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30/06 and Varget. etc??

H

hydro556

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Dec 1, 2007
2,746
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STL, home of the Cardinals.
As much as I dont want to start loading another caliber, I am about to start. I am picking up a new Sako Classic in '06 because the price to too good to pass.

Did a quick search of '06 loads and see a small percentage of them using Varget. I <span style="font-style: italic">really</span> want to make Varget work because I have a bunch of it for my 308's. I am trying to only have to buy brass. I also have a bunch of Fed 210M's.

Wanting to hear from some of you who load '06. Opinions on Varget.
 
Re: 30/06 and Varget. etc??

I don't use it with the '06, but research suggests it's better with lighter bullets (150/155gr), and loads really aren't much heavier than those for the .308 (maybe just a grain or two more). It just doesn't come across as a propellant that can get the true performance out of the '06 case. Faster burn than optimal. I think something like the 150gr and around 46.0gr of Varget might be fair-to-middlin. For the same bullet, I'm using 50.0gr of IMR4064, it's Garand compatible at that level, and maxes out for bolt guns at around 51.5gr.

For heavier bullets, 165gr on up, think more in terms of IMR4064, IMR4320, and H/IMR4350.

Greg

 
Re: 30/06 and Varget. etc??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't use it with the '06, but research suggests it's better with lighter bullets (150/155gr), and loads really aren't much heavier than those for the .308 (maybe just a grain or two more). It just doesn't come across as a propellant that can get the true performance out of the '06 case. Faster burn than optimal. I think something like the 150gr and around 46.0gr of Varget might be fair-to-middlin. For the same bullet, I'm using 50.0gr of IMR4064, it's Garand compatible at that level, and maxes out for bolt guns at around 51.5gr.

For heavier bullets, 165gr on up, think more in terms of IMR4064, IMR4320, and H/IMR4350.

Greg

</div></div>
+1. It will work, but it's not the top powder for it. It's too fast burning. The lighter bullets would be best for that powder. You can shoot the heavier bullets but will not get as much velocity with Varget. But it will go bang, and should shoot ok.
 
Re: 30/06 and Varget. etc??

Greg, Chad, thanks for the advice. The rifle is an 11 twist and I was hoping to shoot bullets between 155 and 175 grains. I will look and see what other powders I have. Thanks
 
Re: 30/06 and Varget. etc??

The 11tw tube should keep you stable up to about 190gr maybe even 210 if you can shove them out there fast enough.

Don't forget to look into RL-22 and RL-25 for heavy bullets. The -06 really comes into it's own for 175-210gr bullets, in fact, with 210's it will rival the 300 WM for capability with the right powder and brass.

The Varget is much too quick for the capacity of the 30-06 with 175gr bullets, surplus powders like WC846 will get you some wonderful velocities with the 15x crowd of bullets. I shoot 150's from my 26" bbl 06 at 3050 for general plinking, but they will run 3200 if I really push them with BLC2 (WC846) and it meters well.

At 3200fps the 150 mil surp bullets will easily go 1250y supersonic and are good enough to shoot rocks and steel at those ranges pretty nicely.

You'll really like the 06
 
Re: 30/06 and Varget. etc??

All I have on hand is a bunch of Varget and about 1lb of Retumbo, about 1 lb of Hodgdon H 4831 and the same of IMR 4895.

So, I guess I will have to add a couple powders to my order and pay the damn HM fee.
 
Re: 30/06 and Varget. etc??

Also, for cases, I always buy Lapua, but they are a buck apiece. The Nosler Custom brass is about .75 apiece. Considering that instead. Good call?
 
Re: 30/06 and Varget. etc??

It will work fine. It just will not produce optimum velocity is all. You need something slower like 4350 for that, but 100-150 fps is not gonna kill ya given your objectives.
 
Re: 30/06 and Varget. etc??

Thanks guys. Am going to do some research on cases and powder and find out what is best. Hell, for hunting, Win cases may be the ticket.
 
Re: 30/06 and Varget. etc??

If you have IMR 4895 That is one of the most versitile 30-06 powders ever made should work well with any bullet you put in there. Using Hodgdons data it is one of the top performers for a wide range of weights. Not many people on here use it that I have seen in the load depot, however they are all pushing 180 and up for the most part so there are probably better powders if you go with the heavies, but for 125-175 it looks like a pretty good powder. I have been getting ready to load for a 30-06 I am getting back into shooting shape after years of abuse and have been looking into the same thing and the 2 best according to Hodgdons data for light to medium bullets look to be IMR 4895 and IMR 4064. If I am way off base here feel free to correct me as it would save me buying some powder and not being happy with it.
 
