The problem is that there is very little data out there for the heavy, high BC bullets in 30-06. Most data stops at 180 or 200 grains, and even then it is normally for a RN bullet. You have to dig a bit to find data for anything over 208 gr.
- Thread starter Blount8
- Start date
Or go with the tried an true bolt lift or primer flatting. The issue I see with many new shooters an those who think Gicci is the be all is if it's not in a book it can't be done. Just because a powder/bullet combo is not listed does not mean it will not work or work well or even surpass tried an true loads. Most today are but what I call shelf shooters. If the info is readable, or product is not a shelf item they think it will not preform or otherwise. Interestingly/sadly this equates to many other things as well.
Understood. I was just saying that it makes it more difficult and time consuming.
While I agree, sometimes it's more about the chase than the end product. However during this type of chase ones over all learning is enhanced, something lost on many these days.
I have to agree with Blount8 that the 30-06 has been superseded by many other cartridges in competition, and in that respect, it probably is irrelevant.
In an earlier posting, I asked in which context, or for which use would the cartridge be judged. As Blount8 rightly points out, that for hunting, it is most certainly still relevant. For Competition, (other than WWII battle rifle competitions), there are many other cartridges that have superseded the 30-06. Sure, there may be an occasional old 30-06 match rifle show up at matches, but by and large, almost all serious competitors have gone to other cartridges.
For hunting, self defense, WWII battle rifle matches, or Garand matches, the cartridge is still used. But outside these uses, I think it has been superseded.
In an earlier posting, I asked in which context, or for which use would the cartridge be judged. As Blount8 rightly points out, that for hunting, it is most certainly still relevant. For Competition, (other than WWII battle rifle competitions), there are many other cartridges that have superseded the 30-06. Sure, there may be an occasional old 30-06 match rifle show up at matches, but by and large, almost all serious competitors have gone to other cartridges.
For hunting, self defense, WWII battle rifle matches, or Garand matches, the cartridge is still used. But outside these uses, I think it has been superseded.
Probably not the best long range, tactical, PRS type cartridge but still a very relevant hunting cartridge. I have a brother and brother-in-law that are outfitters in the Montana mountains and they love to see a client show up with a 30-06 for their hunt. They figure the guy knows what he is doing-not too much rifle or the latest craze just a solid hunter.
Glad to read this thread. Helps me feel a bit better about my decision to start upgrading my Savage 110 30-06 for more accuracy. Already pulled off the wood and installed a fully aluminum bedded stock. Next up is new optics and a match barrel along with a trigger. Not planning on competing but would like to see just how much performance I can squeeze out of it for target and hunting, before spending a whole lot more on another rifle.
By know means is there any idea that the 30-06 is a scatter gun.
My newest rifle....
Whether Iron sighted....
or scoped...
will do okay with the right ammo...
I havent shot it much. Its final configuration will have a Leupold 3-9X "green" M40 replica scope on it.
It has a teething issue that I have to correct for in my reloading practices but with that CMP sourced Lapua 167 Scenar or the Hornady 168 AMAX Garand ammo it is plenty accurate.
The downside for comps comes in the increased recoil, weight, and availability of supply being likely the only guy at a match using that caliber.
My newest rifle....
Whether Iron sighted....
or scoped...
will do okay with the right ammo...
I havent shot it much. Its final configuration will have a Leupold 3-9X "green" M40 replica scope on it.
It has a teething issue that I have to correct for in my reloading practices but with that CMP sourced Lapua 167 Scenar or the Hornady 168 AMAX Garand ammo it is plenty accurate.
The downside for comps comes in the increased recoil, weight, and availability of supply being likely the only guy at a match using that caliber.
The Savage rifles can be VERY accurate. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. A friend of mine shoots a Savage set up like yours in 260 Remington at PRS matches, and he does quite well with it. Whatever happens to his score sure isn't the rifle's fault.
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30-06 should be venerated just for the cool ass factor of dropping those long slender cartridges into a magazine like some sort of British SubAltern surrounded by screaming Zulus or Afghanis that have you surrounded yet you know you will be center punching the shit on and through them.
Better analogy...
You are with Major Whittlesy and the Lost Battalion trying to line up Germans to score a two for one....
Better analogy...
