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.308 Winchester

308 case capacity ?
Some tome ago, years in face a member posted a lot of data on different 308 case capacities . Does anyone remember this . maybe have a link to the site or the person that did the chart ?
 
No links to the charts but the brass I have weighted...

After small base sizing to sammi and triming to 2.005, and using a backwards primer.

Black hills brass has the most water capacity of any brass .308 I have used. Around 56 grains of water. Brass weight in the high 150’s grains. I think this is on par with the old Winchester brass in reloading data.
EE2F74A7-B6C6-4930-B704-CB62F7E69162.jpeg

Older Hornady Match was around 56 too, in h20 weight. Weights in the high 150’s very similar to the Black Hills.
BD72BAFC-DE78-4ED0-9D8B-FD416B3275BB.jpeg


When people talk about the large commercial 308 brass, this is an example of it

Modern Hornady was around 54.4 in H2O. Weights in the 170’s

Federal GMM is around 54 grains H2O. Brass weights around 177.

Lc is around 53.5 h20weight around 180.

Imi is in the low high 52 grain some low 53’s and weight around 180’s too.

Generally heavier brass has less capacity.
 
I have 80 or so pieces of PMC Bronze .308

I would have to go fire up the scale to give you the exact numbers, but IIRC it was heavier than my LC brass. There were a few outliers but the weight was surprisingly consistent for as cheap as the ammo was.

Mike

ETA: I actually went and checked. The PMC I checked was 178 and tenths. My LC 07 was 173 and tenths... I checked the LC H2O capacity a few years back, don't remember what I averaged, but Juan's numbers sound about right. Haven't bothered checking the PMC yet.
 
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No links to the charts but the brass I have weighted...

After small base sizing to sammi and triming to 2.005, and using a backwards primer.

Black hills brass has the most water capacity of any brass .308 I have used. Around 56 grains of water. Brass weight in the high 150’s grains. I think this is on par with the old Winchester brass in reloading data.
View attachment 8033253
Older Hornady Match was around 56 too, in h20 weight. Weights in the high 150’s very similar to the Black Hills.
View attachment 8033252

When people talk about the large commercial 308 brass, this is an example of it

Modern Hornady was around 54.4 in H2O. Weights in the 170’s

Federal GMM is around 54 grains H2O. Brass weights around 177.

Lc is around 53.5 h20weight around 180.

Imi is in the low high 52 grain some low 53’s and weight around 180’s too.

Generally heavier brass has less capacity.

Looks to me like these case volumes are based on virgin or sized cases rather than fired case, huh?
 
Looks to me like these case volumes are based on virgin or sized cases rather than fired case, huh?
Correct, resized(small based/rcbs) and trimmed.

Obviously its going to expand on firing.

Being as there many different chamber specs and some of it was fired out of different chambers, I figured resizing(edit- with the same die, to the same x) was the best way to show the differences between them.

None of it virgin.
 
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While the capacity between fired and FL resized cases may be small , the only way capacity of a fired case is relevant is if the cases are only neck sized , and all are shot in the same weapon.
For a general comparison of over 30 cases as best I remember were in the chart , then probably they were all unsized.
 
Correct, resized(small based/rcbs) and trimmed.

Obviously its going to expand on firing.

Being as there many different chamber specs and some of it was fired out of different chambers, I figured resizing(edit- with the same die, to the same x) was the best way to show the differences between them.

None of it virgin.
Yeah, that's a very good way for comparing and showing the differences.

Just to be clear for those who are not familiar with internal ballistic calculations, it's the volume of a fire case that's important to measure . . . particularly in relationship to each specific chamber.

And one should take note that case volumes from the same manufacturer can be significantly different from lot to lot; where one may need to adjust their load formula to maintain their expected performance.
 
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I would have better luck finding a hen's tooth in a pile of four leaf clovers than finding Winchester brass right now.

Mike
 
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No links to the charts but the brass I have weighted...

After small base sizing to sammi and triming to 2.005, and using a backwards primer.

