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Re: 30 cal 240SMK
Tom,
No suppressor (yet), but It's one of those things I see happening somewhere down the road.
This is my rig. M700 LH, Douglas #7 1/10 22.5" bbl, A2, MK4 16X on a 45 moa base, A2, Badger stuff all around,
If I wasn't so far away, I'd love to wring it out on your range someday. Fortunately I do live near some wide open public lands to stretch it out on.
Tom,
No suppressor (yet), but It's one of those things I see happening somewhere down the road.
This is my rig. M700 LH, Douglas #7 1/10 22.5" bbl, A2, MK4 16X on a 45 moa base, A2, Badger stuff all around,
If I wasn't so far away, I'd love to wring it out on your range someday. Fortunately I do live near some wide open public lands to stretch it out on.
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I wasn't so far away, I'd love to wring it out on your range someday. Fortunately I do live near some wide open public lands to stretch it out on. </div></div>
Uh... Road Trip!!! We could split gas!
There are some venues that I'd love to shoot at before I become irrelevant. Thunder Valley is on my list.
Frank, Someday I'd like to make it to RO, too.
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I wasn't so far away, I'd love to wring it out on your range someday. Fortunately I do live near some wide open public lands to stretch it out on. </div></div>
Uh... Road Trip!!! We could split gas!
There are some venues that I'd love to shoot at before I become irrelevant. Thunder Valley is on my list.
Frank, Someday I'd like to make it to RO, too.
John
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
John, that'd be nearly 4000 miles round trip, and several days on the road. Probably about $2K for gas/food/lodging.
That's too painful for me.
John, that'd be nearly 4000 miles round trip, and several days on the road. Probably about $2K for gas/food/lodging.
That's too painful for me.
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">John, that'd be nearly 4000 miles round trip, and several days on the road. Probably about $2K for gas/food/lodging.
That's too painful for me. </div></div>
I kid. You must have missed the subtle voice inflection.
It is especially hard for those of us who have a huge back yard (and the seemingly prerequisite poor economy to go with it) to justify traveling long distances to shoot. We're horribly spoiled. A long drive to shoot, to me anyway, is Shane's house... about 3 1/2 hours. But, alas... I dream of shooting with my brothers in other parts of the country. Lots to be learned.
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">John, that'd be nearly 4000 miles round trip, and several days on the road. Probably about $2K for gas/food/lodging.
That's too painful for me. </div></div>
It is especially hard for those of us who have a huge back yard (and the seemingly prerequisite poor economy to go with it) to justify traveling long distances to shoot. We're horribly spoiled. A long drive to shoot, to me anyway, is Shane's house... about 3 1/2 hours. But, alas... I dream of shooting with my brothers in other parts of the country. Lots to be learned.
John
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
I kinda figured, but you made me bust out the map and crunch some quick numbers.....grin
I kinda figured, but you made me bust out the map and crunch some quick numbers.....grin
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tom Sarver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sir,
The .300 win mag is a better choice than what they have for certain uses. IMHO I think if the Marine Corps went to the .260 rem they would be amazed of what they could do.
The only ones who would truly know and understand and appreciate the difference is someone who has used a .308 for a while then switch to the .260. OMG..is what you would hear everytime. This would even be a better choice than the .300 win mag in this application. Their first excuss for not using a .260 rem would be barrel wear. Well, last I knew we could afford another aircraft carrier and some more jets we really dont need. Imagine all the laser range finders and .260 rems you could build for that..and extra barrels and ammo..oh..and some hard core training everyday when not actually performing.
Duh...is what I say.
There is nothing wrong with a .308 either. I love it and mastered it some time ago, and was very good with out to 1500 yards. But that was me and 20 years experience and hundreds and thousands of rounds a year down range.
There has NEVER been a former Marine SS or Army sniper that has shot my .260 Rem that didnt wish they had one to use in service. They were simply amazed by the performance and flat shooting as well as the 30% more energy at 1000 yards..not to mention half the wind drift. Again, barrel wear, give me a break. Thats equates to 3000 dead for sure bad guys who think it's ok to be an ass clown. I can't say enough about the .260 rem. but at least a .300 win. and 338 LM are in the works.
I know some SEALS have been using .300 wins. for sometime. Great weapon indeed and they deserve the best we can provide them, not cheat them out of a life saving opportunity because of some barrel wear.
</div></div>
I could not agree more with everything you said. The 7mm Short mag with 180 Bergers or maybe the 200 gr. ULD's should be in the mix as well. I really like the lighter potential rifle package and smaller signature of the sub 30 calibers. I have never messed with a 260, but I would imagine it would be easy to do a 12 pound rifle in a 260 that a 338 would need to weigh 18 pounds to have the same level of accuracy potential. I shake my head in disbelief at the M40-a3 19 pounds....unreal
As far as barrel wear (and I heard that when I was pushing to get away from the 308) viewed purely from an economical argument; how much money could be saved in payments to dead Marines and Soldiers familys if the bad guy that killed them would not have been missed when shot at by a 308?
The barrel wear issue is the dumbest argument I know of.
Looking forward to meeting you Tom at one of your steel shoots.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tom Sarver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sir,
The .300 win mag is a better choice than what they have for certain uses. IMHO I think if the Marine Corps went to the .260 rem they would be amazed of what they could do.
The only ones who would truly know and understand and appreciate the difference is someone who has used a .308 for a while then switch to the .260. OMG..is what you would hear everytime. This would even be a better choice than the .300 win mag in this application. Their first excuss for not using a .260 rem would be barrel wear. Well, last I knew we could afford another aircraft carrier and some more jets we really dont need. Imagine all the laser range finders and .260 rems you could build for that..and extra barrels and ammo..oh..and some hard core training everyday when not actually performing.
Duh...is what I say.
There is nothing wrong with a .308 either. I love it and mastered it some time ago, and was very good with out to 1500 yards. But that was me and 20 years experience and hundreds and thousands of rounds a year down range.
