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338 Norma Magnum

Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Thanks, I appreciate the input and your knowledge on the differences between the 300gn Sierras and the 300gn Lapua bullets. Sinclair has the Lapua projectiles, and I will be ordering them asap.
 
Re: 338 Norma Magnum

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pwhite</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks, I appreciate the input and your knowledge on the differences between the 300gn Sierras and the 300gn Lapua bullets. Sinclair has the Lapua projectiles, and I will be ordering them asap. </div></div>

Sinclair has them for $81.20 / 100
or
http://www.eabco.com/Lapua05.html they have them for $69 / 100
 
Re: 338 Norma Magnum

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FK300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pwhite</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks, I appreciate the input and your knowledge on the differences between the 300gn Sierras and the 300gn Lapua bullets. Sinclair has the Lapua projectiles, and I will be ordering them asap. </div></div>

Sinclair has them for $81.20 / 100
or
http://www.eabco.com/Lapua05.html they have them for $69 / 100

</div></div>

http://www.CFTACTICAL.COM/ here on the Hide has them for around $600/1000 if memory serves me correctly.
 
Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Any idea when this powder will available to the public?

If you're interested in this powder, I suggest you contact either Western or Hodgdon. Let them know of your interest.
 
Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Has anybody accurately determined the barrel life of the 338 Norma? I have been told to expect aprox 700 rnds, then another gentleman said 5000rnds. I guess I will eventually find out from experience, but I wouldn't mind knowing what your opinion is......once again Thanks for your time; Phillip White.
 
Re: 338 Norma Magnum

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RWSGunsmithing</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Great news Guys!! Jamison int. is now makeing brass for the 338 norma!! </div></div>

Where do we order?
 
Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Mine has arrived! Robert Snyder (RWSGunsmithing) built this sweet piece of fun. I am still getting used to the lighest trigger I ever pulled, my Jewell on the M16 match gun never dreamed of being this good.

654734330_8MDVZ-M.jpg


This was my first custom gun, and the result was more than I had hoped for. Thank You Robert for a job well done!

All I had last weekend was some US869 Powder and took these group pictures.

This is the first 10 shots through the tube for pressure tests and zeroing with cleaning after each. Started out with 92gr and went up from there.

654733680_jYpvA-M.jpg


The group below was 1 for zero (center) and 5 shots at 100yds with the 97gr load. I think the groups will get tighter as I get used to the trigger. I keep trying to take the slack out except there isn't any.

654734678_GBY7z-M.jpg


The rest of the afternoon was spent whacking hell out of a 6"x12" piece of steel at 400yds. I can't wait to get off this rock and back to Colorado where I can shoot at distance.

Witt
 
Re: 338 Norma Magnum


Anyone care to check my math, or any part of the chart? Please tell me if I'm all messed up.

This afternoon was spent looking through various load data sources to sort of compile a list of the available powders/bullets to use in the 338 Norma Mag. Everything listed is based on 338 Lapua Mag Load Data reduced by 6.5%. Please add to it or change to get the most accurate data if anyone thinks this is worth it.

*Before using any of the below listed data please find and read the post about guns blowing up and killing your entire family, lighting off WW III, Nuclear Winter, Etc...

Going off of these numbers I am going to try a pound of H-1000 and one of IMR-7828


This is an excel spreadsheet saved as an image...
663282616_bHdpH-X3.jpg


Witt
 
Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Witt,

I think you're off on the case capacity, but it's too early for me to calculate the delta. Case capacity, with bullet installed (300 SMK), loaded to 3.602", is right about 95.6 grains of water. Can't remember what it is with same bullet in the Lapua. Please see if your number for the Norma jives with mine.
 
Re: 338 Norma Magnum

BTW guys, the norma brass over @ Jamison can be had at a pretty dang good price esp vs. 338 Lapua brass. IIRC 1.54-1.74 ish a case depending on quantity. The lady I spoke to stated they had 84K in production that were in inspection this week so they should be avail fo near immediate delivery she said.
 
Re: 338 Norma Magnum

So has anyone pushed the 300gr bullets into the 3000fps range yet? How much more performance does the Norma give over the Lapua?
 
Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Not in the norma or lapua case safely. In some of the improved cases maybe but not is the standard case. I know some people push that hard but they are way over pressured and its only a matter of time before it bites them.
 
