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Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"...he was being treated for non-life-threatening injuries suffered when officers returned fire."
<span style="font-weight: bold">A failure of marksmanship fundamentals, or what?</span></div></div>
I would say that's an understatement. *shaking head*
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"...he was being treated for non-life-threatening injuries suffered when officers returned fire."
<span style="font-weight: bold">A failure of marksmanship fundamentals, or what?</span></div></div>
I would say that's an understatement. *shaking head*
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"...he was being treated for non-life-threatening injuries suffered when officers returned fire."
A failure of marksmanship fundamentals, or what? </div></div>
was he was still inside of his house and they were out side? or were they all outside?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The gunman fired on the officers late on Wednesday as they approached a home in a quiet residential neighborhood of Ogden, </div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"...he was being treated for non-life-threatening injuries suffered when officers returned fire."
A failure of marksmanship fundamentals, or what? </div></div>
was he was still inside of his house and they were out side? or were they all outside?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The gunman fired on the officers late on Wednesday as they approached a home in a quiet residential neighborhood of Ogden, </div></div>
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
This story has been pissin me off since I first heard about it, so much of this is not making sense. The guy shoots 5 and kills another, and they didn't kill him? Whats more why did they have to serve a warrant for marijuana at night? If they'd of simply showed up during the day and not charged in there probably wouldn't have had to been any shooting.
I'm not saying they were wrong, I'd give either party the benefit of the doubt. Except for the guy growing dope in his house, but nobody needs to die over this bullshit.
This story has been pissin me off since I first heard about it, so much of this is not making sense. The guy shoots 5 and kills another, and they didn't kill him? Whats more why did they have to serve a warrant for marijuana at night? If they'd of simply showed up during the day and not charged in there probably wouldn't have had to been any shooting.
I'm not saying they were wrong, I'd give either party the benefit of the doubt. Except for the guy growing dope in his house, but nobody needs to die over this bullshit.
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
Until police agencies cease with storming in people's houses, fully armed, in the middle of the night in order to prosecute a war on a plant, this will continue.
Did no one think to knock on the door like a civilized person? Or confront this Iraq veteran while he was at work? When the first course of action is extreme violence in the middle of the night, this is the logical result. Some might argue a justified one as well.
Until police agencies cease with storming in people's houses, fully armed, in the middle of the night in order to prosecute a war on a plant, this will continue.
Did no one think to knock on the door like a civilized person? Or confront this Iraq veteran while he was at work? When the first course of action is extreme violence in the middle of the night, this is the logical result. Some might argue a justified one as well.
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
I'm sure the media in this case like most has embellished the story to make it better news. I wouldn't believe everything the article says. There was probably a reason for the time they executed the warrant. And yes Cannabis is still illegal in some states. SO WHATS YOUR POINT Eleaf.
I'm sure the media in this case like most has embellished the story to make it better news. I wouldn't believe everything the article says. There was probably a reason for the time they executed the warrant. And yes Cannabis is still illegal in some states. SO WHATS YOUR POINT Eleaf.
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coldboremiracle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This story has been pissin me off since I first heard about it, so much of this is not making sense. The guy shoots 5 and kills another, and they didn't kill him? Whats more why did they have to serve a warrant for marijuana at night? If they'd of simply showed up during the day and not charged in there probably wouldn't have had to been any shooting.
I'm not saying they were wrong, I'd give either party the benefit of the doubt. Except for the guy growing dope in his house, but nobody needs to die over this bullshit.
</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Until police agencies cease with storming in people's houses, fully armed, in the middle of the night in order to prosecute a war on a plant, this will continue.
Did no one think to knock on the door like a civilized person? Or confront this Iraq veteran while he was at work? When the first course of action is extreme violence in the middle of the night, this is the logical result. Some might argue a justified one as well. </div></div>
what article are you reading that says they showed up in the middle of the night? what article are you reading that says they barged into the house? i am totally against forced entry warrants in almost all cases but this guy shot the officers as they approached the house. in this situation, it didn't matter if they were going to knock or not.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coldboremiracle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This story has been pissin me off since I first heard about it, so much of this is not making sense. The guy shoots 5 and kills another, and they didn't kill him? Whats more why did they have to serve a warrant for marijuana at night? If they'd of simply showed up during the day and not charged in there probably wouldn't have had to been any shooting.
I'm not saying they were wrong, I'd give either party the benefit of the doubt. Except for the guy growing dope in his house, but nobody needs to die over this bullshit.
</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Until police agencies cease with storming in people's houses, fully armed, in the middle of the night in order to prosecute a war on a plant, this will continue.
Did no one think to knock on the door like a civilized person? Or confront this Iraq veteran while he was at work? When the first course of action is extreme violence in the middle of the night, this is the logical result. Some might argue a justified one as well. </div></div>
what article are you reading that says they showed up in the middle of the night? what article are you reading that says they barged into the house? i am totally against forced entry warrants in almost all cases but this guy shot the officers as they approached the house. in this situation, it didn't matter if they were going to knock or not.
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coldboremiracle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This story has been pissin me off since I first heard about it, so much of this is not making sense. The guy shoots 5 and kills another, and they didn't kill him? Whats more why did they have to serve a warrant for marijuana at night? If they'd of simply showed up during the day and not charged in there probably wouldn't have had to been any shooting.
I'm not saying they were wrong, I'd give either party the benefit of the doubt. Except for the guy growing dope in his house, but nobody needs to die over this bullshit.
</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Until police agencies cease with storming in people's houses, fully armed, in the middle of the night in order to prosecute a war on a plant, this will continue.
Did no one think to knock on the door like a civilized person? Or confront this Iraq veteran while he was at work? When the first course of action is extreme violence in the middle of the night, this is the logical result. Some might argue a justified one as well. </div></div>
what article are you reading that says they showed up in the middle of the night? what article are you reading that says they barged into the house? i am totally against forced entry warrants in almost all cases but this guy shot the officers as they approached the house. in this situation, it didn't matter if they were going to knock or not. </div></div>
Here:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On Wednesday, at around 9 p.m. in Ogden, Utah, a 12-man "Narcotics Strike Force team" which included local police, Sheriff's officers, and members of the Drug Enforcement Administration [video] knocked on the door of Matthew David Stewart, in possession of a search warrant related to as-yet-unspecified drug charges. Police say there was no answer, so they kicked in the door.</div></div>
This happened at about 9pm, which is smack in the middle of this guy's night, as he works 3rd shift.
How is ANYONE supposed to differentiate between the police busting in your door, or a criminal busting in your door when you've been woken out of bed? Someone (or even multiple people) yelling "Police" is not a morally sufficient way to be able to identify the police from would-be robbers who could simply yell "Police" (though I'm well aware that, for one reason or another, it is legally sufficient). There is a better way than to have the police introduce extreme violence in to a situation that isn't already violent. This is not Iraq or Afghanistan and, despite the fantasies of law enforcement, there are not hordes of pot smokers waiting just beyond their door ways, just waiting to kill a cop at the door.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coldboremiracle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This story has been pissin me off since I first heard about it, so much of this is not making sense. The guy shoots 5 and kills another, and they didn't kill him? Whats more why did they have to serve a warrant for marijuana at night? If they'd of simply showed up during the day and not charged in there probably wouldn't have had to been any shooting.
I'm not saying they were wrong, I'd give either party the benefit of the doubt. Except for the guy growing dope in his house, but nobody needs to die over this bullshit.
</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Until police agencies cease with storming in people's houses, fully armed, in the middle of the night in order to prosecute a war on a plant, this will continue.
Did no one think to knock on the door like a civilized person? Or confront this Iraq veteran while he was at work? When the first course of action is extreme violence in the middle of the night, this is the logical result. Some might argue a justified one as well. </div></div>
what article are you reading that says they showed up in the middle of the night? what article are you reading that says they barged into the house? i am totally against forced entry warrants in almost all cases but this guy shot the officers as they approached the house. in this situation, it didn't matter if they were going to knock or not. </div></div>
Here:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On Wednesday, at around 9 p.m. in Ogden, Utah, a 12-man "Narcotics Strike Force team" which included local police, Sheriff's officers, and members of the Drug Enforcement Administration [video] knocked on the door of Matthew David Stewart, in possession of a search warrant related to as-yet-unspecified drug charges. Police say there was no answer, so they kicked in the door.</div></div>
This happened at about 9pm, which is smack in the middle of this guy's night, as he works 3rd shift.
How is ANYONE supposed to differentiate between the police busting in your door, or a criminal busting in your door when you've been woken out of bed? Someone (or even multiple people) yelling "Police" is not a morally sufficient way to be able to identify the police from would-be robbers who could simply yell "Police" (though I'm well aware that, for one reason or another, it is legally sufficient). There is a better way than to have the police introduce extreme violence in to a situation that isn't already violent. This is not Iraq or Afghanistan and, despite the fantasies of law enforcement, there are not hordes of pot smokers waiting just beyond their door ways, just waiting to kill a cop at the door.
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
we are all dumber now having read this....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Until police agencies cease with storming in people's houses, fully armed, in the middle of the night in order to prosecute a war on a plant, this will continue.
Did no one think to knock on the door like a civilized person? Or confront this Iraq veteran while he was at work? When the first course of action is extreme violence in the middle of the night, this is the logical result. Some might argue a justified one as well. </div></div>
we are all dumber now having read this....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Until police agencies cease with storming in people's houses, fully armed, in the middle of the night in order to prosecute a war on a plant, this will continue.
