308 vs. 6.5 Creed in 16 inch lightweight bolt gun for mountain trekking

Nivium

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Appreciate the response. Am I wrong that 7-08 is pretty much ideal for short barrels? Maybe I'm confusing something.

Also, what about 6.5 PRC vs 300WSM? I seem to see them both on the shelves equally (rarely for either). In my mind, 6.5 would be lighter in the magazine and less recoil. Any downsides as compared to 300WSM? Factory ammo?

Thanks again
 

Supersubes

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    Appreciate the response. Am I wrong that 7-08 is pretty much ideal for short barrels? Maybe I'm confusing something.

    Also, what about 6.5 PRC vs 300WSM? I seem to see them both on the shelves equally (rarely for either). In my mind, 6.5 would be lighter in the magazine and less recoil. Any downsides as compared to 300WSM? Factory ammo?

    Thanks again
    Nothing connecting 7-08 or any suitable standard hunting cartridge to a short barrel.
     

    Glassaholic

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    Appreciate the response. Am I wrong that 7-08 is pretty much ideal for short barrels? Maybe I'm confusing something.

    Also, what about 6.5 PRC vs 300WSM? I seem to see them both on the shelves equally (rarely for either). In my mind, 6.5 would be lighter in the magazine and less recoil. Any downsides as compared to 300WSM? Factory ammo?

    Thanks again
    I guess it depends on the purpose with regard to ideal? You can run the ballistics and see if it works.

    @MOUNTIC has 6.5 PRC with fairly short barrel. Yes, 6.5 PRC definitely has more availability on the shelves. Same concept as WSM and SAUM - short, fat, magnum…
     

    SkyScrapin

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    Please tell me they’re bolt guns … would love to see a photo if they are.
    Not light weight but they do hunt.

    Here’s the 6.5CM in all of 12”.
    54AAF45A-54D8-4D47-96B8-02386712C006.jpeg


    11” 308 Win far right.

    78741504-BBEC-4E0A-B2CD-2793A01E4481.jpeg
     

    Graywolf.260

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    Regarding the original goal of the OP: a light, short barrel, low recoil hunting rifle good within 600 yards for antelope up to elk. The answer is a .308 with the wide choice of bullets/ammo appropriate to the task.
     

    PhilOX11

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    Regarding the original goal of the OP: a light, short barrel, low recoil hunting rifle good within 600 yards for antelope up to elk. The answer is a .308 with the wide choice of bullets/ammo appropriate to the task.
    I have run my Sig Cross 6.5CM, 18" barrel, through a chrono and it gives the following on Strelok Pro when zeroed at 175y using Winchester Deer 125g. That round is very accurate and matches Strelok Pro out to 350y which is as far as I have had chance to test it so far.
    At 300y - 2201 fps, 1345 ft/lbs & a drop of 9.5". At 600y - 1787 fps, 887 ft/lbs & a drop of 82".
    Not suggesting it is the answer to what he is looking for but at least he now has something to compare the rest to.
     
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    Glassaholic

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    Fact!

    It's a Surgeon 591r Form1 rifle with Carbon Bartlein 11" 308winchester. Found a sweet load with 155hybrids and haven't looked back. Nice and handy, annnnd heavy.
    How does it shoot with the Federal TRU T308T? I'm getting my cut down 14" LMT 308 barrel soon from D. Wilson...
     

    George F

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    I'm going to put together a super lightweight short action bolt gun for long distance trekking, and the barrel will be 14.5" p/w, 16" or, at the most, 16.5". Range will generally be within 300 yards, but opportunities for 600 yard shots on sheep are not uncommon. I would also like this to be a muley/elk gun, but the ranges on elk will obviously be closer. Will probably always be used with a can.

    Don't have as much time to handload as I used to, so factory ammo will be used, probably at least half of the time.

    There is a lot of discussion on here about short bbl 6.5 and creeds, and the 308 vs. 6.5 creed argument seems to never end. BUT, I am yet to see a good discussion pitting the .308 against the 6.5 creed with the caveat that the host barrel cannot exceed 16.5 inches.

    I know the 6.5 creed is most efficient out of a 24" barrel or longer, whereas the 308 is more efficient than the 6.5 creed in shorter 16"-18" barrels. Ballistically, when we are talking 14.5-16 inch barrels, my math says the 308 and 6.5 creed are pretty close, with the 308 winning on energy inside of 200-300 yards. Any input on this?

