300 yards shooting is all over the place.

[Long Range]

I'm shooting out to 300 yards and it seems that some of my shots hit close to center, some don't hit the target at all. Some shots are 5 inches from each other, some 10 inches or more.

Basically my shots are all over the place but some do hit close to center.

What is the best way to trouble shoot this? I retorqued and check scope tightness, so I don't think that is the problem.

I'm not a very good shooter and just started but I think I'm holding the cross hairs in the center of the target. Should I shoot at less of a range?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Donr13]

What kind of gun? what cartridge? what ammo are you using?

are you shooting off a bench with support? prone?

 

[Long Range]

What kind of gun? what cartridge? what ammo are you using?

are you shooting off a bench with support? prone?

I didn't want to add these things because from my knowledge other people are able to hit coke cans with the gun at 300 yards. That being said, I figured I should at least get 10" groups 100% of the time.

I'm using a scar 17s, 308, with vortex viper scope, laying in prone position. I thought maybe the wind was the problem but today had almost no wind.

I'm not using match ammo, but I figure at 300 yards that would only make an inch or so difference. Some of my shots don't even hit on a 16" target.

Could 308 non-match ammo cause 10" or higher groups at 300 yards?

 

[-R-]

Could be crappy ammo, otherwise you said yourself that you are not a very good shooter. Fundamentals are key, when you start getting out to longer ranges those deficiencies and inconsistencies multiply themselves. Shoot some groups at 100 yards and go from there.

 

[Donr13]

My friend was having the same grouping issues with his rem700 and we changed his ammo and it stared grouping nicely.

Each barrel twist is going to have ammo that performs differently. Maybe see what ammo other guys running the scar are shooting.

I would guess that could be a big part of it along with not being the greatest shooter as you said.

 

[shovelstrokeed]

First things first. Stop shooting crappy ammo. I know it costs more but consistency is the key to shooting and inconsistent ammo is not going to get it for you. My REPR is a 1.5 moa gun at 100 with battle pack ammo and shoots under .75 with 168g FGMM.

Next, you are going to have to fix yourself. This can be very hard to do without a knowledgeable coach and even harder with a bad coach.
1. Does the rifle fit you?
2. Is the scope properly mounted so that eye relief is correct?
3. Are you relaxed in your shooting position or muscling the gun to point of aim?
4. Is your trigger pull smooth and straight back with your trigger finger not touching any part of the gun?
5. Are you flinching, anticipating recoil, or tensing just before the shot breaks?
6. What about controlling your breathing?

There is much more to this but those are some of the basics.

I'm still learning and have learned a lot. I still have a long, long way to go. On any given day, I choose to work on one thing at a time without forgetting the other stuff, just more focus on one single factor. My local range is 90 minutes away and I still work full time so it is taking me awhile to get to semi-consistent. All the things I mentioned above can be worked on at home though.

 

[VoxPatriam]

Are you focusing your eye on the target or the reticle?

 

[Sterling Shooter]

I'm shooting out to 300 yards and it seems that some of my shots hit close to center, some don't hit the target at all. Some shots are 5 inches from each other, some 10 inches or more.

Basically my shots are all over the place but some do hit close to center.

What is the best way to trouble shoot this? I retorqued and check scope tightness, so I don't think that is the problem.

I'm not a very good shooter and just started but I think I'm holding the cross hairs in the center of the target. Should I shoot at less of a range?

Thanks in advance.

You don't have the knowledge to troubleshoot; but, you do not need to. Different sizes and shapes of groups can be caused by a multitude of problems/errors making it impossible to discern all causes of misplaced shots. Yet, because all shooter errors originate from inconsistency and incorrect compensation for effects on trajectory, i.e. wind and weather, not hitting where aimed can be quickly resolved without troubleshooting by concentrating on what needs to be properly accomplished, i.e. sight alignment, and trigger control.

I see what you describe everyday. A shooter gets good results at 100 yards. He thinks he knows how to do it, then, things fall apart at 300 yards. What's happening is at 300 yards the miniscule angular errors the shooter is making for not having consistent control over the rifle are unmasked. In addition to not knowing how to build a steady position, the shooter does not know how to pull the trigger, counter for wind and weather conditions, or even get a consistent perspective of aim.

The one good thing about all of this is the shooter may, from this eye opening experience, come to understand he does not know anything about good shooting. He may even discover that without some basic marksmanship training the match trigger, bipod, big ass scope, match ammunition and match grade rifle only serve as substitutes for marksmanship at a very short distance. Still, there are some who will not get it. These folks will imagine the rifle is broken or the ammunition is defective; and, being fixated on the equipment, they will pursue equipment upgrades rather than marksmanship, since, to them, equipment is synonymous with marksmanship.

Get some marksmanship training. Sign up for the rifle phase of the USAMU's Small Arms Firing School July 15 through 17 at Camp Perry. This will get you off to a great start. From such training you will become aware of what's important to good shooting. You will also learn how to call your shots and, whether shots go on call or not, what the call means about shot misplacement.

One more thing, your rifle, if not broken, and ammunition, if not defective, are not thwarting results. You can learn everything there is to know about good shooting from such a rifle and ammunition. There is no doubt that match grade can get better results but even with rack grade the bullet always goes in the direction the barrel is pointed. This means the bullet holes on the target indicate where the barrel was pointed. Therefore, if shots did not go where aimed it is because you either did not know where the barrel was pointed or you did not maintain aim. The bottom line is you don't need to change your rifle or ammunition, just learn how to properly point the rifle with consistent sight alignment and pull the trigger without moving the rifle utilizing SMOOTH trigger control.

