- Thread starter Sportin Wood
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Hi there, having troubles finding decent starting point for Vihtavuori N555 and ELD-M 147gr, any experiences?
Their listed data shows 144 and then go to 153, guess the 147 wasn't available when they did their testing. And while Hornady lists a few VVN powders in their 6 & 6.5 data, they seam to use only the slower powders ?? Needless to say, use either the 144 or 152 starting loads and work up.
N555 Is a fairly new powder and the 147 ELDMs are unobtanium around here, which means there is not much loading data going around. I think I'll start with 37,8 and work my way up
140gr eldm
41 5gr H4350
Cci450
Lapua virgin srp brass mandrel sized @ .262"
2.820" oal
Here are reloads using the same data with 2x fireformed brass. Annealed after each firing. Redding s die with SAC .288" bushing and .262 mandrel.
41 5gr H4350
Cci450
Lapua virgin srp brass mandrel sized @ .262"
2.820" oal
Here are reloads using the same data with 2x fireformed brass. Annealed after each firing. Redding s die with SAC .288" bushing and .262 mandrel.
Gents,
Trying to make some reloading decisions and thought this is the best place to get it
Context: I was heavily into pistol games 15 years ago and reloaded 9mm/45acp with a Dillion 1050 for 5-6 years. Overall enjoyable experience - able to produce the loads I wanted for the games I played, and cost per Rnd was 20-30% less if you didn't figure in your time or equipment cost. All of that equipment got sold due to a move about 8 years ago
Today - I have gotten into long range precision rifle and thinking about getting back into reloading. I have been shooting factory ammo (Primarily 6.5CM / 6CM Hornady 147eldm match) for the last year or so.
Questions:
- How bad is the challenge with components? With patients can you pretty much find what you are looking for to replicate something similar to the above mentioned load?
- A Hornady 6.5eldm match round is currently selling for $2.00 +. Any kind of feel for what you might be able to replicate that round for price wise? I know there are alot of variables here, but hoped someone might be able to estimate that the components overall are roughly X, or you would probably save X%sih.
I see it as an enjoyable hobby and such dont mind want to needle down too far on my time... Just trying to understand if the current market turmoil made it a bad time to get in, and if some degree of cost savings is still viable
Thank you for the thoughts
Trying to make some reloading decisions and thought this is the best place to get it
Context: I was heavily into pistol games 15 years ago and reloaded 9mm/45acp with a Dillion 1050 for 5-6 years. Overall enjoyable experience - able to produce the loads I wanted for the games I played, and cost per Rnd was 20-30% less if you didn't figure in your time or equipment cost. All of that equipment got sold due to a move about 8 years ago
Today - I have gotten into long range precision rifle and thinking about getting back into reloading. I have been shooting factory ammo (Primarily 6.5CM / 6CM Hornady 147eldm match) for the last year or so.
Questions:
- How bad is the challenge with components? With patients can you pretty much find what you are looking for to replicate something similar to the above mentioned load?
- A Hornady 6.5eldm match round is currently selling for $2.00 +. Any kind of feel for what you might be able to replicate that round for price wise? I know there are alot of variables here, but hoped someone might be able to estimate that the components overall are roughly X, or you would probably save X%sih.
I see it as an enjoyable hobby and such dont mind want to needle down too far on my time... Just trying to understand if the current market turmoil made it a bad time to get in, and if some degree of cost savings is still viable
Thank you for the thoughts
Components are increasingly available (use the discord, have your info pre loaded and be ready to just pay what it costs when it’s available), but not cheap and there are purchase quantity limits - which really adds to the primer and powder costs, which have already come up.
Right now, I’d ballpark ELDMs at.45 per, powder at .25 per, primers at .15 per, and cases $1 each to start. Depending on how you amortized the brass and value your time (both at the pc trying to get components and at the bench) it’s not saving a whole lot.
Have to agree with T-Rex. If you enjoy the hobby, then by all means get the required kit and reload for accuracy, so optimized beyond what factory ammo will give you in terms of SD and group size.