    Any other cartridge you would recommend? Not asking you to throw some wildcat in the ring here. I at least want to pick one that I can get decent amounts of hunting grade factory ammo for, and I want it short action for weight. Doesn't have to be 308 or 6.5 creed, but if handloading is a MUST for the cartridge, it's of no use to me right now.

    Thanks
    If you can’t or will not reload, you are handicapped right from the beginning by relegating yourself to mediocre ammo. 7mm08 or 308 would be my choice if Elk is on the menu also. With factory ammo you will never be able to use the best bullets to do the job you are contemplating, or get the best performance out of either caliber. 20” with or without a 5” suppressor would be my choice.
     

    Cletus Van Damme

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    Im guessing you’re either an Alaskan resident or you live near the unlimiteds in MT if shooting sheep is a regular thing for you.

    I have an 18” ultralight 308 that I’ve carried on sheep hunts up here in Alaska for several years. It’s not unusually to pack in many days before really getting into hunting for sheep. The 308 with a good load worked up is plenty to kill rams. I’ve used 6.5 creedmoor on mountain goats but not in a lightweight/short barreled platform, just a basic tikka t3x loaded with 140g accubonds.

    Neither of those rifles or cartridges would be my first choice for elk but either would work.
     

    Cletus Van Damme

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    If you can’t or will not reload, you are handicapped right from the beginning by relegating yourself to mediocre ammo. 7mm08 or 308 would be my choice if Elk is on the menu also. With factory ammo you will never be able to use the best bullets to do the job you are contemplating, or get the best performance out of either caliber. 20” with or without a 5” suppressor would be my choice.
    What do you consider the best bullets for 308? I’ve had outstanding results handloading the 165g accubond. 150g ttsx and a few different bullets from hammer.
     

    George F

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    What do you consider the best bullets for 308? I’ve had outstanding results handloading the 165g accubond. 150g ttsx and a few different bullets from hammer.
    All copper bullets, primarily. The ones with the highest BC and petal reliably at extended ranges (600+ yds) with high penetration (2.5+ ft) down to 1700 ft impact. There is a long discussion about improving 308Win performance on LRH which suggests that the SRP primer brass, Leverevolution powder, give the best performance. I personally have a wide variety of 30 cal bolt guns, 4-308s, 2-300 WSMs, and 2-300Normas. To be honest I prefer the 308s loaded with Badlands BD2s in 150 and 175 gr to hunt with. The SRP Lapua or Peterson 308 Win brass is by far the most efficient cartridge at delivering energy to the bullet in terms of ft-lbs/ grain of powder. From a 26” 1:10 long throated 308Win barrel I am able to push the 150 gr to 3150 and the 175 gr to 2900 fps at a 2.960 COAL safely. The PT&G bore rider is so far the best throat design I have tried. More than enough performance there to kill anything I want in North America and Africa save for an Elephant or Cape Buffalo with the copper bullets I mentioned. I am certain that there will be many on this site that would disagree, but my response is try that combo of components, then we will talk.
     
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    Cletus Van Damme

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    All copper bullets, primarily. The ones with the highest BC and petal reliably at extended ranges (600+ yds) with high penetration (2.5+ ft) down to 1700 ft impact. There is a long discussion about improving 308Win performance on LRH which suggests that the SRP primer brass, Leverevolution powder, give the best performance. I personally have a wide variety of 30 cal bolt guns, 4-308s, 2-300 WSMs, and 2-300Normas. To be honest I prefer the 308s loaded with Badlands BD2s in 150 and 175 gr to hunt with. The SRP Lapua or Peterson 308 Win brass is by far the most efficient cartridge at delivering energy to the bullet in terms of ft-lbs/ grain of powder. From a 26” 1:10 long throated 308Win barrel I am able to push the 150 gr to 3150 and the 175 gr to 2900 fps at a 2.960 COAL safely. The PT&G bore rider is so far the best throat design I have tried. More than enough performance there to kill anything I want in North America and Africa save for an Elephant or Cape Buffalo with the copper bullets I mentioned. I am certain that there will be many on this site that would disagree, but my response is try that combo of components, then we will talk.
    I’ve managed to get 2930fps out of my 18” 308 with the 137g hammer hunter bullet. Standard Peterson or ADG brass and h4895. I’ve taken sheep, caribou, blacktail deer and black bear with that combo.
     

    supercorndogs

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    Push your 308 over pressure to try to match the performance of the 6.5 Creed at 600+. 🤣🤣🤣

    This thread is like arguing vanilla vs chocolate. You want to get more speed out of a creed shoot a lighter bullet, just like a 308. Suddenly that ballistic advantage of the 308 shooting 168s {not heaver for caliber} vs a 6.5 Creed shooting 140g bullet {heaver for caliber} disappears if you start shooting 120g bullets.