There has NEVER been a former Marine SS or Army sniper that has shot my .260 Rem that didnt wish they had one to use in service. They were simply amazed by the performance and flat shooting as well as the 30% more energy at 1000 yards..not to mention half the wind drift. Again, barrel wear, give me a break. Thats equates to 3000 dead for sure bad guys who think it's ok to be an ass clown. I can't say enough about the .260 rem. but at least a .300 win. and 338 LM are in the works.
I know some SEALS have been using .300 wins. for sometime. Great weapon indeed and they deserve the best we can provide them, not cheat them out of a life saving opportunity because of some barrel wear.
</div></div>
I could not agree more with everything you said. The 7mm Short mag with 180 Bergers or maybe the 200 gr. ULD's should be in the mix as well. I really like the lighter potential rifle package and smaller signature of the sub 30 calibers. I have never messed with a 260, but I would imagine it would be easy to do a 12 pound rifle in a 260 that a 338 would need to weigh 18 pounds to have the same level of accuracy potential. I shake my head in disbelief at the M40-a3 19 pounds....unreal
As far as barrel wear (and I heard that when I was pushing to get away from the 308) viewed purely from an economical argument; how much money could be saved in payments to dead Marines and Soldiers familys if the bad guy that killed them would not have been missed when shot at by a 308?
The barrel wear issue is the dumbest argument I know of.
Looking forward to meeting you Tom at one of your steel shoots.
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
To add to the original post on the subject of the 240 SMK, my 30-378 gets over 3100 fps with them.
To add to the original post on the subject of the 240 SMK, my 30-378 gets over 3100 fps with them.
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
A big misconception of the 240 SMK is because it's shaped like a football it's not areo dynamic. It has a published BC if .711 and shooting above it's intended speed of around 2600-2700 fps to me seems to more than accurate. The accuracy of the bullet at certain speeds I have not been able to beat with any other bullet weather it be the same velocity or higher. Again, this is based on my experience and tuning methods.
Anyone considering the 240 SMK should be prepaired to grin a lot.
One more thing, when tuning with the 240's at 200 yards I could consistantly print 5 shot groups in the mid .200's. even though it's not considered a BR bullet.
A big misconception of the 240 SMK is because it's shaped like a football it's not areo dynamic. It has a published BC if .711 and shooting above it's intended speed of around 2600-2700 fps to me seems to more than accurate. The accuracy of the bullet at certain speeds I have not been able to beat with any other bullet weather it be the same velocity or higher. Again, this is based on my experience and tuning methods.
Anyone considering the 240 SMK should be prepaired to grin a lot.
One more thing, when tuning with the 240's at 200 yards I could consistantly print 5 shot groups in the mid .200's. even though it's not considered a BR bullet.
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
Any of you guys way out west if your interested in coming out and shooting with us there are ways to do it cheaper and quicker.
You would be more than welcome to ship your rifles and or gear ahead to TVP and fly out. We could pick you up at the airport or you cound rent a car. I've tickets as low as $200.00 round trip.
We could have a heck of time shooting/testing 240's at 600 1000 1760 and 2000 yards. Just a thought.
What ever you decide we would be glad to help you out.
Any of you guys way out west if your interested in coming out and shooting with us there are ways to do it cheaper and quicker.
You would be more than welcome to ship your rifles and or gear ahead to TVP and fly out. We could pick you up at the airport or you cound rent a car. I've tickets as low as $200.00 round trip.
We could have a heck of time shooting/testing 240's at 600 1000 1760 and 2000 yards. Just a thought.
What ever you decide we would be glad to help you out.
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tom Sarver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A big misconception of the 240 SMK is because it's shaped like a football it's not areo dynamic. It has a published BC if .711 </div></div>
Tom, If I compare Bryan Litz's numbers to the published BC in JBM, I get the following (70 deg. F, 26 inHG, 3000 FPS):
<span style="font-weight: bold">.711</span>
2500 yds. - 31.5 mil
SS to 2175
<span style="font-weight: bold">Litz</span>
2500 yds. - 35.4 mil
SS to 1850 yds.
It's not that it is not aerodynamic. It's just not as aerodynamic as it could have been (or as it's claimed to be). Obviously for your purpose the bullet is amazing, so it doesn't matter.
But for someone shooting a smaller .30 cal, we need all the efficiency we can get for longer ranges. For right now the 210/208's are the best answer for our lack of horsepower.
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tom Sarver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A big misconception of the 240 SMK is because it's shaped like a football it's not areo dynamic. It has a published BC if .711 </div></div>
Tom, If I compare Bryan Litz's numbers to the published BC in JBM, I get the following (70 deg. F, 26 inHG, 3000 FPS):
<span style="font-weight: bold">.711</span>
2500 yds. - 31.5 mil
SS to 2175
<span style="font-weight: bold">Litz</span>
2500 yds. - 35.4 mil
SS to 1850 yds.
It's not that it is not aerodynamic. It's just not as aerodynamic as it could have been (or as it's claimed to be). Obviously for your purpose the bullet is amazing, so it doesn't matter.
But for someone shooting a smaller .30 cal, we need all the efficiency we can get for longer ranges. For right now the 210/208's are the best answer for our lack of horsepower.
John
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tom Sarver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any of you guys way out west if your interested in coming out and shooting with us there are ways to do it cheaper and quicker.
You would be more than welcome to ship your rifles and or gear ahead to TVP and fly out. We could pick you up at the airport or you cound rent a car. I've tickets as low as $200.00 round trip.
We could have a heck of time shooting/testing 240's at 600 1000 1760 and 2000 yards. Just a thought.
What ever you decide we would be glad to help you out. </div></div>
That's a very generous offer, Tom. I would LOVE to come out and shoot with you guys. Let's see how the spring plays out. The last two years have been a little rough, economically speaking.
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tom Sarver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any of you guys way out west if your interested in coming out and shooting with us there are ways to do it cheaper and quicker.
You would be more than welcome to ship your rifles and or gear ahead to TVP and fly out. We could pick you up at the airport or you cound rent a car. I've tickets as low as $200.00 round trip.
We could have a heck of time shooting/testing 240's at 600 1000 1760 and 2000 yards. Just a thought.