I have tested 6.5 CM Berger match factory ammo and got SDs between 8 and 12 fps. The 100 yard 5 shot group size was around 0.35” from an MPA comp /chassis rifle with a 26” heavy barrel. It is a challenge to compete with that via handloads. Possible but not straightforward. Even 140 gn Hornady match ammo gave similar group size at 100, with large sample SDs between 11 and 16 fps. Good enough out to 600 yards, if you need to hit 1 MOA steel targets.
I reload for accuracy, and reload monos in a magnum for ELR that you simply cannot buy, but i know for sure that i will never load enough ammo to get back the money i have spent on reloading gear to date. Happy with what i have, and not planning to sell, because i enjoy it.
But you can get superb medium/long range group size (and waterline) by using a good barrel tuner.
You could also reseat the bullets at a different (optimized) COAL, using enough tissue paper stuffed into an impact type bullet puller so that the bullet moves forward but does not dump out the powder, then reseat with an arbor press and a Wilson die (a $200 setup). As long as the SD is good (<10 fps), this can get you to 600-800 yards. A short fat barrel (22” or less) is remarkably insensitive to load specs and often shoots a range of weights really well. Super long ELR barrels and thin hunting barrels are more troublesome.
In the end you have to decide on YOUR overall goals: If you want to win long range BR competitions, or compete in F class or 2,500 yard ELR events, then yes you probably will have to reload. If your aim is simply enjoying your chosen shooting game and finishing in the top 50%, then that can be done with good quality factory ammo - and at fairly reasonable cost.
My main point is that the gap between superb hand loaded ammo and top quality factory ammo is not as large as it was 20 years ago….
Got a question for the peanut gallery…. So I’ve been reloading for a little while and keeping my COAL to basically what others have posted… and what’s in the Hornady loading manual. That is until I started measuring my jump. I’m shootings a Tikka t3x CTR w Berger 144 gr. I measure my jump / jam distance 6 ish times then knocked of 2 thousandths. The dummy cartridge loads perfectly no issue. Piece of tape on the back, no go. So I’m good no….. we’ll the COAL is now nearly 3”. He is a long shlong! Does anyone else load to this or near this COAL?!
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SAAMI freebore is close to 200 K... So a factory barrel going that far to touch doesn't surprise me.
I find the berger hybrids do very well with long jumps, so I don't load longer than will fit in my magazine. Somewhere in the 2.850 region.
I find the berger hybrids do very well with long jumps, so I don't load longer than will fit in my magazine. Somewhere in the 2.850 region.
Quick question. I have searched. F@#£ all info anywhere really. Chopped one of my 6.5CM barrels to 16 inches for something different. I’m in Australia so my appropriate powders are Varget or H4350. No RL 16 etc. Is Varget best for short 6.5? Playing with the 123ELD-M…. 38.9 Varget gives 2750fps but that’s very mild and will move on up, and 43.3 H4350 gave similar. My usual 140 ELD-M load of 41.9 H4350 gives me 2620fps. My PRS comps only go out to 500m so thinking this willl be a fun rifle for it. So is Varget best for shorter barrel with lighter bullet? Cheers
Lyman published a " Long Range Precision Rifle Reloading Handbook" and in it they list loads for the 6.5 CM. for the 123 SMK, they list 38.4 gn. of Varget as their "accuracy" load.
Don't know if you have access to RL 15 or it's equivalent, but I've had good results with it and the 123's.
Don't know if you have access to RL 15 or it's equivalent, but I've had good results with it and the 123's.
Have a stupid question for the shooting gallery…. So I came into my possession a bunch of Berger Elite Hunting bullets in 6.5 (140gr). While I do hunt I mostly snipe paper from really far away…. My favorite bullets however are normally the 144 or the 140 gr hybrids but with the current state of getting bergers in general I’ll take what I can get…. What are folks thoughts on using elites for plinking, long range target shooting only. What the difference in BC? How well will they shoot compared to hybrid target rounds, etc….
Thanks y’all!
Btw I’m loading them w stayball and h4350.
Thanks y’all!
Btw I’m loading them w stayball and h4350.
Haven't tried it myself, but I've heard of guys running the Elite Hunters as a substitute for not being able to find Hybrids over the last couple years. Apparently they run incredibly well as an alternative. Again, haven't tried it myself, but I'd hazard a guess would dig up some threads on it here or over at AS.
