Got it. I thought you guys were seeing the old school nodes where there is a dip etc. yeah. I see some that yield good es/sd. Thanks
- Thread starter Dthomas3523
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I was talking to a guy today at the range today and when I said I didn't believe in nodes I think he got offended.
He then said something to the effect of "you're wrong, yes, they exist" and then asked me "how do you explain it when something doesn't shoot then?"... and I said, "most of the time it's me, not the ammo, I don't think I've ever loaded a single batch that was ever bad enough to blame it all on".
The modern thinking is that if loads with small incremental changes in speed/depth appear drastically better than others in a similar range, it doesn't mean you've found a "node". It is more than likely just that you haven't shot enough rounds, and had a chance to observe a large enough sample size to see that they're actually performing relatively the same.
He then said something to the effect of "you're wrong, yes, they exist" and then asked me "how do you explain it when something doesn't shoot then?"... and I said, "most of the time it's me, not the ammo, I don't think I've ever loaded a single batch that was ever bad enough to blame it all on".
The modern thinking is that if loads with small incremental changes in speed/depth appear drastically better than others in a similar range, it doesn't mean you've found a "node". It is more than likely just that you haven't shot enough rounds, and had a chance to observe a large enough sample size to see that they're actually performing relatively the same.
I personally feel the "nodes" are bs, until you actually repeat the same test 3 times and it repeats. I've tried it that way, and it'll repeat only half the time or less. I prefer to shoot 2 or 3 shots at same charge weight ascending 0.2-0.3gr steps at 500-600y, you'll find velocity ranges with very tight vertical spread usually 0.4 or 0.6gr wide depending on case size that hold tight water line. This is where I load at. If the rifle shoots tight vert from 2880-2920 I'll pick a charge in the middle of there, and even if my es is 25, it's still going to shoot well at distance. This is referred to as ladder testing, but I have modified it a bit for my methods. Once the speed with tight vertical is found, and accuracy is sufficient(half moa at 500y)I'll stop. If not, I'll start with seating depth, adjusting in our out 0.010 steps. Has worked pretty well for me.
Agreed. I started doing 10 shot zeros after that podcast. Luckily my match rifles are all still 0.3Xmoa guns with 10 shot groups at 100y from a modified prone bag/bipod combo. But it gives you a really good idea of the true center of your cone of fire.
The only thing that appears to be certain is: if you can make the same round over and over again, like a clone of the last one, and just like the next... your ES and SD numbers will look good.
If you can do that, then chances are your shit will shoot lol.
If you can do that, then chances are your shit will shoot lol.
Small cases, absolutely. 6br, bra, gt, dasher 100% spot on. Magnums require testing. I could take a 300 norma and drop exact same charge of H1000 in perfectly prepped brass and seat a 215hyb at exactly 50k off lands, and it might shoot over an inch at 100y, seating depth in or out 25k, could shrink it dramatically, may need another 1.5 grain or 2 of powder to get it up another 60-70fps to get bug holes.
This 6GT is my first go around using "Varget" (Varget-clone Shooter's World Precision Rifle anyways) and it's magic sauce for sure. Stupid consistent. I don't have to break out the chronograph to know I'm in single digits with my SDs and my ES is good, just by looking at targets.
After ~2 years of using Sta-Ball 6.5 in 6CM, which can be hard and does one no favors... the magic sauce is stupid easy.
Varget, N150, TS15.5, H4350, RL16, it don't matter, the gt shoots as long your reloading practices are sound. 4166 works too but only if you're content with speeds mid 2800s and lower, but in that case you should be shooting a br based case.
I'm not really concerned with speed. IMHO once above ~2800fps, more speed doesn't really matter much as long as the accuracy looks good. A 6mm is never going to be a great "heavy wind gun" choice and that's the only reason I might even want to flirt with pushing one for speed...
I mean, it's not like any of us are going to run out of elevation in our scopes lol, 1000 yards was only 8mils at only 2820fps.
