My point being that good results are possible even with these powders you claim "don't meter well"
So I'll ask differently then, what issues does not metering well cause?
.308 Winchester
- Thread starter Two Shoes
- Start date
So I'll ask differently then, what issues does not metering well cause?
OK, I'll bite. Ball powder meters from a powder measure very well. In my experience around +- 0.2gr. Extruded powder does not. It drops from a powder measure around +- 0.5gr if I am really careful.
I only have limited experience with Varget, N140 and a local powder using a Lee Perfect Powder Measure, a Lyman powder dropper, a Lee drum measure and a Lee Autodisk measure. So make of my statement what you will.
I only have limited experience with Varget, N140 and a local powder using a Lee Perfect Powder Measure, a Lyman powder dropper, a Lee drum measure and a Lee Autodisk measure. So make of my statement what you will.
I've been using an RCBS Chargemaster to throw charges with extruded powders and verifying on an FX120 for 5 years. It's always within .1 to .15
I use stick powders for all my match loadings....I just use the RCBS master whatever powder trickler, it's the electronic one that comes with a scale that's pretty good and throws out a lot of power fast until it gets to a few grains from the target then slows way down, to a little bump here and there until it gets to the target. Rarely but every once in a while it will under or overcharge by .1 grains, but it indicates it if you actually look and don't just grab the powder with the beep and pour it into the case. maybe 1 out of 15ish... but I got a much older model, newer ones may be even better. I'll have to look back at when I tried Win748 best I recall it was "okay" and it's what I use for my M193 5.56 loadings but, I stuck to Varget for .308 in my CZ 600 Range (24" barrel, using M118 brass)
I don't think Win748 will ever be able to equal something like Varget I don't care the primer, brass, rifle, etc. I got down to 6fps SD's with Varget and some case mouth lube, that's not happening with Win 748. You also have a LONG barrel for .308 though and that may help smooth out things more though.
I run an RCBS charge master.
Varget, this that all of it.
It pretty much stays within 1/2 to 1 tenth grain as a result from two other electronic scales and one balance beam I checked it with.
I can off a bench with heavy bags shoot and print the difference between 0.1g in several rifles.
Disclaimer: no adverse environmental, short range for development porposes.
You can run a ceiling fan on low only, helps mix air. But you can not have temperature changes of any kind especially an air conditioning duct cycling on and off as the cold air drops strait down as it shuts off.
I also run some ammo in a dillon and use their powder dispenser. It runs + / - 0.1g all day everyday till you start acting stupid.
Many products will repeat as long as they are ran consistently.
It's normally operater error.
I had an exception that was a Hornady dispenser. I took it outside and beat it to a pulp with a 4 foot long piece of drill stem, problem solved.
Varget, this that all of it.
It pretty much stays within 1/2 to 1 tenth grain as a result from two other electronic scales and one balance beam I checked it with.
I can off a bench with heavy bags shoot and print the difference between 0.1g in several rifles.
Disclaimer: no adverse environmental, short range for development porposes.
You can run a ceiling fan on low only, helps mix air. But you can not have temperature changes of any kind especially an air conditioning duct cycling on and off as the cold air drops strait down as it shuts off.
I also run some ammo in a dillon and use their powder dispenser. It runs + / - 0.1g all day everyday till you start acting stupid.
Many products will repeat as long as they are ran consistently.
It's normally operater error.
I had an exception that was a Hornady dispenser. I took it outside and beat it to a pulp with a 4 foot long piece of drill stem, problem solved.
Can't speak to the eld-vt, been wanting to try them. I know the 175 TMK is money at 1000.
Nope. Originally wanted to try 215 Bergers with a Wyatt box to run a longer OAL but I must have gotten an early production BAT Bumblebee action because it would not fit. Turns out, even after I sent dummy rds to JGS with the 215 where I wanted it, the OAL was coming back too long and wouldn't have worked anyway. Ended up with Hawkins hunter bottom metal and can run up to a 2.950 OAL in the mag. If I remember correctly the free bore is .114.
Played with multiple bullets through the years with many different .308's and never saw the raw accuracy, consistency and ease of tuning as the 185 Jugg. I'm still messing around with the 215 Berger, but single feed. So far N550 has produced the best velocity and I will shoot the 185 and 215 side by side at 1K to see which one does better.
Played with multiple bullets through the years with many different .308's and never saw the raw accuracy, consistency and ease of tuning as the 185 Jugg. I'm still messing around with the 215 Berger, but single feed. So far N550 has produced the best velocity and I will shoot the 185 and 215 side by side at 1K to see which one does better.
Im wanting to use a factory 308 barrel, mag fed. I could add some freebore to it, with the proper tools
Glad I'm not the only one who does that.
