Hey y'all. I've heard that 308.win is more accurate than 30/06.sprg at range. Any one have any experience with that? If so how much difference is there really? Can anyone shoot 4-5 inch groups or better at 600+ yards with your 30/06? I haven't had an opportunity to test it for myself unfortunately so i'll relay on ya'lls word
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Yup very familiar with the ballistics of the two. I don't understand how the 308 could possibly give better accuracy given it shoots the same bullet as the 06 and slower. My buddy has a r700 LR in 30/06 that he shoots half inch groups with at 300 yards. That seems pretty damn good for a 600 dollar factory rifle. That would be really impressive if his claim was true
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The 308 is not more accurate than the '06. And in fact, the '06 is much more versatile than the 308
What do you mean by more versatile?
In 30-06 you can load way more bullets from 120gr (or less) to 220grs. Also, you can load 168gr 308 Same (BC) in both and get faster MV in 30-06. Thus, you get flatter trajectory with 30-06. Heavy bullets can fight wind better than in 308.
Normally (typical loads) 30-06 would kick noticeably more than 308. For some shooters this would negatively affect accuracy. No arguments that 30-06 is a very versatile round.
My personal choices: for practice - the most common = 308. For 1000m+ precision - 260 Rem. For 1500m+ - 338 LM (or call air support, whatever's available
).
Mouse
NRA Life Member Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk - now Free
My personal choices: for practice - the most common = 308. For 1000m+ precision - 260 Rem. For 1500m+ - 338 LM (or call air support, whatever's available
).Mouse
NRA Life Member Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk - now Free
I shoot both, once you factor in wind the 30-06 gets the nod. A 308 cant shoot 230 grain hybrids in the mid 2500 nor 208's in the mid 2700's, nor 185 hybrids in the high 2800's... the 30-06 can.
The versatility is why i love 30/06 so much although i do notice alot more recoil then my bolt 308. I shoot 50-100 rounds in each sitting of 3 and 3-1/2" magnum 12ga slugs so the recoil from the 30/06 really isnt a bother lol. Thanks everyone for your replies.
I handload and shoot precision rifles in both chamberings. Don't think there is any difference in accuracy potential, it's all about a good rifle, and good ammo.
Given equal barrel lengths, the 30-06 has 150-200 fps more velocity potential, if one knows how to capitalize on the 30-06's larger case volume. And of course the extra speed does reduce wind drift, and increases supersonic range.
Given equal barrel lengths, the 30-06 has 150-200 fps more velocity potential, if one knows how to capitalize on the 30-06's larger case volume. And of course the extra speed does reduce wind drift, and increases supersonic range.
.16 MOA with a factory 700; that didn't happen on purpose if it happened at all.
Im not quite sure i believe it but i sure want to considering im buying that same rifle once i get some more money Rollin in
I can assure you that your buddy was full of shit.
A lot of people talk about small groups when they aren't on the range. Once they get out there, for some reason those groups never show.
A lot of people talk about small groups when they aren't on the range. Once they get out there, for some reason those groups never show.
Your definitely right on that! Seen it to many times.
Unless.....it was EddieG1979....
I have no dog in this fight, but I am certain that if one were to consider the Service rifle matches, before the AR15 took over, you would see that most folks shooting a .30 cal were shooting the M1A/M14.
The following article may be why:
Accuracy Facts By Bart Bobbitt :
.308 Winchester versus .30-06 Springfield
"All that aside, lets go back to when the .30-06 and .308 were the only cartridges allowed in NRA match rifle matches. Both cartridges were used in barrels of equal quality as well as the same action and stocks by several top shooters in the USA. Both cartridges were used in matches at ranges from 100 through 1000 yards. Many thousands of rounds were fired in both types. Bullets from 168 through 200 grains were used with several powder, case and primer combinations.
In comparing accuracy between the .308 and .30-06, folks who used each quickly agreed on one thing: .308s were two to three times more accurate than the .30-06. In the early 1960s, it was also observed that competitors with lower classifications using .308s were getting higher scores than higher classified folks using .30-06s; at all ranges. By the middle to late 1960s, all the top highpower shooters and virtually all the rest had switched to the .308. The Highpower Committee had received so many complaints of ties not being able to be broke between shooters using the .308 and shooting all their shots in the tie-breaking V-ring, something had to be done to resolve this issue. In 1966, the NRA cut in half the target scoring ring dimensions.
