- Thread starter padom
- Start date
Yes, never had the tip deform. H4350 FED210Ms and Peterson brass have yielded the best results in the shitty AR I have.
STaBALL and CCI MILSPEC primers work ok too.
From what I have seen with 135 and 390 grain ATIPS they like to be seated deeper.
I’m very surprised you had that much pressure at such low charges with Staball. I worked up to 44 grains with the 140ELD and no no pressure at all. Something going on there? The max load for 130gr is 45.5gr in Hornady brass.
What did you find out?
Anybody out there tried ar-comp with 130's? The sierra manual lists it for their 130 tmk's, but it seems that powder might be a little fast for a 24" barrel.
I'm trying to find some other powders besides the tried and true h4350 and 6.5 staball. With component availability what it is, I'm looking for options.
I'm trying to find some other powders besides the tried and true h4350 and 6.5 staball. With component availability what it is, I'm looking for options.
Never tried ar-comp but did try VV N555 and found it a good shooting alternative to H4350
AR Comp will work with 120/130 weight bullets, but is definitely on the fast side for 6.5CM. Varget is a better choice, though both are really scarce at the moment. ARC is my powder of choice for 6.5 Grendel and excellent in 223. If you do work up ARC loads, proceed carefully beyond 35-36 grains. Pic below was three different charges with 120 Scenars in a 20” barrel, though primer pockets took it very hard.
Got to try out varget with 130gr tmk's friday. I was very impressed. Shot my personal best in my home-built rifle, but didn't get any velocity numbers due to my chrono dieing on me just prior to shooting these. This was out of a 24" x-caliber barrel.
130gr TMK
37.4grs varget
new hornady brass
fgm210m primers
2.800" coal
Got slightly flattened primers and 1 light swipe out of this 4 shot group. Will be going back and trying 37.1-37.7gr loads when I get my chronograph back.
Attachments
Last edited:
Ok fellas, need some help understanding what I'm missing here. Went to the range today. Shot a load that was .1 gr under the hornady listed starting charge, and it chrono'd 60 fps ABOVE the velocity for the MAX charge.
Rifle details:
24" x-caliber, 1-8 tw, 5R
KVP 5.6oz buffer
Sprinco orange buffer spring
Load details:
Hornady 130gr ELDM
41.0grs H4350
Brand new Hornady brass
FGM210M primers
2.800" coal
I had loaded some of these a while back, and shot them up to 41.9grs, and began getting burrs from the ejector swipe. Didn't understand it then either, but thought I'd come home and figure it out. Obviously, I haven't figured it out. The only guess is have is Hornady has incorrect data listed for that load. I shot other loads with different bullets and powders, and they were running where they should have been, within reason.
Ihve shot loads with 6.5 staball and VARGET and they were fine.
I swear, I'm not losing my mind.
Edit: The hornady manual list 41.1grs for a starting charge, with 42.8grs as max, for the 130gr ELDM. I was shooting 41.0grs at 2760 fps avg.
Rifle details:
24" x-caliber, 1-8 tw, 5R
KVP 5.6oz buffer
Sprinco orange buffer spring
Load details:
Hornady 130gr ELDM
41.0grs H4350
Brand new Hornady brass
FGM210M primers
2.800" coal
I had loaded some of these a while back, and shot them up to 41.9grs, and began getting burrs from the ejector swipe. Didn't understand it then either, but thought I'd come home and figure it out. Obviously, I haven't figured it out. The only guess is have is Hornady has incorrect data listed for that load. I shot other loads with different bullets and powders, and they were running where they should have been, within reason.
Ihve shot loads with 6.5 staball and VARGET and they were fine.
I swear, I'm not losing my mind.
Edit: The hornady manual list 41.1grs for a starting charge, with 42.8grs as max, for the 130gr ELDM. I was shooting 41.0grs at 2760 fps avg.
The Hornady load data for this specific combo is fucked up. I went through this same dance. It shows h4350 as one of the slowest powders for the 130gr. 42.5gr seems to be the magic number for most people, myself included.
