300 Norma Mag

Sowers64

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Has anyone been shooting 230 a tips in there 300NM?
I would like to hear of any luck with the 230 ATips. Been playing with Retumbo and N570. Chasing loads from 84 gr to 86.3. Seeing some promise but no ah ha loads so far?
 

Major Clayton

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+ 1... have been using ELD-X Match 225grs, but interested in trying the new A-Tips and would love to know what experience others have and any load data?
 

Sowers64

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I would like to hear of any luck with the 230 ATips. Been playing with Retumbo and N570. Chasing loads from 84 gr to 86.3. Seeing some promise but no ah ha loads so far?
I have been doing the same thing I finally settled on 86.3 Retumbo and about .024 setback. Am shooting sub 2” groups at 500yds. Had good luck w N570 also but was dirty and couldn’t get more at the time so went with Retumbo. Getting almost 3050 out of a 30” barrel an no pressure signs so far. I started with new Lapua brass and had poor luck but really improved after brass fireformed!!
 
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jwknutson17

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Anyone have the hornady or Berger load data with min and max data? Mainly looking for H1k and retumbo.

Trying to see where I'm at. New barrel in AXMC. 84gr of H1k and 215s and see all kinds of pressure. Ejector mark, extractor swipe, hard bolt, creator primer. Barrel was new. Clean before shooting. 2 rounds. Clean. Shot 3 more clean. Only had 5 rounds of this as it was my barrel breakin load so I thought. Quick loaded up 84gr of retumbo after and 100fps slower, and absolutely zero pressure signs. From others in this thread with 215s it seems most are running 85-87gr of H1k without any pressure. Maybe I have a HOT lot. And ive seen a few post also of a 87gr of retumbo load and the 215s. Which may seem more in line as I had zero pressure with the 84 of retumbo. Maybe I need to try another one of my lots of H1k? New Peterson brass. COAL at 3.600. 10 off the lands roughly.

I have another new AXMC Norma barrel here I'll try tomorrow from Mile High and see what that is like. Both are newer profile bought from EO and Mile High last week.

Just looking for some published data to go off of here.

Thanks!
 
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jmackey

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Anyone have the hornady or Berger load data with min and max data? Mainly looking for H1k and retumbo.

Trying to see where I'm at. New barrel in AXMC. 84gr of H1k and 215s and see all kinds of pressure. Ejector mark, extractor swipe, hard bolt, creator primer.
I had a similar experience with my EO 300 Norma barrel. Lots of signs before you’d expect them. I use H1000 for other cartridges, so my current lot isn’t hot. I ended up at 80.5gr H1000 with a 220 scenar. 2800fps is dismal performance for this cartridge, but the sd is 4 and groups are tight. I wonder if there is something up with a batch of these, purchased this one Dec 2018. It has about 150 rounds down it.
 

jwknutson17

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I had a similar experience with my EO 300 Norma barrel. Lots of signs before you’d expect them. I use H1000 for other cartridges, so my current lot isn’t hot. I ended up at 80.5gr H1000 with a 220 scenar. 2800fps is dismal performance for this cartridge, but the sd is 4 and groups are tight. I wonder if there is something up with a batch of these, purchased this one Dec 2018. It has about 150 rounds down it.
Thanks for the info. I'm going to play with it a bit and switch up lots of H1k just to check and also get my other barrel on there first before I worry too much.
 

264win

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Anyone have the hornady or Berger load data with min and max data? Mainly looking for H1k and retumbo.

Trying to see where I'm at. New barrel in AXMC. 84gr of H1k and 215s and see all kinds of pressure. Ejector mark, extractor swipe, hard bolt, creator primer. Barrel was new. Clean before shooting. 2 rounds. Clean. Shot 3 more clean. Only had 5 rounds of this as it was my barrel breakin load so I thought. Quick loaded up 84gr of retumbo after and 100fps slower, and absolutely zero pressure signs. From others in this thread with 215s it seems most are running 85-87gr of H1k without any pressure. Maybe I have a HOT lot. And ive seen a few post also of a 87gr of retumbo load and the 215s. Which may seem more in line as I had zero pressure with the 84 of retumbo. Maybe I need to try another one of my lots of H1k? New Peterson brass. COAL at 3.600. 10 off the lands roughly.