 

[agbm]

Sight picture, Trigger control, Quality ammo,Etc.
Are you being beat up by the recoil? I have shot a 308 scar and I felt I was getting pounded by the recoil. If I was going to shot a Scar I would replace the trigger and change out that muzzle brake. Also I would change out the stock to a Magpul PRS stock and add a limbsaver recoil pad. My rem 700 in 308 I can shoot all day with out any fatigue(500 rounds or so. I feel with minor changes to a scar 17 I would be able to do the same about 500 round or so. Options below: trigger, muzzle brake, stock, recoil pad. I know you feel you should be shooting better but you may need to make some modifications. Below are the mod's I would change, because the SCAR 17 is still down the road for me one day!!! Also practice and remember you will have to learn how to shoot while controlling the effects off the recoil going backwards and then forward, 5.56 no problem but 308 can be like a roller coaster ride.
Geissele Automatics | Quality Triggers for the Warfighter and Competitor
JP - Recoil Eliminators
SCAR ENHANCEMENTS by HDD TACTICAL - hi-desertdog.com - (Powered by CubeCart)
http://hi-desertdog.com/images/cache/L1A1 FAL/scar_ssr_stock_spec_ops_fde.270.jpg
M/P (Magpul/Pachmayr) Adapter and Recoil Pad Combo
LimbSaver - Products That Work | Archery | Firearms | Hunting Compound Bows | Limb Dampeners | Bow Stabilizers | Recoil Pads | Arrow Quivers | LimbSaver makes high quality products for the archery, firearm and hunting enthusiast.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Some have offered advice which does not address the cause and effect relationships which are undermining the results. Instead, you are being given remedies (substitutes for marksmanship) to treat the symptoms of poor marksmanship. These treatments only mask the problem, they do not get rid of it. For example, a light trigger will get a better result but does not correct the problem which is not knowing how to properly pull the trigger without disturbing aim. Don't change anything about your rifle. It is a magnificent concept. It has great ergonomics and can be shot well by any having some basic marksmanship knowledge. You just need to learn how to shoot.

 

[psycosteve]

I didn't want to add these things because from my knowledge other people are able to hit coke cans with the gun at 300 yards. That being said, I figured I should at least get 10" groups 100% of the time.

I'm using a scar 17s, 308, with vortex viper scope, laying in prone position. I thought maybe the wind was the problem but today had almost no wind.

I'm not using match ammo, but I figure at 300 yards that would only make an inch or so difference. Some of my shots don't even hit on a 16" target.

Could 308 non-match ammo cause 10" or higher groups at 300 yards?

Not to sound like a know it all but you first need to realize the intention of the weapon you have to fully utilize its potential. The SCAR H is a highly accurate rifle for what it is and that is a battle rifle. Consistency is the basis of accuracy and by your own admission you are not shooting consistently due to what I would perceive as poor fundamentals, attempting to use a battle rifle for precision shooting and using cheap ammo that is inconsistent. If you have access to a good 22LR with an aperture site on it I would highly recommend an Appleseed course or just a basic rifle course to get your fundamentals down. With out seeing your targets and how your firing the rifle it is going to be hard to say that you are jerking the trigger or your not supporting the weapon right. I know I got my flaws when it comes to shooting and I need to work on my fundamentals, as my first pistol instructor told me that the higher levels of shooting just require an advanced understanding of the basics. I have applied this to all of my shooting and it has helped me .

 

[Graham]

OP,

With what you posted there's no way to tell what is going on.

Move to 100 yards. That will test the rifle more than the shooter as compared to 300.

 

[Ken6881]

I agree with graham move in close work your way out.
Also it could be the ammo my rem 700 went from 3-5 inch groups to .5" at 100 by changing ammo


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Long Range]

I do agree that it is probably mostly my bad marksmanship, I have no doubt about that.

However, I will retry at 100 yards and work my way out.

Can someone tell me roughly if I get say 2" groups at 100 yards, what that will equate to at 300 yards?

I also have the option to break out my Remington 700 5r which I only used once. I just have to move the scope and bipod over. Plus I have 168 and 175 match ammo.

 

[shovelstrokeed]

I think with that rifle you should stay at 100 yds until you are shooting sub 1" groups at 100 yds.
Master the fundamentals there first. Get yourself a true zero and then worry about groups.
Pick one rifle at a time and master that.

I play with my other rifles, including my LWRC REPR and my KAC SR-15 but neither is really set up for shooting groups. The REPR more so than the Knights, but they are combat rifles and I more or less just play with them to keep my hand in.
When I try to get serious, out comes my AI-AX chassis, 6.5 CM with a Pierce action and a 24" Rock Creek bbl that will happily shoot 5/8-3/4" groups at 100. Local range only goes to 200 and I'm getting there now after owning the rifle for 6 months. I'm confined to the bench as bad knees and a bum shoulder preclude position shooting. Hiking out to 200 and back to check targets is no fun either at 71 years of age. Actually, the gun is capable of .25 accuracy, just the shooter can't drive it there yet. I'm only up to a 400 count with the gun so far.

Hang in there and get some rounds down range with your gun, whichever you pick. Do look around for a coach. You probably can find one at your local range. Offers to pay entry fees or ammo might help. BTW, there are some excellent videos available on this site at very reasonable prices. Use them. Both Graham and Sterling Shooter have a wealth of experience that they are happy to share. I learned a whole bunch from both although it took me a little time to translate Sterling's posts into language I understand. Just kidding, Sterling.

 

[Long Range]

I agree I am going to reduce my shots to 100 yards. It will be easier also to check my targets until I am consistent at that point.

I have been watching some youtube videos on how to shoot properly and I am really doing nothing correct. I am going to try and work on these things.

 

[Donr13]

its also worth asking if you were doing any kind of corrections on the scope at 300 or if you were just holding center mass?

 

[Sterling Shooter]

its also worth asking if you were doing any kind of corrections on the scope at 300 or if you were just holding center mass?

The OP should record every shot in a data book. For slow fire he should plot both call and shot. This will allow refinement of zeros for conditions, notice of trends, and to build confidence. If any one is interested I can post on how to use the data book.