Second, running 42.5gr with a 130 Berger OTM. Haven’t gotten a chance to speed check it but no pressure signs in multiple rifles.
What kind of velocity are you getting? I'm at 2760-2770 with 41grs. 41.9 gives me some nasty ejector swipe burrs.
Last edited:
What Hornady says is irrelevant. I havent consulted a loading manual in nearly a decade.
Find a starting point and work up to find the load you like.
I landed on a 140gr ELDM at 2740fps with 41.4grs of H4350 at 2.75" COAL.
Find a starting point and work up to find the load you like.
I landed on a 140gr ELDM at 2740fps with 41.4grs of H4350 at 2.75" COAL.
The spring and buffer will help, but can you adjust the gas? My first 6.5C AR10 ran like a clock with just an adjustable gas block. Still does.
My second I had a 6mm Creedmoor that would give pressure signs at any loading. Swipes, craters, pierced and blown primers. And this was even with the charges at yes lowest on multiple tables.
Got tired of messing with it and rebarreled to a 6.5C. Craters and hit and miss piercings with swipes with just gas block running. An H2 config of the buffer along with the heaviest buffer spring and tuning the gas now has that rifle running upper end of the tables with no signs whatsoever.
Friend is working through similar issues with his AR10 right now, but his is 7-08.
AR10’s are a different animal and throwing different calibers at them exhibits weird function and signals.
Not an expert on anything, but cycle/timing seems to be the key with this gas platform. Hopefully you find an answer. I have both my 6.5’s and love them. Shoot them all the time suppressed and not. Never a hiccup. Thinking I will build another upper with the 6mm barrel and see if that can be tuned to behave or if it’s really the barrel/chamber.
My second I had a 6mm Creedmoor that would give pressure signs at any loading. Swipes, craters, pierced and blown primers. And this was even with the charges at yes lowest on multiple tables.
Got tired of messing with it and rebarreled to a 6.5C. Craters and hit and miss piercings with swipes with just gas block running. An H2 config of the buffer along with the heaviest buffer spring and tuning the gas now has that rifle running upper end of the tables with no signs whatsoever.
Friend is working through similar issues with his AR10 right now, but his is 7-08.
AR10’s are a different animal and throwing different calibers at them exhibits weird function and signals.
Not an expert on anything, but cycle/timing seems to be the key with this gas platform. Hopefully you find an answer. I have both my 6.5’s and love them. Shoot them all the time suppressed and not. Never a hiccup. Thinking I will build another upper with the 6mm barrel and see if that can be tuned to behave or if it’s really the barrel/chamber.
What length gas system do you have on that 24" barrel?
As @Wile_Coyote noted, gas guns can show traditional pressure signs when nowhere near max safe pressures due to the system unlocking early.
If you're running a rifle length gas system without an adjustable gas block that might be the cause of the pressure signs while nowhere near what many others have found to be a sweet spot or over safe operating pressures.
Rifle+2 gas length. I've adjusted the gas to the point that I'm 2 clicks above functioning issues. What is confusing is that this issue only occurs with H4350. I've shot varget and 6.5 staball up to book max without getting the heavy ejector swipes/burrs.
I had a similar issue, I have a 26” 1:8 twist Bartlein barrel. I found an awesome node at 2806 FPS with a 6 FPS ES (H4350 40.5 grains &CCI MILSPEC primers) that would chew up every third Peterson case or so (others would look fine). I switched to Lapua brass and installed a JP High Pressure bolt and so far the issue has not returned. Maybe try different brass? Also, get a primer pocket gauge to see if you are truly at pressure.
I used 42 grains of H4350 with FED210s out of a 22” Seekins and the brass (Peterson) looks fine.
I'm using a RCA high pressure bolt in a toolcraft carrier.
My condition is similar. It doesn't burr every case, but enough of them to concern me. I do have a primer pocket gauge, but haven't had time to check them yet.
Weird that it only happens with 4350. That has been real stable for me. I am running the RCA HP BCG in my newest 6.5 and it works well. The other has a JP HP bolt in a toolcraft carrier, but even with a standard bolt it never left a mark or messed with a primer.