Black hills brass has the most water capacity of any brass .308 I have used. Around 56 grains of water. Brass weight in the high 150’s grains. I think this is on par with the old Winchester brass in reloading data.
View attachment 8033253
Older Hornady Match was around 56 too, in h20 weight. Weights in the high 150’s very similar to the Black Hills.
View attachment 8033252

When people talk about the large commercial 308 brass, this is an example of it

Modern Hornady was around 54.4 in H2O. Weights in the 170’s

Federal GMM is around 54 grains H2O. Brass weights around 177.

Lc is around 53.5 h20weight around 180.

Imi is in the low high 52 grain some low 53’s and weight around 180’s too.

Generally heavier brass has less capacity.
Guess who made Black hill match brass ……..Winchester!
 
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Used the Small Rifle primer years ago when Remington had their BR brass. Not impressed then with small rifle primer and returned back to normal large rifle primers.
 
Used the Small Rifle primer years ago when Remington had their BR brass. Not impressed then with small rifle primer and returned back to normal large rifle primers.
can't comment on the Rem BR brass, and not sure how much different this brass is, but it does have a larger flash hole than most SRP brass.
They also have LRP .308, it just isn't available.
 
In my limited experience, I've get a little better performance out of my .308 SRP brass than I do with the same load using LRP's (both are Lapua brass being very very close to the same case volumes). Velocities are about the same, but it's the consistency (SD's) of my SRP cartridges with AR-Comp powder I'm referring to as "better performance".
 
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Guess who made Black hill match brass ……..Winchester!
FDD35AC6-C50C-4A7B-A801-400005CCD121.jpeg


It’s hard to see, have not cleaned the black hills but the Winchester is the piece on the left and Black Hills is a piece on the right. Winchester has a recess on the inside around the flash hole and the Black Hills is completely flat. Visually there is some difference.

They weigh about the same. 157 grains.
 
Guys
I have a 700P that I'm considering rebarreling via the Remage route.
The rifle will only be fired from a bench rest @ 200Y going fwd. I'm looking for suggestions on length and twist.
It's in a chassis now so I have no problem with weight via a thick contour.
Thank You.
 
Guys
I have a 700P that I'm considering rebarreling via the Remage route.
The rifle will only be fired from a bench rest @ 200Y going fwd. I'm looking for suggestions on length and twist.
It's in a chassis now so I have no problem with weight via a thick contour.
Thank You.

Just from a bench then I would just get a 10 or 11 twist, as both will work with most any bullet used in a .308, and I would go 24-26". Shorter will work for only 200 yards also but better to plan on possibly going longer later down the road. 24" would be a good all around. As for contour that's up to you as to the weight you want. You can go lighter with a med palma or heavier with a M24 or even heavier with an MTU or Heavy Varmint.
 
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Guys
I have a 700P that I'm considering rebarreling via the Remage route.
The rifle will only be fired from a bench rest @ 200Y going fwd. I'm looking for suggestions on length and twist.
It's in a chassis now so I have no problem with weight via a thick contour.
Thank You.
The twist all depends on the length [not weight] of the bullet you intend to shoot. Search the new bench rest records , the 30 Cal. shooters are using custom bullets in the 110-115 gn. range and using a 1-13 to 1-14 twist.
When Rem. was owned by Remington, they made and used two twists in their 308's , a 1-10 for their "hunting rifles" and a 1-12 for their more "specialty use" like law enforcement and competition use.
Who ever you get your Remage bbl. from. ask for a print of the reamer they use. Some may come with as much as a .5" jump to the riflings.
 
The twist all depends on the length [not weight] of the bullet you intend to shoot. Search the new bench rest records , the 30 Cal. shooters are using custom bullets in the 110-115 gn. range and using a 1-13 to 1-14 twist.
When Rem. was owned by Remington, they made and used two twists in their 308's , a 1-10 for their "hunting rifles" and a 1-12 for their more "specialty use" like law enforcement and competition use.
Who ever you get your Remage bbl. from. ask for a print of the reamer they use. Some may come with as much as a .5" jump to the riflings.

