PRS Talk 6.5CM in Tactical Division?

Rob01

Cool Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Full Member
Minuteman
Jul 9, 2001
13,721
7,304
NC
Probably to limit gaming and keep the bullet weights in the "normal" usage range for the cartridges if I had to guess.
 

308pirate

Gunny Sergeant
Banned !
Minuteman
  • Apr 25, 2017
    21,766
    33,435
    I don't understand the limit on bullet weights? I'd use my 223 at matches if I could use 80.5 Fullbores.

    I can sorta see it as they're limiting ammo to something like what you can buy in the store that will run through a magazine.

    Whenever you have equipment rules that are anything other than "anything goes" (like USPSA Open division), someone somewhere is going to be pissed that their pet peeve isn't accommodated.

    As long as everyone is held to the same rules, doesn't matter.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Islander and Rob01

    308pirate

    Gunny Sergeant
    Banned !
    Minuteman
  • Apr 25, 2017
    21,766
    33,435
    The challenge is this niche market isn’t currently big enough to sustain both communities that are found in every game/sport.

    Competitive
    Recreation

    Some will fall into both, but many will be one or the other.

    This is typically solved via professional leagues and amateur leagues. All major televised sports do this, pool, bowling, golf, etc etc.

    You have the option to pick (unless you don’t make the cut for professional) which you want to try or focus on.

    USPSA is a hell of a lot bigger than PRS is now (and likely ever will be) and there are no "pro" and "amateur" stages. Everyone shoots the same problem.

    This "pro" vs "amateur" thing is just stupid. Everyone is an amateur, just some are better than others.

    Figure out a classification system and put people in them. Done. There's your brackets.

    Sporting Clays in the UK has a model that would work for PRS classifications with some adaptation. Like PRS, every sporting clays tournament is a different course of fire. Nothing standard about it. Still whoever runs that in the UK has a way to calculate percentages based on match finish. Then bell curve the percentages.

    Sporting Clays in the US does it differently. Here you earn "punches" (aka points) based on your finishing position. Every move up in class takes certain number of punches, and the higher you go the more punches it takes to move up.

    None of this is higher math and it's relatively simple to do with reported scores and computers in any number of ways.

    Like we've talked about before, this wheel exists, there's no need to invent a new one. Just put it on a different rim and mount it.
     

    Feniks Technologies

    Premium Ammunition and Loading Supplies
    Supporter
    Commercial Supporter
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Supporter+
    Nov 14, 2021
    1,496
    2,576
    South Texas
    USPSA is a hell of a lot bigger than PRS is now (and likely ever will be) and there are no "pro" and "amateur" stages. Everyone shoots the same problem.

    This "pro" vs "amateur" thing is just stupid. Everyone is an amateur, just some are better than others.

    Figure out a classification system and put people in them. Done. There's your brackets.

    Sporting Clays in the UK has a model that would work for PRS classifications with some adaptation. Like PRS, every sporting clays tournament is a different course of fire. Nothing standard about it. Still whoever runs that in the UK has a way to calculate percentages based on match finish. Then bell curve the percentages.

    Sporting Clays in the US does it differently. Here you earn "punches" (aka points) based on your finishing position. Every move up in class takes certain number of punches, and the higher you go the more punches it takes to move up.

    None of this is higher math and it's relatively simple to do with reported scores and computers in any number of ways.

    Like we've talked about before, this wheel exists, there's no need to invent a new one. Just put it on a different rim and mount it.

    Good points. However other games that are bigger than uspsa do things differently.

    Also doesn’t mean the prs crowd would gravitate towards it.

    For example, pool and billiards (and definitely snooker) are not lucrative and such in the US.

    However snooker is huge in the UK. Almost like golf here.


    I agree we should try to use the uspsa playbook and see if it works. Only way to find out.


    Regardless, prs stuff is such a ridiculously niche game…..it may just be destined to be a shit show.

    Every other year, someone else splinters off with their “great idea” and it fails or just causes more drama.

    Which is why I’m no longer attempting to make a league or run matches. I’ll just shoot and continue with other business ventures that are far more likely to succeed.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: 308pirate

    MDof2

    Gunny Sergeant
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Mar 6, 2020
    729
    644
    Magatopia
    As long as everyone is held to the same rules, doesn't matter.
    nail+hammer.jpg



    Now we're getting somewhere.....
     

    ma smith

    Major Hide Member
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Sep 29, 2020
    1,461
    991
    I don't understand the limit on bullet weights? I'd use my 223 at matches if I could use 80.5 Fullbores.
    First, you can shoot whatever you want, so run 223 if you have the components.

    For prizes and points, Tac requires essentially mk 262 ammo, or its equivalent.