I am not versed on sprinco springs, I have JP SCS's running in mine in H2 for both. The newer 6.5 I had to use the heaviest spring that came with the SCS.
SLR gas blocks on both, neither more than a couple clicks above bolt lockback function. The older 6.5 has a 22" barrel with standard rifle length gas and like I said, never a problem. The newer has a 22" barrel with a +2 gas and it would still beat on cases until all the combination tuning.
I am not versed on sprinco springs, I have JP SCS's running in mine in H2 for both. The newer 6.5 I had to use the heaviest spring that came with the SCS.
SLR gas blocks on both, neither more than a couple clicks above bolt lockback function. The older 6.5 has a 22" barrel with standard rifle length gas and like I said, never a problem. The newer has a 22" barrel with a +2 gas and it would still beat on cases until all the combination tuning.
I'm just about out of adjustment. The only thing that I haven't tried is a heavier buffer. Another member on here spoke of an 8 or 9 oz. buffer he was running, but I don't know where he sourced it from. I am running the strongest spring that sprinco offers, a KVP 5.6oz buffer, and the block adjusted open just enough to function.
I guess if I want to keep from chewing up my brass, I'll either have to load below starting charge, or use a different powder. Varget nor 6.5 staball has done this, at roughly the same velocities.
So, I just checked the primer pockets on the cases with burrs. They checked good, still very tight. I also measured the case body at the web, just above the extractor groove. I am seeing .003" growth at the web, versus brand new, unfired cases. What amount of growth points to high pressure?
I looked at my data from my last range trip (yesterday), and I shot some 145gr barnes match burners at almost the same velocity (2730 fps), but loaded with 6.5 staball. Not so much as a swipe on those cases. I'm stumped.
I looked at my data from my last range trip (yesterday), and I shot some 145gr barnes match burners at almost the same velocity (2730 fps), but loaded with 6.5 staball. Not so much as a swipe on those cases. I'm stumped.
All of the brass was new. The brass in question measured .469" after firing, the staball loaded brass was slightly smaller at .467"-.468". Virgin brass measures .466"
Good.I think 6.5 sb is what I'm gonna run with. It shoots good for me, and is actually easier to find in my area.
I’m running the 130ELD and H4350. You should find a great node around 42.0 -42.5gr. I’d start at 41 but that’s just me.
My JP was eating brass and showing pressure signs well below max loads with Lapua brass. I went through the dance of adjusting the gas and buffers and springs with not much effect. One day I was sitting at my bench and I happened to try and fit a bullet into a fired case and it wouldn’t fit. So I turned down the necks on a dozen cases and the pressure went away. Then I switched to Staball and and it got even better. Now my cases look as good as ones fired in a bolt gun. Before and after.
Here is a link to JP reloading recommendations
Attachments
Last edited:
I would be calling JP and telling them your chamber sucks.
You shouldn't have to turn the neck on a factory rifle. Especially a gas gun factory rifle.
I just can't understand why it only happens with H4350. I've run 6.5 staball and varget loads up to or near max with no issues, but 41.0grs of H4350 will leave nasty ejector burrs on my brass.
Same shit happens to me. Shittiest part is the load has a repeatable single digit ES.
Don’t fight it. Use what works in your gun. I use h4350 in my bolt gun and staball in my ar10.
Every gun is different. I am at 42.5 H4350 with a 130 hybrid and brass is fine. Shoots great. Start low and work your way up, or find what works best in your gun.