I'm digging the 6GT though, so far everything I've tried shoots, feeds perfectly, recoils less, hammers.
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Agreed. My 2920fps load in a 28" barrel is likely similar chamber pressure to a 26" with varget at lower 2800s. The GT will shoot very well 2820-2840, 2880-2920 and then again up near 3000 in experience with 5 barrels. Burn rate determines it a bit. I love the accuracy and repeatability so much I'm building a hunting rifle in 6gt for deer/antelope. Bat bumblebee action and a 22" 3B hawkhill 7tw to run supressed. Gonna be a fun lil toy.
SD 3.0?
What brass, bullet, powder, primer . . . ?
Can you tell us a little about how you reload, dies, neck tension, etc? I promise I will take the time to read carefully whatever you decide to share.
I am sure that has nothing to do with the recoil difference of a 300 norma vs a 6BR.
its almost like these smaller calibers are just easier to shoot small groups more often..........hrm
its almost like these smaller calibers are just easier to shoot small groups more often..........hrm
Alpha brass, cci450s, 109eldm, 35.9g h4350. Base to ogive using SAC tool-1.851”
These where annealed on a flame annealer, sized with a SAC sizing die(first gen) on a coax press, no mandrel, .266 bushing. Trimmed on a giraud trimmer, then cleaned, primed on primal rights, powder poured with a AutoTrickler and bullet seated with a sac die
I can’t tell you how far I’m off the lands as this was a load for another rifle. I shot it through this rifle when I got it and decided not to touch anything
Nice conditions on the range yesterday morning 19.7 degrees, barely discernable wind around a mph made for a good day on the range verifying 4DOF data. Load is Alpha brass 5th firing, FGMM primers, 32.5gr of RL-15.5 and 109 Hybrid's jumping .065" Barrel is a PROOF cut to 26" and chambered with a .170 Alpha reamer by Straight Jacket Armory, velocity 2857fps SD 7.
Curious what you guys are seeing for loaded neck diameter with Hornady brass? Barrel is on the big brown truck and trying to get everything needed.
Hickswr, hard to say, RL15.5 is very stable IME in the 6gt and I have been running it from the low teens this winter to 101 in last summer's heat at the positional punisher match in Kansas, but I can't compare it to RL16 as I have not used it enough to know. I can say that RL16 was very stable in my creedmoor loads.
Mine average about 0.269" on the second loading.
Thank you Mike!
109 Hybrid's seated for .065" jump, 32.0gr Varget in Alpha brass and FGMM primers, 2841fps, 5@500 10@700
Straight Jacket Armory 26" proof with a .170 alpha reamer. This ought to work well at our first Michigan regional match for 2023 next weekend.
Straight Jacket Armory 26" proof with a .170 alpha reamer. This ought to work well at our first Michigan regional match for 2023 next weekend.
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Sorry if I missed this but what size bushing is everyone using for alpha brass?
I'm using 267 redding, gives me 266-2665 after sizing and loaded is 269. I do not mandrel or expand, just seat a bullet. Gives me half moa groups at 700y, and 10 shot groups in the 3s at 100y. Es is mid to high teens generally.
I'm using a .266" custom-honed FL die followed by a .241" mandrel for the "Gay Tiger" headstamped Alpha cases that were available from GAP. Works beautifully.
I'm not disagreeing with this post just curious about your thoughts on barrel life. I had a previous 6gt barrel which I loaded with 4166 32.4gr 105's, consistent ES of around 10 (ten shot string) and SD of 3. Yes you are correct speed was only around 2800 but I also got 3200 rounds on that barrel. It was a hammer until then.
I think there is something to say for running a little slower to save barrel life, especially when you find a barrel that shoots and you want it to last.
my 2cents
I don't fault anyone running mid or low nodes. I run 28" barrels generally and run the 2900-2930 node with 109s using H4350. My last two barrels have been pulled at 2500 and still shot well. The extra 2" has been worth 40-60fps from what I've observed depending on burn rate, it takes me a slight increase in pressure to get to the next node VS a guy with a 26" barrel. When I ran 4166 to break in with 109s 32.4gr was right around 2840fps prior to speed up.