At the peak of the .30-06's use as a competition cartridge, the most accurate rifles using it would shoot groups at 200 yards of about 2 inches, at 300 of about 3 inches. The 600-yard groups were 6 to 7 inches and at 1000 yards about 16 inches. As the high-scoring ring in targets was 3 inches at 200 and 300 yards, 12 inches at 600 and 20 inches at 1000, the top scores fired would have 90+ percent of the shots inside this V-ring.
Along came the 7.62mm NATO and its commercial version; the .308 Winchester. In the best rifles, 200 yard groups were about 3/4ths inch, at 300 about 1-1/2 inch. At 600 yards, groups were about 2-1/2 inch and at 1000 about 7 to 8 inches. It was not very long before the .30-06 round no longer won matches nor set any records; all it's records were broken by the .308 by a considerable margin. Some accuracy tests at 600 yards with the .308 produced test groups in the 1 to 2 inch range. These were 20 to 40 shot groups. No .30-06 has ever come close to shooting that well.
At 1000 yards, where both the .30-06 and .308 were allowed in Palma matches, the .308 was the clear-cut most accurate of the two. If top shooters felt the .30-06 was a more accurate round, they would have used it - they didn't. In fact by the early 1970s, the scoring ring dimensions on the 800 - 1000 yard target were also cut in about half due to the accuracy of both the .308 Win. over the .30-06 and the .30-.338 over the .300 H&H when used in long range matches.
Most top highpower shooters feel the main reason the .308 is much more accurate than the .30-06 is its shorter, fatter case promotes more uniform and gentle push on the bullet due to a higher loading density (less air space) and a more easily uniformly ignitable powder charge.
Military arsenals who produced match and service ammo in both 7.62mm and 30 caliber have fired thousands of test rounds/groups with both. They also found out that with both ammo types, the smallest groups were with the 7.62 by about 50 to 60 percent. M1 rifles in 7.62 shot about twice as small of groups as .30 M1s at all ranges. When the M14 was first used, there were some .30-06 M1 rifles that would shoot more accurately. It took the service teams several years to perfect the methods of making M14s shoot well, but when they did, they shot as good as M1s in 7.62. There will always be folks who claim the .30-06 is a more accurate cartridge. All I have to say to them is to properly test .308 vs. .30-06 and find out. Theory is nice to think about; facts determine the truth. "
The following article may be why:
Accuracy Facts By Bart Bobbitt :
.308 Winchester versus .30-06 Springfield
"All that aside, lets go back to when the .30-06 and .308 were the only cartridges allowed in NRA match rifle matches. Both cartridges were used in barrels of equal quality as well as the same action and stocks by several top shooters in the USA. Both cartridges were used in matches at ranges from 100 through 1000 yards. Many thousands of rounds were fired in both types. Bullets from 168 through 200 grains were used with several powder, case and primer combinations.
In comparing accuracy between the .308 and .30-06, folks who used each quickly agreed on one thing: .308s were two to three times more accurate than the .30-06. In the early 1960s, it was also observed that competitors with lower classifications using .308s were getting higher scores than higher classified folks using .30-06s; at all ranges. By the middle to late 1960s, all the top highpower shooters and virtually all the rest had switched to the .308. The Highpower Committee had received so many complaints of ties not being able to be broke between shooters using the .308 and shooting all their shots in the tie-breaking V-ring, something had to be done to resolve this issue. In 1966, the NRA cut in half the target scoring ring dimensions.
At the peak of the .30-06's use as a competition cartridge, the most accurate rifles using it would shoot groups at 200 yards of about 2 inches, at 300 of about 3 inches. The 600-yard groups were 6 to 7 inches and at 1000 yards about 16 inches. As the high-scoring ring in targets was 3 inches at 200 and 300 yards, 12 inches at 600 and 20 inches at 1000, the top scores fired would have 90+ percent of the shots inside this V-ring.
Along came the 7.62mm NATO and its commercial version; the .308 Winchester. In the best rifles, 200 yard groups were about 3/4ths inch, at 300 about 1-1/2 inch. At 600 yards, groups were about 2-1/2 inch and at 1000 about 7 to 8 inches. It was not very long before the .30-06 round no longer won matches nor set any records; all it's records were broken by the .308 by a considerable margin. Some accuracy tests at 600 yards with the .308 produced test groups in the 1 to 2 inch range. These were 20 to 40 shot groups. No .30-06 has ever come close to shooting that well.
