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50 BMG goes subsonic at 1500 Yards? Effect?

Re: 50 BMG goes subsonic at 1500 Yards? Effect?

As Chiller said, the comparison they did is somewhat worthless. They took the lowest common denominator of ballistic performers from the various cases and compared them to the top level performer in the 408 that they're trying to market.

M33 Ball ammo going subsonic at 1500yd is true, however, it's not intended to be ELR ammo, nor is it match grade at any distance.

The 250 Scenar has a BC that is lower than most of the high quality, long range 7mm bullets.

There's really no point in comparing the 408 to M118 ammo, that's probably the best match up in terms of "quality level" but it's a non-comparable setup in terms of shear size. For applicability that is akin to saying "let's see how the 22 long rifle compares to the 30-06".

A more applicable comparison would be just as Chiller said, stick the 50BMG in the game with a 750 Amax and you'll see that supersonic range increase to about 2200yd under those atmospheric conditions.

You'll also see tran-sonic stability from that bullet as opposed to the bullet that they're pushing from the 408.

Additionally, a really true "apples to apples" would be to buy some of those high bc, super slippery 50cal solids, even go 1 step further and get a faster twist barrel on that 50, something with the same cals/turn to really compare it.

Building test on that kind of basis instead of biasing towards the lower denominators on the other calibers would make a much more telling statement. The 408 isn't really as far ahead as they would make it seem.
 
Re: 50 BMG goes subsonic at 1500 Yards? Effect?

This statement struck me as interesting:

"The .408 retains it's energy and velocity due to it's high ballistic co-efficient and a patented design."

First off, it's "its" (2 places). Secondly, I do not believe that the fact that it is "a patented design" has a damn thing to do with retained velocity or energy....

As stated above, it's not really a true comparison of the capabilities of the cartridges. In 338, they should have used a 300 grainer....

Cheers,

Bill
 
Re: 50 BMG goes subsonic at 1500 Yards? Effect?

Actually the design is good, it works, it is patented, it does retain more velocity and energy and EXTENDED ranges. That being said the Cheytac serpent is rotting from the head down. The company is a shambles (BK) the manufacturing and builds ended up being a joke, (many a thread started out here about dangeraous lack of QC in assembly). Lots of in fighting, lots of problems with vendors getting paid etc. etc. etc. At this point anything that comes out of their doors whether it is info, classes, rifles, or software, or handhelds should be given a HUGE dose of Caveat Emptor
 
Re: 50 BMG goes subsonic at 1500 Yards? Effect?

Interesting, my 750 AMAX stays supersonic when it hits its target at 2000 yards. Now, if you take the standard mil ball FMJ and compare it to their Chey Tac monolithic projo, then it's a different story. But then again, it's like comparing apple to oranges.
 
Re: 50 BMG goes subsonic at 1500 Yards? Effect?

This was the rationale CT used to try to get the military to switch from .50BMG based rifles to the .408. At least as far as a SASR platform.

Definitely an apples to oranges comparison. As several have noted, the 750 AMAX bullet would have fared far better in a comparison. The 800 grain solids would have fared even better.

The .50 also can carry a "payload" (M8API, Mk211), the .408, no.
I had discussions with several individuals within the military who wanted the .408 CT system who believed that if it was only adopted, the military would develop all sorts of "special" rounds for it. The Army has spent tens of millions of dollars, and 10 years developing a "match" 50 round (XM1022) that has yet been put into production.

Is the .408 (or better yet the .375) a better ELR sniper platform? Absolutely.

Is it a better anti-material platform? NO!

Yes, the Mk211 also goes transonic between 1450 and 1550 yards (out of a 29" barrel), and becomes quite unpredictable.

Another drawback to current issue 50 systems is that the magazines are only long enough to hold the standard bullets. Even the 750 AMAX ammo that was around had the bullets seated very deep in the case in order to fit the mag.
 
Re: 50 BMG goes subsonic at 1500 Yards? Effect?

It was commented here at SH that CheyTac was apparently out of business... anybody knows if that is true?
 
Re: 50 BMG goes subsonic at 1500 Yards? Effect?

Wouldnt doubt a bit if they are out of business. I tried to call and order a 408 for a client of mine and never once got a answered email or call...
 
Re: 50 BMG goes subsonic at 1500 Yards? Effect?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ELR researcher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...What is the effect - from the standpoints of accuracy and stability - of going subsonic? </div></div>
Going subsonic is not the problem. Going <span style="text-decoration: underline">tran</span>sonic is the problem.

As it slows, a supersonic bullet does not go subsonic all at once. Somewhere about 1.2x SoS, airflow over small portions of the bullet will begin to lose SoS. The more it slows, the more of the bullet that loses SoS until finally there is no remaining supersonic flow (which usually happens about 0.8x SoS). It's only then that the bullet is <span style="text-decoration: underline">sub</span>sonic.

The reason transonic flight tends to be problematic is because of "wave drag." Wave drag is a consequence of reaching the speed of sound and is much stronger than the forms of drag a subsonic bullet experiences. But during transonic flight, only parts of the bullet are experiencing wave drag. Such a strong force acting irregularly on the bullet will tend to upset its stability.

For the longest time, the speed of sound was the bogey man for both aviation and ballistics. The transonic region was a sort of "no man's land" to both fields, except that airplanes first needed to accelerate past it without flying to pieces while bullets needed to slow through it without meeting a similar fate.