.5" jump? LOL Would not get a custom barrel with a half inch jump.

And everyone knows it's length not weight but when looking at the weights and lengths of the .308 long range bullets they all can be grouped in pretty easy in 10-11 twist. I wouldn't go slower than 11 as there is no advantage.
 
.5" jump? LOL Would not get a custom barrel with a half inch jump.
That is why I suggested he ask for a copy of the reamer they use. Some that offer barrels have the attitude "I know what is best for you" so you don't need to bother with such thinks.!
One company offers 4 different reamers based on the intended use.
All I'm suggesting is that he educate himself on his intended use asking bullet makers, and record holders.
 
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It was a joke as I have never seen or heard of any .308 being offered in a half inch lead. No one would make it that long and pretty much any .308 match chamber would work for what he wants and needs. He really doesn't need to jump down a crazy rabbit hole for this. Most .308 match chambers would work fine unless he plans to shoot 220+ weight bullets.
 
Okay all you reloading whizz bangs I gotta problem with a .308 load!
Here’s my data I used, right from Lee’s Modern Reloading 2nd edition page 532 115 Grain jacketed bullet;
115 gr Nosler bullet BT
45 grains of Accu-2200
CCI LRP
COL= 2.700
Brass-Winchester Alpha NEW!
Shooting gun-.308 semi automatic Smith/Wesson model M&P-10
Loaded with lee Classic turret press , .308 dies, crimped
At range-blew out the primers, fired only 3, jammed rifle due to blasted out primer!! Cleared everything, bought a box of 7.62x51 147 grain Winchester ammo, loaded-up a Mag, gun shot fine, but not to sure about the shooter!!! What the hell went sideways!! Looking for a answer!
Thanks
Pics:
AB7223CA-9D52-4CA4-9FDC-10BC3F5DADB0.jpeg
3799F236-C0B8-4F18-A4EE-6D134D514997.jpeg
9E6C1BAF-C34D-47C9-9B27-D9488C8EE47B.jpeg
 
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Your brass is showing signs of over pressure. I see Hogdon's sight shows 47.7 grains as max load in a bolt gun 61K psi pressure. I didnt see a load for service rifle there using a 115 grain bullet so I can't comment on your 45 grain load. It does look to me that you have a very heavy crimp on your loads which would contribute to driving pressures up. 43 grains is showing 55K psi pressure which would probably be max for your AR10. If it was me, I'd start at 41 grains and work my way up to 43 while easing up on the crimp a bit.
 
Your brass is showing signs of over pressure. I see Hogdon's sight shows 47.7 grains as max load in a bolt gun 61K psi pressure. I didnt see a load for service rifle there using a 115 grain bullet so I can't comment on your 45 grain load. It does look to me that you have a very heavy crimp on your loads which would contribute to driving pressures up. 43 grains is showing 55K psi pressure which would probably be max for your AR10. If it was me, I'd start at 41 grains and work my way up to 43 while easing up on the crimp a bit.
Yes, I was looking at the crimp too! And yes, 41 grains with a light crimp looks good.
Thanks, much appreciated.
 
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Okay all you reloading whizz bangs I gotta problem with a .308 load!
Here’s my data I used, right from Lee’s Modern Reloading 2nd edition page 532 115 Grain jacketed bullet;
115 gr Nosler bullet BT
45 grains of Accu-2200
CCI LRP
COL= 2.700
Brass-Winchester Alpha NEW!
Shooting gun-.308 semi automatic Smith/Wesson model M&P-10
Loaded with lee Classic turret press , .308 dies, crimped
At range-blew out the primers, fired only 3, jammed rifle due to blasted out primer!! Cleared everything, bought a box of 7.62x51 147 grain Winchester ammo, loaded-up a Mag, gun shot fine, but not to sure about the shooter!!! What the hell went sideways!! Looking for a answer!
Thanks
Pics:
View attachment 8051164View attachment 8051166View attachment 8051163
The brass definitely looks like you're way over pressure. The first thing that come to my mind is, did you measure case volumes for that brass? I ask because I've heard that the Alpha brass tends to have walls that are somewhat thick, which reduces the case volume. And with the amount of powder charge you're using, that could really boost the pressure up. In addition, the crimping could add to it depending on how much crimp you're using. With a fast burning powder like Accu 2200 at 45 grs, it just looks to me like too much powder charge.
 