You are with Major Whittlesy and the Lost Battalion trying to line up Germans to score a two for one....
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Damn Dude! Those are gorgeous! Jealous for sure... 30-06 is still a great cartridge.. Will handle anything in North America that has Meat with Feet out to 600 yards...
D
Deleted member 10043
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Anything that is accurate is relevant. Problem I'm seeing is too many people talking about recoil in general. Recoil has become so overrated. It should be nothing more than an afterthought.
Factory Remington 700LH CDL in 30-06. I'm hoping to upgrade the scope to a Nightforce SHV F1 soon.
This is my main hunting rifle. Very accurate and load development has been a breeze with many different bullets from 165 Game King, to Hornady 165 Interbond, to 180 Sierra Pro Hunter, to Berger 185 VLD hunting bullets. The old '06 is still my favorite hunting and long action cartridge.
Cherry picked 3 shot group with the Berger bullets.
This is my main hunting rifle. Very accurate and load development has been a breeze with many different bullets from 165 Game King, to Hornady 165 Interbond, to 180 Sierra Pro Hunter, to Berger 185 VLD hunting bullets. The old '06 is still my favorite hunting and long action cartridge.
Cherry picked 3 shot group with the Berger bullets.
If the goal is spotting your own hits/misses, making corrections, and engaging multiple targets under a time constraint, then recoils needs be a real concern. If the goal is a fun day out at the range with some new shooters, then recoil needs be a real concern. If the goal is one cold bore hit and max energy delivered to the target, then recoil is an afterthought. Relavence is dictated by purpose. I wouldn't take a 30-06 to a PRS comp any more than I'd take a 6BR elk hunting. Neither is more relavent than the other...
D
Deleted member 10043
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That is a load of shit. Damn near every infantry GI and Marine did exactly that in real life 24/7 with the '06. Fuck a bunch of "spotting your own hits/misses, making corrections, and engaging multiple targets under a time constraint, then recoils needs be a real concern."
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Seems everyone who has a brake on their 6.5 and 223 doesn't run one on their '06. 5lb hunting rifle against 11-12lb target/ hunting rifle is night and day. 208gr HPBT at 2750fps and the rifle recoils like my 223. 27" braked 11.5 lb 1917 action rifle. Build the rifle like any other"tacticool" and the '06 is great. OH, I shoot it to 1450 yards. will do a mile yet. Spotting hits beyond 200yards is fine. At a 100yards scope is blurred by muzzle blast. Next barrel is going to be a 30". And I always hear the 308 can do anything the '06 can do....then you find out they think a 150 grain "whatever" is the end all be all, Yea.... 308 and M-1 loads maybe close but one is low pressure and the other is a fairly full load of 4895ish powder. I can actually hear the difference in a hit on steel between the 190 load I run and the 208 load. 208 retains a lot more energy beyond a grand. So run what you want, practice more, crap on others ideas less. (Not directed at anyone) Just I have gotten tired of the "My buddy says" discussions. Build it, load it, and learn to shoot it. Most of all enjoy your sport.
D
Deleted member 10043
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Most accurate rifle I own is a .300 H&H shooting 190 SMK H4831 @2900 MV. A cartridge that was not designed for today's reloading in mind. Now, that just don't make no sense 
Get out of here with your logic and common sense, the crotchety old men are up past bedtime and you're pissing them off.
Yeah, 70+years ago. And as soon as prudent EVERY ARMY IN THE WORLD ditched long action rifle cartridges for short action rifle cartridges, then for “intermediate” cartridges like the 5.56, 7.62x39, and 5.45. Today, in 2018, who (other than the day-glow orange army) is fielding rifles in 30-06 or any other long action rifle cartridge as their main infantry weapon? Your rifle example betrays the lie of your words.
The 7.62 NATO was deemed better than the 30-06, then the 5.56 was deemed better than the 308 NATO- in no small part because the lower recoil reduces the strain of training.
I’ll go even further in saying that out to 300 y/m (further?) the 5.56 is better than 30-06 for combat as the low recoil and increased ammo load out more than makes up for the terminal ballistics of the venerable aught-six. And, where only the first shot counts in a long range engagement, the 30-06 is outclasses by the 300 WM and now the 30 PRC (what people say the 300wm wants to be when it grows up).