    I mean you can handload it, but nothing will drastically outperform 262 ballistically and still fit nato spec mag.

    77 gr is typically max wt with nato spec OALs 2.26 and they all have about .190 g7 no matter brand

    Since you cant stuff high bc bullets like 80gr bergers 75 eldms etc into into saami/nato:AR mags , they are no go.
     
    Last edited:

    JBoomhauer

    Gunny Sergeant
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Feb 16, 2019
    630
    881
    @ma smith
    Most guys are running AICS mags and longer barreled bolt guns, you can get a bit more performance out of the heavier stuff compared to an AR.
     

    Rob01

    Cool Moderator
    Staff member
    Moderator
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Jul 9, 2001
    13,721
    7,304
    NC
    First, you can shoot whatever you want, so run 223 if you have the components.

    For prizes and points, Tac requires essentially mk 262 ammo, or its equivalent.

    I mean you can handload it, but nothing will drastically outperform 262 ballistically and still fit nato spec mag.

    77 gr is typically max wt with nato spec OALs 2.26 and they all have about .190 g7 no matter brand

    Since you cant stuff high bc bullets like 80gr bergers 75 eldms etc into into saami/nato:AR mags , they are no go.

    The 75 ELD is one of the more used bullets by .223 Tac shooters. Not many use AR mags as most use AICS with 2.550” oal so they fit fine.
     

    millertime2

    Private
    Supporter
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Supporter+
    Jan 16, 2010
    303
    39
    45
    Illinois, USA
    Its a Limited division. Its limited by caliber, bullet weight, and velocity.

    To open it up to anything goes in any aspect changes the integrity of the division. Everyone plays by the same rules.
    Yeah I understand It’s supposed to be closer to what “tactical“ or LE guys might use. I just dont know of any LE guys using 28” 308’s running 176 Atips for work guns or ammo. Seems like if that flys why can’t you use a 80.5 or 85.5 223 bullet.
     
    Last edited:

    308pirate

    Gunny Sergeant
    Banned !
    Minuteman
  • Apr 25, 2017
    21,766
    33,435
    Yeah I understand It’s supposed to be closer to what “tactical“ or LE guys might use. I just dont know of any LE guys using 28” 308’s running 176 Atips for work guns or ammo. Seems like if that flys what can’t you use a 80.5 or 85.5 223 bullet.

    That's just not how it works

    That's not how any of this works
     
    Last edited:

    Rob01

    Cool Moderator
    Staff member
    Moderator
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Jul 9, 2001
    13,721
    7,304
    NC
    Yeah I understand It’s supposed to be closer to what “tactical“ or LE guys might use. I just dont know of any LE guys using 28” 308’s running 176 Atips for work guns or ammo. Seems like if that flys what can’t you use a 80.5 or 85.5 223 bullet.
    No because 176 is less than 178 and 80.5 and 85.5 are more than 77. It’s not about what LE uses but the rules set forth there for the game.
     

    SmartDonkey

    Sergeant of the Hide
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Oct 18, 2018
    283
    258
    I can see both sides of this:

    Why handicap the people that put the time, effort, money into the sport? Or those that are just naturally better.

    But- most people don't find it that much fun to have their asses kicked. Some will still have fun, others will be motivated and get better. I would think a large group would decide that they are not up to the task and decide its not for them.

    I don't think that SH has a huge cowboy membership but this kind of reminds me of team roping. When everyone competed against everyone the same people would always win. (not a bad thing) Pretty soon the others realized that they didn't have a chance and they were just donating money to the same people every week- and stopped going. To try and get them back they came up with a number system.... everyone gets a number- the better you are the higher the number. And then they would have number roping divisions. Only teams below 4 can compete in this one, the next would be 6 and below etc. When people regularly placed high then they would have their number increased.

    They events didn't cost as much to enter- didn't pay as well either- but they did keep people competing and moving up through the ranks. Not sure how some kind of a system like that would work in PRS but I don't see it getting much bigger under the current setup.
     

    Birddog6424

    Sergeant
    Supporter
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Supporter+
  • Apr 25, 2014
    3,327
    2,983
    Boise, Idaho
    This is a little off subject, but there is already a Classification system in the PRS.

    Its been a work in progress, its taken some time to get it functioning, to figure out what works and what doesn't. But I think the changes we made last June are going to go a long ways towards evening out the playing field and getting people moved to the Classifications that match their skill level.

    Its performance based, plain and simple, based on a minimum of three Pro Series matches on the year, not counting the Finale.
     