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2200 is one of Accurate's faster powders for .308 Win. It's fine for what you're doing but it can get away from you if you try to push it.

Accurate also tests their .308 loads with Winchester brass, which is about as "roomy" as you can get with case capacity. I'm betting your Alpha brass has less capacity. It has a reputation as being good tough brass... The trade off is that you give up a bit of case capacity.

Toss a fast powder in a tight case, crimp the daylights out of it, and throw it in a gas gun... You can run in to trouble doing that. I know from experience.

Back off to the minimum and start again. Lighten up a hair on the crimp. And look carefully for pressure signs as you move up in charge weights.

Just out of curiosity, which primers did you use... CCI 200?

Mike
 
Guys
I have a 700P that I'm considering rebarreling via the Remage route.
The rifle will only be fired from a bench rest @ 200Y going fwd. I'm looking for suggestions on length and twist.
It's in a chassis now so I have no problem with weight via a thick contour.
Thank You.

I sent my R700 action to Patriot Valley Arms and he installed one of his M24 barrels in 24" 1:9 for me. It came back and went in a McMillan A1 stock. I can't reccomend PVA highly enough. I like my bolt rifle barrels how I like my wife's booty.......THHIIICCCC. *edit. I have an 24" M24 barrrel on one rifle and a 24" MTU contour barrel on another. Both shoot sub MOA with ease. Length is entirely personal for desired application. I believe a 24" barrel works well for most all types.

My $ 00.02 :)
 
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The twist all depends on the length [not weight] of the bullet you intend to shoot. Search the new bench rest records , the 30 Cal. shooters are using custom bullets in the 110-115 gn. range and using a 1-13 to 1-14 twist.
When Rem. was owned by Remington, they made and used two twists in their 308's , a 1-10 for their "hunting rifles" and a 1-12 for their more "specialty use" like law enforcement and competition use.
Who ever you get your Remage bbl. from. ask for a print of the reamer they use. Some may come with as much as a .5" jump to the riflings.
Thanks 4 the tip on the print.
Me thinks lighter is better @ 200Y. Are flat base even a thing @ light (target) weights on 308?
Heading to bergers page as soon as I post this.
 
The brass definitely looks like you're way over pressure. The first thing that come to my mind is, did you measure case volumes for that brass? I ask because I've heard that the Alpha brass tends to have walls that are somewhat thick, which reduces the case volume. And with the amount of powder charge you're using, that could really boost the pressure up. In addition, the crimping could add to it depending on how much crimp you're using. With a fast burning powder like Accu 2200 at 45 grs, it just looks to me like too much powder charge.
Your correct, I thought about that too, Looked, and Nosler doesn’t make a 115 grain BT, but they DO make a 150 grain BT, and when I pulled the bullets on a few, weighed them, BINGO!!, 150 grain!!!
Starting load is 37.1 grains of Accur 2200, Max is 41.2 grains for a 150 grain jacketed bullet. I had 45 grains of 2200 in the case with too much crimp. Pulling all, redoing..
Thanks 🙏🏻
 
2200 is one of Accurate's faster powders for .308 Win. It's fine for what you're doing but it can get away from you if you try to push it.

Accurate also tests their .308 loads with Winchester brass, which is about as "roomy" as you can get with case capacity. I'm betting your Alpha brass has less capacity. It has a reputation as being good tough brass... The trade off is that you give up a bit of case capacity.