2850-2900fps seems to be the right zone for barrel life and also for what hammers from what I’ve seen.
I’ve got a bunch of SW Precision Rifle to use up, but I’m probably going to try 4831SC in the GT at some point…
I figure hitting full case fill it’d be right around ~2850fps or so…
I’ve got a bunch of SW Precision Rifle to use up, but I’m probably going to try 4831SC in the GT at some point…
I figure hitting full case fill it’d be right around ~2850fps or so…
I'm trying the heavy and slow approach this year. I went from 105's at 3010 (33.66g Varget) to 115 DTACs at 2725 (31.0g Varget) in 8X fired Hornady brass. JBM shows the DTACs at 2725 with the same wind drift as the 105's at 3010. Just a fun experiment.
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38.6 N555 is full but not compressed. Gives 2940 with 109LRHT in a 26” cut rifled Rock Creek. No pressure, I stopped there cause it is the happy place for the 109’s
I have all the other typical powders, but it shoots so well with the 555 I have not needed to try anything else.
I have all the other typical powders, but it shoots so well with the 555 I have not needed to try anything else.
I’ve been shooting 115’s and/or 112’s for a couple years now in 6mm and prefer the heavier/slower thing for sure over the lighter/faster approach with 105’s.
IMO it’s the same thing out until ~750-800, and past that the heavier bullets with more BC seem to be better for me.
YMMV
I've done some testing with H4831SC. 39.5 did well with 115 RDFs in a 7.5 twist 26" Bartlein. 2875-ish, slightly crunchy, but no pressure signs.
More details here: https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/6gt-current-loads-and-progress.6995239/post-10313879
Jumping in the GT pool. Varget, Alpha brass, 450's, 108 Bergers. Couple of questions:
- Starting load?
- This isn't the OCD brass. How worried should I be about this?
- Starting load?
- This isn't the OCD brass. How worried should I be about this?
Anyone suggestions for the Berger 115 VLDs? Varget, new Alpha OCD, 450s.
I see very conflicting reports of jump (60-100) vs little jump. Any concensus on what this bullet likes?
I see very conflicting reports of jump (60-100) vs little jump. Any concensus on what this bullet likes?
Generally, with VLDs the consensus seems to be either “jam them or jump them” meaning anywhere from jam to maybe 20 thou off, or something more like .040” off or more (sometimes way more). FWIW, I’ve never really had good luck with VLDs closer in.
For me, with a new bullet (especially a VLD) I like to try them out wherever having the neck within the meat of the bullet’s bearing surface ends up landing… which is usually in the ~50 to ~100 thou off neighborhood (base to ogive).
I find the longer I jump, the longer the barrel acts/stays the same, but if everything between say 50 and 100 thou off shoots, then I park it at 50 thou off and never have to really think about it again for the life of the barrel.
Should I be concerned with shortened barrel life if I find a load at jam - 20 vs something in the 50 - 100 range. OR are the hotter loads going to affect the barrel life much more than the short jumps? Or both? I'm guessing the hotter loads.
I've loaded a few 108 ELDs at 33.4gr of Varget, Alpha OCD, 450s with 60 jump that gave respectable groups, but my MPA barrel is still new, less than 50 rds and I'm getting used to the MPA BA Comp chassis when my Vudoo sits in an ACC. I like the ACC better.
I've loaded a few 108 ELDs at 33.4gr of Varget, Alpha OCD, 450s with 60 jump that gave respectable groups, but my MPA barrel is still new, less than 50 rds and I'm getting used to the MPA BA Comp chassis when my Vudoo sits in an ACC. I like the ACC better.
Keeping velocity/psi down is more beneficial to barrel life than longer jumps. You're already jumping 60k, that's plenty of jump.