    You can drive a 95g past 3300 and a 107 past 3100 while staying inside what Hodgdon lists and safe book loads with the 6.5 Creed.


    1675106884241.png
     
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    George F

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    I’ve managed to get 2930fps out of my 18” 308 with the 137g hammer hunter bullet. Standard Peterson or ADG brass and h4895. I’ve taken sheep, caribou, blacktail deer and black bear with that combo.
    That’s great. From my 20” I safely get 2950 fps using a 150 gr BD2 and LRP brass and LVR powder. Hunted all over the world with that combo. When things thaw out here I will try 51 gr LVR, Lapua Palma brass and the 150 BD2. Should expect 3000+ fps with a G1 BC of 515.
     

    Cletus Van Damme

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    That’s great. From my 20” I safely get 2950 fps using a 150 gr BD2 and LRP brass and LVR powder. Hunted all over the world with that combo. When things thaw out here I will try 51 gr LVR, Lapua Palma brass and the 150 BD2. Should expect 3000+ fps with a G1 BC of 515.
    Maybe I’ll give some SRP brass a try in the future. I’ve never really considered it before. Same with the hornady powders, just never really gave them much thought.
     

    George F

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    Maybe I’ll give some SRP brass a try in the future. I’ve never really considered it before. Same with the hornady powders, just never really gave them much thought.
    SRP brass in the 308 was developed for the express purpose of maximizing powder charge, specifically Varget. It’s primer pocket being of a smaller diameter can withstand more pressure before expanding and loosening primers. Been there done that with LRP brass in several calibers, 308 among them. I don’t think that shooters fully realize what the 308 Win is really capable of doing.
     

    Cletus Van Damme

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    SRP brass in the 308 was developed for the express purpose of maximizing powder charge, specifically Varget. It’s primer pocket being of a smaller diameter can withstand more pressure before expanding and loosening primers. Been there done that with LRP brass in several calibers, 308 among them. I don’t think that shooters fully realize what the 308 Win is really capable of doing.
    Interesting. I have about 200lbs of varget so I’ll definetly look for a bit of SRP 308 brass. Thanks for the info.
     

    George F

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    Interesting. I have about 200lbs of varget so I’ll definetly look for a bit of SRP 308 brass. Thanks for the info.
    Let us know what you think. Also you might try contacting John Pierce from Pierce Engineering. He used to shoot F-class and used to stuff as much Varget as he could into 308 cases. Also, leverevolution works well in 308Win and runs well up to 85-90F ambient temp. Would not leave the ammo in the sun though.

    SRP brass in 308Win may be scarce but Peterson makes it for the 260 Rem so necking up that brass is definitely feasable. You can get it at Graf&Sons
     

    Graywolf.260

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    I just started loading the 150 BD2, the BC blows away hammer or Barnes bullets. First conservative load I tried with LVR (47 gr) Im getting 2921 fps in a 20” Tikka. Unfortunately there wont be any more Lapua 308 SRP for a while, probably because the German army realized it might be a good idea to have more than 2 days worth of ammunition in the event a ground war starts in Europe.
     

    George F

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    I just started loading the 150 BD2, the BC blows away hammer or Barnes bullets. First conservative load I tried with LVR (47 gr) Im getting 2921 fps in a 20” Tikka. Unfortunately there wont be any more Lapua 308 SRP for a while, probably because the German army realized it might be a good idea to have more than 2 days worth of ammunition in the event a ground war starts in Europe.
    Two comments. First, the Germans are waking up to the fact that Russia could actually do to them what they did to the Russians in the summer of 1941. My second comment is that there is good news. First of all the 47 gr LVR load you specified is very doable and safe in LRP brass. In fact I have used an almost identical load shot from 20” barrels for years in LRP brass with no pressure issues. The other bit of good news is that Peterson makes SRP brass in 260 Rem, a 308 derivative. Last I saw it was available at Graf&Sons a few days ago. You could expand the neck using the .308 expander in your sizing die. If you want to try that I can help you with that if you wish. Get some graphite powder from the hardware store and Q-tips to lube the necks.
     
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