Toss a fast powder in a tight case, crimp the daylights out of it, and throw it in a gas gun... You can run in to trouble doing that. I know from experience.

Back off to the minimum and start again. Lighten up a hair on the crimp. And look carefully for pressure signs as you move up in charge weights.

Just out of curiosity, which primers did you use... CCI 200?

Mike
Your correct, I thought about that too, Looked, and Nosler doesn’t make a 115 grain BT, but they DO make a 150 grain BT, and when I pulled the bullets on a few, weighed them, BINGO!!, 150 grain!!!
Starting load is 37.1 grains of Accur 2200, Max is 41.2 grains for a 150 grain jacketed bullet. I had 45 grains of 2200 in the case with too much crimp. Pulling all, redoing..
Thanks 🙏🏻
 
Thanks 4 the tip on the print.
Me thinks lighter is better @ 200Y. Are flat base even a thing @ light (target) weights on 308?
Heading to bergers page as soon as I post this.
Most Light 30 cal bullets in benchrest are being used in 30 BRs , not 308 Winchester . They will work in .308 Winchester , I use them at reduced speeds and they work quite well for what I am doing .
 
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I’ve got a Savage 110 Elite Precision that shoots everything I throw at it pretty good. Decided to try some 200gr ELD-X’s, because why not. Loaded from 40 to 41.6 in .4’s. Never made it to 41.6 as 41.2 showed some ejector marks and 40.8 had already shot well. So I decided not to push it. No velocity readings and only 3 shot groups. Loading up 20 rounds at 40.8 right now for confirmation and velocity this weekend. Shot thru a YHM Resonator K and recoil was stout. Rest of the info is on the cards.


vveuz1.jpg
 
Reloading some ELD-X w/ 41gr of IMR- 4064 in .308. My lands are at 2.760. I have a lot of crunching going on which tells me it compressed. I want to be .020 of the lands. I can’t even reach 2.760! Any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks
 
What are you wanting to do with the 178 ElD-X ? hunt or LR paper punching ?
Is the 2.760 "AOL or base to ogive ? and what rifle is that in ?
 
Reloading some ELD-X w/ 41gr of IMR- 4064 in .308. My lands are at 2.760. I have a lot of crunching going on which tells me it compressed. I want to be .020 of the lands. I can’t even reach 2.760! Any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks
That distance to the lands doesn't tell us much since various chambers have various freebore sizes in addition to variances in comparators. Though COAL's have variance, at least when that's stated (with the bullet weight too) it can give us all a better idea of what you're cartridges are seated like compared to our own chambers.

In my current Krieger .308 barrel, my distance to the lands is 2.274" for 169 SMK's (OAL=1.301") and I've loaded the cartridges to a CBTO of 2.261, which is .013 off the lands (COAL=2.957). That COAL barely fits in my non factory magazines. ;) And I'd have to be filling the case up into the neck to start crunching any powder. These measurements are using a Hornady comparator insert where using my Sinclair comparator insert the measurement is .052" less because of the difference in the comparator's diameter.

You should easily be able to load .020 off the lands with plenty of room for 41gr of IMR-4064. So, what you're saying is perplexing and suggesting maybe something going on with the seating measurement???🤷‍♂️
 
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That distance to the lands doesn't tell us much since various chambers have various freebore sizes in addition to variances in comparators. Though COAL's have variance, at least when that's stated (with the bullet weight too) it can give us all a better idea of what you're cartridges are seated like compared to our own chambers.

In my current Krieger .308 barrel, my distance to the lands is 2.274" for 169 SMK's (OAL=1.301") and I've loaded the cartridges to a CBTO of 2.261, which is .013 off the lands (COAL=2.957). That COAL barely fits in my non factory magazines. ;) And I'd have to be filling the case up into the neck to start crunching any powder. These measurements are using a Hornady comparator insert where using my Sinclair comparator insert the measurement is .052" less because of the difference in the comparator's diameter.