Historically, maximum range was calculated as the greatest distance a given bullet launched at a given velocity could be expected to remain supersonic because most bullets became unstable when they backed into this transonic region. Which is why discussions like this often focus on the whole supersonic/subsonic thing, but that's in the process of changing. Some bullets now are noted for being able to slow through the transonic region without losing stability. Probably the most notable is the 250-gr .338 Lapua Lockbase (<span style="text-decoration: underline">not</span> the Lapua Scenar, which was used in the CheyTac tests, and which has a different construction). The Lockbase was the bullet used by a British sniper to break the "world record" sniper shot, at a distance something like 800 yards further than his rifle's "maximum range" as determined buy the old-school speed of sound method. That could have been a freak shot, pure blind luck, except that once he'd got the range, he shot two Taliban on successive shots (or so the story goes). But if it's now possible to regularly score hits beyond SoS, then we've entered a whole new era.

I don't have the expertise to take a side in the turf war over the Cheyenne Tactical testing other than to note that it took place in 2001. AFAIK, it's only been in the last ten years or so that certain bullets began demonstrating the ability to survive the transonic transition with their dignity intact. I think a lot of the focus in that regard is being driven by the fact that the war in Afghanistan is proving to be sort of the golden age of sniping, lots of engagements beyond 1000 yards and even beyond 2000 yards is not unheard of. If you remove the speed of sound as a barrier, all that remains is having sufficient bullet velocity to produce the desired effect on the target.

Anyway, that's my answer to your question about the effects on accuracy and stability.

It bears noting that Berger Bullet's ace ballistician and regular poster to this forum, Bryan Litz, has designed a 175-grain 30-caliber bullet to remain stable through the transonic region, and is selling a .308 Win tactical ammunition built around it through his company, Applied Ballistics.
 
Re: 50 BMG goes subsonic at 1500 Yards? Effect?

If bullet goes subsonic the target can hear the boom before the bullet gets there, possibly causing movement while in flight.

Already today, the best CT projectiles are supersonic longer than the best 50 cal bullets. The CT has a more efficient casing as less powder gives better results. And CT ammo weighs less and has smaller dimensions. Less money to shoot and more mobile are good things in military applications.

Speaking of moving around. 50-cal systems are heavy so only portable for the extremely fit (and .416 Barretts have the 50 cal base). The base action is an old design built like a tank - something like 30+ pounds. 375CTs can be made 15 pounds or so, for the whole rifle. More people in the military are capable of getting a CT-flavor where it needs to be, more people getting the job done is a good thing.

Yes 50 cals today are better for 'special purposes' like taking out equipment and have more existing fancy bullets to select from. Because the 50 cal has been around for decades with governments buying supplies, opportunists have put money into the 50 in attempt to get the money on the table.

It seams the CT company is coming apart at the seams, but do not know their internals. The basic CT ideas are solid and governments are paying attention, someone will find the perfect CT flavor then get the gold ... Is it Dave and his 375 VM ??? Or another. Maybe consider the 338/408 to have capability beyond the Lapua with the same 338 bullet technology. Today.

If the US government pick up a CT flavor it would take a step beyond the .338 Lapua, now the standard for the rest of the world outside our US military who just beefed up the 300WM to buy more time. I feel the US Government should skip the 338LM and go straight to a CT of some kind. Have not heard this anywhere in public, but seems the 338/408 has to be in the mix or are the people making decisions not making informed ones. When the right 375 CT flavor is worked out, as appears is the best someday, the US can switch to it with a barrel change to existing inventory of 338/408 rifles. Some of the guys here on the hide are key players perfecting the 375 CT flavors / bullets so can better share where that is at.

Maybe the US military should consider going with the 338/408 or another CT flavor for capability beyond the 300WM next (instead of the plan to get a gob of 338 Lapua Mags, like every one else already uses).

It seems US bean counters who make decisions are a step behind the real world with their own conservative reasons to justify, when being one step ahead of who you are playing with in a sand box is a better idea.
 
Re: 50 BMG goes subsonic at 1500 Yards? Effect?

In the army, we did try some ELR shooting with the Mk211 round out of a Barrett M82. It was a cold, clear day, 1 mph wind at max, approx 1000m ASL (3300 ft). Range 2210m, 1x1 meter target (3x3 feet). We used 3-4 shots to find the correct hold for elevation (2210m is way beyond the elevation range of the scope) and windage, followed up by 4 hits on the plate out of 7 shots fired. One (near) miss being a poor trigger pull by the shooter, the second landed about 30 meters (!) in front of the target, and the third missed the plate by 10-15 inches.

The conclusion was that the Mk211 is pretty predictable even when its trans/subsonic. Yes, a 408 or a 375 CT would be better, but the Mk211 is still a pretty good ELR round, and though its not likely to hit an insurgent in Afghanistan at 2000m+, our tests showed that its more than stable and accurate enough to supress the enemy at extreme distances.
 
Re: 50 BMG goes subsonic at 1500 Yards? Effect?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If bullet goes subsonic the target can hear the boom before the bullet gets there, possibly causing movement while in flight. </div></div>

Nope, doesn't work that way.


Under the following (ballistically poor) conditions:
59F
Sea Level (29.9inHg)
SoS ~ 1120 fps

750 Amax @ 2750fps

Time of flight to impact of a 50 using the 750 Amax at 3000yd is 5.84s, it is supersonic until 2500yd @ 4.41s flight time

The time for sound @ 1120 fps to reach 2500yd and 3000yd respectively:

2500yd = 6.70s
3000yd = 8.04s

So, even if you shoot a guy at 3000yd and his buddies are standing at 2500yd the bullet will arrive to 3000yd before his buddies can hear the muzzle report. Not to mention the feasibility of them recognizing an incoming shot from 1.5 miles out in 0.9s and trying to warn him in that 0.9s
 
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Re: 50 BMG goes subsonic at 1500 Yards? Effect?

bohem, Thank you I stand corrected with egg on my face. Nice math that should have done here. Not thinking and spreading rumor on the internet is bad, and go out of my way to try not to do that. Glad there are people here like yourself keeping it real.
 