Any soldier in 1944 that would pass up a 2018 vintage ar15 to pick up a 1944 vintage garand (given equivalence of ammo logistics) was too stupid to serve.
Modern powders allow the 308win to achieve the same velocity and terminal energy as the 30-06 load used in the garand. The short action cartridge is at an advantage over the long action here. Likewise, the 300wm fits in the same long action footprint as the 30-06-advantage 300 wm.
Those same modern powders extend the legs of the 06 into the arena previously only reached by the magnum rifle cartridges.
Is the 30-06 still relevant? Sure, it will kill someone or some animal just as dead as any other rifle round. It carries more energy to the target than the prc flavor of the month cartridge, but is more difficult to shoot well- all else being equal. In a mountain rifle that gets carried all over hell and shot a hand full of times at a handful of game animals, I’d take the 06 over the 6creedmoor, given those two choices only. In a match weight rifle that is carried from stage to stage and is required to shoot relatively long strings of fire, under time constraint, for points, I’d take the 6creedmoor over the 06. Is one more relevant han the other? Yeah, but you need to define the purpose before deciding which is which.
You have to remember much military doctrine takes way more into account than we have to weight, supply logistics, cost for purchase of items into the billions, and most important loans west common denominator trainee.
I'm a fan of milspec stuff most times but that may not apply to civilian shooting sports.
D
Deleted member 10043
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He is referring to progress to support any competent and experienced PRS style shooter can't shoot the '06 successfully. I believe he can do it. I was referring to people being discouraged because people can't take a little recoil properly.
I only reference the mil to counter the point by Culpepper about GIs and their aught sixes. As soon as they could, and while sitting on a mountain of wartime production ammunition, they said "there's gotta be a better way." Hell, if it weren't for Doug MacArthur, we'd probably be having this discussion about the 276 Pederson.
I'm a fan of vintage military rifles, but they are fun to shoot because of what they are, not the cartridge they shoot.
I'm also a hunter and while I don't have a "hunting rifle" chambered in 30-06, I do have one in 270win and one in 300wm. My garand is also a prized possession that doesn't get shot as much as it should.
In a "battle rifle," the 7.62 NATO has shown to do everything a 30-06 can do. In a sniper rifle, the 300wm is superior to the -06.
Define success. Can an experienced PRS shooter shoot the -06 well? Hell yes. Hundreds of thousands of deer hunters are successful every year with their -06s, and their combined shooting experience wouldn't fill a squad at most local matches. But, what is success? What is well? If success is defined as "can engage and score hits on multiple targets under a time constraint" then I'd say that any PRS shooter can be successful. But, if success is defined as "can engage and score hits on multiple targets under a time constraint, and score more points than the other shooters in the field who are shooting 6s and 6.5s" then I'd wager "success" will be more elusive.
Can a wide receiver catch a football without sticky gloves? Can a NASCAR driver complete a lap in a factory production (stock) car? Yes and yes. Can be successful and can be competitive are two different things.
Progress is the continual march toward obsolescence. Is the 06 obsolete? As a military cartridge? Absolutely and uniquivocally. Is it obsolete as a competitive rifle cartridge? While the 06 has a long and storied history at the National Match, except for the vintage matches, I'd say the sun has set on the 06 there as well. Can you shoot the 06 at a PRS match. Sure, but not if you want to win. Hell, I don't want to absorb the recoil of 80 rounds of 06. The 6.5 creedmoor is much more pleasant to shoot. And that leads me to...
PRS is a game, played with rifles, competitively, but recreationally, the objective of which is to hit one or more steel targets with one or more bullets with sufficient energy that a dedicated "spotter" can recognize that impact. When a 223rem is up to the task, and when more and more longer distance targets are equipped with electronic hit indicators, why would you absorb the recoil of an 06, when a short action cartridge is more than adequate? Yes, you can do it- just as much as Jeff Gordon could drive Talladega in a stock Impala.
Does Jacob Bynum compete in PRS? I'd be surprised if he didn't, but I don't know. If he does, what does he shoot?