    Birddog6424

    Sergeant
    Supporter
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Supporter+
  • Apr 25, 2014
    3,327
    2,983
    Boise, Idaho
    All this talk of what kicks ass and I'm over here competing with 223 in open using 75ELDs/90SMKs/95SMKs.;);)

    Run the numbers on a 75ELD doing 3000 and then run the numbers on whatever you want to compare it too. You might be surprised.
    It doesn't come as a surprise to me. I've competed with a 22 Creedmoor pushing 95gr SMKs at 3150fps. I've been using a 22BR for 3 years now running 88's at 3000fps and more recently, 85.5gr Berger Hybrids at 3040fps. Which is quickly becoming a favorite. That Hybrid is a hell of a nice bullet.

    I've steered away from the 95gr SMK due to some high standard deviations of BC and their propensity to pop their jackets at the worst times possible, but I totally agree with you that the right 22 caliber load performs amazingly well.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: ma smith

    beetroot

    Major Hide Member
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Apr 10, 2018
    2,104
    1,934
    All this talk of what kicks ass and I'm over here competing with 223 in open using 75ELDs/90SMKs/95SMKs.;);)

    Run the numbers on a 75ELD doing 3000 and then run the numbers on whatever you want to compare it too. You might be surprised.
    What barrel length and powder you doing that with?
    Thats smokin out of a vanilla 223.
     

    beetroot

    Major Hide Member
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Apr 10, 2018
    2,104
    1,934
    Not too hard to achieve with the right freebore and a 26”. I’m running just shy of 2900 with a suppressed 22” and no pressure signs
    What mags are you using?
    Been a while since I looked at extreme 223 loads, mag length was usually the limiting factor.
     

    Twitchy

    Private
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Nov 22, 2007
    284
    310
    St. Augustine, FL
    What barrel length and powder you doing that with?
    Thats smokin out of a vanilla 223.

    Current barrel is 28" with Varget. Throated L O N G. Much longer than the typically long .169. I didn't measure, rather I gave my smith a dummy round seated as long as my modified accurate mag would hold. I don't have pictures of my 75ELD groups, so the 95s will have to do.

    IMG_8542.jpeg
     

    Attachments

    • tempImageqivrXx.jpg
      tempImageqivrXx.jpg
      291.4 KB · Views: 28

    never_summer

    Trigger Slapper
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Oct 2, 2007
    566
    306
    San Antonio, Texas
    What mags are you using?
    Been a while since I looked at extreme 223 loads, mag length was usually the limiting factor.
    I personally use mdt polymer mags that allow you to load to 2.55” oal. I’m running a custom throat like above that I had my gunsmith chamber for the 80 eldm at almost max mag length, so my 75s are jumping a bit. If I could run 80s in tac class I would, but finishing up load development right now to try out this year.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: beetroot

    beetroot

    Major Hide Member
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Apr 10, 2018
    2,104
    1,934
    Current barrel is 28" with Varget. Throated L O N G. Much longer than the typically long .169. I didn't measure, rather I gave my smith a dummy round seated as long as my modified accurate mag would hold. I don't have pictures of my 75ELD groups, so the 95s will have to do.

    View attachment 7777666
    What mag is that?
    Is that 2.6 the COAL?
     

    Rob01

    Cool Moderator
    Staff member
    Moderator
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Jul 9, 2001
    13,721
    7,304
    NC
    What mags are you using?
    Been a while since I looked at extreme 223 loads, mag length was usually the limiting factor.

    I use the MDT poly mags in my .223 also. I use a standard .223 Wylde chamber and .020" off the lands the 75 ELD is right at 2.470" so plenty of room before the 2.550" limit in the mags. I run a 27" barrel and run them around 2950fps.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: beetroot

    Solo 43

    Sergeant of the Hide
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Jun 18, 2020
    137
    76
    I've put together a 223 PRS type rig and will be shooting my first match in Feb at Tehama Gun Club. The rifle is an ex-Palma rifle, throated specifically for 80+ grn bullets/trued up M700/Krieger and I put it in a KRG Bravo stock. The rifle, set up as a Palma rifle, was a laser with any 80's, but I only shot it slinged up/prone (you'd be surprised how small a group you can shoot at way). Looking over my load data from 20 yrs ago, it was shooting 80's between 2900 and 3050, depending on powder (30" barrel)....and I still have a buttload of ammo loaded for it. Shortest distance I ever shot it at was 300....anyway, I'm gonna shoot it w/whatever and I don't care what class I'm in. The days of me being at the top of the leader board are long over/I don't care....I'm just gonna shoot to have some fun. And....one of my ex-course rifles is a 6mm/107 Sierra's at 2950, which would be perfect. Got a ton of reloading components it to and am in the process of turning it into a PRS type rig.
     