Re: 50 BMG goes subsonic at 1500 Yards? Effect?

Been there myself
smile.gif
 
Re: 50 BMG goes subsonic at 1500 Yards? Effect?

If you're referring to the 'boom' of the muzzle blast, I agree completely with bohems analysis.

However... comma...

If you're talking about the sonic crack that emanates from the bullet up until it's subsonic, then the (sonic) 'boom' actually does reach the target before the bullet.

Granted this will be faint, muffled, and only precede the bullet by a short, possibly imperceptible time.

-Bryan
 
Re: 50 BMG goes subsonic at 1500 Yards? Effect?

Hi Bryan-

I thought about that as well, you're right the bullet crack does arrive ahead of the bullet. In my experience sitting in the pits with 308's shooting certain ammo it's so close to the time when the bullet goes over my head and hits the target backer I couldn't possibly duck before being smashed by it. A lot of the guys in the pits with me couldn't perceive it. It takes some intent listening to hear it happen as you have probably experienced yourself in the time shooting 1000yd with some of those 308 flavors that transition around 800-950yd. For that reason I had essentially negated the warning given, based on human reaction times; the ear can hear something much faster than the body can be willed to move.

 
Re: 50 BMG goes subsonic at 1500 Yards? Effect?

Bryan and bohem, thank you for the update about the sounds down range.

My OP was based on the fact that the target can hear a boom when the bullet transitions sub-sonic some distance before impact. The pre-impact sound is not made if the bullet remains supersonic beyond target.

Great animations and pictures are at:

http://paws.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/doppler/doppler.html

Can even solve for time sonic boom sound arrives before bullet in specific situations.

To a person on the ground, an object makes a sound when it transitions to the speed of sound. Similarly, I ask isn't it true when an object transitions slower than the speed of sound there is sound made so those near enough in front can hear the 'sonic boom' upon the transition. For discussion, when the space shuttle used be on final for Kennedy Space Center and slow down over my house in Orlando, FL there was a distinct double thump. In fact, the baby sitter once thought someone was on the roof
smile.gif
And then I ask myself, maybe it was just going by at the speed of sound and had not slowed down yet... but it was a sonic boom when incoming. We could see Space Shuttles take off from our yard in the town of Belle Isle on the Conway Chain of Lakes 2 mi E of MCO in south Orlando.

It is interesting the two sounds can be used to find BC at:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2257017

Dust_Remover also started a thread about the sound of bullets downrange on YouTube video at:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2235719

Additional info about the two sounds muzzle blast and bullet makes is at:

http://firearmsid.com/Feature%20Articles/soundofbullets/soundofbullets2.htm

I try not to hear subsonic 50-cal bullets coming at me. Possibly this guy knows LOL:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ABGIJwiGBc

Is that real? Other real video of possibly incoming bullets sounds before getting to target is 6 minutes and 20 seconds into:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE1rAriw-IY&NR=1

My hypothesis: The sound of a 50 cal bullet coming in at 3000m would be a bull-whip like Crack (or Snap-thump double sonic boom sound, volume depending on distance) then pssssssssssssssss rifling spinning tumbling bullet flying sound (preceding the nnnnnnnng as it goes by). Something strange enough to possibly make everything at a target location jump for cover. The bullet would transition subsonic causing a 'sonic boom' before it gets to target then have the zzzzzzznnnnnnnnnn sound similar to the 50 cal ricochet incoming above on YouTube. Then after impact maybe if listen very careful could hear a very faint muzzle blast if at all at such huge distance.

A further possible accuracy issue with a 50-cal shot at 3000m is some bullets do not transition subsonic as predictable as they would have been if stayed supersonic. And most 50-cal primers today are inconsistent, built for quantity not quality.

Still feel the US military should go some CheyTac flavor as the system is much lighter weight, uses standard primers, and loads can be made where bullets remain supersonic longer with more accuracy in many situations than standard 50 cals loads of today. Possibly consider the 338/408. Shift 338 Lapua Magnum plans to something better than the rest of the world already has. If go with a CT 338/408 system to start instead of Lapua can switch to a CT 375 flavor or whatever CheyTac flavor works best with a barrel change if ever desire it later. Today, some CT flavored rifle would provide the US military with the benefits especially increased mobility of a lighter weight long range system to do jobs beyond the 50 cal capabilities. It would not replace the need for 50 cals for what they do well and in vehicles where they are already installed so 50 cal systems need continued improvements. Implementing a CT platform ASAP, instead of Lapua, could give our troops advantage in the sand boxes where they play today.
 
Re: 50 BMG goes subsonic at 1500 Yards? Effect?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If bullet goes subsonic the target can hear the boom before the bullet gets there, possibly causing movement while in flight. </div></div>

Nope, doesn't work that way.