What ever you decide we would be glad to help you out. </div></div>
That's a very generous offer, Tom. I would LOVE to come out and shoot with you guys. Let's see how the spring plays out. The last two years have been a little rough, economically speaking.
John
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
Just to clairify would not recommend the 240 SMK if you can't get it to it's best performance velocity which is around 2900-3000 fps. But I once heard someone say there is nothing wrong with accurate bullets that move slow, they just take longer to get there. I hope I don't sound contradictiing but that's why I use the 210 range for tactical use in the Hulk. I want the high velocity to buck wind and flat trajectories that make my extreme long range shots happen the first time on little bitty steel plates. A 210 VLD at 3350 plus FPS is nothing short of awesome out of a sub half MOA rig. I once shot a whitetail deer at 375 or so yards and I litterally saw light through the body as the bullet blew a hole thru it the size of a soft ball. Notice I said I saw light..the recoil wasn't enough to push my eye out of the scope and I saw the hair part and the hole open up clear thru in a milli second. The head droped like a rock as the body rose off the ground and the feet touched together as the body arched..it was dead before it hit the ground. And the sound of the thud as the bullet passed thru sounded like a pumpkin being dropped from 500 ft on concrete. With a zero of 100 yards I still held dead on behind the shoulder and never made an MOA adjustment. Food for thought.
Just to clairify would not recommend the 240 SMK if you can't get it to it's best performance velocity which is around 2900-3000 fps. But I once heard someone say there is nothing wrong with accurate bullets that move slow, they just take longer to get there. I hope I don't sound contradictiing but that's why I use the 210 range for tactical use in the Hulk. I want the high velocity to buck wind and flat trajectories that make my extreme long range shots happen the first time on little bitty steel plates. A 210 VLD at 3350 plus FPS is nothing short of awesome out of a sub half MOA rig. I once shot a whitetail deer at 375 or so yards and I litterally saw light through the body as the bullet blew a hole thru it the size of a soft ball. Notice I said I saw light..the recoil wasn't enough to push my eye out of the scope and I saw the hair part and the hole open up clear thru in a milli second. The head droped like a rock as the body rose off the ground and the feet touched together as the body arched..it was dead before it hit the ground. And the sound of the thud as the bullet passed thru sounded like a pumpkin being dropped from 500 ft on concrete. With a zero of 100 yards I still held dead on behind the shoulder and never made an MOA adjustment. Food for thought.
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
The 240 SMK design may have an advantage over some of the VLDs in holding stability through the transonic range, if a shooter is pushing that far.
The 240 SMK design may have an advantage over some of the VLDs in holding stability through the transonic range, if a shooter is pushing that far.
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
I aggree...like a good quarter back with a good arm can throw a football far with enough power to spin perfectly down range to it's intended target with no wobble as it slows down. Kinda like a 240..lol. I have shot groups at one mile you can cover with your hand centered up on the target with them.
I aggree...like a good quarter back with a good arm can throw a football far with enough power to spin perfectly down range to it's intended target with no wobble as it slows down. Kinda like a 240..lol. I have shot groups at one mile you can cover with your hand centered up on the target with them.
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
Tom- Since you've had the opportunity to push the 210 class bullets through the sound barrier, can you weigh in on how the 208 Amax and/or 210 Berger transition to subsonic? My 30-06 doesn't have the ponies to throw the 240's as well as the 208/210's but I am thinking about bringing it with me the next time I get out to visit and seeing how my "untactical" 30-06 will do at a mile, just for grins.
Merry Christmas, Gents.
Tom- Since you've had the opportunity to push the 210 class bullets through the sound barrier, can you weigh in on how the 208 Amax and/or 210 Berger transition to subsonic? My 30-06 doesn't have the ponies to throw the 240's as well as the 208/210's but I am thinking about bringing it with me the next time I get out to visit and seeing how my "untactical" 30-06 will do at a mile, just for grins.
Merry Christmas, Gents.
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tom- Since you've had the opportunity to push the 210 class bullets through the sound barrier, can you weigh in on how the 208 Amax and/or 210 Berger transition to subsonic? My 30-06 doesn't have the ponies to throw the 240's as well as the 208/210's but I am thinking about bringing it with me the next time I get out to visit and seeing how my "untactical" 30-06 will do at a mile, just for grins.
Merry Christmas, Gents. </div></div>
Yeah,
I'd like to know more about this too. The 208's transition pretty predictably (well, at our altitude anyway) but if there was additional justification for the added expense of the Bergers, it would be good to know. It starts getting expensive doing a lot of experimentation.
John
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tom- Since you've had the opportunity to push the 210 class bullets through the sound barrier, can you weigh in on how the 208 Amax and/or 210 Berger transition to subsonic? My 30-06 doesn't have the ponies to throw the 240's as well as the 208/210's but I am thinking about bringing it with me the next time I get out to visit and seeing how my "untactical" 30-06 will do at a mile, just for grins.
Merry Christmas, Gents. </div></div>
Yeah,
I'd like to know more about this too. The 208's transition pretty predictably (well, at our altitude anyway) but if there was additional justification for the added expense of the Bergers, it would be good to know. It starts getting expensive doing a lot of experimentation.
John
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
I shot 208 Amax bullets out of the Hulk here and there in 09.
At one mile they shot flatter than anything else. 48 MOA on average at over 3300 FPS. I couldn't get the accuracy out of them I was looking for compared to the 210 Berger but they were a great long range high BC bullet. It could have been that I was pushing them to hard but I didnt want to slow them down they shot so flat. I often think of giving them another try since I have about 3000 of them sitting in the basement. Maybe my new set up will bring new results.
I shot 208 Amax bullets out of the Hulk here and there in 09.
At one mile they shot flatter than anything else. 48 MOA on average at over 3300 FPS. I couldn't get the accuracy out of them I was looking for compared to the 210 Berger but they were a great long range high BC bullet. It could have been that I was pushing them to hard but I didnt want to slow them down they shot so flat. I often think of giving them another try since I have about 3000 of them sitting in the basement. Maybe my new set up will bring new results.