You should easily be able to load .020 off the lands with plenty of room for 41gr of IMR-4064. So, what you're saying is perplexing and suggesting maybe something going on with the seating measurement???🤷‍♂️
Thanks for all the good info. My rifle is a savage 110 tactical. 2.760 to the lands. I’m going to start over but the eld-x in 200gr is very long.
 
Is that OAL from base to tip of bullet or from base to ogive subtracting your gauge? If the first then it's one of the well known Savage short throats and I would contact Savage and have them fix it.
 
Is that OAL from base to tip of bullet or from base to ogive subtracting your gauge? If the first then it's one of the well known Savage short throats and I would contact Savage and have them fix it.

@R.STOCKFISCH any answer for above?
 
Thanks for all the good info. My rifle is a savage 110 tactical. 2.760 to the lands. I’m going to start over but the eld-x in 200gr is very long.
I just loaded 200gr eld x’ s into a savage 110. See the previous page. My cartridge that is 2.24” base to ogive is 2.897” in total cartridge length. I am trying to figure out, as are others, what your 2.76 represents. I would love to help you, but just need to know what the 2.76 is. And yes, these bullets are very long. It is pushed down way past the neck/shoulder junction. For me, and my rifle, it does not hurt a thing.
 
I just loaded 200gr eld x’ s into a savage 110. See the previous page. My cartridge that is 2.24” base to ogive is 2.897” in total cartridge length. I am trying to figure out, as are others, what your 2.76 represents. I would love to help you, but just need to know what the 2.76 is. And yes, these bullets are very long. It is pushed down way past the neck/shoulder junction. For me, and my rifle, it does not hurt a thing.
What comparator insert are you using? Looks like it might be like my Sinclair one.

With a 2.24" CBTO, how far from your lands is that?

That COAL of 2.897 looks like a seating depth of .610, pretty far down alright, and 41.0 grs of IMR-4064 would be ~101.5% of useable case capacity . . . meaning there's a little compressing of the powder (unless you're using Winchester brass).
 
What comparator insert are you using? Looks like it might be like my Sinclair one.

With a 2.24" CBTO, how far from your lands is that?

That COAL of 2.897 looks like a seating depth of .610, pretty far down alright, and 41.0 grs of IMR-4064 would be ~101.5% of useable case capacity . . . meaning there's a little compressing of the powder (unless you're using Winchester brass).
Using a Hornady comparator set. Here is a couple pics of what the depth is. Let me know if you have any other questions. The lands are at 2.255 with this bullet. And the powder is 748. Almost forgot, it’s a Federal Gold Medal Match piece of brass.

mhsmv8.jpg


4huha2.jpg
 
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Using a Hornady comparator set. Here is a couple pics of what the depth is. Let me know if you have any other questions. The lands are at 2.255 with this bullet. And the powder is 748. Almost forgot, it’s a Federal Gold Medal Match piece of brass.

mhsmv8.jpg


4huha2.jpg
Thanks. I think R.STOCKFISCH might find that info helpful. And here's some more info for him and you that might be found helpful:

Hornady 200 gr ELD-X.jpg
Hornady 200gr ELD-X.jpg


Hogdon's burn rate chart 2023.jpg
 
Still interested in knowing what the reasoning is behind loading the 200 ELD X in the 308 ?
Is it trying to use the .597 G-1 BC ?
 
Still interested in knowing what the reasoning is behind loading the 200 ELD X in the 308 ?
Is it trying to use the .597 G-1 BC ?
I’ve got a Savage 110 Elite Precision that shoots everything I throw at it pretty good. Decided to try some 200gr ELD-X’s, because why not. Loaded from 40 to 41.6 in .4’s. Never made it to 41.6 as 41.2 showed some ejector marks and 40.8 had already shot well. So I decided not to push it. No velocity readings and only 3 shot groups. Loading up 20 rounds at 40.8 right now for confirmation and velocity this weekend. Shot thru a YHM Resonator K and recoil was stout. Rest of the info is on the cards.


vveuz1.jpg
 
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