Please bare with me guys. I tried the search, but came up with a ton of hits, and not much info, so here it goes. I have a 30-06 that I plan on making a somewhat functional long range rifle. I see a lot of mention of the 168AMAX/FGMM, the 175SMK in the .308, and a lot of 208AMAX for the '06. According to other posts, the 168 seems to be unstable at longer ranges so the 175 is recommended to 1k in the .308. Why not the 175 in the '06 instead of the 208AMAX? I assume the 208AMAX will withstand the wind better, but won't you sacrifice fps due to the increased weight?
30-06 ammo for LR
- Thread starter flounderpounder
- Start date
Re: 30-06 ammo for LR
You should be able to start the 178 about 200 fps faster than a 208, but at 1K, the 208 will be going faster, and drifting less. The difference in drop will be irrelevant.
You should be able to start the 178 about 200 fps faster than a 208, but at 1K, the 208 will be going faster, and drifting less. The difference in drop will be irrelevant.
Re: 30-06 ammo for LR
Flounderpounder,
Montana Marine is spot on,
As an Illustration, I built 2 JBM tables, using Litz derived G7 BC's to show his point:
First, 308 Cal 208 Grain A-Max @ 2625 FPS @ 1K yds;
1000 Yds. Drop -9.2 Mils -31.6 MOA Drift 1.9 Mils 6.4 MOA
Next, 308 Cal 175 Gr SMK @ 2825 FPS @ 1K Yds.
1000 Yds Drop -9.2 Mils -31.8 MOA Drift 2.5 Mils 8.5MOA
I just picked to data points 200 FPS apart, that are well within the capabilities of the 30-06. Note how drop is near identical, and drift favors the heavier bullet by over 21".
Bob
Flounderpounder,
Montana Marine is spot on,
As an Illustration, I built 2 JBM tables, using Litz derived G7 BC's to show his point:
First, 308 Cal 208 Grain A-Max @ 2625 FPS @ 1K yds;
1000 Yds. Drop -9.2 Mils -31.6 MOA Drift 1.9 Mils 6.4 MOA
Next, 308 Cal 175 Gr SMK @ 2825 FPS @ 1K Yds.
1000 Yds Drop -9.2 Mils -31.8 MOA Drift 2.5 Mils 8.5MOA
I just picked to data points 200 FPS apart, that are well within the capabilities of the 30-06. Note how drop is near identical, and drift favors the heavier bullet by over 21".
Bob
Re: 30-06 ammo for LR
Physics and gravity....they're a bitch! How can an object weighing 30grains more, travel the same distance and end up going faster than it's lighter partner, who started traveling faster to begin with? Thanks MM, that's what I suspected, just don't understand how.
Physics and gravity....they're a bitch! How can an object weighing 30grains more, travel the same distance and end up going faster than it's lighter partner, who started traveling faster to begin with? Thanks MM, that's what I suspected, just don't understand how.
Re: 30-06 ammo for LR
Buy/beg/borrow a copy of Bryan Litz's book <span style="text-decoration: underline">Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting</span>
It's written in plain english for the non-math types and explains things very well.
To correct some things I see above:
The 168 Amax works well out past 1000yd, the 168 SMK has problems due to the boat tail length and angle. If you have 168 Amax's shoot 'em up and enjoy them.
I shoot almost exclusively the 210gr class bullets from my 30-06 and I don't own a 308 anymore. The -06 does everything a 308 does but can still play at magnum ranges if you want to.
The 178 Amax is a great bullet. Here's a teaser to work on if you get some. The charge range will work equally for a 175 SMK if you get them instead, you just start at the bottom and work up in charge weights by ~ 0.3-0.5gr increments.
30-06 Loads
H4350 Powder
175-180gr bullets
Start @ 55.0gr and work up to 59.0gr as you watch for pressure signs.
The Amax bullets all seem to like being 0.010"-0.020" off the lands for all of my rifles from 22-30 cal
RL-19 will work in this range as well.