    Twitchy

    Private
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Nov 22, 2007
    284
    310
    St. Augustine, FL
    What mag is that?
    Is that 2.6 the COAL?
    It's an Accurate Mag 223. I modified it a bit more than people usually do to get over 2.6". I completely cut the front portion of the clampshell insert off rather than just sanding/filing down the front nub that gets you 2.5". I'd have to go back and measure exactly, but it's over 2.6" which is why I put 2.6xx".
     

    FUNCTIONAL

    Dirty Civilian
    Full Member
    Minuteman
  • Feb 19, 2012
    1,480
    1,077
    Eastern, NC
    There are 2 things that bug me about TAC.

    1) I believe a weight limit should be put in place. If it's to be a division more geared for the leo/mil intentions you would be hard pressed to find any one running a 25-30lb rifle. Majority of Mil caps out around 18.5-19 lbs suppressed.

    2) there are no damn checks for anything, speed or bullet weight. I know for a fact people are using heavier bullets than allowed. I also highly suspect some of the top shooters in open and Tac are running faster than they are allowed based on they're behavior anytime a labradar is brought near them.

    The first is addressable and in my opinion should be. The second can be half taken care of by placing a labradar at a random stage but you'll never fully fix the second unfortunately.
     

    JBoomhauer

    Gunny Sergeant
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Feb 16, 2019
    630
    881
    I have seen a Labradar tucked in behind the PRS skills stage for that purpose.
     

    Birddog6424

    Sergeant
    Supporter
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Supporter+
  • Apr 25, 2014
    3,327
    2,983
    Boise, Idaho
    Speeds were checked at the 2021 Finale. It was easy with all the Tac class shooters squadded together.

    I agree on the weight limit. I do believe that should be another aspect of a limited division. But its another item to police.

    If someone wants to run the risk of running a heavier bullet, which makes them a cheater and risk being exposed as such, for such minimal gains, they are welcome to it.
     

    Rob01

    Cool Moderator
    Staff member
    Moderator
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Jul 9, 2001
    13,721
    7,304
    NC
    Got no problem with rifle weights as my .308 and .223 are both around 18 pounds. And if you need to cheat in this game with heavier bullets or speeds then you have bigger issues than not doing well in a match. Integrity is worth way more than a Tac win.
     

    Twitchy

    Private
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Nov 22, 2007
    284
    310
    St. Augustine, FL
    How heavy projectile do you think it's worth going in 223?
    Seems like you a are shooting pretty much every option 75gr+
    I've shot/competed a ton with 223 in PRS and F-Class. If I had to pick, I'd go with 75 ELDs at 3000 for Tac and 80 ELDs at 2900ish for Open. It boils down to the speed and BC (drop/windage) with those rounds versus the heavier projectiles. You can push 90/95SMKs at the bleeding edge to get better than the 75/80 mentioned above, but you'll be killing primer pockets in 1 or 2 firings. If I were sponsored by Lapua brass I'd entertain it. :LOL: With those 75/80 loads I never ran into a brass life issue. I killed a ton of brass pushing 90 SMKs to 2900+ and 95 SMKs to 2800+ in testing and in matches. All this is assuming 26"+ barrel and throated longer than you'll typically find in a SAMMI chamber to take advantage of the available magazine length.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Birddog6424

    beetroot

    Major Hide Member
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Apr 10, 2018
    2,104
    1,934
    I've shot/competed a ton with 223 in PRS and F-Class. If I had to pick, I'd go with 75 ELDs at 3000 for Tac and 80 ELDs at 2900ish for Open. It boils down to the speed and BC (drop/windage) with those rounds versus the heavier projectiles. You can push 90/95SMKs at the bleeding edge to get better than the 75/80 mentioned above, but you'll be killing primer pockets in 1 or 2 firings. If I were sponsored by Lapua brass I'd entertain it. :LOL: With those 75/80 loads I never ran into a brass life issue. I killed a ton of brass pushing 90 SMKs to 2900+ and 95 SMKs to 2800+ in testing and in matches. All this is assuming 26"+ barrel and throated longer than you'll typically find in a SAMMI chamber to take advantage of the available magazine length.
    That is far better velocity than I ever would've dreamed of.
    Way thinking of building a 22br or 22gt, but maybe 223AI throated long will be the go.
     

    Birddog6424

    Sergeant
    Supporter
    Full Member
    Minuteman
    Supporter+
  • Apr 25, 2014
    3,327
    2,983
    Boise, Idaho
    That is far better velocity than I ever would've dreamed of.
    Way thinking of building a 22br or 22gt, but maybe 223AI throated long will be the go.
    I have a 223AI and a 22BR. The 22BR or 22 Dasher is the way to go if you want a high performance 22 caliber.

    My buddy runs the 22GT. Its a good round. But it starts to push being over-bored and finicky. Barrel life is different with it.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Twitchy