Hey guys, I was just wondering what projectile would be better for 1000 yard target shooting. Ok, so I've got a 28" barrel with 1:10 twist and I push out 155 gr at 2800 fps (the bc on the 155 gr is .483 G1). Ok now for the 175's. I push out the 175's at 2630 fps and they have .515 G1 bc. I've compared both projectiles and it seems that the 155's are going a little faster at 1000 yards. Can you guys help me out? What projectile would be better for 1000 yard target shooting? Oh and by the way, minus the wind. If there's a decent amount of wind I'll use the 175's. Thanks.
- Thread starter John1999
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I still think the 175 is going to do better. Don't ever really hear about people shooting the 155's out to1,000 yds.
I've also RARELY seen a windless day, especially all the way out to 1,000 yds. Maybe smaller lighter breezes, but never windless over that distance.
I've also RARELY seen a windless day, especially all the way out to 1,000 yds. Maybe smaller lighter breezes, but never windless over that distance.
John,
The various 155 Palma bullets were made specifically for 1,000 yard shooting, but there's more to the story than that. They were made due to the Palma match rules, which require a bullet no heavier than 155 grains for international Palma competition, not because 155 grains is somehow "better" than other weights and styles used in LR competition. In doing this, there were several basic guidelines of bullet design that had to be discarded in order to get these bullets to a configuration that would reliably stay supersonic at 1,000. Reduced bearing surface is one of the big ones, and is at least in part why most dedicated Palma rifles are built with tight barrels. Usually somewhere around .2985" bores and .3065" grooves. The rifles are also almost invariably built with long barrels, usually 29"-30" or so to wring out every last bit of velocity from the 308 Win cartridge (also mandated by the rules). They generally need around 2,950 fps to ensure supersonic performance from this combination, meaning that your 2,800 fps is going to be marginal, at best, in may places.
The 175s were also designed to deliver supersonic performance at 1,000 from a 308/7.62, and will do so without such a specialized rifle. They generally need around 2,620 fps or so to remain supersonic all the way out, which your rifle should be perfectly capable of doing. Between the two, I'd suggest going with the 175s as being the easier to work with.
The various 155 Palma bullets were made specifically for 1,000 yard shooting, but there's more to the story than that. They were made due to the Palma match rules, which require a bullet no heavier than 155 grains for international Palma competition, not because 155 grains is somehow "better" than other weights and styles used in LR competition. In doing this, there were several basic guidelines of bullet design that had to be discarded in order to get these bullets to a configuration that would reliably stay supersonic at 1,000. Reduced bearing surface is one of the big ones, and is at least in part why most dedicated Palma rifles are built with tight barrels. Usually somewhere around .2985" bores and .3065" grooves. The rifles are also almost invariably built with long barrels, usually 29"-30" or so to wring out every last bit of velocity from the 308 Win cartridge (also mandated by the rules). They generally need around 2,950 fps to ensure supersonic performance from this combination, meaning that your 2,800 fps is going to be marginal, at best, in may places.
The 175s were also designed to deliver supersonic performance at 1,000 from a 308/7.62, and will do so without such a specialized rifle. They generally need around 2,620 fps or so to remain supersonic all the way out, which your rifle should be perfectly capable of doing. Between the two, I'd suggest going with the 175s as being the easier to work with.
Go play around with the JBM ballistic calculator. I think you will be surprised by what you find. I know its just a calculator, but my experience has shown it to be very accurate.
For Example, I used my own personal loads for the 155 Lapua Scenar and the 175 SMK.
155 Scenar @ 1000:
MV: 2,875 FPS (Can be pushed much faster btw)
Drop @ 1000: 345.5"
Drift in 10 mph wind @ 1000: 98.6"
Velocity @ 1000: 1,218.1 FPS
G7 BC: .236
175 SMK @ 1000:
MV: 2,650 FPS
Drop @ 1000: 412"
Drift in 10 mph wind @ 1000: 108.5"
Velocity @ 1000: 1,114 FPS
G7 BC: .243
My 155 Scenar load is better in all aspects because of the velocity advantage (in the air for less time to be affected by the existing conditions) despite having a slight, probably negligible, disadvantage in the BC department.
For Example, I used my own personal loads for the 155 Lapua Scenar and the 175 SMK.