Did no one think to knock on the door like a civilized person? Or confront this Iraq veteran while he was at work? When the first course of action is extreme violence in the middle of the night, this is the logical result. Some might argue a justified one as well. </div></div>
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: toygunner</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'm sure the media in this case like most has embellished the story to make it better news. I wouldn't believe everything the article says. There was probably a reason for the time they executed the warrant. And yes Cannabis is still illegal in some states. SO WHATS YOUR POINT Eleaf. </div></div>
That there is such thing as using force pursuant to the crime ALLEGEDLY committed. And smoking pot, or even growing it, assuming law enforcement had ANY information beyond a name and address on the warrant ( a good number of raids like this are carried out with virtually no investigation, many of them based off of anonymous tips ALONE) does not warrant paramilitary raids.
Too often, force like this is the primary option when there are CLEARLY better ways to go about your business. Introducing violence begs that violence occur.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: toygunner</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I'm sure the media in this case like most has embellished the story to make it better news. I wouldn't believe everything the article says. There was probably a reason for the time they executed the warrant. And yes Cannabis is still illegal in some states. SO WHATS YOUR POINT Eleaf. </div></div>
That there is such thing as using force pursuant to the crime ALLEGEDLY committed. And smoking pot, or even growing it, assuming law enforcement had ANY information beyond a name and address on the warrant ( a good number of raids like this are carried out with virtually no investigation, many of them based off of anonymous tips ALONE) does not warrant paramilitary raids.
Too often, force like this is the primary option when there are CLEARLY better ways to go about your business. Introducing violence begs that violence occur.
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: josie6637</div><div class="ubbcode-body">we are all dumber now having read this....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Until police agencies cease with storming in people's houses, fully armed, in the middle of the night in order to prosecute a war on a plant, this will continue.
Did no one think to knock on the door like a civilized person? Or confront this Iraq veteran while he was at work? When the first course of action is extreme violence in the middle of the night, this is the logical result. Some might argue a justified one as well. </div></div> </div></div>
I assume you think that it's just UNFATHOMABLE that the police go out of their way to apprehend ALLEGED criminals in the safest way possible.
Surely there's a boot you can lick somewhere.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: josie6637</div><div class="ubbcode-body">we are all dumber now having read this....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Until police agencies cease with storming in people's houses, fully armed, in the middle of the night in order to prosecute a war on a plant, this will continue.
Did no one think to knock on the door like a civilized person? Or confront this Iraq veteran while he was at work? When the first course of action is extreme violence in the middle of the night, this is the logical result. Some might argue a justified one as well. </div></div> </div></div>
I assume you think that it's just UNFATHOMABLE that the police go out of their way to apprehend ALLEGED criminals in the safest way possible.
Surely there's a boot you can lick somewhere.
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: josie6637</div><div class="ubbcode-body">we are all dumber now having read this....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Until police agencies cease with storming in people's houses, fully armed, in the middle of the night in order to prosecute a war on a plant, this will continue.
Did no one think to knock on the door like a civilized person? Or confront this Iraq veteran while he was at work? When the first course of action is extreme violence in the middle of the night, this is the logical result. Some might argue a justified one as well. </div></div> </div></div>
Possible that you were dumb to begin with.
What I'm finding alarming is the way veterans who are under the suspicion of the law are right off the bat viewed as dangerous and needed to be approached in the dead of night.
It seems to tie in to that 'analysis' on domestic terrorism where returning vets were identified as possible terrorists - especially the Oath Keepers.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: josie6637</div><div class="ubbcode-body">we are all dumber now having read this....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Until police agencies cease with storming in people's houses, fully armed, in the middle of the night in order to prosecute a war on a plant, this will continue.
Did no one think to knock on the door like a civilized person? Or confront this Iraq veteran while he was at work? When the first course of action is extreme violence in the middle of the night, this is the logical result. Some might argue a justified one as well. </div></div> </div></div>
Possible that you were dumb to begin with.
What I'm finding alarming is the way veterans who are under the suspicion of the law are right off the bat viewed as dangerous and needed to be approached in the dead of night.
It seems to tie in to that 'analysis' on domestic terrorism where returning vets were identified as possible terrorists - especially the Oath Keepers.
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
I've been listening to the radio all day about it. They were discussing his "criminal record" that consisted of driving without insurance.
I kind of agree with eleaf on this one (thats a first) there were so many other ways this could have been done that would not have ended in loss of life.
I've been listening to the radio all day about it. They were discussing his "criminal record" that consisted of driving without insurance.
I kind of agree with eleaf on this one (thats a first) there were so many other ways this could have been done that would not have ended in loss of life.
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
I totally agree with what you're saying, eleaf.
Why couldn't they have picked the guy up while driving to or from work, instead of the middle of the night? Then, a search warrant could've been obtained for search and seizure of the premises.
It wasn't too long ago when guys were raiding houses after announcing themselves as police and decked out in full uniform/riot gear, forcing entry into the home or a simple knock, and then telling everyone to get on the floor while the 'officers' robbed the place. These were guys impersonating a police officer and it was in Tulsa.
I can tell you first hand that if someone tries coming through my door, having only announced themselves as police without proper verification/identification before entering, people are going to be killed and especially when you're talking during the night.
I totally agree with what you're saying, eleaf.
Why couldn't they have picked the guy up while driving to or from work, instead of the middle of the night? Then, a search warrant could've been obtained for search and seizure of the premises.
It wasn't too long ago when guys were raiding houses after announcing themselves as police and decked out in full uniform/riot gear, forcing entry into the home or a simple knock, and then telling everyone to get on the floor while the 'officers' robbed the place. These were guys impersonating a police officer and it was in Tulsa.
I can tell you first hand that if someone tries coming through my door, having only announced themselves as police without proper verification/identification before entering, people are going to be killed and especially when you're talking during the night.
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: josie6637</div><div class="ubbcode-body">we are all dumber now having read this....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Until police agencies cease with storming in people's houses, fully armed, in the middle of the night in order to prosecute a war on a plant, this will continue.
Did no one think to knock on the door like a civilized person? Or confront this Iraq veteran while he was at work? When the first course of action is extreme violence in the middle of the night, this is the logical result. Some might argue a justified one as well. </div></div> </div></div>
Possible that you were dumb to begin with.
What I'm finding alarming is the way veterans who are under the suspicion of the law are right off the bat viewed as dangerous and needed to be approached in the dead of night.
It seems to tie in to that 'analysis' on domestic terrorism where returning vets were identified as possible terrorists - especially the Oath Keepers. </div></div>
It's not just returning vets that are viewed as somehow so dangerous as to warrant squads of heavily armed men to bust in in the middle of the night. It's everyone they view that way.
These kinds of raids happen over a hundred times a day. Violence is bound to happen. Surely there is a better way that doesn't put either the lives of the ALLEGED criminals at risk, nor police officers.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: josie6637</div><div class="ubbcode-body">we are all dumber now having read this....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Until police agencies cease with storming in people's houses, fully armed, in the middle of the night in order to prosecute a war on a plant, this will continue.
Did no one think to knock on the door like a civilized person? Or confront this Iraq veteran while he was at work? When the first course of action is extreme violence in the middle of the night, this is the logical result. Some might argue a justified one as well. </div></div> </div></div>
Possible that you were dumb to begin with.
What I'm finding alarming is the way veterans who are under the suspicion of the law are right off the bat viewed as dangerous and needed to be approached in the dead of night.
It seems to tie in to that 'analysis' on domestic terrorism where returning vets were identified as possible terrorists - especially the Oath Keepers. </div></div>
It's not just returning vets that are viewed as somehow so dangerous as to warrant squads of heavily armed men to bust in in the middle of the night. It's everyone they view that way.
These kinds of raids happen over a hundred times a day. Violence is bound to happen. Surely there is a better way that doesn't put either the lives of the ALLEGED criminals at risk, nor police officers.
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
It was not a no knock warrant. I've worked third shift on several occasions and 9pm is nowhere near the middle of my "night" when on that shift. They knocked, the announced, they got no response and forced entry same as they would had they been looking for a murder suspect, burglar or counterfeiter. What I've "heard" is that the suspect stuck an AK out the door and started shooting down the hallway as they were coming through.
Lots of assumption and bullshit in this thread based on a dislike for LE. Sounds to me like the fact that this guy (veteran or not) opened up with an AK either without knowing who he was shooting at (if you choose to believe he didn't hear them announcing) or intentionally opened up on LE, they made a wise decision to utilize something other than street officers to serve the warrant.
You want cops to stop enforcing the laws against marijuana? How about you write your legislators or get involved in legalizing it rather than bitching at the cops who enforce the laws (as they are paid to do). Do you really want them choosing which laws they enforce based on their personal beliefs? Probably not a good idea.
No one who has written in this thread knows jack shit about what actually happened. Whether it was a 60 second investigation or a 6 month. Whether they knew this guy had an AK or didn't, whether he had made threatening statements about using it or not. Making assumptions to further an agenda is bullshit. Blaming LE for the laws on the books is ignorant.
It was not a no knock warrant. I've worked third shift on several occasions and 9pm is nowhere near the middle of my "night" when on that shift. They knocked, the announced, they got no response and forced entry same as they would had they been looking for a murder suspect, burglar or counterfeiter. What I've "heard" is that the suspect stuck an AK out the door and started shooting down the hallway as they were coming through.
Lots of assumption and bullshit in this thread based on a dislike for LE. Sounds to me like the fact that this guy (veteran or not) opened up with an AK either without knowing who he was shooting at (if you choose to believe he didn't hear them announcing) or intentionally opened up on LE, they made a wise decision to utilize something other than street officers to serve the warrant.
You want cops to stop enforcing the laws against marijuana? How about you write your legislators or get involved in legalizing it rather than bitching at the cops who enforce the laws (as they are paid to do). Do you really want them choosing which laws they enforce based on their personal beliefs? Probably not a good idea.