Rifle is a Seekins SP10 with TBAC Ultra 7 suppressor. Had a little slip up with the MagnetoSpeed, as you can see in the first pic. I guess I didn't tighten the bayonet to the Arca adapter well enough and it slipped after shot 2, so I missed the next 3
More data:
Everything fired out of an SP10 with TBAC Ultra 7 suppressor
Any suggestions on how to tighten up the groups? I swear it's not that hard for me with a bolt gun, but for some reason, it seems like my groups are all over the place. One shot slightly right, next shot left, third shot back to right, fourth is back left, fifth splits the difference (like literally that's how shooting the 120 Match Burners went. You can see two on the left, two on the right, and one splitting the difference)? WTF?! I know big frame ARs are a different beast, but I'm normally not this shitty
Everything fired out of an SP10 with TBAC Ultra 7 suppressor
Any suggestions on how to tighten up the groups? I swear it's not that hard for me with a bolt gun, but for some reason, it seems like my groups are all over the place. One shot slightly right, next shot left, third shot back to right, fourth is back left, fifth splits the difference (like literally that's how shooting the 120 Match Burners went. You can see two on the left, two on the right, and one splitting the difference)? WTF?! I know big frame ARs are a different beast, but I'm normally not this shitty
Last edited:
Hmm. All I can say is my COAL seems to make a big difference in my groups. My gun likes it's 6.5 CM at 2.800 with 140 ELD-M. This seems to be the opposite of what the bolt gun folks do. Factory Hornady Match is loaded to about 2.815 ish. I'm shooting with either an Omega 300 or a Griffin 30SD-K. The suppressors do act like a tuner on your barrel.
Good luck.
Good luck.
My 130 hybrid load measures 2.805 and the 123 scenes is 2.76
Well, every chamber is going to like a certain COAL for a specific bullet because basically each type of bullet likes a certain jump to the lands etc. So, try loading groups of 5 of 1 type of bullet for various lengths. Maybe 5 thousandths apart? You should be able to see the groups looking different for each group, then you can try fine tuning around whatever group looks best. That's basically what I did. So 2.800, 2.805, 2.810, 2.815, 2.820, 2.825. But my gun liking 140 ELD-Ms at 2 800 says nothing about what my gun would like in a 130 Hybrid.
Yeah
40-43 0f h4350 seems to be the sweet spot, I go between 41.8 and 42.8 usually depending on barrel length
I'd start about 39.2..... you might have a fast batch of powder. I don't have my notes in front of me, but i think in my ar with h4350 the sweet spot was 40.7 i think
That’s the exact load that I use… I need to look at what I am specifically using for the proof barrel in my LMT MWS.
Basically, to emulate Hornady, 147 factory TAP, the bullet needs to be going 2720FPS in an 18in barrel.
2720 with a 147 is pretty fast. In warm weather I get that from my 18" barrel with a max load of StaBall 6.5 and 140's and I'm at 4,600' altitude. If I load too hot I get early extraction issues despite min (15%) gas and a 9.5 oz buffer with the strongest spring. So, I'll settle for 2690'ish with 140's.
2720 is the OEM 147Gr ammo in my TRG-22,w/ bartlein bbl. The Proof barrel on the MWS shoots exactly the same with no FTE or any oddities. Certainly no pressure signs.
I wanted to keep them basically the same so I could use the same ballistic calculator data, and swap out the rifles if necessary.
I wanted to keep them basically the same so I could use the same ballistic calculator data, and swap out the rifles if necessary.
Where did you source that buffer from?
I got both the heavy buffer and strong spring here: https://heavybuffers.com/
Any of you guys shooting Proof CF barrels? Any known good loads for those 6.5CM AR barrels? I just built a 24" one and am starting load dev.
Currently have 140 & 147 ELDM's to try out (and an assortment of factory ammo) and have a couple lbs of 6.5 Staball and H4350.
Currently have 140 & 147 ELDM's to try out (and an assortment of factory ammo) and have a couple lbs of 6.5 Staball and H4350.
I run a 22" Prood CF barrel on one of my AR10's. I have run both H4350 and StaBALL 6.5 in mine. I dont have exact numbers right in front of me as I am at work, but will check when I get home.
I want to say that nodes I found were in the mid-upper range of the powder table(s) on mine. I usually run 147 ELD-M's on mine with my handloads, but they have been accurate with the 140 Hornady BTHP as well. I have not run the 140 ELD-M's in any of them. Again, I will check my log later and post up what loads I am running.