Although I typically use an 8 lb sledge on an elm stump. It helps guarantee that one POS tool won't make it back into rotation.Mike
I like their ELD-VT, their ELD-M didn't shoot very well for me, but forwhatever reason, the VT shoots well. And my rifle LOOOVES their A-tips.... pricey but it shoots the tightest group with them of everything I have tried. Which would be ELD-M, ELD-VT, (The A-tip) Berger Juggernauts, SMK 168, SMK 169 and SMK 175gr. If memory serves it goes A-tip > SMK175 > ELD-VT > SMK 169 > SMK 168 > Berger Juggernaut > ELD-M.
Not Hornady's factory ammo can stay on the shelves, worst crap I have shot that's a "match" load especially for the price, but SOME of their projectiles shoot for me.... The VT's and SMK175's are close to one another in grouping, both well under 1", as in 175 SMK shooting 5/8" 5 shot groups on average, and the VT's between that and 3/4"... the A-tips though oh boy... 3/8" groups. Sucks that they basically have no terminal effect though :/ I mean a .308 is still a .308 caliber projectile moving however fast it's moving when it hits whatever it hits but.... I sure wouldn't use it for hunting. Every gel test I have seen it just zips right through making a straight pin hole track without even tumbling.
Yall are silly, use it for a target.Glad I'm not the only one who does that.
Mike
I sure as hell wanted it to work in my CZ 600 Range, but it's one of the poorer shooters for me.
I may have to try them again, now that I'm painting the graphite into the case necks as I saw that make a BIG difference in my groups. Like went from 3/4" and 10-12fps SD's to 3/8" groups and 6fps SD's. ( for the A-tips.... ah hell now I should try them all over again)What powder and primer?I sure as hell wanted it to work in my CZ 600 Range, but it's one of the poorer shooters for me.
Varget powder and CCi 200 primers, I bought a case of the CCi primers when I found them as they were hard to find any at the time, so that’s what I’m running until they are used up or what’s sup to be better becomes available at a price I can’t ignore.
I use a RCBS Chargemaster with a 2nd scale to re-measure each charge. Example... I'll throw a 42.0g charge and re-measure on the 2nnd scale and it will read from 41.8 to 42.5 when I use any stick powder.... It takes forever to load 50rnds. With the ball, I'll get 5-6 charges that are NOT right on the mark when I measure the second time. The ES will be single digit using ball powder vs double digit with stick powder. I'll stick to ball powder.... I intend to try both BL-C2 and Staball Match in this new .308 I'm building.
That's too bad you're seeing that much inconsistency, I can assure you that's not the norm. I throw with the same Chargemaster and if it says 42.0 grs, then my FX120 will read no worse than 41.9-42.1 on a bad day. And at that point I'll grab a pair of tweezers and remove or add a couple kernels to get it close enough. I'm not in this for volume and I don't like double digit velocity spreads either but in the real world of shooting a .308 at 1K or more there will be far more to worry about then the difference between ball vs stick powders.
@Mean_Man
@straightshooter1
I appreciate you guys helping me and giving me tips from this range session below when I last went shooting.
I think someone had asked about my COAL. I'm back home from work for the weekend and if anyone is still interested, that was right at 2.860" ± .004. I'm sure there's some variance there as I seat all my bullets based off my ogive measurement.
For anyone else reading this, don't take my COAL and load recipes to use in your gun. Take your own measurements and make sure you're not jammed into the lands from the get go. Also, start low and work up.
@straightshooter1
I appreciate you guys helping me and giving me tips from this range session below when I last went shooting.
I think someone had asked about my COAL. I'm back home from work for the weekend and if anyone is still interested, that was right at 2.860" ± .004. I'm sure there's some variance there as I seat all my bullets based off my ogive measurement.
For anyone else reading this, don't take my COAL and load recipes to use in your gun. Take your own measurements and make sure you're not jammed into the lands from the get go. Also, start low and work up.
It was I who asked about you COAL, and thanks. That helps me see pretty close as to what you're cartridge configuration is. As I mentioned before, it looks like you might have ~1 gr more to work with, which could still bring you over the SAAMI max depending on the temperatures you're operating within. I appears like 40.0 grs of Varget might be the load to look at, though you'll need to do a verification test to see if it's actually repeatable. Note too, that .5 grs spreads between loads it really too much where you can easily skip over a good "node" .3 grs works much better for a cartridge the size of a .308.
Wile Varget is a great powder for the .308, the 185 jugs are not the best match (IMHO). If you're able to find some H4895, you should try it. I think you'll find it a better powder for the Jugs.