Remember, start low and work up, 55gr is safe to start with, 56 might not be, 58 is definitely not. Get a loading manual and read it over and over in the "how to" and "safety" chapters.
Buy/beg/borrow a copy of Bryan Litz's book <span style="text-decoration: underline">Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting</span>
It's written in plain english for the non-math types and explains things very well.
To correct some things I see above:
The 168 Amax works well out past 1000yd, the 168 SMK has problems due to the boat tail length and angle. If you have 168 Amax's shoot 'em up and enjoy them.
I shoot almost exclusively the 210gr class bullets from my 30-06 and I don't own a 308 anymore. The -06 does everything a 308 does but can still play at magnum ranges if you want to.
The 178 Amax is a great bullet. Here's a teaser to work on if you get some. The charge range will work equally for a 175 SMK if you get them instead, you just start at the bottom and work up in charge weights by ~ 0.3-0.5gr increments.
30-06 Loads
H4350 Powder
175-180gr bullets
Start @ 55.0gr and work up to 59.0gr as you watch for pressure signs.
The Amax bullets all seem to like being 0.010"-0.020" off the lands for all of my rifles from 22-30 cal
RL-19 will work in this range as well.
Remember, start low and work up, 55gr is safe to start with, 56 might not be, 58 is definitely not. Get a loading manual and read it over and over in the "how to" and "safety" chapters.
Re: 30-06 ammo for LR
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderpounder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Physics and gravity....they're a bitch! How can an object weighing 30grains more, travel the same distance and end up going faster than it's lighter partner, who started traveling faster to begin with? Thanks MM, that's what I suspected, just don't understand how. </div></div>
Basically, The 208 (BC .648) is more aerodynamic. It has less drag, a lot less drag, so it retains velocity better.
The 178 (BC .495) starts faster but loses velocity faster (more drag). In this comparison, just past 600 yards, the 208 is going faster than the 178. The 178 drops below 1200 fps around 1400 yards, while the 208 retains 1200 fps past 1600 yards.
178 AMax, 2900 fps MV (4000' el):
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Code:</div><div class="ubbcode-body ubbcode-pre" ><pre>
Bullet : .308, 178, Hornady A-MAX 30712
Muzzle velocity : 2900 fps
Crosswind speed : 10 Mph
Ballistic Coefficient(s) (G1):
C1=0.495@V>0 fps;
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sight-in clicks, 1 click = 0.915 cm/100 yd. or 0.36 in/100 yd.
Height of sight above bore axis = 5.0 cm or 1.969 inch
Gun is zeroed-in at 100 yds,
by sighting-in at level firing
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Range Velo Time of Energy Path Deflection Total Sight correction Target
city flight to at crosswind drop for setting new lead
LOS of 10.0 Mph zero range 33 fps
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
·Yards fps s ft.lbs. in. in. MOA in. Clicks MOA yds ·
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| 0 2900 0.0000 3324 -2.0 0.0 ----- 0.0 ------ ----- 0.00
X 100 2743 0.1069 2972 0.0 0.6 0.57 2.2 0.0 0.00 1.17
| 200 2590 0.2197 2652 -2.7 2.3 1.07 9.0 +3.7 +1.28 2.40