155 Scenar @ 1000:
MV: 2,875 FPS (Can be pushed much faster btw)
Drop @ 1000: 345.5"
Drift in 10 mph wind @ 1000: 98.6"
Velocity @ 1000: 1,218.1 FPS
G7 BC: .236
175 SMK @ 1000:
MV: 2,650 FPS
Drop @ 1000: 412"
Drift in 10 mph wind @ 1000: 108.5"
Velocity @ 1000: 1,114 FPS
G7 BC: .243
My 155 Scenar load is better in all aspects because of the velocity advantage (in the air for less time to be affected by the existing conditions) despite having a slight, probably negligible, disadvantage in the BC department.
In my opinion, the 185 gr Berger Juggernaut is becoming the "standard" 1K bullet. If you've got a throat long enough, I'd use that. If not, Berger has quite a few top notch bullets in the 155-175 weight range. Sierra bullets? Not so much in 30 cal.
Go with the 175gr SMK. It'll be better for battling the wind over the 155gr. I push mine from a 1:12 twist going 2750fps and they do great.
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I'm going +1 on the 185 berger. I don't have JBM and hope someone on here runs my numbers but...26" 12tw krieger is sending them sub 1/2 moa for average velocity of 2740. SD 4 and ES 9 jumping them .090. That being said, they will work fine if you can seat 175s with room
Like someone said above the throat has to be long for the 185 juggs and hybrids. Mine probably isn't long enough but I'm going to try it anyway. Worst case I end up with a finish reamer to lengthen it. I'm shooting the 155's a bunch right now since I can get them. I have almost 1000 175 smk pulls, I'm just not totally happy with them.
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I know lowlight was playing with these(185 jugs) as well and he was loading them at 2.88 and then was gonna go shorter...I'm sure it would be worth a try on top of either RL17 or 2000mr. I load mine off ogive but do believe the OAL is 2.90 for a .090 jump
Do you recall what elevation and temperature you plugged in for that data?
All 155, 30 cal bullets are not created equal. The scenar product has the best bc of them all. Beats the crap out of the 175 past 600 yards in windage and elevation. 46 gr of varget gets me around 2930fps out of a 26", 1:11.25 twist match tube from schneider
I used the defaults just for the example but at my altitude and typical atmospheric conditions I get about the same results. In fact, changing the atmospherics and elevation up to 10,000 ft., my 155 Scenar load is always better than my 175 SMK load.
In drop the Scenar is always 16%-18% better
In wind the Scenar is always 9%-11% better
In velocity the Scenar is always 9%-10% faster
A lot of good suggestions and info has been given but no one has mentioned the most important point. "It depends on what your rifle likes to shoot". My Savage loves 155 palmas but won't shoot a 175 for shit. My remy 700 milspec is just the opposite. Loves 175 Bergers but doesn't do well with 155s. The savage has a 1-12 30" tube and the remys is 24" 1-11.25.
So, do some testing and see what your gun likes before you buy a butt load of bullets that it won't shoot. I, personally have never done this
but I've heard that it has happened.
So, do some testing and see what your gun likes before you buy a butt load of bullets that it won't shoot. I, personally have never done this
but I've heard that it has happened.
What are your guys taughts on 190gr nosler cc for 1000yds. What mv would be needed to make this work out of a 24" 5r rock bisley chamber. The bc of this projectile is .530 compared to a 175gr SMK@ .496 BC and the added weight to buck the wind. Apologize for the thread partial jack same topic so figured it would help us both
Are their defaults the standard 59-degrees F. at sea level, or something else?
You'd be amazed at those that believe the heavier bullet is always best! They've just never looked at BC(s). I have seen on this very board those arguing that a heavier bullet always is the best performer, and as they shoot a lot of the heavier bullets each year, they should know! M40-A1 has sure posted some hard to argue with data!
I didn't post any data. You must mean SavageSlayer.
It does depend on what your rifle eats the best, but the 175gr SMK is going to deal with the wind a lot better with less correction then the 155gr. Also with certain conditions where dropping into transonic/sub-sonic the 175gr SMK will hold stability threw the transition. Rule of thumb is always keep your G1 BC above .500 in any extreme range shooting. Bullets that are below this .500 marker have less energy for maximum damage, and tend to loose stability dropping into the transonic/sub-sonic range. Just my two cents.
I used to shoot the 175's. but I switched to Hornady's 178 bthp match bullets and run varget. Better bc and it's affordable. Right now they are kinda low on supply but I found one company that has them at a good price and in stock. I bought a bunch but they have more. I have then running out of a 20' barrel suppressed at 2704fps. They do very well 1k plus and handle the wind too.
