how RE-17 is made. No. 2 If he thinks he can get 66 gr. of RE-17 in a 7 WSM behind a 180 Berger he is an absolute idiot. No. 3 Hodgdon 100 Hybrid is not meant to get faster velocities. It's meant to give a cool burn and save barrels. Unfortunately everyone, including myself, didn't understand that until I'd (we'd) wrecked a bunch of cases. No. 4 Getting on the the finer points, he is an idiot for thinking he should go above 3000 fps let alone trying to get 3100 fps. Even in the Shehane case. At least if you read Charles Ballards write-up you see he's running a very reasonable 2900 fps.

Ballard shows what I've always said about BC, high weight + good form factor (7mm) is going to rule in the wind. Great form factor (6.5's) without the weight behind it moves too much in the wind. High BC's generated from heavy bullets (.308 and .338) and lower form factor are going to move more in the wind.

Speaking of trying to get the super high velocities from the .284/.284 Shehane Obviously barrel life will be just like that of the 6.5-.284.
As much as I bitch about the military's choice on remaining with the .308(7.62) I will acknowledge, better than any round out there, it saves barrels. Continuous accuracy, year in and year out. This could be improved upon, but if people insist on super high velocities they've shot themselves in the foot trying to the military to buy off on departing from the .308 caliber. Let the bullet do the work. You find the best accuracy node for your rifle and leave it there. A .284 will work great as long as you aren't trying to squeeze the last little bit of velocity out of it. Find a medium pressure accuracy node for the 180's and you're set. Long barrel life, long brass life, extended life of accuracy.
 

9H_Cracka

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 15, 2005
2,800
3
WAY off base (COS CO)
Re: .284 win?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Michael Aos</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Reloader 17 is really cool stuff. If you can, the best way to go for finding the best load with it, is to use your chronograph. Since it is so temperature tolerant, it also has a 'soft' pressure ceiling.</div></div>

Most people say Reloder 17 is extremely temperature sensitive.
-- </div></div>

Mike the moderator here did RL17 testing with heavies in the 308 and found its ES unacceptable.