For just an FYI to help give you some idea what your Varget might produce given the data you've shared, you might find this chart helpful as you do your load development:
If it works for you to jam into the lands, then go for it. But personally I don't like doing that just due to a higher pressure spike for the same amount of powder vs some jump, even if a little. If having a little jump still shoots as well or ALMOST as well, but allows you to bump up the powder charge, you may be leaving velocity on the table with minimal to no real accuracy loss. I'd try it out just to see.
Also, don't give me to much credit, I'm far from some sort of expert, there's plenty of people on here that know far more than I. I'd call myself an armature.
Do you have or know how to use Gordon's Reloading Tool? If you know all your measurements you can put all that into the program and get a model that's fairly good. You can then look at things like the difference in peak pressure between jammed and say .005" jump to see an estimate of how much that effects peak pressure.
You'll need to know things like your case H20 capacity as well though, it's almost crazy all that data you can input to get a decent model from that free software. I used it to help do sanity checks while I was developing a 9x19 sabot load using 3Dprinted nylon sabots.... off topic but I got 2,417fps from a 41gr solid copper .250" projectile fired from a G17L.
You'll need to know things like your case H20 capacity as well though, it's almost crazy all that data you can input to get a decent model from that free software. I used it to help do sanity checks while I was developing a 9x19 sabot load using 3Dprinted nylon sabots.... off topic but I got 2,417fps from a 41gr solid copper .250" projectile fired from a G17L.
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I did an extremely lazy load development for my 308, ended up loading:
44.0gr of Varget, 168gr ELD-Ms, .020 off lands, WRE LR primers, sellier bellot brass.
Over 55rounds my ES/SD looks like 50/13fps, getting 2499fps (average) from a 16" barrel.
Groups at 100y & 300y look pretty good but at 500y & 600y I'm getting a lot more vertical dispersion that I'd like.
If I wanted to bring this down what should I do?
-tune powder
-tune seating depth
-different projectile (might be at edge of stability)
-better brass
-better dies (FL Hornady dies, but thinking bushing dies)
I'm a little worried the 168 ELDs are on edge of stability at distance (Berger calculator would suggest this), so a different projectile could be worth trying.
Of course could try turning my load (seating depth and/or powder) and could try for a bit more velocity, don't want to change from Varget if I can help it.
My guess is my brass isn't great so should start there, and invest in better dies. No point in speeding time and money on a bunch of different tests if my brass isn't very consistent. But at same time a 50fps ES probably isn't all down to the brass.
Shooting on some electronic targets i some decent wind I'm happy with .7moa vertical at 300y, but 1.8moa of vertical at 600y isn't great.
300y
600y
44.0gr of Varget, 168gr ELD-Ms, .020 off lands, WRE LR primers, sellier bellot brass.
Over 55rounds my ES/SD looks like 50/13fps, getting 2499fps (average) from a 16" barrel.
Groups at 100y & 300y look pretty good but at 500y & 600y I'm getting a lot more vertical dispersion that I'd like.
If I wanted to bring this down what should I do?
-tune powder
-tune seating depth
-different projectile (might be at edge of stability)
-better brass
-better dies (FL Hornady dies, but thinking bushing dies)
I'm a little worried the 168 ELDs are on edge of stability at distance (Berger calculator would suggest this), so a different projectile could be worth trying.
Of course could try turning my load (seating depth and/or powder) and could try for a bit more velocity, don't want to change from Varget if I can help it.
My guess is my brass isn't great so should start there, and invest in better dies. No point in speeding time and money on a bunch of different tests if my brass isn't very consistent. But at same time a 50fps ES probably isn't all down to the brass.
Shooting on some electronic targets i some decent wind I'm happy with .7moa vertical at 300y, but 1.8moa of vertical at 600y isn't great.
300y
600y
Attachments
Get better brass. Your es/sd are high for hand loads. Make sure you are accurate with your powder charge also.
The bullet is not the issue as it is still accurate going transonic. The .020” is a good place for it.
That's the answer I wanted to hear.
Thinking about it I have some other once fired brass I could try easily enough (Federal, Hornady, Sako).
I don't know much about the who projectile stability thing, was just a thought considering I get good groups at 100 and 300, but opens up after that.
I use that bullet in my bolt guns at 2750fps and have shot it in matches to 1250 yards without issue. Actually hit the target more than anyone else in my squad at that 1250. Might need to tweak the load some if the groups are opening up at longer ranges if the brass change doesn’t do it.
I'll try some of the Hornady brass I've got, then look at turning the powder charge.
I didn't really want to start reloading another cartridge, yet here we are.
I'll just try 44gr in the Hornady brass and hope for the best. I don't have much of it, but if it looks promising I can pickup once fired brass very cheaply.