 

[sib1948]

If you want to do precision shooting, take your rem 700 5R out with some match ammo and go to work. ARs are meant to be a minute of man weapon (although some can do much better with lots of practice). My ARs are all scoped with ACOGs or EoTech with 3X magnifiers. It is what it is. Stick with the purpose the weapons are designed for and you'll be a lot happier.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

If you want to do precision shooting, take your rem 700 5R out with some match ammo and go to work. ARs are meant to be a minute of man weapon (although some can do much better with lots of practice). My ARs are all scoped with ACOGs or EoTech with 3X magnifiers. It is what it is. Stick with the purpose the weapons are designed for and you'll be a lot happier.

Marksmanship begins with this fact: the bullet always goes in the direction the barrel is pointed. Couple this with the fact that all shooting is the same: properly point the rifle with consistent sight alignment and pull the trigger without moving the rifle utilizing smooth trigger control and you will realize that it does not matter what rifle and ammunition is brought to the firing line. Any will serve to learn what's important to good shooting. Ironically, what some may think will serve better are concepts which may actually undermine learning how to shoot. The OP's bolt gun is an example of such. When fitted with a bipod and scope there is no doubt great results are possible at SR, making the shooter perceive he knows how to do it when the reality is the shooter may not be learning anything about good shooting. This is because the rifle as described has features which can serve as substitutes for marksmanship at SR. I discussed this earlier in this thread. On the other hand, shooting the SCAR with as issued irons at SR will easily reveal shooter error; and thus, such errors can be corrected, promoting development of good marksmanship from the start. What is important is to learn how to shoot what ever it is you are shooting with or from.

One more thing, yes, no matter what the skill, a shooter can see better what his rifle will do at SR, which can help build confidence in his equipment; but, what can not be seen at SR is the effect of shooter error from inconsistency and not adjusting the sights correctly for the effects of gravity, drag, wind and weather conditions. Sometimes a novice shooter can produce errors in one or both of these arenas which makes it important to eventually shoot at distance and call the shot to discern whether the error originated with a consistency issue or a sight adjustment issue. The bottom line is practice at distance and keep a data book if you want to get good hits to the maximum effective distance your bullet can get to nose-on.

 

[Night Eagle]

I do agree that it is probably mostly my bad marksmanship, I have no doubt about that.

However, I will retry at 100 yards and work my way out.

Can someone tell me roughly if I get say 2" groups at 100 yards, what that will equate to at 300 yards?

I also have the option to break out my Remington 700 5r which I only used once. I just have to move the scope and bipod over. Plus I have 168 and 175 match ammo.

in answer to your question, a 2" group at 100 yards is gonna be a 6" group at 300yards. but you are shooting a battle rifle, and you should not be looking for tight groupings with that weapon. a fist size group should be your goal with that weapon at 100 yards. break out your 5r and shoot it and see how it does. i have a feeling you will have a bit better luck getting tighter groups with it...

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Yes a 2 inch group at 100 would mean a 6 inch group at 300 if conditions were ideal, and the shooter knew how to maximize bone/artificial support to get minimal arc of movement; but, the whole issue here is this shooter does not know how to build a consistent position and results at 300 yards therefore reveal angular error. This angular error is greater than the value of whatever the equivalent group sub tension would project from any shorter given distance.

OP,

Your problem is not a distance problem. Distance has just revealed you have a marksmanship problem. The only reason for perhaps practicing at 100 yards is to be able see holes in target allowing you to plot shots as well as calls in your data book.

 

[Cobracutter]

Everything already said about the "software" portion of shooting is spot on.

Keep in mind, you need to ensure your hardware is not your limiting factor as well.

Quality Gear (Guns, Ammo, Mounts, Optics,ect) are critical to minimize the probability of getting bad gear. The Stock SCAR trigger is much better than people give it credit it for, in fact mine is fantastic (a tad heavy but clean and crisp)

Did you torque everything to spec? (mounts, rings, optic, action screws if a bolt gun)? What kind of mount are you using? These things all play a role in wringing out and trouble shooting potenial problems.

With that being said 90% of the time its the software....the shooter. Don't listen to all the BS on the net about how everyone shoots 1/2 MOA at 1000 yards using rack grade 700's, tasco scopes in a hail storm.

REAL shooting proficency takes a shitload of learning, practice, paitence, thinking and eagerness for all of those. Its not an overnight process and takes YEARS to trully develop. You can't just buy shiney toys and expect to go out and run the course.


You HAVE to put down the ground work and foundation, otherwise your just making loud noises and pissing money down the drain.

 

[Cobracutter]

Sight picture, Trigger control, Quality ammo,Etc.
Are you being beat up by the recoil? I have shot a 308 scar and I felt I was getting pounded by the recoil. If I was going to shot a Scar I would replace the trigger and change out that muzzle brake. Also I would change out the stock to a Magpul PRS stock and add a limbsaver recoil pad. My rem 700 in 308 I can shoot all day with out any fatigue(500 rounds or so. I feel with minor changes to a scar 17 I would be able to do the same about 500 round or so. Options below: trigger, muzzle brake, stock, recoil pad. I know you feel you should be shooting better but you may need to make some modifications. Below are the mod's I would change, because the SCAR 17 is still down the road for me one day!!! Also practice and remember you will have to learn how to shoot while controlling the effects off the recoil going backwards and then forward, 5.56 no problem but 308 can be like a roller coaster ride.
Geissele Automatics | Quality Triggers for the Warfighter and Competitor
JP - Recoil Eliminators
SCAR ENHANCEMENTS by HDD TACTICAL - hi-desertdog.com - (Powered by CubeCart)
http://hi-desertdog.com/images/cache/L1A1 FAL/scar_ssr_stock_spec_ops_fde.270.jpg
M/P (Magpul/Pachmayr) Adapter and Recoil Pad Combo
LimbSaver - Products That Work | Archery | Firearms | Hunting Compound Bows | Limb Dampeners | Bow Stabilizers | Recoil Pads | Arrow Quivers | LimbSaver makes high quality products for the archery, firearm and hunting enthusiast.