No one who has written in this thread knows jack shit about what actually happened. Whether it was a 60 second investigation or a 6 month. Whether they knew this guy had an AK or didn't, whether he had made threatening statements about using it or not. Making assumptions to further an agenda is bullshit. Blaming LE for the laws on the books is ignorant.
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
what article are you reading that says they showed up in the middle of the night? what article are you reading that says they barged into the house? i am totally against forced entry warrants in almost all cases but this guy shot the officers as they approached the house. in this situation, it didn't matter if they were going to knock or not. </div></div>
Here:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On Wednesday, at around 9 p.m. in Ogden, Utah, a 12-man "Narcotics Strike Force team" which included local police, Sheriff's officers, and members of the Drug Enforcement Administration [video] knocked on the door of Matthew David Stewart, in possession of a search warrant related to as-yet-unspecified drug charges. Police say there was no answer, so they kicked in the door.</div></div>
This happened at about 9pm, which is smack in the middle of this guy's night, as he works 3rd shift.
How is ANYONE supposed to differentiate between the police busting in your door, or a criminal busting in your door when you've been woken out of bed? Someone (or even multiple people) yelling "Police" is not a morally sufficient way to be able to identify the police from would-be robbers who could simply yell "Police" (though I'm well aware that, for one reason or another, it is legally sufficient). There is a better way than to have the police introduce extreme violence in to a situation that isn't already violent. This is not Iraq or Afghanistan and, despite the fantasies of law enforcement, there are not hordes of pot smokers waiting just beyond their door ways, just waiting to kill a cop at the door. </div></div>
well you probably should have included that in your first post. i'm reading the article linked in the op and it didn't say anything of the sort. it said he shot them as they approached the house, not after they kicked in the door.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
what article are you reading that says they showed up in the middle of the night? what article are you reading that says they barged into the house? i am totally against forced entry warrants in almost all cases but this guy shot the officers as they approached the house. in this situation, it didn't matter if they were going to knock or not. </div></div>
Here:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">On Wednesday, at around 9 p.m. in Ogden, Utah, a 12-man "Narcotics Strike Force team" which included local police, Sheriff's officers, and members of the Drug Enforcement Administration [video] knocked on the door of Matthew David Stewart, in possession of a search warrant related to as-yet-unspecified drug charges. Police say there was no answer, so they kicked in the door.</div></div>
This happened at about 9pm, which is smack in the middle of this guy's night, as he works 3rd shift.
How is ANYONE supposed to differentiate between the police busting in your door, or a criminal busting in your door when you've been woken out of bed? Someone (or even multiple people) yelling "Police" is not a morally sufficient way to be able to identify the police from would-be robbers who could simply yell "Police" (though I'm well aware that, for one reason or another, it is legally sufficient). There is a better way than to have the police introduce extreme violence in to a situation that isn't already violent. This is not Iraq or Afghanistan and, despite the fantasies of law enforcement, there are not hordes of pot smokers waiting just beyond their door ways, just waiting to kill a cop at the door. </div></div>
well you probably should have included that in your first post. i'm reading the article linked in the op and it didn't say anything of the sort. it said he shot them as they approached the house, not after they kicked in the door.
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You want cops to stop enforcing the laws against marijuana?</div></div>
Ideally, yes. It's immoral to tell others how they might spend their leisure time so long as they aren't actively hurting others, and unthinkable that they can do it via the use of extreme force which should be reserved for a minuscule number of situations (the vast majority of which not involving pot smokers).
In lieu of that, using sense when serving warrants would be a good start. Right now the enforcement of drug policy is insane. Surely there are improvements to be made which don't involve the continuous ratcheting up of violence on behalf of law enforcement. Even if police aren't autonomous beings that can refuse to prosecute a war that is both immoral and utterly fruitless (I.e., the drug war has been a dismal failure in EVERY respect), they have autonomy as to HOW that war is prosecuted.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you really want them choosing which laws they enforce based on their personal beliefs? Probably not a good idea.</div></div>
In my experience, this occurs regularly anyway.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You want cops to stop enforcing the laws against marijuana?</div></div>
Ideally, yes. It's immoral to tell others how they might spend their leisure time so long as they aren't actively hurting others, and unthinkable that they can do it via the use of extreme force which should be reserved for a minuscule number of situations (the vast majority of which not involving pot smokers).
In lieu of that, using sense when serving warrants would be a good start. Right now the enforcement of drug policy is insane. Surely there are improvements to be made which don't involve the continuous ratcheting up of violence on behalf of law enforcement. Even if police aren't autonomous beings that can refuse to prosecute a war that is both immoral and utterly fruitless (I.e., the drug war has been a dismal failure in EVERY respect), they have autonomy as to HOW that war is prosecuted.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you really want them choosing which laws they enforce based on their personal beliefs? Probably not a good idea.</div></div>
In my experience, this occurs regularly anyway.
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It was not a no knock warrant. I've worked third shift on several occasions and 9pm is nowhere near the middle of my "night" when on that shift. They knocked, the announced, they got no response and forced entry same as they would had they been looking for a murder suspect, burglar or counterfeiter. What I've "heard" is that the suspect stuck an AK out the door and started shooting down the hallway as they were coming through.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Lots of assumption and bullshit in this thread based on a dislike for LE.</span> Sounds to me like the fact that this guy (veteran or not) opened up with an AK either without knowing who he was shooting at (if you choose to believe he didn't hear them announcing) or intentionally opened up on LE, they made a wise decision to utilize something other than street officers to serve the warrant.
You want cops to stop enforcing the laws against marijuana? How about you write your legislators or get involved in legalizing it rather than bitching at the cops who enforce the laws (as they are paid to do). Do you really want them choosing which laws they enforce based on their personal beliefs? Probably not a good idea.
<span style="font-weight: bold">No one who has written in this thread knows jack shit about what actually happened.</span> Whether it was a 60 second investigation or a 6 month. Whether they knew this guy had an AK or didn't, whether he had made threatening statements about using it or not. Making assumptions to further an agenda is bullshit. <span style="font-weight: bold">Blaming LE for the laws on the books is ignorant.</span></div></div>
In a word - BULLSHIT.
All any of us are saying is things COULD HAVE been done differently and if they WOULD HAVE been done differently, this kind of thing wouldn't happen. This thread is not based on a dislike for LE so don't twist it into something that it isn't.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It was not a no knock warrant. I've worked third shift on several occasions and 9pm is nowhere near the middle of my "night" when on that shift. They knocked, the announced, they got no response and forced entry same as they would had they been looking for a murder suspect, burglar or counterfeiter. What I've "heard" is that the suspect stuck an AK out the door and started shooting down the hallway as they were coming through.
<span style="font-weight: bold">Lots of assumption and bullshit in this thread based on a dislike for LE.</span> Sounds to me like the fact that this guy (veteran or not) opened up with an AK either without knowing who he was shooting at (if you choose to believe he didn't hear them announcing) or intentionally opened up on LE, they made a wise decision to utilize something other than street officers to serve the warrant.
You want cops to stop enforcing the laws against marijuana? How about you write your legislators or get involved in legalizing it rather than bitching at the cops who enforce the laws (as they are paid to do). Do you really want them choosing which laws they enforce based on their personal beliefs? Probably not a good idea.
<span style="font-weight: bold">No one who has written in this thread knows jack shit about what actually happened.</span> Whether it was a 60 second investigation or a 6 month. Whether they knew this guy had an AK or didn't, whether he had made threatening statements about using it or not. Making assumptions to further an agenda is bullshit. <span style="font-weight: bold">Blaming LE for the laws on the books is ignorant.</span></div></div>
In a word - BULLSHIT.
All any of us are saying is things COULD HAVE been done differently and if they WOULD HAVE been done differently, this kind of thing wouldn't happen. This thread is not based on a dislike for LE so don't twist it into something that it isn't.
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
All any of us are saying is things COULD HAVE been done differently and if they WOULD HAVE been done differently, this kind of thing wouldn't happen. This thread is not based on a dislike for LE so don't twist it into something that it isn't. </div></div>
You're right. They could have sent two uniformed officers to knock on his door at any other time of the day. This guy could have shot them both dead just as easily as he shot the other five. Then the guys who did get shot would have been called in for a nice lengthy holding pattern which may or may have ended just as badly or worse.
ETA: As stated, no one here has enough information to determine whether the tactics used in this case were justified.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
All any of us are saying is things COULD HAVE been done differently and if they WOULD HAVE been done differently, this kind of thing wouldn't happen. This thread is not based on a dislike for LE so don't twist it into something that it isn't. </div></div>
You're right. They could have sent two uniformed officers to knock on his door at any other time of the day. This guy could have shot them both dead just as easily as he shot the other five. Then the guys who did get shot would have been called in for a nice lengthy holding pattern which may or may have ended just as badly or worse.
ETA: As stated, no one here has enough information to determine whether the tactics used in this case were justified.
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Ideally, yes. It's immoral to tell others how they might spend their leisure time so long as they aren't actively hurting others, and unthinkable that they can do it via the use of extreme force which should be reserved for a minuscule number of situations (the vast majority of which not involving pot smokers).
</div></div>
Where can I sign up for a job where I walk in and tell my boss that I'm not doing what I'm paid to do? Cops don't write the laws, they are paid to enforce them. I don't agree with some of the laws on the books myself, I could care less if all currently illegal drugs were legalized tomorrow. I don't preach this to my coworkers because they hold no more ability to change it than you do.
I've talked at great length about this sort of thing here and elsewhere. Cops deciding which laws are worthy of enforcing is a bad idea. We aren't paid to do it, we aren't trained to do it. Yes there is a line in the sand (for me personally) where I'd lay the badge down on the bosses desk and subject my family to poverty but I'm not doing that so folks can smoke weed. I'd love to see the war on drugs ended tomorrow, if for no other reason than a morbid curiosity to see what happens but it isn't up to me or anyone else in my profession.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Ideally, yes. It's immoral to tell others how they might spend their leisure time so long as they aren't actively hurting others, and unthinkable that they can do it via the use of extreme force which should be reserved for a minuscule number of situations (the vast majority of which not involving pot smokers).