But, I don't think the OP wants to compete, and I think we on Snipershide are often miopic to the larger shooting sport. PRS is not the apex, it is just one more presuit- and a game. Can an accurate rifle be built in 06? Without question. Can it be fun to shoot? This is, after all, recreation. Sure, but I'm not a recoil junky. Define the purpose and the cartridge becomes clear. I don't find the 06 enjoyable to shoot, a box of 20 and I'm done. Even the garand that makes me giggle when the clip jumps free leaves me sore after a while. I don't have that issue with the 6.5Creedmoor. 80 rounds in a match and I leave wanting more. As a hunting cartridge, I think the 06 will be with us for a LONG time. Enough gas for anything (other than the big bears, and with an understanding of range limitations) in North America, and with sufficiently low recoil that most can shoot it well, it is a great combination of terminal ballistics and shootability. As I said in my first post in this thread... Is it relevant? Define your purpose.
I know my purpose. I have a Savage 30-06 I got 25 years ago at age 18. It's dropped a number of game. It kicks less than my Weatherby, especially after removing the wood stock with the hockey puck "recoil pad" and putting a better stock on it. I'm not going to shoot matches with it, but want it to be as accurate as possible for hunting and out on the range so I can hold my own with friends and family when competing for who's buying the beer. Now after the wedding is paid for, then I'm at minimum picking up a Tikka or Bergara in another chambering to start getting into long range shooting with. My soon to be father-in-law is already wanting to take me out to one of the courses from Bergara or one of the others.
I think the 30-06 will always be relevant if for no other reason than the history behind it.
As far as long distance shooting, personally, I’d be more interested in a load for a 175grn .270
As far as long distance shooting, personally, I’d be more interested in a load for a 175grn .270
Very effective of course. Nothing like slinging up and going prone with an M1.
Idk why but I think I’m gonna sell a few guns and build an 06 after this thread. 30-06 has never done me wrong for a hunting or paper round. The recoil to me really is not awful for the energy you hit deer/elk with. Might start a thread “build my hunting 30-06” for some ideas . Thoughts ?
I have a pair of .30-'06's, my prewar SA Garand, and a bargain Savage Axis II.
Using handloads, the Garand shoots to N/M accuracy requirements, and the Axis II is still waiting for it's ideal load to be found.
It will, but because my physical condition no longer seems even close to what it was 50 years ago, I will be working with 110V-Max and 125 Nosler Ballistic tips. Flatter shooting, maybe more accurate, easier to shoot a lot of. I figure if it's within 300yd, it's fair game.
I did not like the Axis II when I bought it; the plastic stock design seemed ungainly, and the 3-9 Kaspa scope was OK, but the mounting seemed awkward. I later discovered that there was a mounting issue from the factory. I replaced the entire optic arrangement with steel 20MOA EGW base, some decent rings and a Simmons 6-18x50 family heirloom scope. The stock also got the cut, replaced with a Boyd's Laminate stock. The rifle was transformed into something that looks pretty good and may have a potential for accuracy.
The whole arrangement seems about as light or lighter than my Post-63 Win 70 30-06 Featherweight that's harvesting bunches of deer for my SIL. It's low on the priorities, but loads are being shot occasionally.
Greg
Using handloads, the Garand shoots to N/M accuracy requirements, and the Axis II is still waiting for it's ideal load to be found.
It will, but because my physical condition no longer seems even close to what it was 50 years ago, I will be working with 110V-Max and 125 Nosler Ballistic tips. Flatter shooting, maybe more accurate, easier to shoot a lot of. I figure if it's within 300yd, it's fair game.
I did not like the Axis II when I bought it; the plastic stock design seemed ungainly, and the 3-9 Kaspa scope was OK, but the mounting seemed awkward. I later discovered that there was a mounting issue from the factory. I replaced the entire optic arrangement with steel 20MOA EGW base, some decent rings and a Simmons 6-18x50 family heirloom scope. The stock also got the cut, replaced with a Boyd's Laminate stock. The rifle was transformed into something that looks pretty good and may have a potential for accuracy.
The whole arrangement seems about as light or lighter than my Post-63 Win 70 30-06 Featherweight that's harvesting bunches of deer for my SIL. It's low on the priorities, but loads are being shot occasionally.
Greg
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I am curious. Did most of those animals end up with one or two extra holes?
I didn’t read through this thread and dont have to. The 30-06 is more relavant today than ever before with newer powders and better bullets.