Under the following (ballistically poor) conditions:
59F
Sea Level (29.9inHg)
SoS ~ 1120 fps

750 Amax @ 2750fps

Time of flight to impact of a 50 using the 750 Amax at 3000yd is 5.84s, it is supersonic until 2500yd @ 4.41s flight time

The time for sound @ 1120 fps to reach 2500yd and 3000yd respectively:

2500yd = 6.70s
3000yd = 8.04s

So, even if you shoot a guy at 3000yd and his buddies are standing at 2500yd the bullet will arrive to 3000yd before his buddies can hear the muzzle report. Not to mention the feasibility of them recognizing an incoming shot from 1.5 miles out in 0.9s and trying to warn him in that 0.9s



</div></div>

Edited my comment and question as it did not apply
wink.gif
 
Re: 50 BMG goes subsonic at 1500 Yards? Effect?

Oregon,

I have spent 20 years using the .50BMG in FCSA competition, and 15+ years sharing information with the military in the use and development of .50BMG rifles, equipment and ammunition.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, there is no argument that there are far better anti-personnel rifle systems currently in existence and being developed. One of the reasons the "50" has continued in service is because there are thousands of M2HB's still in service and millions of rounds of 50BMG ammo readily available. It is and was always intended as an anti-material weapon system, that had been occasionally used in anti-personnel roles. There have even been mis-informed JAG personnel who prohibited operators from utilizing Mk211 ammo against personnel. It remains un-matched for being able to punch through walls or barrier material.

The military is unfortunately slow to act when it comes to change when it comes to new small arms systems (not just precision rifles). It must also consider NATO standards. There will always be resistance to proprietary systems or ammo due to the logistic difficulty. Even with the best bullets, the 50 will never be the ideal long range anti-personnel system due to weight, cartridge efficiency, and other issues. It does however serve it's intended role well, and will likely be around for some time.


It is also likely (my opinion only) that the PSR project will end up using an .338 cartridge. It will not be based on any .375/.408 or similar cartridge. It will still be a far better system than has been in use so far.
 
Re: 50 BMG goes subsonic at 1500 Yards? Effect?

I would like to see CT expand and grow but with how they handled their business and their sharing or lack of sharing systems it was bound to die out or remain minimaly relevant.

Just my .02
 
Re: 50 BMG goes subsonic at 1500 Yards? Effect?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Parkze17</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Although I have nothing to contribute to this post I really enjoyed reading it thanks guys! </div></div>

its against the rules to try to build up post quick so you can use the for sale section .
 
Re: 50 BMG goes subsonic at 1500 Yards? Effect?

heres what ive seen on a ballistic calculator

Trajectory
Input Data
Manufacturer: Hornady Description: A-Max®
Caliber: 0.510 in Weight: 750.0 gr
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.050 G1

Muzzle Velocity: 2700.0 ft/s Distance to Chronograph: 10.0 ft

Sight Height: 1.50 in Sight Offset: 0.00 in
Zero Height: 36.00 in Zero Offset: 0.00 in
Windage: 0.000 MOA Elevation: 0.000 MOA
Line Of Sight Angle: 0.0 deg Cant Angle: 0.0 deg

Wind Speed: 0.0 mph Wind Angle: 0.0 deg
Target Speed: 0.0 mph Target Angle: 90.0 deg
Target Height: 72.0 in

Temperature: 90.0 °F Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Humidity: 90.0 % Altitude: 140.0 ft

Vital Zone Radius: 5.0 in

Std. Atmosphere at Altitude: No Pressure is Corrected: Yes
Zero at Max. Point Blank Range: No Target Relative Drops: Yes
Mark Sound Barrier Crossing: Yes Include Extra Rows: No
Column 1 Units: 1.00 in Column 2 Units: 1.00 MOA
Round Output to Whole Numbers: No
Output Data
Elevation: 31.928 MOA Windage: 0.000 MOA

Atmospheric Density: 0.07063 lb/ft³ Speed of Sound: 1149.4 ft/s

Maximum PBR: 351 yd Maximum PBR Zero: 296 yd
Range of Maximum Height: 160 yd Energy at Maximum PBR: 9775.6 ft•lbs