The SCAR is the SOFTEST shooting .308 out there, BAR NONE.

Throwing all that bullshit on one, defeats the whole purpose of the weapon.......A light, accurate, stupid reliable gun that suppresses and carries glass well while shooting a more powerfull/longer range terminal round than the M16/M4.

If you need a recoil pad on a SCAR, you need to change your tampon. The Stock is GREAT for the type of shooting you want to do. The MK20 stock will be better when it comes out. The trigger is fine, if you cant shoot with it, then its not the trigger. The muzzle break is also one of the reasons the recoil is so light. Unless you plan to run a can, there is no reason to change it.

Its easy to see who has owned and ran the gun, and who is just parroting shit from other who have never run the gun.

 

[wilecoyote]

The OP should record every shot in a data book. For slow fire he should plot both call and shot. This will allow refinement of zeros for conditions, notice of trends, and to build confidence. If any one is interested I can post on how to use the data book.

you can bet that "someone" will be interested, if you could_
in this case, thank you very much, Sir, in advance__
respects_

 

[ahhshoot]

I didn't want to add these things because from my knowledge other people are able to hit coke cans with the gun at 300 yards. That being said, I figured I should at least get 10" groups 100% of the time.

I'm using a scar 17s, 308, with vortex viper scope, laying in prone position. I thought maybe the wind was the problem but today had almost no wind.

I'm not using match ammo, but I figure at 300 yards that would only make an inch or so difference. Some of my shots don't even hit on a 16" target.

Could 308 non-match ammo cause 10" or higher groups at 300 yards?

If you're not using match ammo then that's probably your problem. It's not a difference of a couple inches, it could be the difference of 5 or 6 inches even at 100 yards. Ammo is more than half of the equation. You can make a crappy gun shoot well with handloads. You will never make a good gun shoot well with crappy ammo.

Your 2" group at 100, all else being equal, should be 6" at 300. Simply multiply the group size by however much further you are shooting. But in the real world it's not a linear effect on the bullets flight path because of things like velocity loss at longer ranges, wind, etc etc. So if you are shooting a 2" group at 100 you might have an 8" group at 300 or larger. Also you need to make sure you are adjusting your parallax for whatever distance you are shooting or your scope will not give you an accurate representation of what is in front of it in relation to the reticle positoin. Hope this helps and happy shooting.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

you can bet that "someone" will be interested, if you could_
in this case, thank you very much, Sir, in advance__
respects_

Data Book (as used for HP, LR, or SDM practice session, other applications adjust as appropriate)

The Data Book is used to keep a record of shots and the conditions they were fired under. The data book's primary purpose is to confirm zeros and note trends that will increase accuracy and confidence.

The slow fire stage gives the shooter the opportunity to plot a shot and make corrections after each shot. Before shooting a slow fire stage record the no-wind zero. This is the elevation and wind setting that will place shots in the center of the target in a no-wind condition. It is called the Starting Zero. Then, record the sight setting believed to be necessary to counter for the effects of wind and weather conditions. This is called the Zero Used.

During firing plot every call and shot. Make wind call and make adjustment for each shot. Note trends, such as shots building a grouping off center of target, indicating the need to adjust sight to center group.

After firing is complete, remove wind from sight and record sight setting. This is called the Corrected Zero.

The rapid fire stage allows the shooter to shoot a group and see the group size and proximity to center. The only difference between recording data in the rapid fire stage and the slow fire stage is how it is recorded during firing.

During the rapid fire stage mentally call each shot. Plot shots after the first string is fired; and, make adjustment to sight for second string.

By annotating the Data Book at every range session, you will build confidence in your ability to counter for wind and weather, when observing conditions appearing to be similar to those earlier recorded.

 

[wilecoyote]

SS, I'm plannin, sooner or later, to collect all your answers, printing them in a book and makin'money selling it to all wannabe shooters here...
Seriously,Sir: thanks again_

 

[Sterling Shooter]

If you're not using match ammo then that's probably your problem. It's not a difference of a couple inches, it could be the difference of 5 or 6 inches even at 100 yards. Ammo is more than half of the equation. You can make a crappy gun shoot well with handloads. You will never make a good gun shoot well with crappy ammo.

Your 2" group at 100, all else being equal, should be 6" at 300. Simply multiply the group size by however much further you are shooting. But in the real world it's not a linear effect on the bullets flight path because of things like velocity loss at longer ranges, wind, etc etc. So if you are shooting a 2" group at 100 you might have an 8" group at 300 or larger. Also you need to make sure you are adjusting your parallax for whatever distance you are shooting or your scope will not give you an accurate representation of what is in front of it in relation to the reticle positoin. Hope this helps and happy shooting.

Ammunition is not the problem. The ammunition is not defective. Distance is not the problem. The bullet got to distance nose-on. The rifle is not the problem. The rifle is not broken. The problem is poor marksmanship, period. Distance revealed this was the problem. Distance unmasked shooter errors.

The solution is not to replace rack grade with match grade. That only serves as a substitute for poor marksmanship. The solution is to learn how to shoot, which can be done using a SCAR, M16A4, M4, whatever.

I have discussed this here. Cobracutter has discussed this here; but, it appears, some are not thinking it out, or have not read posts from the beginning.

 

[wilecoyote]

Ammunition is not the problem. The ammunition is not defective. Distance is not the problem. The bullet got to distance nose-on. The rifle is not the problem. The rifle is not broken. The problem is poor marksmanship, period. Distance revealed this was the problem. Distance unmasked shooter errors.

...and that's should be the preface of the book...