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
bohem,
I'm not sure how to read into the sub sonic realm and text out there about it. I think it's over rated as we dicussed earlier here at the range. I think some bullets, if they have an over spin can go much further with no issues to a certain point although they have slowed down to sub sonic speeds. Most importantly is HOW STRAIGHT THEY COME OUT OF THE BARREL when launched. If you have a very TRUE custom rifle with superb loads (zero run out case and buulet combined)you will always be able to shoot further more accurately. When I say further I mean 500 to 1000 yards further...where it shows.
And when you add to it you shooting the bullet 100-300 FPS faster than it's intended out of barrel that's a 10 twist when the bullet mfg. requires only an 11 then that there could be a contributing factor. The best way to learn is to actually go and and push what you have to the limit then sit back and ask yourself what now? I have seen .308 rifles with 11 or 12 twist barrels that sent 155 Scenars to the mile target and hit with great accuracy. That's why I dont read into the speed of a projectile that is slowing down so much. I go by what I see and experience and consistancy. I think to sum it up, certain quality bullets going a certain speed out of a certain quality barrel determines what the out come is going to be for accuracy at extreme long range. Best I can do with that..lol.
bohem,
I'm not sure how to read into the sub sonic realm and text out there about it. I think it's over rated as we dicussed earlier here at the range. I think some bullets, if they have an over spin can go much further with no issues to a certain point although they have slowed down to sub sonic speeds. Most importantly is HOW STRAIGHT THEY COME OUT OF THE BARREL when launched. If you have a very TRUE custom rifle with superb loads (zero run out case and buulet combined)you will always be able to shoot further more accurately. When I say further I mean 500 to 1000 yards further...where it shows.
And when you add to it you shooting the bullet 100-300 FPS faster than it's intended out of barrel that's a 10 twist when the bullet mfg. requires only an 11 then that there could be a contributing factor. The best way to learn is to actually go and and push what you have to the limit then sit back and ask yourself what now? I have seen .308 rifles with 11 or 12 twist barrels that sent 155 Scenars to the mile target and hit with great accuracy. That's why I dont read into the speed of a projectile that is slowing down so much. I go by what I see and experience and consistancy. I think to sum it up, certain quality bullets going a certain speed out of a certain quality barrel determines what the out come is going to be for accuracy at extreme long range. Best I can do with that..lol.
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
Thanks. I've heard similar comments about the Amax line in general at those kinds of speeds, my 6 Rem AI and 6.5-06 had the snot to push certain Amax's over 3300 and they didn't do too well, there was a fine line to walk between tearing speeds and disintegration. I'm low on 208's at this point since they've been impossible to get for a while but I'll segregate a box of ammo and save it til the next visit, we can try it out, I'd like to get your thoughts and input at those distances.
Thanks. I've heard similar comments about the Amax line in general at those kinds of speeds, my 6 Rem AI and 6.5-06 had the snot to push certain Amax's over 3300 and they didn't do too well, there was a fine line to walk between tearing speeds and disintegration. I'm low on 208's at this point since they've been impossible to get for a while but I'll segregate a box of ammo and save it til the next visit, we can try it out, I'd like to get your thoughts and input at those distances.
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
No problem Josh that's what we're here for. I love tinkering and helping people find answers, LOTS of times I learn something too out of the experience. Let me know when you want to head out and I will be ready.
No problem Josh that's what we're here for. I love tinkering and helping people find answers, LOTS of times I learn something too out of the experience. Let me know when you want to head out and I will be ready.
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
Tom,
For extreme long range work out of a custom 30-378 (34 in. 3/3 Pac-nor .333 neck on a Hall action) would you prefer the 240 SMK or the 210 Berger? I have not messed with this rifle much and I know I need to test both bullets, but I was under the assumption that Bergers did not like much over 3000 fps. I shoot the 210's out of a 300 Wby (just a tick under 3000) and they are awesome.
I only tested the 240's out of the 30-378 once and when they only showed 3100 fps I got a little bummed and lost interest in the rifle. I was hoping the 34 in barrel would produce 3300 fps. Judging from your experience perhaps I should be looking to slow them down to around 3000 anyway. of course I like as much velocity as possible, but only if it is accurate.
Tom,
For extreme long range work out of a custom 30-378 (34 in. 3/3 Pac-nor .333 neck on a Hall action) would you prefer the 240 SMK or the 210 Berger? I have not messed with this rifle much and I know I need to test both bullets, but I was under the assumption that Bergers did not like much over 3000 fps. I shoot the 210's out of a 300 Wby (just a tick under 3000) and they are awesome.
I only tested the 240's out of the 30-378 once and when they only showed 3100 fps I got a little bummed and lost interest in the rifle. I was hoping the 34 in barrel would produce 3300 fps. Judging from your experience perhaps I should be looking to slow them down to around 3000 anyway. of course I like as much velocity as possible, but only if it is accurate.
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
Sgt. Brumbaugh,
I'll be interested to see how Tom answers your specific question about the 240's and 210's (must be nice to have enough horsepower to have choices
) as he is much more qualified than I to comment. I am but a dabbler by comparison.
But for grins I ran some numbers on Hornady's new 225. With a BC of .670 and assuming you can drive it to 3200 fps I get 1.3 mil flatter to a mile (compared to the 240 SMK @ 3100 fps), 2.4 mil flatter to 2K, 4.5 mil flatter to 2.5k and SS another 250 yards further to 2350 yds.! Assuming you can drive the 210's to 3300, the advantage of the 225 is that it goes 200 yds further before going transonic (IF you believe Hornady's BC #'s) Everything else is a wash.
John
Sgt. Brumbaugh,
I'll be interested to see how Tom answers your specific question about the 240's and 210's (must be nice to have enough horsepower to have choices
But for grins I ran some numbers on Hornady's new 225. With a BC of .670 and assuming you can drive it to 3200 fps I get 1.3 mil flatter to a mile (compared to the 240 SMK @ 3100 fps), 2.4 mil flatter to 2K, 4.5 mil flatter to 2.5k and SS another 250 yards further to 2350 yds.! Assuming you can drive the 210's to 3300, the advantage of the 225 is that it goes 200 yds further before going transonic (IF you believe Hornady's BC #'s) Everything else is a wash.