Re: 338 Norma Magnum


Another report from the range today. The chart listed above does seem to give loads on the light side, but I guess that also means its safe.

My goal is to find a powder delivering over 2700 fps without excessive pressure (would like to be around 2850 if possible). Todays loads were all Norma Brass, Federal Match Primers, and 300gr SMK's seated .002 off the lands.

Today H-1000 and IMR 7828 SSC was tested with a chronograph at 100 yds. The biggest thing I noticed was that with a 10 grain spread in 10 different loads for pressure tests the groups were suprisingly small.

Here is the H-1000 from 74 - 83 grains:

74gr 2298
75gr 2299
76gr 2377
77gr 2388
78gr 2412
79gr 2498
80gr 2501
81gr 2521
82gr 2549
83gr 2588

669543773_NhK5A-M.jpg


I did not fire any of the rounds I had made for groups with this powder because I was seeing some minor flattening of the primers at 83gr, and still did not have the velocity. This powder was also a PIA to work with, did not meter well at all, the kernels are large.

Here is the IMR 7828 SSC from 70 - 79 grains:

70gr 2377
71gr 2393
72gr 2482
73gr 2522
74gr 2545
75gr 2594
76gr 2641
77gr 2686
78gr 2714
79gr 2741

669543915_gUVfa-M.jpg


This is the best powder I have tried yet. At 79gr there was still no sign of pressure, for tomorrow I've loaded in half grain increments to 82 to see what that will do. This group size was wild considering each shot was loaded one grain higher than the one before. This powder meters well and is easy to work with.

Here is a 5 shot group with 76 gr, not the best velocity, but had to start somewhere.

669543644_q97HM-M.jpg


Here is a 5 shot group with 77 gr:

669544432_hxsGJ-M.jpg


Here is a 5 shot group with 78 gr:

669544696_nofnT-M.jpg


Here is the 5 shot group with 79 gr:

669544162_uicJ3-M.jpg


Still getting used to the light trigger, and am confident that the rifle would put some of these groups all in the same hole with a better trigger puller. Looking forward to tomorrow with slightly higher loads, and some extra 79gr loads to shoot at steel at 400 yds.

Witt
 
Re: 338 Norma Magnum

"Mag length is what hurts the Lapua"

I believe mag length will hurt only AI AWM and AICS mags because they were built too short to begin with for the 338 Lapua. TRG-42 mags are longer. How come the company (AI) involved in CIP-proofing the cartrigde ended up buildig mags 2mm too short when compared to CIP max length ? I do not know but that is what happened. For AICS 338 Norma is a good idea because AICS mags are so short.

300 MK´s and 300 Scenars are nice and dandy but other than bringing a little more punch to the target they do not deliver much else. 250 Scenar just happen to fly also after becoming subsonic really well out to 2000 meters AND more.

I think the 338 Norma Mag has a few things for it:
+ it fits in LA Rem Action and similar actions with DMBs better than 338LM
+ it works well with 300 MKs (I do not think it matters much but some people do)
+ 338 Norma is and probably will not be outlawed in countries forbidding 338LM on the basis that 338LM is a military/Nato cartridge.
+ recoil can be a little less (5% ?) because it uses less powder

Some things against it:
- brass available only from Norma
- custom reloading dies cost extra
- no factory ammo from major manufacturers available (at least yet)
- no factory rifles available (at least yet)
- no military surplus brass available (here in Finland once shot 338LM brass from both Lapua and RUAG/Norma is available for a reasonable cost)

So a 338 Norma might be a better/cheaper mouse trap but it´s better features are so little and at the moment it is a more or less wildcat cartridge that has nothing special to offer when compared to other proprietary/wildcat cartridges like 338 Edge.

If Rem or Win would offer off-the-shelf rifles for a 1000 USD in 338 Norma and a few major companies would offer brass and factory ammo, then 338 Norma could fly. Like it is now it will stay a pet cartridge for some tinkerers. Nothing wrong with that though.
 
Re: 338 Norma Magnum

"I wonder why Lapua even ventured out from the 250gr Scenar to even offer a 300gr Scenar for the Lapua ?!"

I talked with Lapua representatives about this. They told me bluntly "Because the market demand is there".

They are not necessarily selling a better mouse trap, they are selling what is getting sold.