 

[ahhshoot]

Ammunition is not the problem. The ammunition is not defective. Distance is not the problem. The bullet got to distance nose-on. The rifle is not the problem. The rifle is not broken. The problem is poor marksmanship, period. Distance revealed this was the problem. Distance unmasked shooter errors.

The solution is not to replace rack grade with match grade. That only serves as a substitute for poor marksmanship. The solution is to learn how to shoot, which can be done using a SCAR, M16A4, M4, whatever.

I have discussed this here. Cobracutter has discussed this here; but, it appears, some are not thinking it out, or have not read posts from the beginning.

Sterling,

So I take it that you know the shooter and his capabilities? Please, some of you guys give yourselves way too much credit. Let's all drink a big glass of honesty here, shooting a rifle accurately is not that difficult. You can improve a little bit here and there and shrink your group size, improve your long range game, etc, but in reality you are talking roughly 85% equipment and 15% shooter. I have delved in other disciplines, I'm an archery coach, guitar player/teacher, raced motocross for a long time.. Let me tell you, you aren't doing this guy any favors. What if he is buying Wal Mart ammo? I had more than one rifle (Browning A-Bolt in 7mm Mag) that would not group inside 6" at 100 yards with what was considered 'expensive' ammo at Wal-Mart...the same rifle, same shooter (me), on the same day would put several 5 shot groups around 1/2" and the only change would be using match ammo... So you mean to tell me that this guy's poor marksmanship is the reason he can only shoot 2" groups at 100 yards, when just this weekend I had several people who had never shot a rifle before sit behind my 338 Lapua and my buddy's 6.5 Creedmoor and both shoot 1" or less groups with just a little basic coaching? My buddy and I have both had our ladies shoot our long range rigs and hit 1k yard 16" steel discs on their first tries! Give me a break man... What you're suggesting is the equivalent of me telling someone who is playing their guitar without it being in tune, and telling them they aren't a good guitar player rather than telling them they ought to just tune up. Will he be the next Doyle Dykes or Brent Mason? Probably not but he will at least get to learn with repeatability and consistency. Some of you guys need to get off your damn pedestal and step down to reality. Marksmanship may be part of his problem but you guys are acting like you could take a 6" gun from a sled and make it shoot .25 MOA with your stellar uncompromising marksmanship. Do you know what weight bullet he is using and twist rate? Is it sufficient to stabilize? Have you ever fired a bullet that was much too heavy for the twist rate of your barrel and see what happens? It's not a minor change... Just a few weeks ago we threw 180 Accubonds through my friend's dad's Model 7 .308 (handloads nonetheless) and couldn't get it to group better than 10" @ 100! A simple switch to 150 gr. Sierra Gamekings brought it to a respectable (for this gun) and consistent 1.5".

My apologies for not reading your previous discussions, but frankly, I don't really give a damn because from what you posted there I can tell the type of person you are and I don't hold your opinion in high regard. I shoot regularly, I am not a 'LR High Master' but I will regularly shoot .45MOA 10 round groups, did it twice in a row last Sunday from a bipod in prone position and I'll go do it again today if you want, I will regularly hit 1200 and 1400 yard cold bore shots using my reticle for ranging and call wind appropriately (this is where marksmanship comes in to play in my opinion, making long range unknown distance first round hits) and I know enough to know that telling someone that ammo is definitely not their problem, when you have no freaking idea, even if they are a beginner, is irresponsible and not in his best interest. At least let him learn with equipment that will give him consistent and repeatable results.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Sterling,

So I take it that you know the shooter and his capabilities? Please, some of you guys give yourselves way too much credit. Let's all drink a big glass of honesty here, shooting a rifle accurately is not that difficult. You can improve a little bit here and there and shrink your group size, improve your long range game, etc, but in reality you are talking roughly 85% equipment and 15% shooter. I have delved in other disciplines, I'm an archery coach, guitar player/teacher, raced motocross for a long time.. Let me tell you, you aren't doing this guy any favors. What if he is buying Wal Mart ammo? I had more than one rifle (Browning A-Bolt in 7mm Mag) that would not group inside 6" at 100 yards with what was considered 'expensive' ammo at Wal-Mart...the same rifle, same shooter (me), on the same day would put several 5 shot groups around 1/2" and the only change would be using match ammo... So you mean to tell me that this guy's poor marksmanship is the reason he can only shoot 2" groups at 100 yards, when just this weekend I had several people who had never shot a rifle before sit behind my 338 Lapua and my buddy's 6.5 Creedmoor and both shoot 1" or less groups with just a little basic coaching? My buddy and I have both had our ladies shoot our long range rigs and hit 1k yard 16" steel discs on their first tries! Give me a break man... What you're suggesting is the equivalent of me telling someone who is playing their guitar without it being in tune, and telling them they aren't a good guitar player rather than telling them they ought to just tune up. Will he be the next Doyle Dykes or Brent Mason? Probably not but he will at least get to learn with repeatability and consistency. Some of you guys need to get off your damn pedestal and step down to reality. Marksmanship may be part of his problem but you guys are acting like you could take a 6" gun from a sled and make it shoot .25 MOA with your stellar uncompromising marksmanship. Do you know what weight bullet he is using and twist rate? Is it sufficient to stabilize? Have you ever fired a bullet that was much too heavy for the twist rate of your barrel and see what happens? It's not a minor change... Just a few weeks ago we threw 180 Accubonds through my friend's dad's Model 7 .308 (handloads nonetheless) and couldn't get it to group better than 10" @ 100! A simple switch to 150 gr. Sierra Gamekings brought it to a respectable (for this gun) and consistent 1.5".