John
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
Sgt.
If your getting 3100 fps out of the 240 SMK at it's grouping under 1 moa at 100 yards and there bouts at 200..then I would leave it alone. 3100 fps is awesome and VERY flat shooting. I would always pick the 240 over the 210 for EXTREME long range work.
I think each bullet has it's own accuracy nodes that the mfg. may have engineered into a published preferred velocity for the common everyday user.
Accuracy lives between 2900-3000 fps in MOST cases. Why? I believe that is the highest velocity most rifles/cartrigdes that are known for long range work can push those heavy weight bullets. Even the hot rod 6.5 mm stay around 2750-2950 right?
Then someone over bores them and gets that intended bullet going 100-300 fps faster and it either works or doesn't. But some do..and so is the case with the Berger 210's and 240 SMK's.
I think some shooters try and push certain bullets to a desired speed, PAST it's first accuracy node..but their rifle design or cartridge is not capable of pushing it over and beyond to the next accuracy node. So they simply say.."the bullet isn't very accurate past x-amount of fps.
Example for those who don't know or have not yet experienced this test.
This is a test I did some time ago as follows.
.300 Hulk
30" of 10 twist rifleing
81 grs. of H-1000
Berger 210 @ 3100 fps groups were in the mid .300 range at 100 and .450 at 200 yards. average
Then I bumped powder charge
82 grs. of H-1000
Same bullet now 3150 there bouts..no change in groups.
Bumped up powder again to 83 grs. and now fps 3200
groups now open a little more.
Again, add more powder..up to 84 grs now and fps is 3240 or so. Groups open more but still under 1 moa at 100 yards and about 1.5 moa at 200 yards
Now, I notice more recoil but still managable.
I then bump up to 85 grains and fps is 3275..guess what..SWEET spot starts to close the group back up at 200 yards to 1 moa.
Again, I add more powder..because I can..lol..now I'm up to 3300 fps plus with 86 grs. of H-1000.
The group closes down to the mid .200's at 200 yards..and ONE RAGGED HOLE at 100 yards..and thats with a suppressor.
Again, I went beyond the average node of 2900-3000 fps to a velocity of 300 FPS more than the average speed pushed.
I did the same with the 240 SMK and that's how I shot very small groups at 1000 yards and good scores. It was a long process to get there and lots of work and lots of bullets and powder and I learned a lot about me and my rifles limitations.
Even though I had a 1000 yard range in my own back yard it took me 5 years to learn how to do and put it all together including the bench mechanics. It's part of a whole process that has to be in unison while the barrel and load are at their peak.
Tactical shooters dont need this type of accuracy in the field nor can most or their gear get to that point. If your rifle is shooting .5 moa to .75 at 100 yards your good to go in MOST cases.
Of course you always want to get the best and most accuracy out of your system that's possible. Don't settle till you have exhausted every thing within your power and pocket book and you just might stumble on something really spectacular.
And, most importantly get with someone willing to help you that has a clue amd experience to help you reach your accuracy goals.
Sgt.
If your getting 3100 fps out of the 240 SMK at it's grouping under 1 moa at 100 yards and there bouts at 200..then I would leave it alone. 3100 fps is awesome and VERY flat shooting. I would always pick the 240 over the 210 for EXTREME long range work.
I think each bullet has it's own accuracy nodes that the mfg. may have engineered into a published preferred velocity for the common everyday user.
Accuracy lives between 2900-3000 fps in MOST cases. Why? I believe that is the highest velocity most rifles/cartrigdes that are known for long range work can push those heavy weight bullets. Even the hot rod 6.5 mm stay around 2750-2950 right?
Then someone over bores them and gets that intended bullet going 100-300 fps faster and it either works or doesn't. But some do..and so is the case with the Berger 210's and 240 SMK's.
I think some shooters try and push certain bullets to a desired speed, PAST it's first accuracy node..but their rifle design or cartridge is not capable of pushing it over and beyond to the next accuracy node. So they simply say.."the bullet isn't very accurate past x-amount of fps.
Example for those who don't know or have not yet experienced this test.
This is a test I did some time ago as follows.
.300 Hulk
30" of 10 twist rifleing
81 grs. of H-1000
Berger 210 @ 3100 fps groups were in the mid .300 range at 100 and .450 at 200 yards. average
Then I bumped powder charge
82 grs. of H-1000
Same bullet now 3150 there bouts..no change in groups.
Bumped up powder again to 83 grs. and now fps 3200
groups now open a little more.
Again, add more powder..up to 84 grs now and fps is 3240 or so. Groups open more but still under 1 moa at 100 yards and about 1.5 moa at 200 yards
Now, I notice more recoil but still managable.
I then bump up to 85 grains and fps is 3275..guess what..SWEET spot starts to close the group back up at 200 yards to 1 moa.
Again, I add more powder..because I can..lol..now I'm up to 3300 fps plus with 86 grs. of H-1000.
The group closes down to the mid .200's at 200 yards..and ONE RAGGED HOLE at 100 yards..and thats with a suppressor.
Again, I went beyond the average node of 2900-3000 fps to a velocity of 300 FPS more than the average speed pushed.
I did the same with the 240 SMK and that's how I shot very small groups at 1000 yards and good scores. It was a long process to get there and lots of work and lots of bullets and powder and I learned a lot about me and my rifles limitations.
Even though I had a 1000 yard range in my own back yard it took me 5 years to learn how to do and put it all together including the bench mechanics. It's part of a whole process that has to be in unison while the barrel and load are at their peak.
Tactical shooters dont need this type of accuracy in the field nor can most or their gear get to that point. If your rifle is shooting .5 moa to .75 at 100 yards your good to go in MOST cases.
Of course you always want to get the best and most accuracy out of your system that's possible. Don't settle till you have exhausted every thing within your power and pocket book and you just might stumble on something really spectacular.
And, most importantly get with someone willing to help you that has a clue amd experience to help you reach your accuracy goals.