I mean that’s the situation I’m in… I have plenty of Hornady bullets and a few Noslers but I love me some Berger…. So it is what it is.
H4350 vs Staball for 140+ gr bullets…. Thoughts? Staball is supposed to be slower burning….
I've had excellent results with both running Hornady ELDM's and HPBT's.
I'd pick whatever I had more of.
Both can work, but H4350 is significantly more temp stable than Staball 6.5, just very hard to find. [Many double base powders (like RL-26) produce a lot of speed, sometimes 100-180 fps more, but are also more temp sensitive.]
Staball is supposed to be the best most temp stable ball powder ever, and it is, but ALL ball powders are more temp sensitivity than the so called Extreme (extruded) Hodgedon single base powders. [The marketing hype surrounding Staball is a little excessive…]
Past 800 yards, single base extruded powders with good temperature stability will often outperform a load that runs 100-150 fps faster (therefore 5% less wind drift) but suffers from temp stability issues, because vertical dispersions could increase by 200% to 300%. Below 400 yards, it is much less of an issue.
If Staball is all you can find, just load two batches and keep them separated and clearly marked, one for hot days/later time of day, and one for normal days or colder mornings, to keep your speed within the node (flat spot on the speed vs powder plot).
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This is great thank you! Question though, what do you mean by “because vertical dispersions could increase by 200% to 300%”. Not sure I follow.
In a world of temp sensitive powders, when temp increases, so does velocity, so does vertical stringing.
Ok… so another dumb question for here: Has anyone ever looked at velocities and or accuracies as a function of neck tension? Meaning, hold everything constant, load, seating depth, etc. and adjust neck tension. If so what are the results? How does it change? Thanks!
Yes “neck tension” (really interference fit) is a potential tuning variable, but it is a secondary tuning handle. I would start with 2 thou of neck tension/interference fit, and then tune powder load to stay right in the middle of the speed flat spot (node), then adjust seating depth for best group size (it changes barrel timing, so bullet exit time, which changes the angle the barrel is pointing in the whip cycle), and if the group is good to go, i would stop there.
Higher or lower neck tension also changes bullet exit time (and therefore positive compensation), so in some ways it is an alternative to seating depth, but it also affects combustion. It is harder to control actual bullet grip/seating force (achieve consistency), than changing bullet seating depth.
The application of dry or wet lube also affects actual bullet grip, also annealing of the neck (flame vs AMP), and brushing the inside of the necks, etc. I like to paint Neolube nr 2 on the inside of the neck and on the bullet, that brought down my SD from 8 to 4.6 fps. [If you are already dealing with a properly tuned load.]
If my best efforts at load development failed to get a 1/3” group at 100, i would first try 2 other primer brands/types, but if that did not help, i would go up on neck tension to 3 or 3.5 thou and make sure the inside of the neck is correctly chamfered.
Note that such high levels of interference fit means you are resizing the neck using the bullet, which changes the Vickers hardness of the brass in the neck, and that changes brass springback. That in effect is undoing a portion of your annealing efforts (making the brass slightly harder, via work hardening). [Changing/reducing the Aztec code by 2 or 3 if you use an AMP machine achieves the same net effect. Not recommending this approach, just pointing it out.]
Btw: You don’t want the pressure ring at the base of the bullet to get cut off due to super high interference fit and sharp edges. Very obvious normally as it leaves a bunch of thin copper rings around your press area. So chamfer properly.
In short: You should get by with ONLY powder charge and seating depth probably 80% of the time.
Alternatively, a barrel tuner allows you to load to mag length and (usually) to avoid seating depth optimization. [Eric Cortina makes a nice brake/tuner combo that i have used with good results.]
Best advice: Try to keep your reloading approach dead simple. Only go deeper down the proverbial rabbit hole if truly needed.