My apologies for not reading your previous discussions, but frankly, I don't really give a damn because from what you posted there I can tell the type of person you are and I don't hold your opinion in high regard. I shoot regularly, I am not a 'LR High Master' but I will regularly shoot .45MOA 10 round groups, did it twice in a row last Sunday from a bipod in prone position and I'll go do it again today if you want, I will regularly hit 1200 and 1400 yard cold bore shots using my reticle for ranging and call wind appropriately (this is where marksmanship comes in to play in my opinion, making long range unknown distance first round hits) and I know enough to know that telling someone that ammo is definitely not their problem, when you have no freaking idea, even if they are a beginner, is irresponsible and not in his best interest. At least let him learn with equipment that will give him consistent and repeatable results.

The truth here is that it is guy's like you stating the problem is the ammunition who don't have a clue. And if novices were to take your "expert" advice they'd get no where. Your last sentence pretty well sums up your ignorance on the matter. You do not need match grade equipment or ammunition for consistent and repeatable results. You do not need match grade to appraise marksmanship. Only those that do not know how to do it, like you, perceive that match grade is what is needed.

 

[ahhshoot]

The truth here is that it is guy's like you stating the problem is the ammunition who don't have a clue. And if novices were to take your "expert" advice they'd get no where. Your last sentence pretty well sums up your ignorance on the matter. You do not need match grade equipment or ammunition for consistent and repeatable results. You do not need match grade to appraise marksmanship. Only those that do not know how to do it, like you, perceive that match grade is what is needed.

Bud, I am not saying that match ammo is the only thing he can do well with. I'm saying you have no freaking idea what kind of ammo he is using and whether it is sufficient for the job. What if you, in all your glorious marksmanship ability, used his rifle and ammo and got the same results, while you sit here and tell him that you know for sure the ammo is not the problem and it's all his poor marksmanship... I can think of at least 10 or 15 different reasons his groups would be too big.. Ammo and marksmanship are just two. For you to say that you know for a fact it's his marksmanship, is a pretty grand assumption. Like I said, it doesn't take that great of marksmanship to shoot a rifle well-if the rifle is doing what it's supposed to. Calling wind at extended long range, making first round ELR hits, ranging targets, that I will admit is a new level of marksmanship. Shooting a group at 300 yards, well 300 yards is still pretty close and I can't imagine how poor someone's marksmanship would have to be to get those results. I never claimed to be an expert, that was you...

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Bud, I am not saying that match ammo is the only thing he can do well with. I'm saying you have no freaking idea what kind of ammo he is using and whether it is sufficient for the job. What if you, in all your glorious marksmanship ability, used his rifle and ammo and got the same results, while you sit here and tell him that you know for sure the ammo is not the problem and it's all his poor marksmanship... I can think of at least 10 or 15 different reasons his groups would be too big.. Ammo and marksmanship are just two. For you to say that you know for a fact it's his marksmanship, is a pretty grand assumption. Like I said, it doesn't take that great of marksmanship to shoot a rifle well-if the rifle is doing what it's supposed to. Calling wind at extended long range, making first round ELR hits, ranging targets, that I will admit is a new level of marksmanship. Shooting a group at 300 yards, well 300 yards is still pretty close and I can't imagine how poor someone's marksmanship would have to be to get those results. I never claimed to be an expert, that was you...

Here's how I know what I know. The shooter produced a group at 100 yards. This suggests the rifle is not broken and the ammunition is not defective. In a no wind condition the shooter did not produce a group at 300 yards. He stated that his shots were all over the place. This is an indication of shooter error, inconsistent perspective of aim, inconsistent position, poor trigger control. If the shooter had some knowledge of what is important to good shooting he would have produced a group at 300 with any ammunition. So, I do not need to know what ammunition he was shooting. I do know for a fact that the OP just does not know how to shoot. I also now know something about you. You do not know anything about shooter/target analysis. I hope you learn something about it before advising anyone that their problem is probably their ammunition.

 

[ahhshoot]

Here's how I know what I know. The shooter produced a group at 100 yards. In a no wind condition the shooter did not produce a group at 300 yards. He stated that his shots were all over the place. This is an indication of shooter error, inconsistent perspective of aim, inconsistent position, poor trigger control. If the shooter had some knowledge of what is important to good shooting he would have produced a group at 300 with any ammunition. So, I do not need to know what ammunition he was shooting. I do know for a fact that the OP just does not know how to shoot. I also now know something about you. You do not know anything about shooter/target analysis. I hope you learn something about it before advising anyone that their problem is probably their ammunition.

And I'm not disagreeing with you on that point. I'm just saying that I don't think that you should discount the fact that there may be and likely are (for the same reason-he's inexpereinced and may not know better) additional factors here. It's pretty clear he's a newbie, he said so earlier in the thread. But I'm not embellishing when I mention the Wal-Mart ammo. In my Browning, which shot great with handloads and other factory ammo, under 1" consistently, it would absolutely shoot terrible with the Winchester ballistic silvertip ammo I picked up from wally world. No joke, six inches at 100 yards, it was all over the place. There was no way anyone could learn with that. Some of these things were so hot I had to use a cheater bar to get the bolt open. I had a similar experience with some military surplus 7.62x51mm ammo. The gun would do under an inch and would do well out to 850 yards with the Hornady match 308 168 gr (the farthest I had shot at that time)... but would be lucky to group 5" with this crap. So all I'm trying to say is, that before he begins working on his technique, he ought to validate whether his ammo is going to be adequate for him to determine whether he is improving or not. Ammo is such a huge part of the equation, it's what's is doing all the work, it's what is going down range, and should not be overlooked. If he is shooting 10" groups at 300 or missing the target, that seems extremely bad even for a beginner, not saying he should buy only match grade ammo, but he should stick his gun in a vice and verify what the ammo is doing in that gun before he tries to improve his marksmanship ability, or he is just spinning his wheels and not able to make a determination whether the changes he makes to his shooting are positive or negative. I didn't mean to roast on you before, but I also didn't want this guy to go out to the range and get disappointed in himself and not want to shoot anymore, thinking he just sucks, if he does have some really bad ammo or there are other issues preventing him from even being able to make discernable improvements like the ones you suggest. Ideally we would like our rifles/ammo to shoot one hole groups from a vice, so then we can be 100% certain that any variation outside the vice is due to the shooter.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

There is every reason to discount non germane facts. It's the process and proceedure for discerning the cause of error quickly. In some shooting scenarios understanding the cause of error quickly allows for better results for work in progress; and, in all shooting scenarios being able to determine the cause of error hastens good results.