At 1000 yards, where both the .30-06 and .308 were allowed in Palma matches, the .308 was the clear-cut most accurate of the two. If top shooters felt the .30-06 was a more accurate round, they would have used it - they didn't. In fact by the early 1970s, the scoring ring dimensions on the 800 - 1000 yard target were also cut in about half due to the accuracy of both the .308 Win. over the .30-06 and the .30-.338 over the .300 H&H when used in long range matches.
Most top highpower shooters feel the main reason the .308 is much more accurate than the .30-06 is its shorter, fatter case promotes more uniform and gentle push on the bullet due to a higher loading density (less air space) and a more easily uniformly ignitable powder charge.
Military arsenals who produced match and service ammo in both 7.62mm and 30 caliber have fired thousands of test rounds/groups with both. They also found out that with both ammo types, the smallest groups were with the 7.62 by about 50 to 60 percent. M1 rifles in 7.62 shot about twice as small of groups as .30 M1s at all ranges. When the M14 was first used, there were some .30-06 M1 rifles that would shoot more accurately. It took the service teams several years to perfect the methods of making M14s shoot well, but when they did, they shot as good as M1s in 7.62. There will always be folks who claim the .30-06 is a more accurate cartridge. All I have to say to them is to properly test .308 vs. .30-06 and find out. Theory is nice to think about; facts determine the truth. "
Darn you!! Hahaha Right when i was starting to believe its crap i get more of the stories i was talking about.
Comparing the 30-06 in the Garand, to the 308 in the M14, in the realm of Service Rifle competition is one thing. Probably some quantifiable advantages to the M14 platform and the 308.
Comparing the 30-06 to the 308 in precision boltguns, with handloaded precision ammo, is a totally different thing. Pretty tough to quantify any accuracy advantage between chamberings.
Comparing the 30-06 to the 308 in precision boltguns, with handloaded precision ammo, is a totally different thing. Pretty tough to quantify any accuracy advantage between chamberings.
Service platforms have nothing to do with the potential or accuracy of the rounds in question.
The long range and Palma matches mentioned DO use precision bolt rifles.
Yes im there is many accounts of this with precision bolt guns
I can tell you this, my bolt gun does not shoot 2 inches at 200 or 3 inches at 300 or 16 inches at 1k! The smallest groups I have shot on paper was 1.49 inches for a 5 shot group at 360. I was able to bang a 1.2 moa gong at a somewhat rapid fire 3/5 and 5/5 at 1K.Now I don't know if I can do that again but I sure will be trying. My 06 can shoot pretty damn tight as tight as my shooting partners .308s. I still say there is no difference between the two calibers maybe in the 60's before some of these modern powders came out, now you can load the '06 to fill the case. you now can get uniform ignition in the '06.
IIRC Palma matches limit you to .308s and 155 grain bullets right? If so then what is the point of mentioning it?
IIRC Palma matches limit you to .308s and 155 grain bullets right? If so then what is the point of mentioning it?
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Ooh, ooh, pick me! Pick me!
Because 30-06 was a Palma cartridge when the article was written (not too long ago to us old farts)?
Rules and Tips for Palma Rifle Shooting in the USA.
LOL I can hear you in your best Arnold Horseshack voice....Ok again I say that was before modern powders that allowed the '06 to get a good case fill which was one of the reason the .308 was more accurate then the '06 at the time. Now that exist no more...
I am merely postulating on where the belief that the .308 was more accurate originated, I did not say one was more accurate than the other, however, when shooting a service rifle in a competition that requires accuracy, accurate wind reading and excellent shooting fundamentals have a great deal to do with a reputation of accuracy. Considering that both cartridges were service rifle cartridges (yes, there is a difference in 7.62x51 vs .308 win), I submit that reputations were made at the service rifle matches.
Here you go, an interesting read:
The Rifleman's Journal: Cartridges: The Logical .30-06
Here's another review or comparison of the two with shooting data.
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2011/04/cartridges-sibling-rivalry-308-vs-30-06.html?m=1
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2011/04/cartridges-sibling-rivalry-308-vs-30-06.html?m=1
I acquese to your position. I though you were using the aforementioned rifles as the standard and potential of the given rounds. Huge difference.
My opinion the .308 WIN is a little more user friendly. As far ballistics...you can squeeze a bit more out of the 30-06. More cubic inches = more horsepower
I picked up a 30-06 Vanguard for no reason other than to experiment a bit. I wanted to run a 168 ballistic tip as I have more than a few. 2960fps in a 24" tube. I'm going to break out the 208 Amax next.
LOL. 2014 thread. Glad we're back. Hated Scout.
LOL. 2014 thread. Glad we're back. Hated Scout.
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