Militaries are not buying any 300 Scenars besides small lots for general testing. The buy much more AP and API ammo in 338 LM nowdays.

EDIT:
I know VV N570 is not yeat available in the USA but it kicks butt on 338 Lapua. +950m/s (3160 fps) with 250 Moly-Scenars or 875-880 m/s (aprrx. 2920 fps) with molyed 300 MKs or 300 Scenars.

Same powder might give 338 Norma also more oomph.
 
Re: 338 Norma Magnum

TA,

Your right about the n570 being a great powder. Acording to quick load it will give the best velocity without hardly any pressure issues.

You are incorrect about norma being the only brass manufacturer though, Jamision is now makeing brass for it as well.

Witt, email sent with some info that was sent to me.
 
Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Any Word on when we will be able to obtain any N570....Really like to see if it will work in the 375 Cheytac?
 
Re: 338 Norma Magnum

TA,
I think you will find that in the very near future all of your cons listed for the 338 Norma will be a mute point.
The Norma brass is exceptional quality. I have 12 reloads on them and still show good primer pockets.
I have Forrester dies, so custom dies not required.
There are a couple of major manufactures coming out with factory rifles in this caliber.
And as far as military surplus brass, can't answer that one. I don't see any downside to the 338 Norma.
 
Re: 338 Norma Magnum

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Witt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mine has arrived! Robert Snyder (RWSGunsmithing) built this sweet piece of fun. I am still getting used to the lighest trigger I ever pulled, my Jewell on the M16 match gun never dreamed of being this good.

654734330_8MDVZ-M.jpg


This was my first custom gun, and the result was more than I had hoped for. Thank You Robert for a job well done!

All I had last weekend was some US869 Powder and took these group pictures.

This is the first 10 shots through the tube for pressure tests and zeroing with cleaning after each. Started out with 92gr and went up from there.

654733680_jYpvA-M.jpg


The group below was 1 for zero (center) and 5 shots at 100yds with the 97gr load. I think the groups will get tighter as I get used to the trigger. I keep trying to take the slack out except there isn't any.

654734678_GBY7z-M.jpg


The rest of the afternoon was spent whacking hell out of a 6"x12" piece of steel at 400yds. I can't wait to get off this rock and back to Colorado where I can shoot at distance.

Witt </div></div>

Whats the Specs on your rifle? LIke Barrel maker and so on? Im really digging that barrel fluting!
 
Re: 338 Norma Magnum

TA, I wonder if you are aware of Blaser offering a 338 blaser ( as well as some other "propietary" cartridges as 300 Blaser mag. and 7 blaser mag).- Talk is it is the same 338 lapua, but I guess they want to sell it under the Blaser brand and may be charge more
mad.gif
. In fact after cheking Blaser´s info they say at the bottom of the new Blaser cartridge page that their ammo will not be sold in the US, possibly because the 338 Norma is already released.

This may mean that 338 Norma , if it is the same as the 338 blaser, will be available in factory ammo this fall in Europe , and Blaser rifles ( which I do not like BTW) chambered for the round.
 
Re: 338 Norma Magnum

That is correct,Blaser is .535 at casehead and the Norma is .585 !!!
 
Re: 338 Norma Magnum


Robert (RWS Gunsmithing) could probably tell you alot more than I can, but the barrel is 28" long, and made by Brux I believe. There is no contour to the barrel, it is as wide as the receiver and straight for 28". This makes for a heavy gun, but it also has virtually no felt recoil with the Badger FTE Brake on there.

I don't know how they did the fluting but it turned out spectacular.

The stock is by Manners

GG&G Bipod

The scope is US Optics SN-3 3.5-17X with a 35mm tube and 58mm Obj. It has MOA knobs and Reticle. I personally find it easier to work with MOA than mils.

It is a Lawton action with a fluted bolt, and has the 5 round magazine, and a sweet ass trigger.

The whole thing is coated with Cerrakote

Witt
 
Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Cazorp and have None, thanks for the clarification.-

Cazorp, do you hve any fresh news from Norma?? When I spoke to them some months ago, they said the 338 norma was not ready yet but brass was already being sold in the US.
 
Re: 338 Norma Magnum

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gyr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cazorp and have None, thanks for the clarification.-

Cazorp, do you hve any fresh news from Norma?? When I spoke to them some months ago, they said the 338 norma was not ready yet but brass was already being sold in the US.
</div></div>

As I understand it, Norma "bought" this cartridge from the (US) guy who invented it, so everything has been very US oriented in its development, I'm not sure if Swedish made norma cases has even been produced yet, regardless of market?
 