</div></div>
Where can I sign up for a job where I walk in and tell my boss that I'm not doing what I'm paid to do? Cops don't write the laws, they are paid to enforce them. I don't agree with some of the laws on the books myself, I could care less if all currently illegal drugs were legalized tomorrow. I don't preach this to my coworkers because they hold no more ability to change it than you do.
I've talked at great length about this sort of thing here and elsewhere. Cops deciding which laws are worthy of enforcing is a bad idea. We aren't paid to do it, we aren't trained to do it. Yes there is a line in the sand (for me personally) where I'd lay the badge down on the bosses desk and subject my family to poverty but I'm not doing that so folks can smoke weed. I'd love to see the war on drugs ended tomorrow, if for no other reason than a morbid curiosity to see what happens but it isn't up to me or anyone else in my profession.
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Ideally, yes. It's immoral to tell others how they might spend their leisure time so long as they aren't actively hurting others, and unthinkable that they can do it via the use of extreme force which should be reserved for a minuscule number of situations (the vast majority of which not involving pot smokers).
</div></div>
Where can I sign up for a job where I walk in and tell my boss that I'm not doing what I'm paid to do? Cops don't write the laws, they are paid to enforce them. I don't agree with some of the laws on the books myself, I could care less if all currently illegal drugs were legalized tomorrow. I don't preach this to my coworkers because they hold no more ability to change it than you do.
I've talked at great length about this sort of thing here and elsewhere. Cops deciding which laws are worthy of enforcing is a bad idea. We aren't paid to do it, we aren't trained to do it. Yes there is a line in the sand (for me personally) where I'd lay the badge down on the bosses desk and subject my family to poverty but I'm not doing that so folks can smoke weed. I'd love to see the war on drugs ended tomorrow, if for no other reason than a morbid curiosity to see what happens but it isn't up to me or anyone else in my profession. </div></div>
And the rest of my post that doesn't fall under the most ideal conditions? The part that acknowledges that even if you can't be selective about enforcement, that you have autonomy to prosecute the WoD in a far more humane way. One that doesn't see drug users as threatening as Iraqi insurgents would be a good start.
If you want to end the drug war, even if only out of curiosity (though surely as a law enforcement officer, you'd relish the opportunity to set aside the drug war in lieu of pursuing those who commit actual crimes against actual people), you'll be voting for Ron Paul.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Ideally, yes. It's immoral to tell others how they might spend their leisure time so long as they aren't actively hurting others, and unthinkable that they can do it via the use of extreme force which should be reserved for a minuscule number of situations (the vast majority of which not involving pot smokers).
</div></div>
Where can I sign up for a job where I walk in and tell my boss that I'm not doing what I'm paid to do? Cops don't write the laws, they are paid to enforce them. I don't agree with some of the laws on the books myself, I could care less if all currently illegal drugs were legalized tomorrow. I don't preach this to my coworkers because they hold no more ability to change it than you do.
I've talked at great length about this sort of thing here and elsewhere. Cops deciding which laws are worthy of enforcing is a bad idea. We aren't paid to do it, we aren't trained to do it. Yes there is a line in the sand (for me personally) where I'd lay the badge down on the bosses desk and subject my family to poverty but I'm not doing that so folks can smoke weed. I'd love to see the war on drugs ended tomorrow, if for no other reason than a morbid curiosity to see what happens but it isn't up to me or anyone else in my profession. </div></div>
And the rest of my post that doesn't fall under the most ideal conditions? The part that acknowledges that even if you can't be selective about enforcement, that you have autonomy to prosecute the WoD in a far more humane way. One that doesn't see drug users as threatening as Iraqi insurgents would be a good start.
If you want to end the drug war, even if only out of curiosity (though surely as a law enforcement officer, you'd relish the opportunity to set aside the drug war in lieu of pursuing those who commit actual crimes against actual people), you'll be voting for Ron Paul.
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
Yeah I want to read more before I pass judgement but it seems as though this could have been better handled.. my father in law works for the Ogden city PD.. not a cop though.. crazy.
Yeah I want to read more before I pass judgement but it seems as though this could have been better handled.. my father in law works for the Ogden city PD.. not a cop though.. crazy.
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
You guys are missing eleaf's homepage. It looks like he uses environmentally friendly bullets and smokes a "j" while he's out shooting. He's just one of those burn outs who sits at home on the internet and tries to stir shit.
In response to "(though surely as a law enforcement officer, you'd relish the opportunity to set aside the drug war in lieu of pursuing those who commit actual crimes against actual people), a large majority of crimes are related to drugs. Stealing, burglary to get $$ to buy more drugs, battery, rape because they were high on drugs, home invasion to steal someone else drugs or get money to buy more drugs.The list goes on...but I'm sure Eleaf is probably out hugging a tree right now in his Utopia.
You guys are missing eleaf's homepage. It looks like he uses environmentally friendly bullets and smokes a "j" while he's out shooting. He's just one of those burn outs who sits at home on the internet and tries to stir shit.
In response to "(though surely as a law enforcement officer, you'd relish the opportunity to set aside the drug war in lieu of pursuing those who commit actual crimes against actual people), a large majority of crimes are related to drugs. Stealing, burglary to get $$ to buy more drugs, battery, rape because they were high on drugs, home invasion to steal someone else drugs or get money to buy more drugs.The list goes on...but I'm sure Eleaf is probably out hugging a tree right now in his Utopia.
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Where can I sign up for a job where I walk in and tell my boss that I'm not doing what I'm paid to do? </div></div>
Any number of government jobs.
We'll start with President of the United States of America and work our way down from there.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Where can I sign up for a job where I walk in and tell my boss that I'm not doing what I'm paid to do? </div></div>
Any number of government jobs.
We'll start with President of the United States of America and work our way down from there.
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And the rest of my post that doesn't fall under the most ideal conditions? The part that acknowledges that even if you can't be selective about enforcement, that you have autonomy to prosecute the WoD in a far more humane way. One that doesn't see drug users as threatening as Iraqi insurgents would be a good start.
If you want to end the drug war, even if only out of curiosity (though surely as a law enforcement officer, you'd relish the opportunity to set aside the drug war in lieu of pursuing those who commit actual crimes against actual people), you'll be voting for Ron Paul. </div></div>
I guess that's where the rub lies. I don't see how anything provided about this story shows where they police did anything inhumane. This guys actions (after the police knocked and announced who they were) support to the fact that they chose properly when making the decision on how to approach this situation. Sometimes shit goes downhill and most of the time it is not the decision of the police involved. This guy obviously had no intentions of going to jail. Had they sent regular uniformed officers the likelihood of more dead cops goes up as the weapon he used easily defeats normal body armor.
Who knows what went on during the investigation leading up to the warrant service. I've worked narcotics and I've been with SWAT for nearly ten years. We have used the team to serve warrants on guys who had never been convicted of a violent crime based on statements made and/or weapons observed during the investigation. We've served warrants on guys with prior murder convictions using regular patrol officers if there was no reason to believe things would go bad.
There is much lacking in this story. I'll readily agree that there are far too many situations every year where SWAT is used inappropriately. There are many SWAT teams in this country who lack the training and/or leadership to operate properly. Not all teams are created equal and many rarely make the news in a negative light. Not being fond of more government intervention, I wish there was another way to control or limit the organization and use of SWAT/TAC/ERT to avoid an eventual throwing out of the baby with the bath water but I don't know what it would be.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And the rest of my post that doesn't fall under the most ideal conditions? The part that acknowledges that even if you can't be selective about enforcement, that you have autonomy to prosecute the WoD in a far more humane way. One that doesn't see drug users as threatening as Iraqi insurgents would be a good start.
If you want to end the drug war, even if only out of curiosity (though surely as a law enforcement officer, you'd relish the opportunity to set aside the drug war in lieu of pursuing those who commit actual crimes against actual people), you'll be voting for Ron Paul. </div></div>
I guess that's where the rub lies. I don't see how anything provided about this story shows where they police did anything inhumane. This guys actions (after the police knocked and announced who they were) support to the fact that they chose properly when making the decision on how to approach this situation. Sometimes shit goes downhill and most of the time it is not the decision of the police involved. This guy obviously had no intentions of going to jail. Had they sent regular uniformed officers the likelihood of more dead cops goes up as the weapon he used easily defeats normal body armor.
Who knows what went on during the investigation leading up to the warrant service. I've worked narcotics and I've been with SWAT for nearly ten years. We have used the team to serve warrants on guys who had never been convicted of a violent crime based on statements made and/or weapons observed during the investigation. We've served warrants on guys with prior murder convictions using regular patrol officers if there was no reason to believe things would go bad.
There is much lacking in this story. I'll readily agree that there are far too many situations every year where SWAT is used inappropriately. There are many SWAT teams in this country who lack the training and/or leadership to operate properly. Not all teams are created equal and many rarely make the news in a negative light. Not being fond of more government intervention, I wish there was another way to control or limit the organization and use of SWAT/TAC/ERT to avoid an eventual throwing out of the baby with the bath water but I don't know what it would be.
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Where can I sign up for a job where I walk in and tell my boss that I'm not doing what I'm paid to do? </div></div>
We'll start with President of the United States of America and work our way down from there. </div></div>
Touche...lol.
I'll stop you when you're wrong, lol
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Where can I sign up for a job where I walk in and tell my boss that I'm not doing what I'm paid to do? </div></div>
We'll start with President of the United States of America and work our way down from there. </div></div>
Touche...lol.