I have another new AXMC Norma barrel here I'll try tomorrow and see what that is like. Both are newer profile bought from EO and Mile High last week.

Just looking for some published data to go off of here.

Thanks!
It might be worth while to get a box of factory ammo and see how it performs.
 

jwknutson17

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It might be worth while to get a box of factory ammo and see how it performs.
Yea I'll go down that road if I see similar issues with this other barrel I'll spin on this afternoon. I did call Berger this am and they gave me this info. Said they arent publishing it, but what they have they can tell me over the phone.

Their Test rifle.. 300 Norma 26" barrel. COAL 3.680

215s H1k
Min 83.0 - 2787fps
Max 87.4 - 2933fps

215s rerumbo
Min 86.5 - 2823
Max 91.3 - 2973

230s H1k
Min 81.0 - 2697fps
Max 85.4 - 2838fps

230s retumbo
Min 84.5 - 2735 fps
Max 89.1 - 2874 fps


Velocities seem low as I can get these numbers with my PRC without issue. So taking that data with a grain of salt also.


Called Hornady and guy said they dont have any data to publish and no plans to. Said to call Hodgen. So I sent them an email requesting data.


I'm not going to get too worked up about it yet as I have a lot of things to test out and different powder lots, barrel, etc. If I have continued pressure issues I'll investigate further. Just wanted to see what others are using and some published data. That picture of the Berger sheet I thought was bad data from what people were saying previously?

Just didnt think I would run into pressure right out of the gate with 84gr of H1k and the 215s. Surprised me, that's all.
 

jwknutson17

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Some interesting results today. H1k showed pressure at 82 grains even. In two AXMC barrels. Even switched lots to verify. Switched to retumbo and got way more velocity before seeing any pressure at 87 grains. With 215 bergers. Not sure who is using more then 84gr of H1k and 215s but I would advise against it from the testing I just did in these two barrels.

27 inch AI barrel. New besides today's rounds. Break in with 2. Clean. 3 clean. And then..

Retumbo with 215s
84gr 2924
85gr 2984
86gr 3005
87gr 3047 slight cratering of primer.

H1k. With 215s
3 rounds of 82gr. 2900 average.




20 inch AI barrel..H1k with 215s Issues with this one mainly

82gr 2677 Cratering primer. Ejector and extractor marks.
 
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WeiserBucks

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Some interesting results today. H1k showed pressure at 82 grains even. In two AXMC barrels. Even switched lots to verify. Switched to retumbo and got way more velocity before seeing any pressure at 87 grains. With 215 bergers. Not sure who is using more then 84gr of H1k and 215s but I would advise against it from the testing I just did in these two barrels.

27 inch AI barrel. New besides today's rounds. Break in with 2. Clean. 3 clean. And then..

Retumbo
84gr 2924
85gr 2984
86gr 3005
87gr 3047 slight cratering of primer.

H1k.
3 rounds of 82gr. 2900 average. Cratering primer. Ejector and extractor marks.




20 inch AI barrel..H1k

82gr 2677 Cratering primer. Ejector and extractor marks.

Retumbo and 20" barrel
86gr 2814 fps
87gr 2821 fps slight cratered primer but not flattened
88gr 2827 fps slight crater and very light ejector mark.
If you have enough Retumbo it's going to be tough to beat , unless you can get your hands on some N570.
 

jwknutson17

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If you have enough Retumbo it's going to be tough to beat , unless you can get your hands on some N570.
I have 24 lbs now but it's being shared with the Cheytac. And that eats retumbo like crazy. But seems like I'll be ok for a while. One day if I can find the N570 I'll give it a go. Thanks!
 
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SAPenguin

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Using some new Peterson here.. My loaded ammo is .3410-.3415 so I am using a .339 bushing for 2 thou roughly of neck tension.
Be careful when using the fired brass again, as it will show pressure sooner than your recent ladder test. (Cases now fully fireformed/ expanded) Also, as you found the AXMC cannot run higher pressure loads as the clearance between firing pin and channel is large. My experience mirrors yours.
 

jwknutson17

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Are your axmc bolts bushed?
No. The 338 bolt and 300 win bolts are just as they came from AI. I have a SFP complete bolt assy for when I grab a short action barrel. Was trying to not go down the road of having to bush anything with getting the complete SFP bolt assy for the SA stuff.
 

jwknutson17

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Is this something that AI/Mile High is taking care of on the AXMC for the excessive clearence on the firing pin hole? They bushing them, or sending to LRI? Customer pay? warranty? Havent even opened up my Mag bolt body out of the package yet as the PRC barrel doesnt show up from Tooley until Saturday.
 