Re: 30/06 and Varget. etc??

I want '06 velocities.

I ordered 100 Nosler brass and a hundred Nosler Ballistic tips in 150 grain. Also a set of RCBS Micrometer dies. This will get me started. I have a few weekends to get a decent hunting load going before deer season. Shouldnt be difficult to find a load that will shoot MOA out of the Sako Classic.

Thanks for the help guys.
 
Re: 30/06 and Varget. etc??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hydro556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All I have on hand is a bunch of Varget and about 1lb of Retumbo, about 1 lb of Hodgdon H 4831 and the same of IMR 4895.

So, I guess I will have to add a couple powders to my order and pay the damn HM fee. </div></div>

H4831 should work well with the heavies in '06. I have a bud that tested H4831SC with 208 AMAX in the '06 and it was shooting sweet. Otherwise IMR 4064 or H4350 would be my choice.
 
Re: 30/06 and Varget. etc??

Re: 30/06 and Varget. etc?? [Re: Gilly]
NineHotel
Comes w/ KungFu Grip

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 5978
Loc: WAY off base (COS CO) Yes, if you want 308 velocities out of your 30-06, by all means switch to 4895.
_________________________

Nine Hotel by all means give me a better option for 150 grain bullet that off of BOOK data is hands down better than 4895? The only one of Hodgdon, IMR, and Win that is faster for the bullet he is going to use Nosler 150 BT is IMR 4320 by 7 whole FPS. Pretty tough to beat it until 165 grain bullets and heavier. I don't know much on RL or VV powders but if your going to make a comment at least give me a reccomendation of what is better. This is going off of book data not pet loads in a particular rifle that differ from one to another that handle pressure better than others.

As for 308 velocities, IMR 4895 in 30-06 is faster than the best 308 powders for each given bullet weight up till 175's.
110 grain 150 fps faster
125 grain 130 fps faster
130 grain 85 fps faster
140 grain 108 fps faster
155 grain 100 fps faster
165 grain 115 fps faster
168 grain 100 fps faster
175 grain 14 fps slower

Granted these are not huge gains but I would not consider them 308 velocities as you called them when they are mostly all better by over 100 fps. So unless you have a RL or VV powder that you can give me that CONSISTANTLY is better your comment does not have much merrit in my book. From what I have read RL-xx whether 17,22, or 25 are very temperature sensative if I'm not mistaken? From alliants website RL-17 and RL-22 are very similar to velocities shown for IMR 4895 with the loads they give so I would like you to give me your secret to outrun the 308 by more than 100-150 fps.
 
Re: 30/06 and Varget. etc??

Bergers site calls for an 11tw for the 210 vdls. Just food for thought.

Howdy
 
Re: 30/06 and Varget. etc??

When your ready to super size your loads to a higher level, MontanaMarine has done alot with the 30-06.
 
Re: 30/06 and Varget. etc??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gilly</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Re: 30/06 and Varget. etc?? [Re: Gilly]
NineHotel
Comes w/ KungFu Grip

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 5978
Loc: WAY off base (COS CO) Yes, if you want 308 velocities out of your 30-06, by all means switch to 4895.
_________________________

Nine Hotel by all means give me a better option for 150 grain bullet that off of BOOK data is hands down better than 4895? The only one of Hodgdon, IMR, and Win that is faster for the bullet he is going to use Nosler 150 BT is IMR 4320 by 7 whole FPS. Pretty tough to beat it until 165 grain bullets and heavier. I don't know much on RL or VV powders but if your going to make a comment at least give me a reccomendation of what is better. This is going off of book data not pet loads in a particular rifle that differ from one to another that handle pressure better than others.

As for 308 velocities, IMR 4895 in 30-06 is faster than the best 308 powders for each given bullet weight up till 175's.
110 grain 150 fps faster
125 grain 130 fps faster
130 grain 85 fps faster
140 grain 108 fps faster
155 grain 100 fps faster
165 grain 115 fps faster
168 grain 100 fps faster
175 grain 14 fps slower

Granted these are not huge gains but I would not consider them 308 velocities as you called them when they are mostly all better by over 100 fps. So unless you have a RL or VV powder that you can give me that CONSISTANTLY is better your comment does not have much merrit in my book. From what I have read RL-xx whether 17,22, or 25 are very temperature sensative if I'm not mistaken? From alliants website RL-17 and RL-22 are very similar to velocities shown for IMR 4895 with the loads they give so I would like you to give me your secret to outrun the 308 by more than 100-150 fps. </div></div>

This is where reality and experience collide with the internet and book data.