I'll stop you when you're wrong, lol
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: toygunner</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You guys are missing eleaf's homepage. It looks like he uses environmentally friendly bullets and smokes a "j" while he's out shooting. He's just one of those burn outs who sits at home on the internet and tries to stir shit.
In response to "(though surely as a law enforcement officer, you'd relish the opportunity to set aside the drug war in lieu of pursuing those who commit actual crimes against actual people), a large majority of crimes are related to drugs. Stealing, burglary to get $$ to buy more drugs, battery, rape because they were high on drugs, home invasion to steal someone else drugs or get money to buy more drugs.The list goes on...but I'm sure Eleaf is probably out hugging a tree right now in his Utopia. </div></div>
All PROHIBITION problems, not problems with the drugs themselves (unless you feel like completely ignoring the history of what happens when substances are prohibited). Virtually every problem that you associate with drugs would be greatly diminished if one could go down the street and buy them at MARKET prices rather than having to purchase them via the black market where normal markets controls are diminished. Or are there throngs of people stealing and dying in order to legally buy packs or marlboros or that 6 pack of bud light?
I'll just overlook the nasty game of ad hominem you're playing and chock it up to you not having an intellectually honest way of arguing. In short, what I sell has nothing to do with anything at all. It's how I pay my bills. But I don't expect much from your sort.
And do you really think that I would choose to troll over the course of nearly 1800 posts and a couple of years?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: toygunner</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You guys are missing eleaf's homepage. It looks like he uses environmentally friendly bullets and smokes a "j" while he's out shooting. He's just one of those burn outs who sits at home on the internet and tries to stir shit.
In response to "(though surely as a law enforcement officer, you'd relish the opportunity to set aside the drug war in lieu of pursuing those who commit actual crimes against actual people), a large majority of crimes are related to drugs. Stealing, burglary to get $$ to buy more drugs, battery, rape because they were high on drugs, home invasion to steal someone else drugs or get money to buy more drugs.The list goes on...but I'm sure Eleaf is probably out hugging a tree right now in his Utopia. </div></div>
All PROHIBITION problems, not problems with the drugs themselves (unless you feel like completely ignoring the history of what happens when substances are prohibited). Virtually every problem that you associate with drugs would be greatly diminished if one could go down the street and buy them at MARKET prices rather than having to purchase them via the black market where normal markets controls are diminished. Or are there throngs of people stealing and dying in order to legally buy packs or marlboros or that 6 pack of bud light?
I'll just overlook the nasty game of ad hominem you're playing and chock it up to you not having an intellectually honest way of arguing. In short, what I sell has nothing to do with anything at all. It's how I pay my bills. But I don't expect much from your sort.
And do you really think that I would choose to troll over the course of nearly 1800 posts and a couple of years?
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not being fond of more government intervention, I wish there was another way to control or limit the organization and use of SWAT/TAC/ERT to avoid an eventual throwing out of the baby with the bath water but I don't know what it would be. </div></div>
Using them STRICTLY for the purposes they were ORIGINALLY conceived as serving (interdicting in ALREADY violent situations such as bank robberies, kidnappings, etc) would be a good start. That they are used for routine warrant searches is immoral. Introducing heavily armed cops pumped full of adrenaline hardly seems like the best way to AVOID violence (which should ALWAYS be the goal).
As far as the case above, it seems that approaching him at work (Walmart), or on the way from his car as he's walking in to his work/home or during the commute, or any number of other choices seems like they would have been more prudent.
Guns blazing (even after knocking with no answer) seems like it should be WAY DOWN on the priority list, not the go-to tactic.
And perhaps the problem is that what needs to change is the strategy that determines the tactics. The overall strategy in prosecuting the WoD is far too aggressive (starting with the "War" terminology), which leads to tactics that are far too aggressive. It seems that pretending any and every pot smoker or grower is as dangerous as the thugs in Mexican cartels, and that they are waiting behind every door ready to blast the nearest LEO, and acting in a manner which reflects those beliefs, is errant.
It's the mindset that determines the tactics, and that mindset needs to change.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not being fond of more government intervention, I wish there was another way to control or limit the organization and use of SWAT/TAC/ERT to avoid an eventual throwing out of the baby with the bath water but I don't know what it would be. </div></div>
Using them STRICTLY for the purposes they were ORIGINALLY conceived as serving (interdicting in ALREADY violent situations such as bank robberies, kidnappings, etc) would be a good start. That they are used for routine warrant searches is immoral. Introducing heavily armed cops pumped full of adrenaline hardly seems like the best way to AVOID violence (which should ALWAYS be the goal).
As far as the case above, it seems that approaching him at work (Walmart), or on the way from his car as he's walking in to his work/home or during the commute, or any number of other choices seems like they would have been more prudent.
Guns blazing (even after knocking with no answer) seems like it should be WAY DOWN on the priority list, not the go-to tactic.
And perhaps the problem is that what needs to change is the strategy that determines the tactics. The overall strategy in prosecuting the WoD is far too aggressive (starting with the "War" terminology), which leads to tactics that are far too aggressive. It seems that pretending any and every pot smoker or grower is as dangerous as the thugs in Mexican cartels, and that they are waiting behind every door ready to blast the nearest LEO, and acting in a manner which reflects those beliefs, is errant.
It's the mindset that determines the tactics, and that mindset needs to change.
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Where can I sign up for a job where I walk in and tell my boss that I'm not doing what I'm paid to do? </div></div>
We'll start with President of the United States of America and work our way down from there. </div></div>
Touche...lol.
I'll stop you when you're wrong, lol </div></div>
We'll be here for a looooooooong time . . .
LOL
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Where can I sign up for a job where I walk in and tell my boss that I'm not doing what I'm paid to do? </div></div>
We'll start with President of the United States of America and work our way down from there. </div></div>
Touche...lol.
I'll stop you when you're wrong, lol </div></div>
We'll be here for a looooooooong time . . .
LOL
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not being fond of more government intervention, I wish there was another way to control or limit the organization and use of SWAT/TAC/ERT to avoid an eventual throwing out of the baby with the bath water but I don't know what it would be. </div></div>
Using them STRICTLY for the purposes they were ORIGINALLY conceived as serving (interdicting in ALREADY violent situations such as bank robberies, kidnappings, etc) would be a good start. That they are used for routine warrant searches is immoral. Introducing heavily armed cops pumped full of adrenaline hardly seems like the best way to AVOID violence (which should ALWAYS be the goal).
As far as the case above, it seems that approaching him at work (Walmart), or on the way from his car as he's walking in to his work/home or during the commute, or any number of other choices seems like they would have been more prudent.
Guns blazing (even after knocking with no answer) seems like it should be WAY DOWN on the priority list, not the go-to tactic.
And perhaps the problem is that what needs to change is the strategy that determines the tactics. The overall strategy in prosecuting the WoD is far too aggressive (starting with the "War" terminology), which leads to tactics that are far too aggressive. It seems that pretending any and every pot smoker or grower is as dangerous as the thugs in Mexican cartels, and that they are waiting behind every door ready to blast the nearest LEO, and acting in a manner which reflects those beliefs, is errant.
It's the mindset that determines the tactics, and that mindset needs to change. </div></div>
I'll direct you back to my statements about not all teams being created equal.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not being fond of more government intervention, I wish there was another way to control or limit the organization and use of SWAT/TAC/ERT to avoid an eventual throwing out of the baby with the bath water but I don't know what it would be. </div></div>
Using them STRICTLY for the purposes they were ORIGINALLY conceived as serving (interdicting in ALREADY violent situations such as bank robberies, kidnappings, etc) would be a good start. That they are used for routine warrant searches is immoral. Introducing heavily armed cops pumped full of adrenaline hardly seems like the best way to AVOID violence (which should ALWAYS be the goal).
As far as the case above, it seems that approaching him at work (Walmart), or on the way from his car as he's walking in to his work/home or during the commute, or any number of other choices seems like they would have been more prudent.
Guns blazing (even after knocking with no answer) seems like it should be WAY DOWN on the priority list, not the go-to tactic.
And perhaps the problem is that what needs to change is the strategy that determines the tactics. The overall strategy in prosecuting the WoD is far too aggressive (starting with the "War" terminology), which leads to tactics that are far too aggressive. It seems that pretending any and every pot smoker or grower is as dangerous as the thugs in Mexican cartels, and that they are waiting behind every door ready to blast the nearest LEO, and acting in a manner which reflects those beliefs, is errant.
It's the mindset that determines the tactics, and that mindset needs to change. </div></div>
I'll direct you back to my statements about not all teams being created equal.
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
Phylodog this is a waste of time trying to explain to eleaf, because he has it all figured out legalize everything get and get rid of the police. I've dealt with people like this on nearly a daily basis, something goes seriously south with them guess who they call.....
I gotta go shoot. I dont have all day to rack up thousands of posts and stir the pot. Oh the president thing I think we all can agree on that one.
Basically what is aggravating some on this post is how easy it is for some to armchair quarterback about something that they have no actual knowledge or first had experience of...
Phylodog this is a waste of time trying to explain to eleaf, because he has it all figured out legalize everything get and get rid of the police. I've dealt with people like this on nearly a daily basis, something goes seriously south with them guess who they call.....
I gotta go shoot. I dont have all day to rack up thousands of posts and stir the pot. Oh the president thing I think we all can agree on that one.
Basically what is aggravating some on this post is how easy it is for some to armchair quarterback about something that they have no actual knowledge or first had experience of...
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not being fond of more government intervention, I wish there was another way to control or limit the organization and use of SWAT/TAC/ERT to avoid an eventual throwing out of the baby with the bath water but I don't know what it would be. </div></div>
Using them STRICTLY for the purposes they were ORIGINALLY conceived as serving (interdicting in ALREADY violent situations such as bank robberies, kidnappings, etc) would be a good start. That they are used for routine warrant searches is immoral. Introducing heavily armed cops pumped full of adrenaline hardly seems like the best way to AVOID violence (which should ALWAYS be the goal).