Sectional Density: 0.412 lb/in²
Calculated Table
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (MOA)
100 29.5 28.2 0.0 0.0 2621.2 2.281 11440.4 0.113 0.0 0.0
125 36.5 27.9 0.0 0.0 2601.1 2.263 11265.2 0.141 0.0 0.0
150 43.1 27.5 0.0 0.0 2581.0 2.246 11092.1 0.170 0.0 0.0
175 49.5 27.0 0.0 0.0 2561.1 2.228 10921.1 0.200 0.0 0.0
200 55.5 26.5 0.0 0.0 2541.2 2.211 10752.2 0.229 0.0 0.0
225 61.1 25.9 0.0 0.0 2521.4 2.194 10585.4 0.259 0.0 0.0
250 66.4 25.4 0.0 0.0 2501.7 2.177 10420.5 0.288 0.0 0.0
275 71.4 24.8 0.0 0.0 2482.1 2.159 10257.7 0.319 0.0 0.0
300 76.0 24.2 0.0 0.0 2462.5 2.142 10096.9 0.349 0.0 0.0
325 80.3 23.6 0.0 0.0 2443.1 2.126 9938.0 0.379 0.0 0.0
350 84.2 23.0 0.0 0.0 2423.7 2.109 9781.1 0.410 0.0 0.0
375 87.7 22.3 0.0 0.0 2404.4 2.092 9626.1 0.441 0.0 0.0
400 90.9 21.7 0.0 0.0 2385.2 2.075 9473.0 0.473 0.0 0.0
425 93.6 21.0 0.0 0.0 2366.1 2.059 9321.8 0.504 0.0 0.0
450 96.0 20.4 0.0 0.0 2347.1 2.042 9172.5 0.536 0.0 0.0
475 98.0 19.7 0.0 0.0 2328.2 2.026 9025.1 0.568 0.0 0.0
500 99.6 19.0 0.0 0.0 2309.3 2.009 8879.5 0.600 0.0 0.0
525 100.8 18.3 0.0 0.0 2290.5 1.993 8735.7 0.633 0.0 0.0
550 101.5 17.6 0.0 0.0 2271.8 1.977 8593.7 0.666 0.0 0.0
575 101.9 16.9 0.0 0.0 2253.2 1.960 8453.5 0.699 0.0 0.0
600 101.8 16.2 0.0 0.0 2234.7 1.944 8315.1 0.733 0.0 0.0
625 101.3 15.5 0.0 0.0 2216.3 1.928 8178.5 0.766 0.0 0.0
650 100.3 14.7 0.0 0.0 2197.9 1.912 8043.6 0.800 0.0 0.0
675 98.9 14.0 0.0 0.0 2179.7 1.896 7910.5 0.835 0.0 0.0
700 97.0 13.2 0.0 0.0 2161.5 1.881 7779.1 0.869 0.0 0.0
725 94.7 12.5 0.0 0.0 2143.4 1.865 7649.4 0.904 0.0 0.0
750 91.9 11.7 0.0 0.0 2125.4 1.849 7521.5 0.939 0.0 0.0
775 88.6 10.9 0.0 0.0 2107.5 1.834 7395.2 0.974 0.0 0.0
800 84.8 10.1 0.0 0.0 2089.7 1.818 7270.7 1.010 0.0 0.0
825 80.6 9.3 0.0 0.0 2071.9 1.803 7147.8 1.046 0.0 0.0
850 75.8 8.5 0.0 0.0 2054.3 1.787 7026.7 1.083 0.0 0.0
875 70.5 7.7 0.0 0.0 2036.7 1.772 6907.1 1.119 0.0 0.0
900 64.7 6.9 0.0 0.0 2019.3 1.757 6789.2 1.156 0.0 0.0
925 58.3 6.0 0.0 0.0 2001.9 1.742 6672.9 1.194 0.0 0.0
950 51.4 5.2 0.0 0.0 1984.6 1.727 6558.3 1.231 0.0 0.0
975 44.0 4.3 0.0 0.0 1967.5 1.712 6445.3 1.269 0.0 0.0
1000 36.0 3.4 0.0 0.0 1950.4 1.697 6333.9 1.307 0.0 0.0
1025 27.4 2.6 0.0 0.0 1933.4 1.682 6224.0 1.346 0.0 0.0
1050 18.3 1.7 0.0 0.0 1916.5 1.667 6115.8 1.385 0.0 0.0
1075 8.5 0.8 0.0 0.0 1899.7 1.653 6009.1 1.424 0.0 0.0
1100 -1.8 -0.2 0.0 0.0 1883.0 1.638 5904.0 1.464 0.0 0.0
1125 -12.8 -1.1 0.0 0.0 1866.5 1.624 5800.5 1.504 0.0 0.0
1150 -24.4 -2.0 0.0 0.0 1850.0 1.610 5698.5 1.544 0.0 0.0
1175 -36.6 -3.0 0.0 0.0 1833.6 1.595 5598.0 1.585 0.0 0.0
1200 -49.5 -3.9 0.0 0.0 1817.3 1.581 5499.1 1.626 0.0 0.0
1225 -63.0 -4.9 0.0 0.0 1801.2 1.567 5401.7 1.668 0.0 0.0
1250 -77.2 -5.9 0.0 0.0 1785.1 1.553 5305.8 1.709 0.0 0.0
1275 -92.1 -6.9 0.0 0.0 1769.1 1.539 5211.4 1.752 0.0 0.0
1300 -107.6 -7.9 0.0 0.0 1753.3 1.525 5118.6 1.794 0.0 0.0
1325 -123.9 -8.9 0.0 0.0 1737.6 1.512 5027.2 1.837 0.0 0.0
1350 -140.9 -10.0 0.0 0.0 1722.0 1.498 4937.3 1.881 0.0 0.0
1375 -158.6 -11.0 0.0 0.0 1706.5 1.485 4848.8 1.924 0.0 0.0
1400 -177.1 -12.1 0.0 0.0 1691.1 1.471 4761.9 1.969 0.0 0.0
1425 -196.3 -13.2 0.0 0.0 1675.9 1.458 4676.4 2.013 0.0 0.0
1450 -216.3 -14.2 0.0 0.0 1660.7 1.445 4592.3 2.058 0.0 0.0
1475 -237.1 -15.4 0.0 0.0 1645.7 1.432 4509.7 2.103 0.0 0.0
1500 -258.7 -16.5 0.0 0.0 1630.9 1.419 4428.5 2.149 0.0 0.0
1525 -281.2 -17.6 0.0 0.0 1616.1 1.406 4348.7 2.195 0.0 0.0
1550 -304.4 -18.8 0.0 0.0 1601.5 1.393 4270.4 2.242 0.0 0.0
1575 -328.5 -19.9 0.0 0.0 1587.0 1.381 4193.4 2.289 0.0 0.0
1600 -353.5 -21.1 0.0 0.0 1572.6 1.368 4117.9 2.337 0.0 0.0
1625 -379.3 -22.3 0.0 0.0 1558.4 1.356 4043.7 2.385 0.0 0.0
1650 -406.0 -23.5 0.0 0.0 1544.3 1.344 3971.0 2.433 0.0 0.0
1675 -433.7 -24.7 0.0 0.0 1530.4 1.331 3899.6 2.482 0.0 0.0
1700 -462.2 -26.0 0.0 0.0 1516.6 1.319 3829.6 2.531 0.0 0.0
1725 -491.7 -27.2 0.0 0.0 1502.9 1.308 3760.9 2.581 0.0 0.0
1750 -522.2 -28.5 0.0 0.0 1489.4 1.296 3693.5 2.631 0.0 0.0
1775 -553.7 -29.8 0.0 0.0 1476.0 1.284 3627.6 2.681 0.0 0.0
1800 -586.1 -31.1 0.0 0.0 1462.8 1.273 3562.9 2.733 0.0 0.0
1825 -619.6 -32.4 0.0 0.0 1449.8 1.261 3499.6 2.784 0.0 0.0
1850 -654.1 -33.8 0.0 0.0 1436.9 1.250 3437.6 2.836 0.0 0.0
1875 -689.7 -35.1 0.0 0.0 1424.1 1.239 3376.9 2.889 0.0 0.0
1900 -726.3 -36.5 0.0 0.0 1411.5 1.228 3317.5 2.942 0.0 0.0
1925 -764.0 -37.9 0.0 0.0 1399.1 1.217 3259.5 2.995 0.0 0.0
1950 -802.9 -39.3 0.0 0.0 1386.9 1.207 3202.7 3.049 0.0 0.0
1975 -842.8 -40.8 0.0 0.0 1374.8 1.196 3147.1 3.103 0.0 0.0
2000 -884.0 -42.2 0.0 0.0 1362.9 1.186 3092.8 3.158 0.0 0.0
2025 -926.3 -43.7 0.0 0.0 1351.2 1.176 3039.9 3.213 0.0 0.0
2050 -969.7 -45.2 0.0 0.0 1339.6 1.166 2988.2 3.269 0.0 0.0
2075 -1014.4 -46.7 0.0 0.0 1328.3 1.156 2937.7 3.325 0.0 0.0
2100 -1060.4 -48.2 0.0 0.0 1317.1 1.146 2888.4 3.382 0.0 0.0
 