| 300 2443 0.3380 2359 -10.4 4.9 1.55 20.8 +9.6 +3.32 3.70
| 400 2301 0.4648 2092 -24.1 9.0 2.14 38.7 +16.7 +5.75 5.08
| 500 2163 0.5998 1849 -44.4 14.5 2.78 63.1 +24.7 +8.49 6.56
| 600 2030 0.7424 1629 -72.0 21.4 3.41 94.8 +33.3 +11.45 8.12
| 700 1901 0.8933 1429 -107.5 29.8 4.06 134.5 +42.6 +14.67 9.77
| 800 1780 1.0579 1251 -153.8 40.5 4.84 184.9 +53.4 +18.36 11.57
| 900 1664 1.2343 1094 -211.5 53.4 5.66 246.7 +65.2 +22.44 13.50
| 1000 1553 1.4208 954 -281.1 68.0 6.49 320.4 +78.0 +26.84 15.54
| 1100 1450 1.6187 831 -364.5 84.6 7.34 407.9 +92.0 +31.64 17.70
| 1200 1357 1.8335 728 -466.4 104.2 8.29 514.0 +107.9 +37.11 20.05
| 1300 1272 2.0616 639 -587.1 126.1 9.27 638.9 +125.4 +43.12 22.55
| 1400 1198 2.3049 567 -730.6 150.8 10.28 786.5 +144.9 +49.83 25.21
| 1500 1136 2.5622 510 -899.0 177.8 11.32 959.0 +166.4 +57.22 28.02
| 1600 1084 2.8328 464 -1095.0 207.3 12.37 1159.2 +190.0 +65.35 30.98
</pre></div></div>
208 AMax, 2700 fps MV (4000' el),
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Code:</div><div class="ubbcode-body ubbcode-pre" ><pre>
Bullet : .308, 208, Hornady A-MAX 30712
Bullet weight : 208 grains or 13.48 Grams
Muzzle velocity : 2700 fps
Crosswind speed : 10 Mph
Ballistic Coefficient(s) (G1):
C1=0.648@V>0 fps;
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Range Velo Time of Energy Path Deflection Total Sight correction Target
city flight to at crosswind drop for setting new lead
LOS of 10.0 Mph zero range 33 fps
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
·Yards fps s ft.lbs. in. in. MOA in. Clicks MOA yds ·
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| 0 2700 0.0000 3367 -2.0 0.0 ----- 0.0 ------ ----- 0.00
M 89 2597 0.1010 3115 0.0 0.4 0.40 1.9 -0.1 -0.03 1.10
X 100 2584 0.1137 3085 0.0 0.5 0.44 2.5 0.0 0.00 1.24
P 197 2475 0.2278 2829 -3.0 1.6 0.76 9.7 +4.2 +1.44 2.49
| 200 2472 0.2314 2821 -3.2 1.6 0.77 10.0 +4.4 +1.50 2.53
| 300 2362 0.3554 2576 -12.0 3.9 1.23 23.3 +11.1 +3.82 3.89
| 400 2255 0.4859 2348 -27.2 7.3 1.74 43.0 +18.9 +6.50 5.31
| 500 2150 0.6227 2136 -49.3 11.8 2.26 69.5 +27.4 +9.41 6.81
| 600 2049 0.7651 1938 -78.7 17.3 2.76 103.3 +36.4 +12.52 8.37
| 700 1950 0.9128 1755 -115.7 23.8 3.24 144.7 +45.9 +15.78 9.98
| 800 1854 1.0709 1587 -162.6 32.0 3.82 196.0 +56.4 +19.41 11.71
| 900 1762 1.2389 1434 -220.4 42.0 4.46 258.3 +68.0 +23.38 13.55
| 1000 1674 1.4156 1294 -289.7 53.6 5.12 332.0 +80.4 +27.66 15.48
| 1100 1589 1.6001 1166 -370.9 66.5 5.77 417.6 +93.6 +32.20 17.50
| 1200 1507 1.7918 1049 -464.5 80.7 6.42 515.7 +107.5 +36.97 19.60
| 1300 1430 1.9952 945 -574.3 96.9 7.12 629.9 +122.6 +42.19 21.82
| 1400 1360 2.2115 854 -702.9 115.4 7.87 763.0 +139.4 +47.94 24.18
| 1500 1294 2.4378 773 -850.2 135.7 8.64 914.6 +157.3 +54.12 26.66
| 1600 1234 2.6747 703 -1018.1 157.9 9.42 1087.0 +176.6 +60.76 29.25
</pre></div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: flounderpounder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Physics and gravity....they're a bitch! How can an object weighing 30grains more, travel the same distance and end up going faster than it's lighter partner, who started traveling faster to begin with? Thanks MM, that's what I suspected, just don't understand how. </div></div>
Basically, The 208 (BC .648) is more aerodynamic. It has less drag, a lot less drag, so it retains velocity better.