A preface: Ammunition manufacturers and reloading manuals do not know the type of rifle you are driving and therefore must offer things that will operate safely in ANY firearm that has been factory produced for the 30-06 cartridge. That includes the venerable M1 Garand and lets say a Remmy 760 auto loader. There is a significant difference in what you can do with a bolt gun vs a gas gun w/o breaking it.

IMR 4895 (canister) was used to load M2 ball and match ammo for a good many years the reason being that it is what was available and it drove the 147gr FMJ boolet at decent speeds w/o bending the op rod of the Garand. It is also responsible for the wives tail that the 30-06 is "slightly" more powerful than the 308 shooting the same boolet. It has to do with PORT PRESSURE not chamber pressure. Significant difference.

With the 150gr fmj currently available there should be no reason you cannot achieve velocities well above the 3100fps range with the appropriate powder. Those loads WILL break a gas gun, BUT we're talking about bolt guns.

FWIW and IMHO: 4350 (either one) is the powder I have found to work best with mid to light boolet weights 150 - 170ish. I still use it today for my whitetail hunting loads with 168 CT's and 165's of various flavors and drive them on the ragged edge of 3K fps. Be warned you CAN get too much powder in the case, so pay attention.

I would play with the 4831 to see if you can get better case fill vs performance but I have not personally tried it. It does work exceptionally well in a 280AI tho...
wink.gif


Cheers,

Doc
 
Re: 30/06 and Varget. etc??

Reviewing this question, I am reminded of how the 7.62X51 NATO was intially intended and designed to perform very closely to the .30-'06 with 147-155gr bullets.

This discussion points out how thoroughly well that project was achieved.

But it also points out the .308's shortcoming once one decides to take it out of that narrow threshhold.

In honesty, when one choses to drive heavier bullets, the .308 falls behind the .30-'06 by increasing degrees as the bullets get bigger. In essence, we are all endeavoring to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear when we task the .308 with LR/Heavy Bullet performance.

In musical terms, <span style="font-style: italic">...There ain't nothin' like the real thing, Baby...</span>.

The M118 was an effort to recreate the M72. Only bias can prompt one to say that project was successful.

Greg
 
Re: 30/06 and Varget. etc??

If you're not loading for a Garand, you can go way faster than what's recommended by carefully working the loads.

BLC-2 in my rifle "should" be no more than 3000fps with 150gr pills. The plinker loads I use for it run 3100 and I still have another 1-1.5gr of powder to put in there before pressure signs really start to roll in. I don't shoot them at 3200 simply for barrel wear reasons, I try to keep the loads at 3050-3100.

To put that in perspective I get 2950-3000 from 178's and 2885-2900 from the 208's. Clearly that 150 can go faster.
 
Re: 30/06 and Varget. etc??

My 'play anywhere loads' are 150's with IMR4064. My 'go for broke' bolt gun target loads are 168's with H4350. My bolt guns are lighter weight sporters, so I don't really like shooting them with anything heavier than the 168's.

Recently, I acquired another .30-'06 sporter. It's an R77 (the other is an M70). For some reason, I didn't like the pressure signs the R77 generated with the 168/4064 loads the M70 uses. I now have it zeroed for Rem 150gr Core-Lokt Express hunting laods, which it seeems to like a lot.

Greg
 
Re: 30/06 and Varget. etc??

Thanks for the reply doc that is some great constructive advice. Not reloading for a 30-06 before makes me a little inexperienced not knowing that loads are kept low in data for the reasons you discussed. So using some of the other powders mentioned and working up a load until pressure signs are seen is going to be different from what a book shows max for a given bullet, makes sense.
 
Re: 30/06 and Varget. etc??

Glad you took it as I intended.

The 30-06 and quite a few other similar aged cartridges have the same problems with lawyers. Book data is fine to start with or if you don't know what your messing with, after that your out on the ice by yourself. Of course with some of the folks that are around here I've got lots of company on the lake
laugh.gif


Cheers,

Doc
 
Re: 30/06 and Varget. etc??

I wont be joining you on the lake for a while, I am a bit of a pussy about this. As soon as I find a load that shoots well, I stop. Dont care about velocity.