 

[Erud]

Wouldn't it be funny if it turned out the OP had something like loose scope rings or a loose flash suppressor? 300 yards ain't that far. If some rounds aren't even hitting the target, I'm not convinced that there is not an equipment/ammo problem here. It really doesn't take super-human fundamental marksmanship skills just to hit the paper, I see new shooters do it all the time. I did it quite easily way before I really learned anything about real shooting.


But then again, I must admit that I have never been to an M1 Garand clinic, so my knowledge on this topic may be suspect...

 

[ahhshoot]

There is every reason to discount non germane facts. It's the process and proceedure for discerning the cause of error quickly. In some shooting scenarios understanding the cause of error quickly allows for better results for work in progress; and, in all shooting scenarios being able to determine the cause of error hastens good results.

You are entitled to your opinion... A beginner even with terrible form should be able to group inside 16" at 300 yards. You are discounting the importance of ammunition that works well in a rifle. Like I said I have had first timers hit plates consistently at 1k and shoot inside of 1" at 100 with my equipment. Most of them do, actually. The OP could have parallax issues, cheekweld issues, trigger control issues, cant issues, body position issues, but if he doesn't make sure the rifle is doing what it should before he gets involved, it's pointless. You can't determine anything from his posts thus far, he hasn't said what his 100 yard groups are, he asked if they were 2" at 100 what should they be at 300 yards, you are assuming his group size is 2" at 100. If that is the case then he likely has parallax issues or cheek weld issues... perhaps he has some of the other issues as well, but that would not cause a 2" group at 100 to turn into a 16" group at 300. Those other issues are why he has a 2" group at 100 and not a 1" group at 100. Unless he has crappy ammo. Then he as a 2" group at 100 because of crappy ammo. But this is all hearsay, because he hasn't disclosed what his 100 yard group size is. So we don't know. .. No matter what your angle is, if you have 2" groups at 100, you will have 6" groups at 300 (all other variable such as wind and BC for some bullets aside). This is simple trig., angles are angles. MV will cause variation at longer ranges but this wouldn't happen until far beyond 300 yards and it damn sure wouldn't equal 16" groups. If his parallax is set at 50m or 100m and he is shooting 300 without adjusting it, and not keeping a consistent sight picture, he could have 2moa at best and be pointing the gun at a different part of the target without even realizing it. Again, pointless to address these issues until we verify whether his ammo is legit and what his 100 yard group size is.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Angular error from inconsistent perspective of aim, and/or from inconsistent control of rifle will easily produce the error the shooter has realized. This error increases with distance. This is NOT an ammunition issue. It IS a marksmanship issue. You do not need more information for analysis. You are not qualified to analyze this matter. You no nothing about shooter/target analysis. Perhaps, you too might want to consider some marksmanship training.

 

[Erud]

Angular error from inconsistent perspective of aim, and/or from inconsistent control of rifle will easily produce the error the shooter has realized. This error increases with distance. This is NOT an ammunition issue. It IS a marksmanship issue. You do not need more information for analysis. You are not qualified to analyze this matter. You no nothing about shooter/target analysis. Perhaps, you too might want to consider some marksmanship training.

And you "know" nothing about spelling. Your qualifications are not as impressive as you think they are to those of us who know what they mean.

 

[ahhshoot]

Angular error from inconsistent perspective of aim, and/or from inconsistent control of rifle will easily produce the error the shooter has realized. This error increases with distance. This is NOT an ammunition issue. It IS a marksmanship issue. You do not need more information for analysis. You are not qualified to analyze this matter. You no nothing about shooter/target analysis. Perhaps, you too might want to consider some marksmanship training.

How exactly are you able to analyze the issue when you don't know his 100 yard group size? The only info you have is he is getting 16" groups at 300. I will continue to analyze regardless of whether you feel I am qualified. If that makes you angry I can't help you.







Sent from my RM-820_nam_att_100 using Tapatalk

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

So the box of 550 22lr that shoots about 1/2 inch at fifty but at 100 shoots a 4 inch group means I suck as a shooter? Hmm then I run some wolf match thru the 22 and shazzam I am a shooter again with a 1 inch group at 100? I can call a good shot at 100 and the damn thing hits 2 inches high right or low left. Then the next 2 or three are pretty close to the called shot.

 

[Erud]

So the box of 550 22lr that shoots about 1/2 inch at fifty but at 100 shoots a 4 inch group means I suck as a shooter? Hmm then I run some wolf match thru the 22 and shazzam I am a shooter again with a 1 inch group at 100? I can call a good shot at 100 and the damn thing hits 2 inches high right or low left. Then the next 2 or three are pretty close to the called shot.

That's correct. You obviously are not using marksmanship fundamentals when you shoot at 100 yards with the bulk pack ammo, but you are with the Wolf ammo. This is a direct result of you sucking as a shooter. As Sterling Shooter always says; "the hole in the target tells you where the barrel was pointed when you pull the trigger" or some such nonsense. If you call a shot "right in there" and it hits 2 inches away, you obviously do not understand the call/strike corollary, most likely because you suck. Have you ever even been to a M1 Garand clinic? Because you sure don't act like it.

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

Ok, now I get it. Bulk pack=HUB. Head Up Buttocks.