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
Thanks Tom, I will get the 30-378 out of the corner and give it another shot, got a powder reccomendation for it? Anybody still using a 30-378 at the 1000 yard BR stuff? I know it held the record in the 80's shooting 250 SMK (if I remember right)10 shots in approx 4.25 in ?????
What is the 300 Hulk?
Thanks for the help.
Thanks Tom, I will get the 30-378 out of the corner and give it another shot, got a powder reccomendation for it? Anybody still using a 30-378 at the 1000 yard BR stuff? I know it held the record in the 80's shooting 250 SMK (if I remember right)10 shots in approx 4.25 in ?????
What is the 300 Hulk?
Thanks for the help.
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
The hulk is the super accurate round he designed. It makes me sick. LOL. I want a hulk very bad.
The hulk is the super accurate round he designed. It makes me sick. LOL. I want a hulk very bad.
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
Just cleaned out some PM's..sorry bout that.
The Hulk is a .338 LM case shortened and necked down to .30 cal.
with a custom body taper. I have a .338 neck reamer for BR and a .344 for tactical/hunting.
I originally designed it for 240 SMK's (in 2003)after using a Tooley designed .300 Yogi, which is a .338 LM full length case simply necked down to .30 cal with an imp. shoulder.
Shortly after the Hulk project was complete I started winning relays and matches more frequently and 4" groups at 1000 yards soon become it's reputation. It ultimatly broke two world records and countless other winning titles. It was smithed by Leonard Baity in NC.
I then made the decision to build a tactical .300 Hulk which was it's original intent from the start. I wanted to test it with all the accuracy requirments and demands that a true world class accurate long range BR rifle/cartridge needed to be in the winners circle. After several great performances I knew I was ready.
The Hulk was NOT and original idea. I wont take credit for that.
As I read about the .300 NM case I see the same wording and reasoning I designed the Hulk. Basically all you have to do is Google the .300 Hulk and you will see. 6mmBR.com has a good write up. It's in THOUSANDS of acticles and magazines all over the world after breaking the 1000 yard world records. Then a few years later..the .338 Norma mag comes out..then to add to it lets neck it down while we are at it. Which was the original intent I'm sure. The .300 Norma mag is very close to the Hulk specs. Just slightly shorter than the Hulk with a different body taper and shoulder. Which when is improved it's becomes a Hulk. The Norma head is differnent than Lapua also which requires a different case holder. Well thought out. Dave Kiff, which is a very good man and built the Hulk reamers for me had info me that over the years since the records were borke countless people have came to him for the Hulk reamer or close to it design. He helps protect it best he can. Why dont people just ask? We would be glad to help.
Besides, as I mentioned earlier I have the experience with the case design which goes clear back to the 1990's when the .300 Phoenix was developed by McMillan as a long range sniping round that would compare to a .338 LM. It was used by certain highly skilled individuals but had a short life due to it's over bore reputation as a .30 cal. so it never took off. Same reason our military is JUST now considering the .338 LM for Marines.
The .300 Norma mag has motivated us to go into production of the .300 Hulk consisting of quality brass and state of the art weapons systems. There are reasons why we didn't pursue this earlier but now it's time. We have built .300 Norma mags and they are great shooters so there is no issues there. So, now our customers have more choices..a .300 Hulk or a .300 NM. Doesnt matter to us, we are here to please.
Just cleaned out some PM's..sorry bout that.
The Hulk is a .338 LM case shortened and necked down to .30 cal.
with a custom body taper. I have a .338 neck reamer for BR and a .344 for tactical/hunting.
I originally designed it for 240 SMK's (in 2003)after using a Tooley designed .300 Yogi, which is a .338 LM full length case simply necked down to .30 cal with an imp. shoulder.
Shortly after the Hulk project was complete I started winning relays and matches more frequently and 4" groups at 1000 yards soon become it's reputation. It ultimatly broke two world records and countless other winning titles. It was smithed by Leonard Baity in NC.
I then made the decision to build a tactical .300 Hulk which was it's original intent from the start. I wanted to test it with all the accuracy requirments and demands that a true world class accurate long range BR rifle/cartridge needed to be in the winners circle. After several great performances I knew I was ready.
The Hulk was NOT and original idea. I wont take credit for that.
As I read about the .300 NM case I see the same wording and reasoning I designed the Hulk. Basically all you have to do is Google the .300 Hulk and you will see. 6mmBR.com has a good write up. It's in THOUSANDS of acticles and magazines all over the world after breaking the 1000 yard world records. Then a few years later..the .338 Norma mag comes out..then to add to it lets neck it down while we are at it. Which was the original intent I'm sure. The .300 Norma mag is very close to the Hulk specs. Just slightly shorter than the Hulk with a different body taper and shoulder. Which when is improved it's becomes a Hulk. The Norma head is differnent than Lapua also which requires a different case holder. Well thought out. Dave Kiff, which is a very good man and built the Hulk reamers for me had info me that over the years since the records were borke countless people have came to him for the Hulk reamer or close to it design. He helps protect it best he can. Why dont people just ask? We would be glad to help.
Besides, as I mentioned earlier I have the experience with the case design which goes clear back to the 1990's when the .300 Phoenix was developed by McMillan as a long range sniping round that would compare to a .338 LM. It was used by certain highly skilled individuals but had a short life due to it's over bore reputation as a .30 cal. so it never took off. Same reason our military is JUST now considering the .338 LM for Marines.
The .300 Norma mag has motivated us to go into production of the .300 Hulk consisting of quality brass and state of the art weapons systems. There are reasons why we didn't pursue this earlier but now it's time. We have built .300 Norma mags and they are great shooters so there is no issues there. So, now our customers have more choices..a .300 Hulk or a .300 NM. Doesnt matter to us, we are here to please.
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
Tom your .300 Hulk realy does sound like an amazing round, well more than sounding like a great round you have proved this also! I my self have never seen this round tho, just a dimensional drawing, if you could and/or would like to would you mind posting a picture of a loaded round?
Cheers
Tom your .300 Hulk realy does sound like an amazing round, well more than sounding like a great round you have proved this also! I my self have never seen this round tho, just a dimensional drawing, if you could and/or would like to would you mind posting a picture of a loaded round?