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Haha I think I’m already down the rabbit hole
. I’m an engineer / applied maths guy by training, grew up hunting w my dad and only got back into shooting recently. Fell in love w the idea of shooting long range and then discovered the science and engineering of it all…on top of the skills. There are so many components to this hobby that I’m almost overwhelmed (in a good way) of all the variables to control for! My wife and bank account are not happy however . That’s said 11 yo son loves the hobby as well and it’s been a great way to intro him into the world of firearms. Last edited:
Just got some 130 Berger VLD targets for my Tikka T3x Tac A1…..If i load to .020 off the lands or so the COAL is about 2.950 and there is virtually no bearing surface in the case neck. What do y’all think about loading to say 2.900 and then adjusting in from there to try to find a depth node. Anyone done this with luck or any input? Thanks!
My Tikka has a max mag length of approx. 2.950 but i think 2.90 is going to be the longest I can load and have enough bearing surface in the neck of the case. I guess I will load there and then work my way back in 20 thou increments or so
Have not yet discovered one….
ALL: Please post if you know of such a list!
I wish the companies producing reloading manuals would test for temp stability and report that in their publications, for the max load, for each caliber. [It varies depending on the case geometry and whether it is a compressed load or not.]
Will consume 10% more components and time in their testing, but would be a real good reason to buy their book…
I usually go to the web site of the powder maker.
Load dev and expectations: So I am currently running a stock 20” Tikka barrel on my CTR. I’m currently struggling to reach higher velocities w h4350 and 140, 144 and 147 grain bullets, both Hornady and Bergers. Im floating bw the 2500 and 2700 depending on bullet weight… and hitting max loads according to the Hornady guides… I am ticking over about .5gr here and there over “max” book charge though w no signs of pressure.
That said, due to the shorter barrel does it make sense to just stick w lighter bullets until I get something longer? Or do I keep pushing hotter loads to get more velocity?
I’m analyzing for nodes and seeing a few but I’d prefer them at higher velocities.
Net net, do I go down to smaller bullets and sacrifice BC in exchange for higher velocities or not…?
That said, due to the shorter barrel does it make sense to just stick w lighter bullets until I get something longer? Or do I keep pushing hotter loads to get more velocity?
I’m analyzing for nodes and seeing a few but I’d prefer them at higher velocities.
Net net, do I go down to smaller bullets and sacrifice BC in exchange for higher velocities or not…?
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I "had" the same rifle. I still have the action, but I'm on my 3rd barrel. Now, the 20" factory barrel. I ran it with H4350 and RL16 with the 140's and had zero issues. Yes, it was slower than everyone else out there (like, 2685 with a can) but, SD was solid, it was stupid accurate, and gave me no grief at distance. Just a little more wind holding then the other guys.
If what you have load wise, with any of what you listed is working (accurate, repeatable, and with good SD) run it. You'll waste barrel life and components chasing what you want, when what you have is already good enough. Once you burn out that barrel, or decide you really want something faster, then move up to a 26-28" custom.
“Be happy with what you have. Upgrade when it’s time.” Sound advise . Out of curiosity how long was your barrel life? Rounds, years? Thanks!
. Out of curiosity how long was your barrel life? Rounds, years? Thanks! I pulled it early, so hard to say. I had around 1300 rounds on it before I upgraded. At the time I was thinking a longer, custom barrel would give me more. Still just as accurate as the factory, yes it was 100FPS faster with less powder, but I still suck at reading wind. Unless you're pushing it really hard and not letting it cool down between strings, you should easily be able to hit the 2,500 round mark or more.
I'm outta town for a few days but if you hold onto them til then I have some 140 hybrids I'd probably trade. My main interest is hunting. I'd need to check quantities though when I'm back.
See my post here:
www.snipershide.com
Vihtavuori Powder for 6.5 Creedmoor?
Anyone use any VV powders for 6.5 CM? If so could you share your load and results. Thanks, Paul
www.snipershide.com First time reloader here. Possiblity stupid questions to follow. I am wondering if I can get some advise on interpreting some data I gather during a OWC test.
The targets have the charge weights written below the colors. There are three shots on each target.
I am using the following components:
H4350
140gr. Hornaday ELD-M
Once fired Lapua Brass
Federal 210M primers
These were fired from a stock RPR (24" barrel).