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Huskydriver

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Is this something that AI/Mile High is taking care of on the AXMC for the excessive clearence on the firing pin hole? They bushing them, or sending to LRI? Customer pay? warranty?
No, no , and no
...I had my bolts bushed and two LFP turned down. The turned lfp pins work in my sfp bolt assembly.


I will check my notes later but I experienced I believe similar results with my factory axmc. I couldn't get within 150fps of everyone else's load data with 300 Norma. Now that my bolts are bushed I can push pills up there within the range most people are with 0 pressure signs.
 

jwknutson17

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No, no , and no
...I had my bolts bushed and two LFP turned down. The turned lfp pins work in my sfp bolt assembly.


I will check my notes later but I experienced I believe similar results with my factory axmc. I couldn't get within 150fps of everyone else's load data with 300 Norma. Now that my bolts are bushed I can push pills up there within the range most people are with 0 pressure signs.
Sounds good. Let me know what you find.

For my SFP bolt assy, it comes with the firing pin, shroud, safety as a complete ready to drop in complete bolt. I would only be swapping the large firing pin assembly between the Lapua and Magnum bolt bodies.

I didnt think it was ideal to use a SFP on the mag/lapua ones even if they are bushed?? Maybe its just turned down slightly to true it up and the hole is bushed and fit properly? Havent had anything bushed before. May just call Adam at Mile High or Chad at LRI.
 
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Huskydriver

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Sounds good. Let me know what you find.

For my SFP bolt assy, it comes with the firing pin, shroud, safety as a complete ready to drop in complete bolt. I would only be swapping the large firing pin assembly between the Lapua and Magnum bolt bodies.

I didnt think you wanted to use a SFP on the mag/lapua ones. Maybe its just turned down slightly to true it up and the hole is bushed and fit properly? Havent had anything bushed before. May just call Adam at Mile High or Chad at LRI.
When they bush the bolt, they also turn down the fp to match the hole in the bolt face. The factory sfp firing pin will not work in factory lfp bolts however, LRI was able to turn down my factory LFP so that if needed they could be used in my factory sfp bolt body if that makes sense.

@LongRifles Inc. Did both mine in less than a week.
 

jwknutson17

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When they bush the bolt, they also turn down the fp to match the hole in the bolt face. The factory sfp firing pin will not work in factory lfp bolts however, LRI was able to turn down my factory LFP so that if needed they could be used in my factory sfp bolt body if that makes sense.

@LongRifles Inc. Did both mine in less than a week.
Yea I know you cant use a SFP in a mag bolt body and vise versa. Just not sure what the specs are exactly. I know Machtech just had his done from LRI but not sure the exact details.

But in reality we shouldn't have to be bushing brand new AXMC bolts... especially if it's a common theme you think it would be addressed before sending them out.
 

bjay

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Yea I know you cant use a SFP in a mag bolt body and vise versa. Just not sure what the specs are exactly. I know Machtech just had his done from LRI but not sure the exact details.

But in reality we shouldn't have to be bushing brand new AXMC bolts... especially if it's a common theme you think it would be addressed before sending them out.
What do you mean you cant use small firing pin on magnum?
For lapua size magnum or any magnum.im using sfp on my 7 max which is basically 7 saum AI no issues
 

jwknutson17

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What do you mean you cant use small firing pin on magnum?
For lapua size magnum or any magnum.im using sfp on my 7 max which is basically 7 saum AI no issues
Your tossing a small firing pin in a mag bolt body that's not bushed for it??? Guess I should have worded it a little better, that you shouldn't toss a SFP in a Mag bolt body unless you have it bushed at the same time.

Why are we having to do this to 7000+ dollar rifles is a better question..


Not to keep derailing this thread but I'll just call Adam or Chad and call it a day.
 
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bjay

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Your tossing a small firing pin in a mag bolt body that's not bushed for it??? Guess I should have worded it a little better, that you shouldn't toss a SFP in a Mag bolt body unless you have it bushed at the same time.