At some stage will look at doing a proper load development, but if all else fails I know i have a load that shoots well inside of 300yards.
The intention of this barrel was for hunting so that's probably all I really need, but might shoot some comps with it and/or shoot 308 for recoil management practice, so it'd be nice to have a decent load for it when I inevitably want to stretch out a bit.
You're trying to fix a problem by adding another one with this method.
If you use all same headstamp brass, like all hornady, it might give decent accuracy and numbers. However, if your goal is to reduce ES & SD as best as possible, you need it all to be from same lot.
Also, what's your brass prep like?
Not necessarily on the brass being same lot. I have used Hornady brass over many lots of once fired factory and get single digit SDs. Brass prep is a good question though.
You're telling me Hornady brass is that good? I mean it's hornady.
It might be, I'm not discrediting you, I would just have a hard time believing that. And any inaccuracies or inconsistencies would leave me second guessing my choice of having mixed lots.
You're telling me Hornady brass is that good? I mean it's hornady.
It might be, I'm not discrediting you, I would just have a hard time believing that. And any inaccuracies or inconsistencies would leave me second guessing my choice of having mixed lots.
It is for me. I only keep track of times fired. I have brass mixed up over the past 15 years I am using and single digit SDs and good accuracy.
As a bit of background, I was hoping to shoot factory ammo with the rifle/barrel but the match ammo I got (cheap) left a lot to be desired, and as I had most stuff I thought I’d throw together a load and see how it went.
Was happy with the sort distance accuracy, but it fell apart more than I’d have thought at 500 and 600yards, could’ve just been the wind on the day but if nothing else I know the ES needs to come down.
Brass prep was very basic.
Once fired Sellior Belliot brass, trimmed and chamfered (the case lengths were all over the place after one firing) no sorting at all.
FL sized with Hornady dies, minimal shoulder bump using Redding Competition shell holders.
If I wanted to go all in on the cartridge I’d buy Lapua brass and get some bushing dies, but at this stage not wanting to go there.
I feel Hornady gets a bad rap when it comes to brass. I tell guys this... if your running normal loads and not getting stupid with it... it will shoot just as good or last just as long as anything else. Yes Lapua etc....
You want to stand on the throttle... your in a different ball game all together than in my opinion.
I look at the test we ran with loads for 7/6.5PRC. We made the pressure test barrel. 32" finish length. Hornady did all the testing at no charge. I supplied most of the components that I had. Hornady supplied bullets, Sierra did, Berger did all at n/c. VV also supplied me some powder at n/c.
I had all the primers and some of the bullets. I told Hornady I would load everything and supply all the lot numbers for powder, primers and bullets etc... Hornady said... that they would supply the brass. I said not needed. I have Hornady and ADG brass. They said no. They wanted to supply the brass because then they/we would have the lot number of the brass and that lot of brass they would already have data on to calculate it in with the pressure testing so it would be one less variable.
Hornady also supplied me the reloading dies to my print for the chamber reamer.
I loaded and they tested 300 rounds fired. All 10 shot groups. I prepped the Hornady brass the same way I do everything else. Not a single issue and some of the ammo in pressure testing hit 70k psi. Anyways... all the accuracy was outstanding. Again no brass issues.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Ask Mark here. He shoots primarily short range BR. 6ppc guns. Currently holds two or three world records.
He only gets 5 firings out of his Lapua brass and he throws it away because the primer pockets are too loose. If I had to put a number guess to the PSI those guys are runnning.... It's 70k +.
He only gets 5 firings out of his Lapua brass and he throws it away because the primer pockets are too loose. If I had to put a number guess to the PSI those guys are runnning.... It's 70k +.
I only get better groups from the 155gr ELDM's when the bullets were loaded >0.050" from the lands.
If you have to use ELDM, get better brass.
If you are going to keep the brass, use better bullets (Sierra, Berger) and start annealing the cases
If you have to use ELDM, get better brass.
If you are going to keep the brass, use better bullets (Sierra, Berger) and start annealing the cases
For hunting purposes I think the only other bullet worth trying would be the 155TMK.
The Sierra 155gr Palma MK has a good BC and should be easy to tune.
I tend to stick with Hornady as they're the only bullet I've been able to consistently buy in the past few years.
I'll try different brass first as that's fairly easy to try.
They will look at different projectiles, dies, annealing, etc.
Well then try pushing the ELDM'S deeper. Try 50, 60 and 70 thou jump or until the crunch gets too much. Might work for you as well.
I did not see any velocity increase going from 20 thou jump to 70 thou jump with the 155 ELDM.
I did not see any velocity increase going from 20 thou jump to 70 thou jump with the 155 ELDM.