I am tempted to use the node at 41.6-41.9gr for the next round of testing but I am a bit concerned since this is above the 41.5gr max powder load I am seeing from Hodgdon and on this thread. I did not see any obvious overpressure signs; the bolt lift was normal and the primers looks normal. I am also worried about a lower barrel life with this load. Otherwise, the next best node I am seeing is between 39.5gr and 40.1gr.
Should develop a load between 41.6-41.9gr, should I try between 39.5gr. and 40.1gr, or should I try something else?
The targets have the charge weights written below the colors. There are three shots on each target.
I am using the following components:
H4350
140gr. Hornaday ELD-M
Once fired Lapua Brass
Federal 210M primers
These were fired from a stock RPR (24" barrel).
I am tempted to use the node at 41.6-41.9gr for the next round of testing but I am a bit concerned since this is above the 41.5gr max powder load I am seeing from Hodgdon and on this thread. I did not see any obvious overpressure signs; the bolt lift was normal and the primers looks normal. I am also worried about a lower barrel life with this load. Otherwise, the next best node I am seeing is between 39.5gr and 40.1gr.
Should develop a load between 41.6-41.9gr, should I try between 39.5gr. and 40.1gr, or should I try something else?
It is hard to interpret 3 shot groups. If you shot 10 3 shot groups with Hornady ELD-M what would they look like? Your big groups and small groups could just be luck. I shoot 5-10 shot groups during load development. Closer I get, more shots to prove it is real.
Without Chronograph speeds, it is also hard to see wheer the load is getting a consistent burn with low SD.
I would start with a box of factory 140 ELD-M and chrono it.
Load single rounds with same bullet and COAL and find the matching velocity assuming factory shot well from your rifle.
Load up 5 or more of that charge, .4 below, .2 below, .2 above and .4 above. Shoot and Chrono each.
Then you should have a good idea of where your sweet spot is. Then play with different COAL.
Without Chronograph speeds, it is also hard to see wheer the load is getting a consistent burn with low SD.
I would start with a box of factory 140 ELD-M and chrono it.
Load single rounds with same bullet and COAL and find the matching velocity assuming factory shot well from your rifle.
Load up 5 or more of that charge, .4 below, .2 below, .2 above and .4 above. Shoot and Chrono each.
Then you should have a good idea of where your sweet spot is. Then play with different COAL.
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41.6ish is your load.
Same aggregate POI all the way up to 41.9, which is probably a bit spicy so I'd start at the lower end of it.
Also, put a minute of elevation on the gun and move your POI away from your POA. Put the rounds in the square above and stop shooting out your POA.
You'll be surprised by the results.
Same aggregate POI all the way up to 41.9, which is probably a bit spicy so I'd start at the lower end of it.
Also, put a minute of elevation on the gun and move your POI away from your POA. Put the rounds in the square above and stop shooting out your POA.
You'll be surprised by the results.
Personally I would stay under the 41.0. You have several great groups, I like the 39.5 or 40.1. I shoot that exact load in 2 CM with the exception of the brass, I am using star line and the both have accuracy nodes at the 2720ish FPS. I would run 39.5-40.5 in at least 5 shot groups AND run through a chrono to find out what it likes. Don’t spend to much time in the weeds looking for that perfect load. Find a load that repeats .5-.75 MOA and go shoot it till the barrel burns out!
Anyone running 140gr ELDms and Superformance? Care to share results?
Anyone got any insight for load data using 127 Barnes LRX or Hammer Hunters out of an 18” barrel? Velocities and such
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Have you tried running simulations? Such as Gordon’s Reloading Tool or Quick Loads? They aren’t perfect but can give you a good idea of about what to expect.
Here is simulations run for h4350 w 127 Barnes. From 43 Gr down to 41.2. @DEWD_STUFF let me know and I can send you an output file.
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Holy cow thanks for the help! I have not tried quick load or Gordon’s.
On hand I will def be using H4350 for the hunting bullets since I’ll be crossing state lines and hunting different seasons, want the stability. For general plinking I’ll use Win 760 and IMR 4831 with 130 grain OTM’s.
CCI 450 primers and Peterson brass.
All out of the 18” barrel. I doubt I’ll get into the 2900’s using H4350.
Oh I forgot to adjust the barrel length in the sim but will do it later and send you a pm.
Sincerely appreciate it!