Why are we having to do this to 7000+ dollar rifles is a better question..


Not to keep derailing this thread but I'll just call Adam or Chad and call it a day.
Ohhh i missed read it..yup my bolt face is set for sfp
 
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SAPenguin

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Your tossing a small firing pin in a mag bolt body that's not bushed for it??? Guess I should have worded it a little better, that you shouldn't toss a SFP in a Mag bolt body unless you have it bushed at the same time.

Why are we having to do this to 7000+ dollar rifles is a better question..


Not to keep derailing this thread but I'll just call Adam or Chad and call it a day.
The clearance between pin and channel is intentional and was designed that way to allow fail proof function even with dust/debris in the action.
 
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Rebelirons

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I may have missed something but, why is it that Berger is the only company with any sort of tested load data for the 300 NM? I know it’s sorta new but it’s not that new. Is there an actual reason as to why, that anyone knows?
 

cutarm

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I may have missed something but, why is it that Berger is the only company with any sort of tested load data for the 300 NM? I know it’s sorta new but it’s not that new. Is there an actual reason as to why, that anyone knows?
VV has 300NM load data.
You are right though.
 

bhanley

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anyone figured out what berger uses in their 230 load? it shoots fantastic but id like to reload now that i have 200 pcs of brass accumulated
 

Djfergus

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I pulled & weighed a charge. It was either 84 or 84.5 grains. I can't remember cause it's been a while. I've been told it was h1000 but I personally believe it's retumbo.
 

bjay

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I pulled & weighed a charge. It was either 84 or 84.5 grains. I can't remember cause it's been a while. I've been told it was h1000 but I personally believe it's retumbo.
For standard 300nm 230 with 84.5 id say bit hot if its h1000 retumbo makes more sense
 

Tchitcherine

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The Berger page that @Yerman posted (above) shows 85.4gr max load for the 230 with H1000 in some 26" barrel and unknown brass. Elsewhere it was mentioned (possibly earlier in this thread) that the data on that page, or possibly just that max H1000 load, is considered hot. I understand individual rifles vary so work up, but are the N570 and Retumbo loads on that sheet also typically hot?
 

jonthomps

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DO NOT use the Berger load data posted above (post #507). It's way too hot! I have no idea what they were smoking when they put this info out. I shoot a 300NM IMP built by Ryan Pearce. My load is 91gr N570 with a 215 which gives me 3160fps from a 26" Proof CF 9-twist barrel. ABM is using H1000 for their factory 300NM ammo.
 
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Yerman

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I looked through the entire 11 pages of this thread and I couldn't find it so here goes..

My Berger book does not have the page listed above. Can someone please post the 215 Grn page?

Thanks
I found that on the internet somewhere a while ago. Sorry, I don’t have the book either.
 

generalzip

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Either 335 or 336
For lapua brass
I found my hornady .335 bushing to not give enough neck tension at all. I switched to a .333 and it’s better at 3-3.5 thou neck tension. Berger 230 and lapua cases 1x fired
 
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Drano

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Interesting thread.

With respect to increased pressure signs/speed with 300 NM in the AI AXMC (PSR)-- commensurate with increased barrel life, I am aware under normal circumstances a barrel will typically speed up after 50-200 rds. However, with pressure signs/pierced primers occurring with either factory ammo or re-loads (after the initial 50-200 rds), where it did not initially occur --- is interesting.

Assuming all avenues of cleaning/inspection/investigation to isolate the different factors were completed. It can be frustrating.
As it was for me.

The following is my humble opinion.

Although I have not changed the Large Fire Pin(LFP) and everything is still factory spec from AI, I agree with the modification to a Small Firing Pin(SFP) and bushed bolt can make a difference to alleviate the pressure issues. With this methodology, if I go down this route, I will probably buy an entire bolt body(either bushed or with SFP hole) and an entire small firing pin assembly. Although not the cheapest way to do this, I would like to keep the factory spec AI bolt for experimentation. Also, the factory clearance between the LFP and bolt channel is spec'ed for a battle rifle. With many custom rifles/actions built with 300 NM, you will see 215 and 230 Bergers pushed to their max speed/potential.