Re: 50 BMG goes subsonic at 1500 Yards? Effect?

here same variables for the 408 cheytac 419 gr bullet

Trajectory
Input Data
Manufacturer: Hornady Description: A-Max®
Caliber: 0.510 in Weight: 750.0 gr
Ballistic Coefficient: 1.050 G1

Muzzle Velocity: 3000.0 ft/s Distance to Chronograph: 10.0 ft

Sight Height: 1.50 in Sight Offset: 0.00 in
Zero Height: 36.00 in Zero Offset: 0.00 in
Windage: 0.000 MOA Elevation: 0.000 MOA
Line Of Sight Angle: 0.0 deg Cant Angle: 0.0 deg

Wind Speed: 0.0 mph Wind Angle: 0.0 deg
Target Speed: 0.0 mph Target Angle: 90.0 deg
Target Height: 72.0 in

Temperature: 90.0 °F Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Humidity: 90.0 % Altitude: 140.0 ft

Vital Zone Radius: 5.0 in

Std. Atmosphere at Altitude: No Pressure is Corrected: Yes
Zero at Max. Point Blank Range: No Target Relative Drops: Yes
Mark Sound Barrier Crossing: Yes Include Extra Rows: No
Column 1 Units: 1.00 in Column 2 Units: 1.00 MOA
Round Output to Whole Numbers: No
Output Data
Elevation: 26.309 MOA Windage: 0.000 MOA

Atmospheric Density: 0.07063 lb/ft³ Speed of Sound: 1149.4 ft/s

Maximum PBR: 389 yd Maximum PBR Zero: 328 yd
Range of Maximum Height: 177 yd Energy at Maximum PBR: 11901.5 ft•lbs