 

[psycosteve]

It just hit me like a ton of bricks, it could be the zero of the rifle. one of the traps I fall into when I am shooting is to make adjustments to hit the bulls eye instead of looking for a consistent grouping and basing data off that to improve my shooting. This is a combination of factors as I do believe your rifle was never properly zeroed at any range, B you do not know enough about your holds to make the proper adjustments and finally the poor fundamentals of the shooter. Before you learn bad habits you need to unlearn I highly recommend some kind of basic rifle course . Or you could do like I did shoot up a bunch of ammo and not hit anything then have to unlearn your bad habits that almost never go away.

 

[ZombieMonkey]

OP, stop using shit ammo, it isn't doing you any justice as you are not able to accurately gauge what is due to shooter error and what is due to poor ammo quality. You likely have a combination of both poor ammo quality and a need for more practice being more consistent. Also, do you understand how to adjust the scope properly to eliminate parallax errors?

Sterling, lets not kid ourselves and act like 300 yards will induce as much angular error as you like to claim. Sorry, but to be fully missing the target from prone would take some seriously bad shooting on the OPs part. There are a number of things likely at play here, but this does not sound like a one size fits all answer. The SCAR is a very capable platform with good ammo.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Here's what we know for sure from the shooter's description of events: the bullet holes on the target indicate where the barrel was pointed and the bullet holes on target indicate shots did not go where aimed. This means inconsistent control of the rifle, and/or inconsistent perspective of aim. These are shooter errors. This has nothing to do with whether or not match grade ammunition would improve results, of course it would; but, ammunition is not a cure. The solution is to improve marksmanship. Now, could the gun be broken or ammunition be defective, that we do not know for sure because we do not know the size or shape of grouping at the 100 yard distance. We do however know that the OP did not allude to a perceived accuracy issue at the shorter distance. So going on what we know for sure and what was alluded, the shooter's marksmanship skill is suspect. We cannot surmise any more. But, because this is a common problem associated with novice shooters it can be said to be a probable cause of error. Ammunition can not be said to be a probable cause of error since skilled shooters do indeed get good results with rack grade ammunition.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

It just hit me like a ton of bricks, it could be the zero of the rifle. one of the traps I fall into when I am shooting is to make adjustments to hit the bulls eye instead of looking for a consistent grouping and basing data off that to improve my shooting. This is a combination of factors as I do believe your rifle was never properly zeroed at any range, B you do not know enough about your holds to make the proper adjustments and finally the poor fundamentals of the shooter. Before you learn bad habits you need to unlearn I highly recommend some kind of basic rifle course . Or you could do like I did shoot up a bunch of ammo and not hit anything then have to unlearn your bad habits that almost never go away.

Your observation will help you to get good zeros. Remember the definition of zero is where bullet path and line of sight intersect and the resulting value in any form of measurement is zero. When was the last time that happened? The reality is most of us cannot place all bullets in one hole and therefore we triangulate our groupings to get a zero. Since our groupings represent essentially a bunch of shots showing measurable errors which are inconsistent, zeros are not absolute. Developing marksmanship and using match grade equipment can improve our groupings and thus our zeros; but, uncertain wind and weather conditions will still thwart perfection. If you get a data book you will be able to keep track of your zeros; and, noting trends, your zeros will get better as your marksmanship skills improve.

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

Here's what we know for sure from the shooter's description of events: the bullet holes on the target indicate where the barrel was pointed and the bullet holes on target indicate shots did not go where aimed. This means inconsistent control of the rifle, and/or inconsistent perspective of aim. These are shooter errors. This has nothing to do with whether or not match grade ammunition would improve results, of course it would; but, ammunition is not a cure. The solution is to improve marksmanship. Now, could the gun be broken or ammunition be defective, that we do not know for sure because we do not know the size or shape of grouping at the 100 yard distance. We do however know that the OP did not allude to a perceived accuracy issue at the shorter distance. So going on what we know for sure and what was alluded, the shooter's marksmanship skill is suspect. We cannot surmise any more. But, because this is a common problem associated with novice shooters it can be said to be a probable cause of error. Ammunition can not be said to be a probable cause of error since skilled shooters do indeed get good results with rack grade ammunition.

Do you honestly believe this BS? "Ammunition can not be said to be a probable cause of error since skilled shooters do indeed get good results with rack grade ammunition"
Freaking psychic shooter hero you must be!! To be able to predict where crap ammo will impact and adjust aim for it. WOW freaking impressive. You, Sir, have drunk too much of your own Kool aide.

 

[ahhshoot]

Do you honestly believe this BS? "Ammunition can not be said to be a probable cause of error since skilled shooters do indeed get good results with rack grade ammunition"
Freaking psychic shooter hero you must be!! To be able to predict where crap ammo will impact and adjust aim for it. WOW freaking impressive. You, Sir, have drunk too much of your own Kool aide.

I'm interested to hear the explanation of ammo that groups 6" @ 100 yards when the gun is in a vice and the barrel is pointed in the same spot...what is the explanation then? Poor vice shooting marksmanship? Maybe the barrel was pointed in the same spot but if the ammo is inconsistent, by the time the projectile leaves the muzzle it will NOT be pointing in the same direction as the harmonics on the barrel will cause it to flex into a different point in space each time the bullet leaves the muzzle. It is NOT uncommon to buy off the shelf ammo that performs this poorly. Does Sterling know that Wal-Mart's ammo, even though it is in the same box as the ammo you buy from the gun shop and online, is not the same? Look at the product number on the box..chances are it has a 'WM' prefix... this means it's stuff dedicated from the factory for Wal Mart..which means it's cheap and shitty. As I said before...the shooter probably has mechanics issues with his marksmanship...but if the gun is working well then he ought ot be able to hit a 16" target at 300 yards no matter HOW poorly his body positioning is. He needs to check his equipment including his ammo before making other adjustments. We are shooting ammo, the rifle is just the tool that gets it down range. Sterling is downplaying the importance of this.