The 178 (BC .495) starts faster but loses velocity faster (more drag). In this comparison, just past 600 yards, the 208 is going faster than the 178. The 178 drops below 1200 fps around 1400 yards, while the 208 retains 1200 fps past 1600 yards.
178 AMax, 2900 fps MV (4000' el):
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Code:</div><div class="ubbcode-body ubbcode-pre" ><pre>
Bullet : .308, 178, Hornady A-MAX 30712
Muzzle velocity : 2900 fps
Crosswind speed : 10 Mph
Ballistic Coefficient(s) (G1):
C1=0.495@V>0 fps;
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sight-in clicks, 1 click = 0.915 cm/100 yd. or 0.36 in/100 yd.
Height of sight above bore axis = 5.0 cm or 1.969 inch
Gun is zeroed-in at 100 yds,
by sighting-in at level firing
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Range Velo Time of Energy Path Deflection Total Sight correction Target
city flight to at crosswind drop for setting new lead
LOS of 10.0 Mph zero range 33 fps
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
·Yards fps s ft.lbs. in. in. MOA in. Clicks MOA yds ·
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| 0 2900 0.0000 3324 -2.0 0.0 ----- 0.0 ------ ----- 0.00
X 100 2743 0.1069 2972 0.0 0.6 0.57 2.2 0.0 0.00 1.17
| 200 2590 0.2197 2652 -2.7 2.3 1.07 9.0 +3.7 +1.28 2.40
| 300 2443 0.3380 2359 -10.4 4.9 1.55 20.8 +9.6 +3.32 3.70
| 400 2301 0.4648 2092 -24.1 9.0 2.14 38.7 +16.7 +5.75 5.08
| 500 2163 0.5998 1849 -44.4 14.5 2.78 63.1 +24.7 +8.49 6.56
| 600 2030 0.7424 1629 -72.0 21.4 3.41 94.8 +33.3 +11.45 8.12
| 700 1901 0.8933 1429 -107.5 29.8 4.06 134.5 +42.6 +14.67 9.77
| 800 1780 1.0579 1251 -153.8 40.5 4.84 184.9 +53.4 +18.36 11.57
| 900 1664 1.2343 1094 -211.5 53.4 5.66 246.7 +65.2 +22.44 13.50
| 1000 1553 1.4208 954 -281.1 68.0 6.49 320.4 +78.0 +26.84 15.54
| 1100 1450 1.6187 831 -364.5 84.6 7.34 407.9 +92.0 +31.64 17.70
| 1200 1357 1.8335 728 -466.4 104.2 8.29 514.0 +107.9 +37.11 20.05
| 1300 1272 2.0616 639 -587.1 126.1 9.27 638.9 +125.4 +43.12 22.55
| 1400 1198 2.3049 567 -730.6 150.8 10.28 786.5 +144.9 +49.83 25.21
| 1500 1136 2.5622 510 -899.0 177.8 11.32 959.0 +166.4 +57.22 28.02
| 1600 1084 2.8328 464 -1095.0 207.3 12.37 1159.2 +190.0 +65.35 30.98
</pre></div></div>
208 AMax, 2700 fps MV (4000' el),
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Code:</div><div class="ubbcode-body ubbcode-pre" ><pre>
Bullet : .308, 208, Hornady A-MAX 30712
Bullet weight : 208 grains or 13.48 Grams
Muzzle velocity : 2700 fps
Crosswind speed : 10 Mph
Ballistic Coefficient(s) (G1):
C1=0.648@V>0 fps;
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Range Velo Time of Energy Path Deflection Total Sight correction Target
city flight to at crosswind drop for setting new lead
LOS of 10.0 Mph zero range 33 fps
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
·Yards fps s ft.lbs. in. in. MOA in. Clicks MOA yds ·
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| 0 2700 0.0000 3367 -2.0 0.0 ----- 0.0 ------ ----- 0.00
M 89 2597 0.1010 3115 0.0 0.4 0.40 1.9 -0.1 -0.03 1.10