Sectional Density: 0.412 lb/in²
Calculated Table
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (MOA)
100 24.1 23.0 0.0 0.0 2915.9 2.537 14157.0 0.101 0.0 0.0
125 29.9 22.8 0.0 0.0 2894.4 2.518 13949.0 0.127 0.0 0.0
150 35.4 22.5 0.0 0.0 2873.0 2.500 13743.6 0.153 0.0 0.0
175 40.6 22.2 0.0 0.0 2851.7 2.481 13540.6 0.179 0.0 0.0
200 45.6 21.8 0.0 0.0 2830.5 2.463 13340.2 0.206 0.0 0.0
225 50.3 21.3 0.0 0.0 2809.4 2.444 13142.1 0.232 0.0 0.0
250 54.7 20.9 0.0 0.0 2788.4 2.426 12946.4 0.259 0.0 0.0
275 58.9 20.4 0.0 0.0 2767.5 2.408 12753.1 0.286 0.0 0.0
300 62.7 20.0 0.0 0.0 2746.7 2.390 12562.1 0.313 0.0 0.0
325 66.3 19.5 0.0 0.0 2726.0 2.372 12373.5 0.341 0.0 0.0
350 69.6 19.0 0.0 0.0 2705.4 2.354 12187.1 0.368 0.0 0.0
375 72.6 18.5 0.0 0.0 2684.9 2.336 12003.0 0.396 0.0 0.0
400 75.3 18.0 0.0 0.0 2664.5 2.318 11821.0 0.424 0.0 0.0
425 77.7 17.5 0.0 0.0 2644.2 2.300 11641.3 0.453 0.0 0.0
450 79.8 16.9 0.0 0.0 2623.9 2.283 11463.7 0.481 0.0 0.0
475 81.5 16.4 0.0 0.0 2603.8 2.265 11288.3 0.510 0.0 0.0
500 83.0 15.8 0.0 0.0 2583.7 2.248 11115.0 0.539 0.0 0.0
525 84.1 15.3 0.0 0.0 2563.7 2.230 10943.7 0.568 0.0 0.0
550 84.8 14.7 0.0 0.0 2543.8 2.213 10774.6 0.597 0.0 0.0
575 85.3 14.2 0.0 0.0 2524.0 2.196 10607.5 0.627 0.0 0.0
600 85.4 13.6 0.0 0.0 2504.3 2.179 10442.4 0.657 0.0 0.0
625 85.2 13.0 0.0 0.0 2484.7 2.162 10279.4 0.687 0.0 0.0
650 84.6 12.4 0.0 0.0 2465.1 2.145 10118.4 0.717 0.0 0.0
675 83.6 11.8 0.0 0.0 2445.7 2.128 9959.3 0.747 0.0 0.0
700 82.3 11.2 0.0 0.0 2426.3 2.111 9802.1 0.778 0.0 0.0
725 80.6 10.6 0.0 0.0 2407.0 2.094 9646.9 0.809 0.0 0.0
750 78.6 10.0 0.0 0.0 2387.8 2.077 9493.6 0.841 0.0 0.0
775 76.1 9.4 0.0 0.0 2368.7 2.061 9342.3 0.872 0.0 0.0
800 73.3 8.7 0.0 0.0 2349.7 2.044 9192.8 0.904 0.0 0.0
825 70.1 8.1 0.0 0.0 2330.7 2.028 9045.1 0.936 0.0 0.0
850 66.5 7.5 0.0 0.0 2311.9 2.011 8899.3 0.968 0.0 0.0
875 62.4 6.8 0.0 0.0 2293.1 1.995 8755.3 1.001 0.0 0.0
900 58.0 6.2 0.0 0.0 2274.4 1.979 8613.1 1.034 0.0 0.0
925 53.2 5.5 0.0 0.0 2255.8 1.963 8472.7 1.067 0.0 0.0
950 47.9 4.8 0.0 0.0 2237.3 1.946 8334.1 1.100 0.0 0.0
975 42.1 4.1 0.0 0.0 2218.8 1.930 8197.3 1.134 0.0 0.0
1000 36.0 3.4 0.0 0.0 2200.5 1.914 8062.2 1.168 0.0 0.0
1025 29.4 2.7 0.0 0.0 2182.2 1.899 7928.9 1.202 0.0 0.0
1050 22.3 2.0 0.0 0.0 2164.0 1.883 7797.3 1.237 0.0 0.0
1075 14.8 1.3 0.0 0.0 2145.9 1.867 7667.4 1.271 0.0 0.0
1100 6.8 0.6 0.0 0.0 2127.9 1.851 7539.3 1.306 0.0 0.0
1125 -1.7 -0.1 0.0 0.0 2110.0 1.836 7412.9 1.342 0.0 0.0
1150 -10.7 -0.9 0.0 0.0 2092.2 1.820 7288.1 1.378 0.0 0.0
1175 -20.1 -1.6 0.0 0.0 2074.4 1.805 7165.1 1.414 0.0 0.0
1200 -30.1 -2.4 0.0 0.0 2056.8 1.789 7043.7 1.450 0.0 0.0
1225 -40.6 -3.2 0.0 0.0 2039.2 1.774 6924.0 1.486 0.0 0.0
1250 -51.6 -3.9 0.0 0.0 2021.8 1.759 6805.9 1.523 0.0 0.0
1275 -63.1 -4.7 0.0 0.0 2004.4 1.744 6689.4 1.561 0.0 0.0
1300 -75.2 -5.5 0.0 0.0 1987.1 1.729 6574.6 1.598 0.0 0.0
1325 -87.8 -6.3 0.0 0.0 1969.9 1.714 6461.4 1.636 0.0 0.0
1350 -101.0 -7.1 0.0 0.0 1952.8 1.699 6349.8 1.674 0.0 0.0
1375 -114.7 -8.0 0.0 0.0 1935.8 1.684 6239.7 1.713 0.0 0.0
1400 -129.1 -8.8 0.0 0.0 1918.9 1.670 6131.3 1.752 0.0 0.0
1425 -144.0 -9.6 0.0 0.0 1902.2 1.655 6024.5 1.791 0.0 0.0
1450 -159.5 -10.5 0.0 0.0 1885.5 1.640 5919.2 1.831 0.0 0.0
1475 -175.7 -11.4 0.0 0.0 1868.9 1.626 5815.4 1.871 0.0 0.0
1500 -192.4 -12.2 0.0 0.0 1852.4 1.612 5713.3 1.911 0.0 0.0
1525 -209.8 -13.1 0.0 0.0 1836.0 1.597 5612.6 1.952 0.0 0.0
1550 -227.8 -14.0 0.0 0.0 1819.7 1.583 5513.5 1.993 0.0 0.0
1575 -246.5 -14.9 0.0 0.0 1803.5 1.569 5415.9 2.034 0.0 0.0
1600 -265.9 -15.9 0.0 0.0 1787.5 1.555 5319.8 2.076 0.0 0.0
1625 -285.9 -16.8 0.0 0.0 1771.5 1.541 5225.3 2.118 0.0 0.0
1650 -306.7 -17.7 0.0 0.0 1755.7 1.527 5132.2 2.161 0.0 0.0
1675 -328.1 -18.7 0.0 0.0 1739.9 1.514 5040.6 2.204 0.0 0.0
1700 -350.3 -19.7 0.0 0.0 1724.3 1.500 4950.6 2.247 0.0 0.0
1725 -373.1 -20.7 0.0 0.0 1708.8 1.487 4861.9 2.291 0.0 0.0
1750 -396.8 -21.7 0.0 0.0 1693.4 1.473 4774.8 2.335 0.0 0.0
1775 -421.2 -22.7 0.0 0.0 1678.2 1.460 4689.1 2.379 0.0 0.0
1800 -446.3 -23.7 0.0 0.0 1663.0 1.447 4604.9 2.424 0.0 0.0
1825 -472.3 -24.7 0.0 0.0 1648.0 1.434 4522.1 2.469 0.0 0.0
1850 -499.0 -25.8 0.0 0.0 1633.1 1.421 4440.7 2.515 0.0 0.0
1875 -526.6 -26.8 0.0 0.0 1618.3 1.408 4360.7 2.561 0.0 0.0
1900 -555.0 -27.9 0.0 0.0 1603.7 1.395 4282.2 2.608 0.0 0.0
1925 -584.2 -29.0 0.0 0.0 1589.2 1.383 4205.1 2.655 0.0 0.0
1950 -614.3 -30.1 0.0 0.0 1574.8 1.370 4129.4 2.702 0.0 0.0
1975 -645.3 -31.2 0.0 0.0 1560.6 1.358 4055.0 2.750 0.0 0.0
2000 -677.1 -32.3 0.0 0.0 1546.5 1.345 3982.1 2.799 0.0 0.0
2025 -709.9 -33.5 0.0 0.0 1532.5 1.333 3910.5 2.847 0.0 0.0
2050 -743.6 -34.6 0.0 0.0 1518.7 1.321 3840.3 2.897 0.0 0.0
2075 -778.3 -35.8 0.0 0.0 1505.0 1.309 3771.5 2.946 0.0 0.0
2100 -813.9 -37.0 0.0 0.0 1491.5 1.298 3703.9 2.996 0.0 0.0
 