As far as the case above, it seems that approaching him at work (Walmart), or on the way from his car as he's walking in to his work/home or during the commute, or any number of other choices seems like they would have been more prudent.
Guns blazing (even after knocking with no answer) seems like it should be WAY DOWN on the priority list, not the go-to tactic.
And perhaps the problem is that what needs to change is the strategy that determines the tactics. The overall strategy in prosecuting the WoD is far too aggressive (starting with the "War" terminology), which leads to tactics that are far too aggressive. It seems that pretending any and every pot smoker or grower is as dangerous as the thugs in Mexican cartels, and that they are waiting behind every door ready to blast the nearest LEO, and acting in a manner which reflects those beliefs, is errant.
It's the mindset that determines the tactics, and that mindset needs to change. </div></div>
I'll direct you back to my statements about not all teams being created equal. </div></div>
Fair enough.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not being fond of more government intervention, I wish there was another way to control or limit the organization and use of SWAT/TAC/ERT to avoid an eventual throwing out of the baby with the bath water but I don't know what it would be. </div></div>
Using them STRICTLY for the purposes they were ORIGINALLY conceived as serving (interdicting in ALREADY violent situations such as bank robberies, kidnappings, etc) would be a good start. That they are used for routine warrant searches is immoral. Introducing heavily armed cops pumped full of adrenaline hardly seems like the best way to AVOID violence (which should ALWAYS be the goal).
As far as the case above, it seems that approaching him at work (Walmart), or on the way from his car as he's walking in to his work/home or during the commute, or any number of other choices seems like they would have been more prudent.
Guns blazing (even after knocking with no answer) seems like it should be WAY DOWN on the priority list, not the go-to tactic.
And perhaps the problem is that what needs to change is the strategy that determines the tactics. The overall strategy in prosecuting the WoD is far too aggressive (starting with the "War" terminology), which leads to tactics that are far too aggressive. It seems that pretending any and every pot smoker or grower is as dangerous as the thugs in Mexican cartels, and that they are waiting behind every door ready to blast the nearest LEO, and acting in a manner which reflects those beliefs, is errant.
It's the mindset that determines the tactics, and that mindset needs to change. </div></div>
I'll direct you back to my statements about not all teams being created equal. </div></div>
Fair enough.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
The "War on Drugs" claims more casualties. /shakes head
The "War on Drugs" claims more casualties. /shakes head
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
Ya, let's approach this guy at walmart or some other highly populated public place where not only is it just as likely that the shitbag suspect will fight but then we can have hundreds more innocent victims put at risk. Brilliant thinking from a shining example of logical reasoning. The caveat I will offer is that if you are so good at predicting outcomes when dealing with criminals I am sure there is a long list of agencies that would pay dearly for your psychic knowledge.
This was a knock and announce warrant, served to arrest someone where there was enough evidence to support the a judge issuing a warrant. Due process had in fact been followed to this point. Based on the fact that a no knock warrant was not obtained there was not a high suspicion or evidence that the suspect was going to fight. These are the same type of warrant that is commonly executed without incident all over the country.
In UT state law requires that such a warrant be served between the hours of 6am-10pm. The officers knocked and announced at which point they began taking fire from the home. So shitbag dopesmoker decided this incident not the cops.
To Eleaf, EH, Killshot, et al. Feel free to critique all you want but when you spew your bullshit without any knowledge of the actual events and simply rely on your emotionally driven rhetoric you simply continue to sound stupid. If and when you would ever consider discussing factual information you may be surprised to find your opinions don't hold water.
Ya, let's approach this guy at walmart or some other highly populated public place where not only is it just as likely that the shitbag suspect will fight but then we can have hundreds more innocent victims put at risk. Brilliant thinking from a shining example of logical reasoning. The caveat I will offer is that if you are so good at predicting outcomes when dealing with criminals I am sure there is a long list of agencies that would pay dearly for your psychic knowledge.
This was a knock and announce warrant, served to arrest someone where there was enough evidence to support the a judge issuing a warrant. Due process had in fact been followed to this point. Based on the fact that a no knock warrant was not obtained there was not a high suspicion or evidence that the suspect was going to fight. These are the same type of warrant that is commonly executed without incident all over the country.
In UT state law requires that such a warrant be served between the hours of 6am-10pm. The officers knocked and announced at which point they began taking fire from the home. So shitbag dopesmoker decided this incident not the cops.
To Eleaf, EH, Killshot, et al. Feel free to critique all you want but when you spew your bullshit without any knowledge of the actual events and simply rely on your emotionally driven rhetoric you simply continue to sound stupid. If and when you would ever consider discussing factual information you may be surprised to find your opinions don't hold water.
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What I've "heard" is that the suspect stuck an AK out the door and started shooting down the hallway as they were coming through.. </div></div>
Phylo or other LE - setting this story and pretty much everything else in this thread aside, at what point do you all see LE changing their tactics? LE stacking up like cord wood on the porch (while under the watch of a camera feed), and making entry into a fortified position is a sure fire recipe for disaster; wait until the scene includes bad guy overwatch - game over. The worst part - you have innocents living all around.
When will we see the curtailment of these raids and more emphasis to surveil, plan and apprehend in a setting that is most advantageous to LE and the public's safety? Esp when we are talking about drug offenses wherein no one is in imment danger - until LE squads up out front.
Seems to me a de-emphasis on the multi cam and machine gun mentality in favor of a quality team of UCs and taking advantage of time place and circumstance is a much safer way to go.
Good luck
ETA - I know it isn't up to you wave a magic wand and decree it so, I am really just asking are you beginning to hear about a shift in the thought process of apprehending persons in such cases?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What I've "heard" is that the suspect stuck an AK out the door and started shooting down the hallway as they were coming through.. </div></div>
Phylo or other LE - setting this story and pretty much everything else in this thread aside, at what point do you all see LE changing their tactics? LE stacking up like cord wood on the porch (while under the watch of a camera feed), and making entry into a fortified position is a sure fire recipe for disaster; wait until the scene includes bad guy overwatch - game over. The worst part - you have innocents living all around.
When will we see the curtailment of these raids and more emphasis to surveil, plan and apprehend in a setting that is most advantageous to LE and the public's safety? Esp when we are talking about drug offenses wherein no one is in imment danger - until LE squads up out front.
Seems to me a de-emphasis on the multi cam and machine gun mentality in favor of a quality team of UCs and taking advantage of time place and circumstance is a much safer way to go.
Good luck
ETA - I know it isn't up to you wave a magic wand and decree it so, I am really just asking are you beginning to hear about a shift in the thought process of apprehending persons in such cases?
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">]
LE stacking up like cord wood on the porch (while under the watch of a camera feed), and making entry into a fortified position is a sure fire recipe for disaster; wait until the scene includes bad guy overwatch - game over. The worst part - you have innocents living all around.
When will we see the curtailment of these raids and more emphasis to surveil, plan and apprehend in a setting that is most advantageous to LE and the public's safety? Esp when we are talking about drug offenses wherein no one is in imment danger - until LE squads up out front.
Seems to me a de-emphasis on the multi cam and machine gun mentality in favor of a quality team of UCs and taking advantage of time place and circumstance is a much safer way to go.
Good luck
</div></div>
We don't operate like that. If it's a known fortified position we use a different approach, alternate breaching points and we always have long cover sitting back watching for the overwatch. We have had a number of warrants over the years where it was deemed to unsafe for our "traditional" approach. It is not uncommon for us to wait for a suspect to leave, take him into custody then go back and serve a search warrant at the residence. The "T" for tactics in SWAT plays a much larger role than the "W" for weapons. There is a smart way of approaching these situations. This is where the proper equipment and training come in to play. Not having both can be a recipe for disaster and some teams are better than others.
If we do not need to conduct a no knock warrant we will conduct a contain & callout where we set up a perimeter around the residence and announce over the PA or call the phone and ask them to come out. We do this all the time.
One thing to keep in mind is that people like this guy in Utah have a right to submit to a lawful arrest. There is no requirement to resist or attempt to shoot anyone. Our announcements are easily loud enough and clear enough for anyone who isn't deaf to understand what is going on and coupled with the flashing red and blue lights all around the place it becomes evident that anyone who wants to fight it out knows full good & well who they are fighting. It's their choice and they'll do it at home, work or wherever they encounter a police officer who intends to arrest them.
There is a segment of society that must be handled differently than the rest. We serve very few warrants on marijuana dealers. Marijuana dealers tend to be victims of violent crime much more than the perpetrators so we end up going after those who rob and kill them.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">]
LE stacking up like cord wood on the porch (while under the watch of a camera feed), and making entry into a fortified position is a sure fire recipe for disaster; wait until the scene includes bad guy overwatch - game over. The worst part - you have innocents living all around.
When will we see the curtailment of these raids and more emphasis to surveil, plan and apprehend in a setting that is most advantageous to LE and the public's safety? Esp when we are talking about drug offenses wherein no one is in imment danger - until LE squads up out front.
Seems to me a de-emphasis on the multi cam and machine gun mentality in favor of a quality team of UCs and taking advantage of time place and circumstance is a much safer way to go.
Good luck
</div></div>
We don't operate like that. If it's a known fortified position we use a different approach, alternate breaching points and we always have long cover sitting back watching for the overwatch. We have had a number of warrants over the years where it was deemed to unsafe for our "traditional" approach. It is not uncommon for us to wait for a suspect to leave, take him into custody then go back and serve a search warrant at the residence. The "T" for tactics in SWAT plays a much larger role than the "W" for weapons. There is a smart way of approaching these situations. This is where the proper equipment and training come in to play. Not having both can be a recipe for disaster and some teams are better than others.