X 100 2584 0.1137 3085 0.0 0.5 0.44 2.5 0.0 0.00 1.24
P 197 2475 0.2278 2829 -3.0 1.6 0.76 9.7 +4.2 +1.44 2.49
| 200 2472 0.2314 2821 -3.2 1.6 0.77 10.0 +4.4 +1.50 2.53
| 300 2362 0.3554 2576 -12.0 3.9 1.23 23.3 +11.1 +3.82 3.89
| 400 2255 0.4859 2348 -27.2 7.3 1.74 43.0 +18.9 +6.50 5.31
| 500 2150 0.6227 2136 -49.3 11.8 2.26 69.5 +27.4 +9.41 6.81
| 600 2049 0.7651 1938 -78.7 17.3 2.76 103.3 +36.4 +12.52 8.37
| 700 1950 0.9128 1755 -115.7 23.8 3.24 144.7 +45.9 +15.78 9.98
| 800 1854 1.0709 1587 -162.6 32.0 3.82 196.0 +56.4 +19.41 11.71
| 900 1762 1.2389 1434 -220.4 42.0 4.46 258.3 +68.0 +23.38 13.55
| 1000 1674 1.4156 1294 -289.7 53.6 5.12 332.0 +80.4 +27.66 15.48
| 1100 1589 1.6001 1166 -370.9 66.5 5.77 417.6 +93.6 +32.20 17.50
| 1200 1507 1.7918 1049 -464.5 80.7 6.42 515.7 +107.5 +36.97 19.60
| 1300 1430 1.9952 945 -574.3 96.9 7.12 629.9 +122.6 +42.19 21.82
| 1400 1360 2.2115 854 -702.9 115.4 7.87 763.0 +139.4 +47.94 24.18
| 1500 1294 2.4378 773 -850.2 135.7 8.64 914.6 +157.3 +54.12 26.66
| 1600 1234 2.6747 703 -1018.1 157.9 9.42 1087.0 +176.6 +60.76 29.25
</pre></div></div>
Re: 30-06 ammo for LR
Fed GMM used the 168SMK, and although I haven't shot it beyond 300yd, it may have the zip to reach 1Kyd OK.
I can't find my NRA M1 Garand pamphlet, but I think a they mention the 175SMK with around 47.0 to 48.0gr of IMR-4064. Don't take this as a reliable load, start lower and work up, observing pressure signs for <span style="font-style: italic">your</span> rifle.
Greg
Fed GMM used the 168SMK, and although I haven't shot it beyond 300yd, it may have the zip to reach 1Kyd OK.
I can't find my NRA M1 Garand pamphlet, but I think a they mention the 175SMK with around 47.0 to 48.0gr of IMR-4064. Don't take this as a reliable load, start lower and work up, observing pressure signs for <span style="font-style: italic">your</span> rifle.
Greg
Re: 30-06 ammo for LR
I've had great results in my '06 with 175 SMK's and IMR4350, that combination just shoots and is very tolerant of small variations. I have also had good results with the 165gr Hornady SST's. One SST load shot into an inch at 200 yards with 4350 powder, and my '06 is a hunting rifle, thin barreled Savage with tupperware. If your extreme spread is high you can try using a magnum primer, I've had some hit and miss with them and 4350 is a little harder to ignite than some powders.
The 175 and 208's should be stable transonic but of course the best accuracy will be if you can keep it over mach 1.1
I've had great results in my '06 with 175 SMK's and IMR4350, that combination just shoots and is very tolerant of small variations. I have also had good results with the 165gr Hornady SST's. One SST load shot into an inch at 200 yards with 4350 powder, and my '06 is a hunting rifle, thin barreled Savage with tupperware. If your extreme spread is high you can try using a magnum primer, I've had some hit and miss with them and 4350 is a little harder to ignite than some powders.
The 175 and 208's should be stable transonic but of course the best accuracy will be if you can keep it over mach 1.1