Remember to seperate what people are doing and using to win games as it is usually not the best at much anything else.
Remember to seperate what people are doing and using to win games as it is usually not the best at much anything else.
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Mine started out as a Rem 700 long range. It's more accurate than I am.
You speak the truth my good man. Often gamers get caught up in what smashes steel or punches holes in paper. They often forget about killing game or people for some. Saying the 30-06 is not relevant today is like saying a revolver isn’t relevant. It may not be relevant in “PRS” but it sure as hell is relevant enough to keep the big box stores selling out of the good stuff often enough.
My first Arizona mule deer was shot at 525 yards. The far shoulder was only held on by skin....200 grain Barnes LRX was through and through. ELK at 400 yards the bullets were recovered in the far side hide. That will do...
A 30-06 is basically an upsized 6.5 Creed.
I get 2800fps out of a 215gr Berger hybrid with RL26, 27” Rock Creek with PTG NM chamber, and the barrel isn’t even broken in, should speed up a bit still.
That’s almost spot on with top-end 147gr 6.5 Creed loads if I’m not crazy. Except with a 46% increase in bullet mass...
I get 2800fps out of a 215gr Berger hybrid with RL26, 27” Rock Creek with PTG NM chamber, and the barrel isn’t even broken in, should speed up a bit still.
That’s almost spot on with top-end 147gr 6.5 Creed loads if I’m not crazy. Except with a 46% increase in bullet mass...
That’s right.
The 30-06 predated both the 6.5 Creed and your presence on this site by 100 years.
It’s a beast.
The 30-06 predated both the 6.5 Creed and your presence on this site by 100 years.
It’s a beast.
For hunting, yes absolutely. Especially if someone is of pretty modest means and can only afford 1 rifle. For competition, probably not. There’s just many more way better options.
Same thing though could be said about the 7mm Rem Mag. It’s not a gamer rifle but it’s a bone crusher to pretty flippin long distances. I love mine and every time I think about selling it or trading it for the newer shiny I always come back to the fact that in order for it to make a legit difference to me I’d have to be shooting beyond a mile routinely, which I haven’t yet been able to do (and believe me I’ve been trying to find a spot). So while it’s not sexy, it’s still relevant as fuck to anything with fur within 1400 yards.
1. Every big game animal I have shot has received a confirmation shot except one. Every animal would have quickly died from the first shot but why not send another? For example, my elk last year probably weighed 500 lbs, I hit her at 360 yards with a 180gr. TSX. She was quartering away, the bullet entered behind her right shoulder, passed through her heart (had a 2" hole in the middle), and exited out the left shoulder. Elk are so damn durable that even though she had no heart and a broken shoulder she still kept trying to limp away so I sent the second which dropped her on the spot. That first shot was guaranteed to be lethal and she probably would have dropped within 50 yards, however, bullets are cheap so might as well send another. Would a 300 Win Mag have dropped her faster? Maybe, but a 30-06 will drop any big game animal in the lower 48 within 400 yards.
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Elk are undeniably tough. I witnessed one shot with a 30-06 complete pass thru of chest (100 yd shot) also with approx. 2" hole in heart sprint for 100 yds before dropping.
You know why no one panic buys 30-06 ammo? Men who own 30-06’s don’t panic.
“There ain’t many problems that a man can’t fix
With a couple hundred dollars and a 30-06.”
With a couple hundred dollars and a 30-06.”
I know of one 30-06 that is TRULY relevant. So relevant, that I dare not tell the story of the accuracy, because it just is not believable. But there were several of us that witnessed this accuracy and a member here owns the rifle... (@armorpl8chikn )
My 06 will probably be the one they pry out of my cold dead hands. Hopefully it'll be empty. . . . .
While I appreciate my good friend tagging me into this thread, I really want no part of this prick waving dick fight....however...
I'm amazed at the incredible number of "fowdy five" nuts, while when the 06 is mentioned it's fargin crickets and people starting at their shoes and the ceiling. The '06 may mean 1906, but the cartridge was actually developed in 1903(A3-03...? Ring any bells?)and it's final military iteration was in 1906. I'll leave it there for brevity.
Ask German Salazar if the 30-06 is "relevant".
If you think the 308 can do anything the 30-06 can do, you are ballistically retarded. You are probably comparing old M2 ball to modern 308 loads.