If we do not need to conduct a no knock warrant we will conduct a contain & callout where we set up a perimeter around the residence and announce over the PA or call the phone and ask them to come out. We do this all the time.
One thing to keep in mind is that people like this guy in Utah have a right to submit to a lawful arrest. There is no requirement to resist or attempt to shoot anyone. Our announcements are easily loud enough and clear enough for anyone who isn't deaf to understand what is going on and coupled with the flashing red and blue lights all around the place it becomes evident that anyone who wants to fight it out knows full good & well who they are fighting. It's their choice and they'll do it at home, work or wherever they encounter a police officer who intends to arrest them.
There is a segment of society that must be handled differently than the rest. We serve very few warrants on marijuana dealers. Marijuana dealers tend to be victims of violent crime much more than the perpetrators so we end up going after those who rob and kill them.
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
You missed the point.
Good luck
You missed the point.
Good luck
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
Actually I didn't. I think perhaps you dont understand the purpose of what we do nor the mindsets involved.
Actually I didn't. I think perhaps you dont understand the purpose of what we do nor the mindsets involved.
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You missed the point.
Good luck </div></div>
Mo,
You are missing a very clear point...this was not a SWAT service. This was the same type of knock and announce warrant that would likely be used to someone wanted for any number of mid level crimes. This was detectives (albeit detectives in a narcotics unit) serving the warrant not a SWAT Team.
Had it been a a SWAT service with a no knock warrant issued, it most likely would have had a much better outcome as the scout, tactical decisions, and approaches would have been much different. The knock and announce requirements set forth by Federal, State, statutes and case law dictated otherwise.
As Phylo stated there are a number of factors hear that the commentators know nothing about. When factored in the explanations make much more sense and the questions seem silly.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You missed the point.
Good luck </div></div>
Mo,
You are missing a very clear point...this was not a SWAT service. This was the same type of knock and announce warrant that would likely be used to someone wanted for any number of mid level crimes. This was detectives (albeit detectives in a narcotics unit) serving the warrant not a SWAT Team.
Had it been a a SWAT service with a no knock warrant issued, it most likely would have had a much better outcome as the scout, tactical decisions, and approaches would have been much different. The knock and announce requirements set forth by Federal, State, statutes and case law dictated otherwise.
As Phylo stated there are a number of factors hear that the commentators know nothing about. When factored in the explanations make much more sense and the questions seem silly.
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tucker301</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The "War on Drugs" claims more casualties. /shakes head</div></div> And the continued extortion of drugs, money, and power rages on without regard.
The idea of using violence to confront a nonviolent situation shows lack of mental ability.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tucker301</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The "War on Drugs" claims more casualties. /shakes head</div></div> And the continued extortion of drugs, money, and power rages on without regard.
The idea of using violence to confront a nonviolent situation shows lack of mental ability.
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
We don't operate like that. If it's a known fortified position we use a different approach, alternate breaching points and we always have long cover sitting back watching for the overwatch. We have had a number of warrants over the years where it was deemed to unsafe for our "traditional" approach. It is not uncommon for us to wait for a suspect to leave, take him into custody then go back and serve a search warrant at the residence. The "T" for tactics in SWAT plays a much larger role than the "W" for weapons. There is a smart way of approaching these situations. This is where the proper equipment and training come in to play. Not having both can be a recipe for disaster and some teams are better than others.
If we do not need to conduct a no knock warrant we will conduct a contain & callout where we set up a perimeter around the residence and announce over the PA or call the phone and ask them to come out. We do this all the time.
One thing to keep in mind is that people like this guy in Utah have a right to submit to a lawful arrest. There is no requirement to resist or attempt to shoot anyone. Our announcements are easily loud enough and clear enough for anyone who isn't deaf to understand what is going on and coupled with the flashing red and blue lights all around the place it becomes evident that anyone who wants to fight it out knows full good & well who they are fighting. It's their choice and they'll do it at home, work or wherever they encounter a police officer who intends to arrest them.
There is a segment of society that must be handled differently than the rest. We serve very few warrants on marijuana dealers. Marijuana dealers tend to be victims of violent crime much more than the perpetrators so we end up going after those who rob and kill them.
</div></div>
Unfortunately these officers didn't apply your teams tactics, had they done so the outcome might have been much better for them.
My only problem with the "hey we are here and kicking in your door" is when they do it to the wrong house. Worse when a law abiding citizen doesn't know whats going on and happens to have a gun in his hand, attempting to protect his family.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
We don't operate like that. If it's a known fortified position we use a different approach, alternate breaching points and we always have long cover sitting back watching for the overwatch. We have had a number of warrants over the years where it was deemed to unsafe for our "traditional" approach. It is not uncommon for us to wait for a suspect to leave, take him into custody then go back and serve a search warrant at the residence. The "T" for tactics in SWAT plays a much larger role than the "W" for weapons. There is a smart way of approaching these situations. This is where the proper equipment and training come in to play. Not having both can be a recipe for disaster and some teams are better than others.
If we do not need to conduct a no knock warrant we will conduct a contain & callout where we set up a perimeter around the residence and announce over the PA or call the phone and ask them to come out. We do this all the time.
One thing to keep in mind is that people like this guy in Utah have a right to submit to a lawful arrest. There is no requirement to resist or attempt to shoot anyone. Our announcements are easily loud enough and clear enough for anyone who isn't deaf to understand what is going on and coupled with the flashing red and blue lights all around the place it becomes evident that anyone who wants to fight it out knows full good & well who they are fighting. It's their choice and they'll do it at home, work or wherever they encounter a police officer who intends to arrest them.
There is a segment of society that must be handled differently than the rest. We serve very few warrants on marijuana dealers. Marijuana dealers tend to be victims of violent crime much more than the perpetrators so we end up going after those who rob and kill them.
</div></div>
Unfortunately these officers didn't apply your teams tactics, had they done so the outcome might have been much better for them.
My only problem with the "hey we are here and kicking in your door" is when they do it to the wrong house. Worse when a law abiding citizen doesn't know whats going on and happens to have a gun in his hand, attempting to protect his family.
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
Phylo - didn't mean to sound curt - the dog threw up on the floor and that led to series of other things before I clarify my question.
A) not talking about this event or the comments in this thread
B) in general terms - not asking about your department or your department's tactics
C) do you see a shift on the horizon away from the mentality of 'let's find the bad guy, get geared up for war, and do it on the strong - when no one is in iminent danger and the bad guy is not a known violent offender - and there are innocents nearby?
D) if not, why?
E) can you see the point the public is making - that they neither want nor respect the apparent militarization of LE, have issue with needlessly putting the the public at risk - esp when the wrong house is hit, or simply by using this level of force to apprehend a non violent person?
F) on a similar note the public neither wants nor respects the militarization of the Feds http://www.dailycommercial.com/News/LakeCounty/010412shield http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/highway/index.shtm
Good luck
Phylo - didn't mean to sound curt - the dog threw up on the floor and that led to series of other things before I clarify my question.
A) not talking about this event or the comments in this thread
B) in general terms - not asking about your department or your department's tactics
C) do you see a shift on the horizon away from the mentality of 'let's find the bad guy, get geared up for war, and do it on the strong - when no one is in iminent danger and the bad guy is not a known violent offender - and there are innocents nearby?
D) if not, why?
E) can you see the point the public is making - that they neither want nor respect the apparent militarization of LE, have issue with needlessly putting the the public at risk - esp when the wrong house is hit, or simply by using this level of force to apprehend a non violent person?
F) on a similar note the public neither wants nor respects the militarization of the Feds http://www.dailycommercial.com/News/LakeCounty/010412shield http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/highway/index.shtm
Good luck
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You missed the point.
Good luck </div></div>
Mo,
You are missing a very clear point...this was not a SWAT service. This was the same type of knock and announce warrant that would likely be used to someone wanted for any number of mid level crimes. This was detectives (albeit detectives in a narcotics unit) serving the warrant not a SWAT Team.
</div></div>
Smokshwn - no, actually this was my point exactly. That said, I never referenced SWAT - I referenced mutlicam and machine gun mentality in the pursuit of a bad guy when no one was in imminent danger and the bad guy was not known to be a violent person. Additionally I said I was not talking about this situation or the comments in this thread.
Good luck
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You missed the point.
Good luck </div></div>
Mo,
You are missing a very clear point...this was not a SWAT service. This was the same type of knock and announce warrant that would likely be used to someone wanted for any number of mid level crimes. This was detectives (albeit detectives in a narcotics unit) serving the warrant not a SWAT Team.
</div></div>
Smokshwn - no, actually this was my point exactly. That said, I never referenced SWAT - I referenced mutlicam and machine gun mentality in the pursuit of a bad guy when no one was in imminent danger and the bad guy was not known to be a violent person. Additionally I said I was not talking about this situation or the comments in this thread.
Good luck
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I can tell you first hand that if someone tries coming through my door, having only announced themselves as police without proper verification/identification before entering, people are going to be killed and especially when you're talking during the night. </div></div>
Exactly, and I cant fathom cops not thinking the same thing, therefore you'd think they would consider not entering someones's home by force, in the dark.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Lots of assumptions and bullshit in this thread based on a dislike for LE. Sounds to me like the fact that this guy (veteran or not) opened up with an AK either without knowing who he was shooting at (if you choose to believe he didn't hear them announcing) or intentionally opened up on LE, they made a wise decision to utilize something other than street officers to serve the warrant.</div></div>
Lots of assumptions? Like assuming the cops identified themselves sufficiently, what if the guy was half/fully asleep, or stoned? Maybe they just said Police as they went through the door, like you've said, nobody on this thread knows what really happened so you can no more tell me they did, just as I cant say that they didn't. The only reference I've heard of an AK from several of our local news reports was that a neighbor said it "sounded like one." Maybe he did have one, or something with even more firepower, at least that would explain why 6 "something other than street officers" got their asses handed them.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You want cops to stop enforcing the laws against marijuana?