Re: 338 Norma Magnum

I think Norma made production run of 150,000 cases and last i read on this thread they had 60,000 in Sweden !!!

They are supposed to have a 300 Norma evolving, supposed to surface in December or early next year as well.
 
Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Regarding barrel length, I was wondering how you were getting your reported velocities. Now I understand. You've got 4 additional inches over the SAAMI 24" barrel. Thanks for the clarification!

Now, I don't know for sure, but regarding IMR 7828, you might try a starting charge weight of ~ 72 grains and work up from there.
 
Re: 338 Norma Magnum

338 Norma Magnum Brass is now available for purchase from Jamisom. http://www.jamisoninternational.com/

Personaly.. i think this cartridge is being over hyped here. I think it`s going to be one of those new cartridges that are hyped today, gone tomorrow. The .338 Lapua Magnum is already an established cartridge with many countries around the world for Military and Special Operations.

Norma brought out there .338 NM when our US Military said they where looking into a possible .338 caliber for Longe Range Sniping in Afganistan. But instead of adopting a new and costly rifle platform and cartridge.. They chose to re-barrel there M24`s to .300 Win. Mag.. and use the new 220 gr SMK MK 248 MOD 1 load to extend the range to 1500 yards. This loading is far cheaper than any .338 cartridge, and doesnt give up much to the 338`s.

https://www.neco.navy.mil/upload/N00164/N0016409RJN30000209RJN30_0002_att.pdf

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2009infantrysmallarms/tuesdaysessioniii8524.pdf

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/USA-Orders-499M-in-300-Winchester-Magnum-Ammo-05493/
 
Re: 338 Norma Magnum

TomS308,
With all due respect, I think you will be proven wrong with regard to the 338 Norma.
 
Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Bluejazz.. Every year manufactures come out with hyped up, new and improved cartridges. Most never succeed. Most only dupicate the performance of well estabished cartridges. Only a few are used by a small number of niche shooters. The rest fall by the wayside. There are plenty of 338 designs out the that exceed the performance of the 338 Norma and Lapua magnums.. They are popular with hunters and long range shooters, and much cheaper to shoot too. The 338 Norma was designed to fit short detachable box magazines. But doesnt have the case capacity for higher velocities with 300 gr bullets. Why dont the manufactuers come out with longer magazines.. Cartridges designed by target shooters tend to be on the smaller side for any given caliber.. and only offer the minimum velocity, to achieve the designers goal. The firearms industry is really bad for coming out with new products.. and trying to convince the public we really need to buy this.. Nowadays the internet, internet forms are used for hyping products.. People are really gulible. Firearms last a long, long time.. if it wasnt for introducing new cartridges.. people wont have any reason to buy a new gun.. its all about profits.

To me.. Tactical Rifles, Tactical shooting is a fad right now.. like cowboy action shooting. Started in the late 1990`s, and really took off after the assualt weapon ban expired.. Wars in Iran and Afghanistan helped too.. Real Snipers (legal) are only employed by the Military, and Law Enforcement. Calibers for Sniper Rifles should only be for cartridges adopted by the Military.. 223, 308, 300 WM, 338 Lapua, 50 BMG. There maybe a few other cartridges the Military played with but never adopted.. There are other issues i see too.. like people i see building rifles that are to god dam heavy to be lugging around the Afghan mountains on 10 to 14 hour patrols. There was an article about are troops coming back home with back problems because of all the weight they have to carry. We need to start designing Lighter Weight Mountain Sniper Rifles i think.
 
Re: 338 Norma Magnum

Hi TomS308;
In the real world, what is your chosen caliber and weight?
You have my intrest at heart here, in trying to put together the all round perfect system.

Have A Great Day !!!
 