I have shot 338 Lapua Magnum (13 different factory loads and re-loads) with this same rifle/action (AXMC) with no issues.

Personally, I really like the 300 NM, and believe it is an awesome cartridge. However, from my humble experience, the 300 NM (in the AXMC) needs to be fined tuned like a dragster. As barrel life progresses, the "load" needs to updated/tweaked to maintain peak performance . I have also fired 338 Norma Magnum through the same rifle/action and found it to be more forgiving with minimal pressure issues. A good analogy would be the 6.5 Creedmoor vs. 6 Creedmoor. The faster & smaller caliber is a "higher maintenance" cartridge.

Brass is the other issue. Obviously, all is not created equal. I did do a comparison with Norma brass and Lapua brass for 300 NM for 215, 220, 230 Bergers (yes, the new 220 Berger Long Range Target Hybrid):
1) Lapua brass exhibited less pressure issues;
2) Lapua brass exhibited increased velocities by 29-36 fps;
3) Lapua brass exhibited slightly less bolt lift;

Please remember I am referencing the AI AXMC (PSR) as the rifle platform.
My goal was to make 300 NM work (no pressure issues) in the factory spec rifle. Also, I did not try to max out the velocity due to pressure issues or poor node. I wanted to find the most accurate load/node for the rifle.

The following are the loads/results with Norma brass (for Lapua brass, just add 29-36 fps):
26" AI barrel, 1:10, 300 NM-----Jumped between 0.025-0.030.

215 Berger with Norma 217--85.0g
Avg: 2996, SD 8.7

220 Berger with Norma 217--84.5g
Avg: 2974, SD 6.9

230 Berger with Norma 217--84.0g
Avg: 2923, SD 4.8

The above results were unsuppressed. I did do a follow-up with two different suppressors with no issues.

Also, it was mentioned above that there is no official reloading data for 300 NM.
This is incorrect.
NORMA does produce an excellent reloading book. However, the only powders published in their book are Norma powders. On pages 326-328 is the information for 300 NM:
215 Berger------Norma 217 powder----min 83.8 (2828 fps), max 88.1 (3012 fps); Norma MRP powder----min 76.8 (2871 fps), max 80.9 (2988 fps)
230 Berger------Norma 217 powder----min 82.7 (2789 fps), max 87.0 (2940 fps)

I am sure with the new AI ASR kit and the AI AXSR rifles being released, this issue will be resolved with the SFP and updated action/platform for the Norma Magnum family.

In summary, with the AI AXMC (PSR) the following can help alleviate the 300 NM pressure issues with barrel life:
1) Change brass/load--recommend Lapua brass
2) Change to SFP
3) _____________ (fill in the blank for people smarter than me--which is easy)

Again, my humble opinion.... hope this helps.
 
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generalzip

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I gave up on a tips. Going out tomorrow to try 91.2 grains re33 under a 230 hybrid in lapua brass. The reamer I had used must have been worn out as the bullet tends to lightly drag in the throat. Hopefully over another 100 rounds or so this problem goes away as the barrel wears more
 

shoot4fun

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I may have missed something but, why is it that Berger is the only company with any sort of tested load data for the 300 NM? I know it’s sorta new but it’s not that new. Is there an actual reason as to why, that anyone knows?
I found it in Sierra Reloading Manual VI. Just picked up a 300NM 35˚ Improved. Have dies and plenty of 215 Hybrids. Absolutely not enough Retumbo even though I have about ten pounds (I shoot 300WM and 6.5PRC too). The rifle came with ten boxes of Berger factory ammo loaded with 215 Hybrids so I'll burn some of that first. Looking forward to attacking some steel out to 2,000 yards.
 

ThisGuy

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Here is my load up. I am running the 230 SMK and Lapua brass. My brass is on the second firing. They were annealed after the first firing. I have a 30" Bartlien Barrel 8T. Dave Manson Reamer.

86.6 gr N217 @ 3105 fps
Fed Match Mag Primer
.015" off lands

As of the last speed check yesterday it was 3105fps with 200 rounds on the barrel. That jumped up from 3090fps 25 rounds ago when I shot at a 1 mile target. I did not run my Labradar during the shoot, so I do not know when it jumped exactly. I started off at 3030fps at 50 rounds on the barrel. The SD has stayed 6-7.
 
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