Cheers
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
I will gladly post a few pictures tomorrow after our training session. Just got a new computer and internet so I've been tinkering with some stuff.
I will gladly post a few pictures tomorrow after our training session. Just got a new computer and internet so I've been tinkering with some stuff.
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
Tom, when will a new schedule be availible for Thunder Vally? Any information on the requirements to train or compete there would be helpful also.
Tom, when will a new schedule be availible for Thunder Vally? Any information on the requirements to train or compete there would be helpful also.
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
Re25,
I have a meeting with our new website degigner this week.
All our info will be available there soon. Till then please e-mail or contact me by phone anytime. I would be glad to answer all the questions you may have.
We are currently working on our 2011 schedule and it will be posted asap.
In the next week or so I will have at least a couple months of our schedule available and I will post it here on the Hide.
January and Febuary may be a little slow but starting in March we shoot most every weekend till September with training days and practice through the week by appointment.
Thanks!
Re25,
I have a meeting with our new website degigner this week.
All our info will be available there soon. Till then please e-mail or contact me by phone anytime. I would be glad to answer all the questions you may have.
We are currently working on our 2011 schedule and it will be posted asap.
In the next week or so I will have at least a couple months of our schedule available and I will post it here on the Hide.
January and Febuary may be a little slow but starting in March we shoot most every weekend till September with training days and practice through the week by appointment.
Thanks!
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
Pictured here are the .300 Hulk (L) and the .338 Norma mag. (R)
for comparison. The Hulk is loaded with a Berger 210 VLD and the .338 NM is loaded with a 300 gr. SMK.
Notice the Hulk is already improved and the body taper for a reason.
A picture is worth a thousand words. I designed this case in 2003 after some experience with one of the original greats of the shortend and necked down versions of the .338 LM, the .300 Pheonix which I believe then became the .300 Lapua's version that's current used, if you can find it. It's amazing what a little mathematics can do when you start forming brass to a certain dimision. Hense the great accuracy of the PPC's. The Hulk IS the PPC of the .30 caliber magnums. The statistics prove it in more ways than one.
So we are clear, I'm in no way bashing the .338 or .300 Norma mags. because we do build them for our customers and they work great. But it's not the new kid on the block that everyone thinks it is. The Hulk has been around since 2003 and has paved the way for .338 NM existance and craze IMO after what certain folks saw what was possible. One of my main reasons for developing the cartridge is so it could be used in a short action single shot or be magazine fed in a long action, same as the .338 NM. Imagine that.
We are currently testing the life/longevity of the brass and accuracy of both. We already know were the Hulk fits in but just for fun were starting all over, that's what this game is all about...to never give up the pursuit of ultimate accuracy and efficiency...for distance.
Pictured here are the .300 Hulk (L) and the .338 Norma mag. (R)
for comparison. The Hulk is loaded with a Berger 210 VLD and the .338 NM is loaded with a 300 gr. SMK.
Notice the Hulk is already improved and the body taper for a reason.
A picture is worth a thousand words. I designed this case in 2003 after some experience with one of the original greats of the shortend and necked down versions of the .338 LM, the .300 Pheonix which I believe then became the .300 Lapua's version that's current used, if you can find it. It's amazing what a little mathematics can do when you start forming brass to a certain dimision. Hense the great accuracy of the PPC's. The Hulk IS the PPC of the .30 caliber magnums. The statistics prove it in more ways than one.
So we are clear, I'm in no way bashing the .338 or .300 Norma mags. because we do build them for our customers and they work great. But it's not the new kid on the block that everyone thinks it is. The Hulk has been around since 2003 and has paved the way for .338 NM existance and craze IMO after what certain folks saw what was possible. One of my main reasons for developing the cartridge is so it could be used in a short action single shot or be magazine fed in a long action, same as the .338 NM. Imagine that.
We are currently testing the life/longevity of the brass and accuracy of both. We already know were the Hulk fits in but just for fun were starting all over, that's what this game is all about...to never give up the pursuit of ultimate accuracy and efficiency...for distance.
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
Tom,
That is a mighty impressive stack of powder behind a 210!
Is the shoulder on the 300 Norma "improved" like the Hulk? I understand it is on the 300 Jazz. What are the differences between those three?
BTW... thanks for the pics... and the phone call. I left you a PM.
John
Tom,
That is a mighty impressive stack of powder behind a 210!
Is the shoulder on the 300 Norma "improved" like the Hulk? I understand it is on the 300 Jazz. What are the differences between those three?
BTW... thanks for the pics... and the phone call. I left you a PM.
John
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
Brett,
We will be demoing some rifles at our next shoot January 15th.
Come out if you can make it. I know for certain we will have a couple .300 win mags. shooting a mile. One is getting tricked out as we speak.
Brett,
We will be demoing some rifles at our next shoot January 15th.
Come out if you can make it. I know for certain we will have a couple .300 win mags. shooting a mile. One is getting tricked out as we speak.
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
Im not aware of a .300 NM improved yet, but if they do it would essentially would be a .300 Hulk. I'm going to start a new thread for I fear I may have caused us to stray slightly away from the original post and do not want hi-jack the mans thread.. Unless he is ok we keep going back and forth. My apologies if that is the case.
Im not aware of a .300 NM improved yet, but if they do it would essentially would be a .300 Hulk. I'm going to start a new thread for I fear I may have caused us to stray slightly away from the original post and do not want hi-jack the mans thread.. Unless he is ok we keep going back and forth. My apologies if that is the case.
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C.K</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yea, dave has designed a improved version it's a 300NM Rogue(37degree) or 30/338norma rogue. He designed it around a year ago. I have the reamers.
</div></div>
What's the market for dies on cartridges like these? Can you just call Redding with a drawing?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C.K</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yea, dave has designed a improved version it's a 300NM Rogue(37degree) or 30/338norma rogue. He designed it around a year ago. I have the reamers.
</div></div>
What's the market for dies on cartridges like these? Can you just call Redding with a drawing?