Re: 50 BMG goes subsonic at 1500 Yards? Effect?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fred_C_Dobbs</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ELR researcher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...What is the effect - from the standpoints of accuracy and stability - of going subsonic? </div></div>
Going subsonic is not the problem. Going <span style="text-decoration: underline">tran</span>sonic is the problem.
Some bullets now are noted for being able to slow through the transonic region without losing stability. Probably the most notable is the 250-gr .338 Lapua Lockbase (<span style="text-decoration: underline">not</span> the Lapua Scenar, which was used in the CheyTac tests, and which has a different construction). The Lockbase was the bullet used by a British sniper to break the "world record" sniper shot, at a distance something like 800 yards further than his rifle's "maximum range" as determined buy the old-school speed of sound method.</div></div>

250gr Scenar flies ok too:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=581778&page=1
 
Re: 50 BMG goes subsonic at 1500 Yards? Effect?

I'm confused by the last 416 Barrett post...

At the top it says its regarding 408 CT with 419 gr projectile (presumably for comparison with the just prior 50 cal data) but the data shows the same .510 750 gr A-Max but now with a 3000 fps muzzle velocity rather than the prior 2700.

So the resulting data are for a 50 cal 750 A-MAx with 3000 MV, not a 408 CT with 419.

Am I missing something? Wrong data set or?
 
Re: 50 BMG goes subsonic at 1500 Yards? Effect?

Oregon-

I am just now seeing your question:

My understanding of the "double boom" from the space shuttle is explained by the boom bouncing from one of the temperature layers in the atmosphere.

The first one is the boom coming down directly, the second is the one going up from the top of the aircraft, reflecting, and then coming back down being heard.

Bullets are so small and so close to the ground that you don't hear a second boom from them. There is usually a second, delayed, muffled boom from the muzzle blast.
 
Re: 50 BMG goes subsonic at 1500 Yards? Effect?

to the OP, reading Bryan Litz's book, on page 94 he brings up the Hornady 750 AMAX being tracked by doppler radar out to 2500 yds. MV 2690, TOF is around 2.6 to 1500 and YES it does go subsonic around 1500yds. HOWEVER, it seems like it transitions to transonic flight pretty well and tracked nearly perfectly out to 2500 yds. This is the most accurate test out there and he says can be considered "truth data". I dont know why cheytac would use the worst .50 round they could find when the chey tac could beat the best they could find. I guess they just wanted to make it look more impressive.
 
Re: 50 BMG goes subsonic at 1500 Yards? Effect?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Goose375</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dont know why cheytac would use the worst .50 round they could find when the chey tac could beat the best they could find. I guess they just wanted to make it look more impressive.</div></div>
You just answered your own question.
smile.gif
 
Re: 50 BMG goes subsonic at 1500 Yards? Effect?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ELR researcher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm confused by the last 416 Barrett post...

At the top it says its regarding 408 CT with 419 gr projectile (presumably for comparison with the just prior 50 cal data) but the data shows the same .510 750 gr A-Max but now with a 3000 fps muzzle velocity rather than the prior 2700.

So the resulting data are for a 50 cal 750 A-MAx with 3000 MV, not a 408 CT with 419.

Am I missing something? Wrong data set or?</div></div>

3,000 fps with an AMax is smokin' fast. The .416 Barret is still trying to iron out bullet problems. Once that is "fixed" it will give anything a run for it's money but remember this is a BMG based system and the .408 and the .375/.408 would be a MUCH lighter system so much more "useful" for true field duty. However Barret has the ability and the inside contacts to make the .416 a more viable choice especially now that Cheytac has imploded.