The Garand is a weak platform. The action isn't particularly strong, they are actually quite tender. It is often the particular 06 people use to boost the 308.
I'm not gonna post pics, and targets, and load data, etc. Oh I have plenty, but I couldn't care less about "convincing" any of you about shit. I'm too old, tired, and in too much pain to argue and piss for distance. I've got an '06 the likes of which few of you have seen.
Trued late eighties 700
27" Krieger #18
A2 McMillan
TB Break
USO 3.2-17
Chambered "Serengeti reamer"
It is a no frills no bullshit tactical rifle. If you are serious about owning one, PM me and I'll tell you who built it.
2880fps dope confirmed, with 190 SMK.
i haven't had it out of the safe in years.
i did post pics and targets on the hide years ago. Had two people who wanted to buy it.
Everyone who has watched it shoot is in awe of it, except for that one time at Woody's, shit that was aweful. That was also before it had a box magazine.
I think it is mostly the fact that it is an anomaly, it's an 06 that shoots like a bench rest rifle.
When a little modern magic is applied to the 06, it will surprise you. The secret is in subtle changes to the chamber.
if I was 25 years younger, I'd take it and maybe open some eyes in some precision matches. Unfortunately that ship has sailed. I'm simply unable to shoot matches anymore.
Yeah I know that's convenient, which is why I gave the disclaimer, I'm just making my statement.
Build one right, and you'll have a 30 caliber Magnum that burns 18gr less powder.
Shoot what you like, but always remember: No matter how bad ass you think your rifle or cartridge, or your shooting is, there is always something better.
I'm amazed at the incredible number of "fowdy five" nuts, while when the 06 is mentioned it's fargin crickets and people starting at their shoes and the ceiling. The '06 may mean 1906, but the cartridge was actually developed in 1903(A3-03...? Ring any bells?)and it's final military iteration was in 1906. I'll leave it there for brevity.
Ask German Salazar if the 30-06 is "relevant".
If you think the 308 can do anything the 30-06 can do, you are ballistically retarded. You are probably comparing old M2 ball to modern 308 loads.
The Garand is a weak platform. The action isn't particularly strong, they are actually quite tender. It is often the particular 06 people use to boost the 308.
I'm not gonna post pics, and targets, and load data, etc. Oh I have plenty, but I couldn't care less about "convincing" any of you about shit. I'm too old, tired, and in too much pain to argue and piss for distance. I've got an '06 the likes of which few of you have seen.
Trued late eighties 700
27" Krieger #18
A2 McMillan
TB Break
USO 3.2-17
Chambered "Serengeti reamer"
It is a no frills no bullshit tactical rifle. If you are serious about owning one, PM me and I'll tell you who built it.
2880fps dope confirmed, with 190 SMK.
i haven't had it out of the safe in years.
i did post pics and targets on the hide years ago. Had two people who wanted to buy it.
Everyone who has watched it shoot is in awe of it, except for that one time at Woody's, shit that was aweful. That was also before it had a box magazine.
I think it is mostly the fact that it is an anomaly, it's an 06 that shoots like a bench rest rifle.
When a little modern magic is applied to the 06, it will surprise you. The secret is in subtle changes to the chamber.
if I was 25 years younger, I'd take it and maybe open some eyes in some precision matches. Unfortunately that ship has sailed. I'm simply unable to shoot matches anymore.
Yeah I know that's convenient, which is why I gave the disclaimer, I'm just making my statement.
Build one right, and you'll have a 30 caliber Magnum that burns 18gr less powder.
Shoot what you like, but always remember: No matter how bad ass you think your rifle or cartridge, or your shooting is, there is always something better.
If I recall, we drew first relay at Woody's and the first stage was almost at Sunrise. We couldn't see the targets..., but the last 4 stages were all top 4 rankings and we finished Top 10... would have been Top 5 if we could have seen what we were shooting at.
Anyway, I don't think I will ever see what I saw with any rifle, any caliber than this 30-06. A truly harmonically incomparable piece of 30 caliber goodness.
Didn't he draw regular rounds from the armory during this shoot? And I believe the shooters all took a collection and bought this rifle from the Govt to give to him.... indeed, this is an awesome story.
D