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
CK,
If your referring to Mr. Kiff you are coreect. We built a rifle with that same reamer design a year and half or so ago so we could neck down .338 NM brass to .30 cal before .300 NM brass was out. Customer didn't have time to form/make Hulk brass so we went that route. Heck, might have been longer than time flies! We have two versions of that reamer we disigned a .338 neck and a .344 tactical. Great choice.
Dave Kiff has always done us good and is a great man. He has always went above and beyond helping me and TVP. He has my business for life.
CK,
If your referring to Mr. Kiff you are coreect. We built a rifle with that same reamer design a year and half or so ago so we could neck down .338 NM brass to .30 cal before .300 NM brass was out. Customer didn't have time to form/make Hulk brass so we went that route. Heck, might have been longer than time flies! We have two versions of that reamer we disigned a .338 neck and a .344 tactical. Great choice.
Dave Kiff has always done us good and is a great man. He has always went above and beyond helping me and TVP. He has my business for life.
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
Goin' Hot,
When we build a rifle we custom make the dies for the most precision reloading you can achieve. Form dies, neck dies and IN LINE BULLET SEATING DIES are a must for long range precision. Our run out is zero...needles that twitch on a Juenke machine or concentricity gauge is the only way for world class groups and scores at long range. Which when is used in tactical rifles it really shows, especially on little bitty steel plates, as you well know my friend.
You can find dies out there however I would recommend going the custom route. Yes, they will be a little more money but remember your looking for extreme accuracy so dont cheat your handloading because it will show at the distance where it counts and I have a perfect example if anyone cares to hear it.
We have a new CNC laser engraver for our logo now..Karl!
Time to Tattoo that new rig of yours!
Goin' Hot,
When we build a rifle we custom make the dies for the most precision reloading you can achieve. Form dies, neck dies and IN LINE BULLET SEATING DIES are a must for long range precision. Our run out is zero...needles that twitch on a Juenke machine or concentricity gauge is the only way for world class groups and scores at long range. Which when is used in tactical rifles it really shows, especially on little bitty steel plates, as you well know my friend.
You can find dies out there however I would recommend going the custom route. Yes, they will be a little more money but remember your looking for extreme accuracy so dont cheat your handloading because it will show at the distance where it counts and I have a perfect example if anyone cares to hear it.
We have a new CNC laser engraver for our logo now..Karl!
Time to Tattoo that new rig of yours!
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
Hmmm, care to expand a little on what exactly an inline bullet seating die is, and how it is different.
Hmmm, care to expand a little on what exactly an inline bullet seating die is, and how it is different.
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
Sgt.
The inline bullet seating method is the most precise why you can seat a bullet into the case IF it is custom made by a good smith/machinist. It is a die body with a bullet seating stem that rises up as you slide the body die over the case alineing the bullet up perfectly straight to the axis of the flash hole (if everything else is true-- as in no run out). The bullet slides in the machined (perfect tolerance) hole where the bullet seating stem is placed, and then you press down with a arbor press. I will get a picture and demonstrate for those who are not aware of this method of seating bullets the most accurate way possible. After that I will explain all the varibles I know of to send a round downrange as accurately as poosible..and that is straight.
I'll be back.
Sgt.
The inline bullet seating method is the most precise why you can seat a bullet into the case IF it is custom made by a good smith/machinist. It is a die body with a bullet seating stem that rises up as you slide the body die over the case alineing the bullet up perfectly straight to the axis of the flash hole (if everything else is true-- as in no run out). The bullet slides in the machined (perfect tolerance) hole where the bullet seating stem is placed, and then you press down with a arbor press. I will get a picture and demonstrate for those who are not aware of this method of seating bullets the most accurate way possible. After that I will explain all the varibles I know of to send a round downrange as accurately as poosible..and that is straight.
I'll be back.
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tom Sarver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im not aware of a .300 NM improved yet, but if they do it would essentially would be a .300 Hulk. I'm going to start a new thread for I fear I may have caused us to stray slightly away from the original post and do not want hi-jack the mans thread.. Unless he is ok we keep going back and forth. My apologies if that is the case. </div></div>
Didn't offend me. There is a lot of great info here! I say keep it going.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tom Sarver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im not aware of a .300 NM improved yet, but if they do it would essentially would be a .300 Hulk. I'm going to start a new thread for I fear I may have caused us to stray slightly away from the original post and do not want hi-jack the mans thread.. Unless he is ok we keep going back and forth. My apologies if that is the case. </div></div>
Didn't offend me. There is a lot of great info here! I say keep it going.
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
He guys sorry I lost connection there for a few and had an issue with photo bucket. If it's ok with you I will start a new thread under reloading so as not to upset moderators for going off topic totally. I will title it "How to achieve accurate bullet flight" or something like that. hate to keep you waiting but I've been at it for 16 hours straight today. I will have all the info posted in mid a.m. If it wasn't for the photo bucket issue I would continue. Also I'm going to do some "how do post pics the easiest way" research in the morning. New computer and new photo share to learn too.
He guys sorry I lost connection there for a few and had an issue with photo bucket. If it's ok with you I will start a new thread under reloading so as not to upset moderators for going off topic totally. I will title it "How to achieve accurate bullet flight" or something like that. hate to keep you waiting but I've been at it for 16 hours straight today. I will have all the info posted in mid a.m. If it wasn't for the photo bucket issue I would continue. Also I'm going to do some "how do post pics the easiest way" research in the morning. New computer and new photo share to learn too.
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
Hey Tom... would the one getting tricked out be mine? Can't wait to shoot it suppressed. The .260's next. You made a believer out of me! Chuck
Hey Tom... would the one getting tricked out be mine? Can't wait to shoot it suppressed. The .260's next. You made a believer out of me! Chuck
Re: 30 cal 240SMK
The beauty of 300NM amd 338NM besides the incredible accuracy has also been great barrel life and excellent feeding from magazines to the extent they feed well in autoloaders ..How do these other calibers mentioned feed and how is the barrel life?
The beauty of 300NM amd 338NM besides the incredible accuracy has also been great barrel life and excellent feeding from magazines to the extent they feed well in autoloaders ..How do these other calibers mentioned feed and how is the barrel life?