</div></div>
I agree with you here, I have no problem with the officer's enforcing the law. I applaud their effort's to do so, and support them 100%, I do wish however they'd of taken a different course of action.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Do you really want them choosing which laws they enforce based on their personal beliefs? </div></div> See it every day in the news, and all too often in daily activities. Until Robocop is put into service I dont see it changing anytime soon.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You're right. They could have sent two uniformed officers to knock on his door at any other time of the day. This guy could have shot them both dead just as easily as he shot the other five. </div></div>
Again with the assumptions, it also could have ended with the two officer's escorting him out to their car, and searching the premises and locating the dope.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
This guy obviously had no intentions of going to jail. </div></div>
Again more assumptions! what could you possibly know about this guy's state of mind? Maybe you are completely right, or maybe completely wrong? We wont know for some time.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Had they sent regular uniformed officers the likelihood of more dead cops goes up as the weapon <span style="font-weight: bold">he used</span> easily defeats normal body armor.</div></div>
OH, so now its a fact? he <span style="font-weight: bold">USED</span> an AK47?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Where can I sign up for a job where I walk in and tell my boss that I'm not doing what I'm paid to do? </div></div>
Any number of government jobs.
We'll start with President of the United States of America and work our way down from there. </div></div>
+1,000,000
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I referenced mutlicam and machine gun mentality in the pursuit of a bad guy when <span style="font-weight: bold">no one was in imminent danger</span> and the bad guy was not known to be a violent person. </div></div>
EXACTLY^^
I'll end with saying again, I support LE, and have nothing against these or any other cops enforcing the laws. But people are still innocent until proven guilty. If the laws are stupid and need changing, I'm sure they will be fucked up by some politician. But none of that is LE fault. Good luck and be safe to those in the line of fire.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KillShot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I can tell you first hand that if someone tries coming through my door, having only announced themselves as police without proper verification/identification before entering, people are going to be killed and especially when you're talking during the night. </div></div>
Exactly, and I cant fathom cops not thinking the same thing, therefore you'd think they would consider not entering someones's home by force, in the dark.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Lots of assumptions and bullshit in this thread based on a dislike for LE. Sounds to me like the fact that this guy (veteran or not) opened up with an AK either without knowing who he was shooting at (if you choose to believe he didn't hear them announcing) or intentionally opened up on LE, they made a wise decision to utilize something other than street officers to serve the warrant.</div></div>
Lots of assumptions? Like assuming the cops identified themselves sufficiently, what if the guy was half/fully asleep, or stoned? Maybe they just said Police as they went through the door, like you've said, nobody on this thread knows what really happened so you can no more tell me they did, just as I cant say that they didn't. The only reference I've heard of an AK from several of our local news reports was that a neighbor said it "sounded like one." Maybe he did have one, or something with even more firepower, at least that would explain why 6 "something other than street officers" got their asses handed them.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You want cops to stop enforcing the laws against marijuana?
</div></div>
I agree with you here, I have no problem with the officer's enforcing the law. I applaud their effort's to do so, and support them 100%, I do wish however they'd of taken a different course of action.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Do you really want them choosing which laws they enforce based on their personal beliefs? </div></div> See it every day in the news, and all too often in daily activities. Until Robocop is put into service I dont see it changing anytime soon.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You're right. They could have sent two uniformed officers to knock on his door at any other time of the day. This guy could have shot them both dead just as easily as he shot the other five. </div></div>
Again with the assumptions, it also could have ended with the two officer's escorting him out to their car, and searching the premises and locating the dope.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
This guy obviously had no intentions of going to jail. </div></div>
Again more assumptions! what could you possibly know about this guy's state of mind? Maybe you are completely right, or maybe completely wrong? We wont know for some time.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Had they sent regular uniformed officers the likelihood of more dead cops goes up as the weapon <span style="font-weight: bold">he used</span> easily defeats normal body armor.</div></div>
OH, so now its a fact? he <span style="font-weight: bold">USED</span> an AK47?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Where can I sign up for a job where I walk in and tell my boss that I'm not doing what I'm paid to do? </div></div>
Any number of government jobs.
We'll start with President of the United States of America and work our way down from there. </div></div>
+1,000,000
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I referenced mutlicam and machine gun mentality in the pursuit of a bad guy when <span style="font-weight: bold">no one was in imminent danger</span> and the bad guy was not known to be a violent person. </div></div>
EXACTLY^^
I'll end with saying again, I support LE, and have nothing against these or any other cops enforcing the laws. But people are still innocent until proven guilty. If the laws are stupid and need changing, I'm sure they will be fucked up by some politician. But none of that is LE fault. Good luck and be safe to those in the line of fire.
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
No Knocks = Police State, end of story.
You can claim it's to save the children all you want, but in the end it endangers people on both sides of the law.
You would be hard pressed to present a condition that required one over isolating the BG and taking him down. Any condition that gives you enough time to bring in a SWAT team to serve a no-knock is a condition that could be handled without such tactics.
How many children did the Feds burn to death because they chose this method over apprehending Koresh at the local town weeks earlier as they had in the past?
How many people have been gunned down in their own homes because of a wrong address?
No Knocks = Police State, end of story.
You can claim it's to save the children all you want, but in the end it endangers people on both sides of the law.
You would be hard pressed to present a condition that required one over isolating the BG and taking him down. Any condition that gives you enough time to bring in a SWAT team to serve a no-knock is a condition that could be handled without such tactics.
How many children did the Feds burn to death because they chose this method over apprehending Koresh at the local town weeks earlier as they had in the past?
How many people have been gunned down in their own homes because of a wrong address?
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
If the guy was seen by his neighbor outside his home, why is there the need to bust in the door at night? There had to be a better/easier way of getting this guy outside his home and avoiding a cop being killed and others being shot. If the guy was a known murderer, kidnapper, rapist, had hostages, etc., then go for it. It seems needlessly risky.
If the guy was seen by his neighbor outside his home, why is there the need to bust in the door at night? There had to be a better/easier way of getting this guy outside his home and avoiding a cop being killed and others being shot. If the guy was a known murderer, kidnapper, rapist, had hostages, etc., then go for it. It seems needlessly risky.
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
HOW MANY TIMES DOES IT NEED TO BE SAID?
THE DOOR WAS NOT KICKED IN....THIS WAS NOT A SWAT OPERATION.
IT WAS DETECTIVES KNOCKING ON THE DOOR TO SERVE AN ARREST WARRANT AT 8PM IN ACCORDANCE WITH UTAH STATE CODE WHICH DESIGNATES THIS TYPE OF WARRANT BE SERVED DURING DAYLIGHT HOURS OF 6AM-10PM.
THE SUSPECT RESPONDED TO THE KNOCK AND ANNOUNCEMENT WITH GUNFIRE.
HOW MANY TIMES DOES IT NEED TO BE SAID?
THE DOOR WAS NOT KICKED IN....THIS WAS NOT A SWAT OPERATION.
IT WAS DETECTIVES KNOCKING ON THE DOOR TO SERVE AN ARREST WARRANT AT 8PM IN ACCORDANCE WITH UTAH STATE CODE WHICH DESIGNATES THIS TYPE OF WARRANT BE SERVED DURING DAYLIGHT HOURS OF 6AM-10PM.
THE SUSPECT RESPONDED TO THE KNOCK AND ANNOUNCEMENT WITH GUNFIRE.
Re: 6 officers shot in Utah
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">HOW MANY TIMES DOES IT NEED TO BE SAID?
THE DOOR WAS NOT KICKED IN....THIS WAS NOT A SWAT OPERATION.
IT WAS DETECTIVES KNOCKING ON THE DOOR TO SERVE AN ARREST WARRANT AT 8PM IN ACCORDANCE WITH UTAH STATE CODE WHICH DESIGNATES THIS TYPE OF WARRANT BE SERVED DURING DAYLIGHT HOURS OF 6AM-10PM.
THE SUSPECT RESPONDED TO THE KNOCK AND ANNOUNCEMENT WITH GUNFIRE.
</div></div>
<span style="font-style: italic">On Wednesday, at around 9 p.m. in Ogden, Utah, a 12-man "Narcotics Strike Force team" which included local police, Sheriff's officers, and members of the Drug Enforcement Administration [video] knocked on the door of Matthew David Stewart, in possession of a search warrant related to as-yet-unspecified drug charges. <span style="font-weight: bold">Police say there was no answer, so they kicked in the door.</span></span>
Story...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">HOW MANY TIMES DOES IT NEED TO BE SAID?
THE DOOR WAS NOT KICKED IN....THIS WAS NOT A SWAT OPERATION.
IT WAS DETECTIVES KNOCKING ON THE DOOR TO SERVE AN ARREST WARRANT AT 8PM IN ACCORDANCE WITH UTAH STATE CODE WHICH DESIGNATES THIS TYPE OF WARRANT BE SERVED DURING DAYLIGHT HOURS OF 6AM-10PM.
THE SUSPECT RESPONDED TO THE KNOCK AND ANNOUNCEMENT WITH GUNFIRE.
</div></div>
<span style="font-style: italic">On Wednesday, at around 9 p.m. in Ogden, Utah, a 12-man "Narcotics Strike Force team" which included local police, Sheriff's officers, and members of the Drug Enforcement Administration [video] knocked on the door of Matthew David Stewart, in possession of a search warrant related to as-yet-unspecified drug charges. <span style="font-weight: bold">Police say there was no answer, so they kicked in the door.</span></span>
Story...
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