Great discussion guys, thanks
 
Re: 30/06 and Varget. etc??

Gilly -

Read this article and you should be able to see why a 30-06 case, fast burning powders like H4895, and 150 grain bullets are of no interest to me.

http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/index_files/30cal_fullVersion.pdf

Couple that with the fact that fast powders and large airspaces in cases hurt rather than help accuracy and you'll understand my aversion to H4895 in the '06 case. Varget is a tad slower but suffers from the same issues. Yes it will go BANG, no you won't get optimum accuracy, energy, velocity, and versatility out of the 30-06 case for hunting big game.

Up the bullet weight, slow down the powder, then the 30-06 comes into its own. 4350 is the perfect burning rate for 165-190 grain pills in standard length barrels. Some of us here also rely on the what I call "moon and sun and stars align" load of a 200 grain bullet, 26" barrel, and around 59 grains of RL22 to turn our '06s into stout 300 WMs or WSMs. I pitch a 200 grain SMK or Gameking 2830 FPS. Start comparing that to the ballistics of a 308 or 30-06 pushing a 147 or 150 and you'll see why.

Otherwise use a 308 case and a 165-180 grain bullet. Many a critter have fallen to a factory rifle shooting factory ammo with a 308. There is nothing wrong with making a 30-06 do basically the same thing with Varget, but there is no need to switch to H4895 if one were to change from Varget with the 30-06. Go slower and exploit the case's potential beyond the 308 case or stick with the Varget.
 
Re: 30/06 and Varget. etc??

Thanks guys this is the type of info I like getting as I can do something with it and get somwhere with it. For someone who has always started with the loads in the book and worked up (not that it is bad) it is hard to know all of the dynamics that come into play with powders and case fill and how they act discussions like this with more experienced shooters and reloaders help teach things about a cartrige one might have otherwise never found out.
 
Re: 30/06 and Varget. etc??

9H,

YOU ARE THE FOOKING MAN!!!!!!!!

I have that article in PS and was just about to copy it for a bud who works at NSW sniper school who has been phoo phoo'd by the web footed brigade about his 280 AI.

After I sat on the long line with a very nice lady (Nancy Ghallegeher - Thompkins (SP) she won the LR match) at the 91' National Matches discussing calibers and such I came to be enamored with the 7mm and heavies. Unfortunately back then the boolet selection was nill in the heavy weights for the .30 and the 7mm. Being a young E-5 the concept of rebarrelling a rifle was waaaaaayyyy cost prohibitive. Older and wiser (supposedly) I have finally been able to put into practice what we talked about all those years ago that B.L. now put into print.

Gilly - knowing what you don't know is half the fight, some of it comes hard won. The hardest lessons are generally given freely for those willing to take it. Ask any Dad of a teen age boy how hard it is to give away good info
wink.gif


Cheers,

Doc
 
Re: 30/06 and Varget. etc??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Niles Coyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When your ready to super size your loads to a higher level, MontanaMarine has done alot with the 30-06. </div></div>

I was waiting for MM to be brought up. He, doc76241 and USSR are why I now have 3 '06's... and may have a 4th soon.
 
Re: 30/06 and Varget. etc??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nashlaw</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Niles Coyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When your ready to super size your loads to a higher level, MontanaMarine has done alot with the 30-06. </div></div>

I was waiting for MM to be brought up. He, doc76241 and USSR are why I now have 3 '06's... and may have a 4th soon. </div></div>

Hey nash,

You ever build that Marksman? Always wondered if she came out OK, have been debating if letting her go was a good idea
cry.gif


Cheers,

Doc
 
Re: 30/06 and Varget. etc??

I got a lb of 4350. But the only hunting bullets I have are 150 grain noslers.

I have a bunch of 175 SMKs though.

I will give them a try and see what they do. I dont think I am going to keep the Sako, because the stock is too damn pretty to be banging on oak trees, but I am definitely getting another 06. I need to expand my reloading horizons. I got my comp 06 dies today.
 
Re: 30/06 and Varget. etc??

Thank you all! You've made me feel a lot better about my bolt 30-06!
 
Re: 30/06 and Varget. etc??

Fed 210m
Win brass
47 gr. Varget
SMK 175 gr. BTHP
COAL 3.310
SHOOTS!
It's sub MOA absolutely in my Remmy 700 BDL Wally world 22"
will try to post pics but lazy!
Hodgdon has 45 as start and 48 as max!
 
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