Re: 338 Norma Magnum

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TomS308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bluejazz.. Every year manufactures come out with hyped up, new and improved cartridges. Most never succeed. Most only dupicate the performance of well estabished cartridges. Only a few are used by a small number of niche shooters. The rest fall by the wayside. There are plenty of 338 designs out the that exceed the performance of the 338 Norma and Lapua magnums.. They are popular with hunters and long range shooters, and much cheaper to shoot too. The 338 Norma was designed to fit short detachable box magazines. But doesnt have the case capacity for higher velocities with 300 gr bullets. Why dont the manufactuers come out with longer magazines.. Cartridges designed by target shooters tend to be on the smaller side for any given caliber.. and only offer the minimum velocity, to achieve the designers goal. The firearms industry is really bad for coming out with new products.. and trying to convince the public we really need to buy this.. Nowadays the internet, internet forms are used for hyping products.. People are really gulible. Firearms last a long, long time.. if it wasnt for introducing new cartridges.. people wont have any reason to buy a new gun.. its all about profits.

To me.. Tactical Rifles, Tactical shooting is a fad right now.. like cowboy action shooting. Started in the late 1990`s, and really took off after the assualt weapon ban expired.. Wars in Iran and Afghanistan helped too.. Real Snipers (legal) are only employed by the Military, and Law Enforcement. Calibers for Sniper Rifles should only be for cartridges adopted by the Military.. 223, 308, 300 WM, 338 Lapua, 50 BMG. There maybe a few other cartridges the Military played with but never adopted.. There are other issues i see too.. like people i see building rifles that are to god dam heavy to be lugging around the Afghan mountains on 10 to 14 hour patrols. There was an article about are troops coming back home with back problems because of all the weight they have to carry. We need to start designing Lighter Weight Mountain Sniper Rifles i think. </div></div>

This is exactly why you are not an armorer or gunsmith. If the military wanted to they could purchase and fund any caliber rifle they wanted to. Its not about who needs to carry what its all about modular rifles now. Look at the Ashbury and Remington ACR. They can change platforms and calibers faster then you would believe.

Tactical Rifles is not a fad.... they have been around and they will be around forever. People who are enthusiasts will always have them built. These long range rifles or "sniper" rifles as you call them can be whatever caliber we want them to be in, just by the reamer. Who cares what the military uses or approves?! Having the choice of caliber when you come home from duty is a relief I would think from being locked down to one caliber that has its limits.

338 Norma Mag will be around for awhile. its has great potential!
 
Re: 338 Norma Magnum

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Have None</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hi TomS308;
In the real world, what is your chosen caliber and weight?
You have my intrest at heart here, in trying to put together the all round perfect system.

Have A Great Day !!!
</div></div>

Maybe the Red Rider BB Gun would be appropriate for TomS308. It's not a fad, it's light weight, low felt recoil and has been around for many years. (No implied sarcasm)
grin.gif


People on this thread, that have had a chance to try the 338NM, rarely have anything negative to say about it. It's impressive by design, fast and highly accurate. What more can one ask for? I'm only speculating but the one's that do speak negative about the 338NM have a different agenda; pushing their own product, never tried it or closed minded.
 
Re: 338 Norma Magnum

TomS308,

Damn I really wish I would have spoke to you before Mr. Sloan and Mike's GSS built my .338 Norma Magnum.
I could have saved a bunch of money and sent it to the Special Forces bodybuilding fund so those poor fellas could tote the heavy rifles around without all those back injuries.
 
Re: 338 Norma Magnum



Had another fun day with the new rifle today. Getting used to the rifle and starting to get some good groups.

Started today with 80gr of IMR 7828 SSC and got an average of 2654 fps

Here's the group (the orange dots are 1":

676738698_TvE2h-M.jpg


80.5 gr of IMR 7828 SSC averaged 2686, heres that group:

676738383_gUrQ3-M.jpg


The best group yet was with 81 gr IMR 7828 SSC, I won't load any hotter than this as I'm starting to see an imprint from the ejector and very slight bolt face marks. Primer pockets were not showing pressure and bolt lift was good, but I am stopping here with this powder.

There is no orange dot because I was aiming at a little silver staple that has since gone on to wherever vaporized staples go.

Here's the group:

676738557_sdo65-M.jpg


Hopefully the one store that sells powder out here will get some of the ramshot magnum in soon, I am looking forward to testing that one.

The rest of the day was spent shooting 80 gr loads at a 4" piece of steel at 440 yards until it blew off the rod holding it up. Then the 2" Rod that was holding it became full of holes.

The accuracy of this round is amazing. I had a buddy along and as long as we held correctly it was a consistent hit every time on the rod at 440yds.

Witt
 
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