Ive been looking at trying that exact bullet powder combo in my .308 Savage FCP-SR. Where you buying them and do you have a good recipe for a baseline? if you dont mind sharing.
my milspec 5r likes sierra 175s i try to load them to get similar fgmm performance.
however thats not the point of my question.. which is..
some claim weight some claim BC is more important. some seem to imply that weight trumps BC (within a range more or less). my understanding is that BC determines the effects that wind has on a bullet not weight. for instance a 155 grain bullet with a bc of .500 would 'buck the wind' better than a 185 grain bullet with a bc of .480. even if both had the same muzzle velocity which most of the time the lighter bullet has a faster muzzle velocity.
comments?
however thats not the point of my question.. which is..
some claim weight some claim BC is more important. some seem to imply that weight trumps BC (within a range more or less). my understanding is that BC determines the effects that wind has on a bullet not weight. for instance a 155 grain bullet with a bc of .500 would 'buck the wind' better than a 185 grain bullet with a bc of .480. even if both had the same muzzle velocity which most of the time the lighter bullet has a faster muzzle velocity.
comments?
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Your dead on, except BC is not static, it changes with velocity, however; if you "tip" a bullet (as sierra did with their 155s) the BC goes up everywhere along the flight path. BC isn't just about "bucking the wind" but also how well it retains velocity ( how flat it shoots).
Bc is not the end all be all. Form factor (part of the equation of bc) plays a role here. http://www.bergerbullets.com/form-factors-a-useful-analysis-tool/
I would guess the 155 scenar has a better form factor than a 175 smk. So while having a slightly lower bc the speed at which it travels makes up for it. Now past 1000 the extra bc of the 175 smk may be better than the 155 scenar dependent on how fast you could push it. Look at me talking about 1000 yards when all I have access to is 200 :/
I would guess the 155 scenar has a better form factor than a 175 smk. So while having a slightly lower bc the speed at which it travels makes up for it. Now past 1000 the extra bc of the 175 smk may be better than the 155 scenar dependent on how fast you could push it. Look at me talking about 1000 yards when all I have access to is 200 :/
This. I use hornady 178bthp/2000 MR combo and its excellent at 1000yds. Check oaklandtactical. They have it for $33/100. Im gping to try 185 Bergers Jug if I find some to compare
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Kevin,
Not to question your knowledge, about Sierra's or anything ballistic as I'll never approach approach your level, but in the statement above are you referencing the "2155" bullet or the newer "2156". The reason I ask is that from my 20" .308 I am running the newer 2156 at 2,756 fps and iStrelock shows it going 1,202 fps at 1,000 (950' elevation) which pretty much correlates with the minutes I put in my scope to get a first round hit at 1k.
I also do not question other members posts regarding the better ballistics of the Scenar, but my particular barrel did not like them so I ended up shooting the Sierra's for my informal shooting and found they worked ok at 1k.
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My experience is that your rifle will be the biggest determining factor in what load you use at 1000 yards. I prefer to shoot 175 SMKs out my of 308s because, for whatever reason, I don't get pressure signs on the higher accuracy nodes like I do with 155 scenars. I love the scenars, but I can't push them fast enough to edge out the 175s in relative drop/windage gains. Bottom line is that you need to see what threshold you can push both the 175s and the 155s at, how well they shoot in your rifle, and then run the numbers on them.
I have 3 308s: 16.5" (Truck gun), 17.5" (Gas gun), 18" (bolt gun). None of these are ideal at 1000 anyway but they'll all make it out there. It's kind of like trying to throw a baseball over my house and hitting the target. If I know I'm shooting at a 1000 or more, I'm reaching for another rifle. Still, a 308 will do it, and your 28" musket will have better performance at distance than my builds will.
I have 3 308s: 16.5" (Truck gun), 17.5" (Gas gun), 18" (bolt gun). None of these are ideal at 1000 anyway but they'll all make it out there. It's kind of like trying to throw a baseball over my house and hitting the target. If I know I'm shooting at a 1000 or more, I'm reaching for another rifle. Still, a 308 will do it, and your 28" musket will have better performance at distance than my builds will.
^^^^^ This is the answer, but the key point is the Lapua 155's need to be driven at over 2900 fps to show a material improvement over 175's going 2700+.
As mentioned, this is a specialized application and in my opinion, trying to make the 308 into something that it was not intended to be. This comes from guys trying to shoehorn as much performance out of a 308 and still fit into arbitrary NRA guidelines.
If you want this type of performance, and not shooting NRA, just get a 260 and be done.