From what I've seen, the longer the jump, and the lower the charge/slower speed, the longer the barrel life.
But in the end, go with what shoots, because barrels, like tires, don't last forever, YOLO lol!
Seriously, though, I'm still figuring things out a little for myself... there seem to be 2 ways to go about it: you can either find the longest jump the gun likes and then park it there and run it (I've had 2 6CM barrels that I've run 100 thou off like this and they both basically shot the same and consistent for their whole longer than usual lives), with a newer 6GT barrel, it shot great at 50 off all the way to 100 off, but due to the case and chamber being different/shorter than the 6CM barrels, I've been running it at 50 off and as the throat erodes it will back off and develop more jump "naturally".
That's why I mentioned the neck & bearing surface thing: using the exact same bullet, in 6CM, 100 off "looks better" meaning that the bullet isn't pushed back below where the shoulder starts, while in 6GT, somewhere ~60 thou off puts the bottom of the bullet below where the shoulder starts and 100 off would push the bullet a little too deep into the case for me... so I decided to leave the 6GT at 50 thou off. I haven't quite figured out if this neck/bearing surface relationship "is a thing" or just a coincidence yet, but it's been working out and I actually didn't notice it until after I'd already had the loads together (so I think it might be a thing lol).
The pic tells the story:
I’m not one of those guys who gets too deep in the weeds with reamers and chamber specs. I actually prefer SAAMI so I can always find the specs and remove any extra variables from the equation. YMMV.
But, yeah, different bullets “fit” differently depending on how long they are and depending on the case for sure.
I’d run my 6GT at 100 off too if the steeper/shorter shoulder allowed me to do it without having the ass end of my bullets below the shoulder.
But, yeah, different bullets “fit” differently depending on how long they are and depending on the case for sure.
I’d run my 6GT at 100 off too if the steeper/shorter shoulder allowed me to do it without having the ass end of my bullets below the shoulder.
I've seen split necks before, but this seemed unusual to me. Have you guys seen this before? It looks more like a blowout in the neck. Twice fired Hornady brass, did not anneal before pushing shoulder back 0.002" either time. Not sure of the exact load, but I used Varget to begin getting some velocity nubers with the 108 ELDs, and it never got past about 2950 max. Didn't notice it until I randomly picked this piece to see how my new AGS 3.0 annealer would cycle the brass through (no flame). While the case was spinning on the platform I spotted what looked like a mark from a marker that I was playing with. Upon closer inspection under a magnifying glass, this is what I saw. Haven't noticed this on any other pieces yet...
I’ve seen some new brass that had marks in that shape in them. My buddy bought some brass and several were that way. Some split after a couple firings and some are still going. Personally I wouldn’t have shot them but he did. Maybe yours was that way from the factory and you never noticed it?
Shot some dtacs today, knew 35.5 gr was good charge weight from ladder shot a few weeks back. Seated them 20k jump and spun the tuner a bit. Started at setting 0, 2, 4. 300y groups at setting 4 and 5. Maybe sample size was too small, but the 10 shot zero validation at setting 4 looks damn good. Es was 13 on 10 shot zero. Velocity is 2860 from a 28" 7.5tw hawkhill barrel. Will be shooting at 800y e target tomorrow for validation and roughing in BC prior to Saturdays local prs match.
Has anyone had issues with Hornady brass having oversized primer pockets? On a fresh barrel, I loaded up 50rds of Hornady brass with 33gr of N150 (taken as a safe load based on other posters data) and 112 MB. I also loaded 50 with 107 SMKs. While shooting I had three pieces of brass with primers just fall out after the shot. Velocities were ~2750 and I didn't see any extrusion of the primer or much anything else that would scream pressure. Chucked it up to 3 bad pieces.
Loaded up another 50 virgin pieces at 33.5gr N150 and am having almost every other one primers fall out after the shot. Velocities are ~2850-2900 and again no other signs of pressure.
While seating primers the was a lower amount of force needed than I thought but it's hard to quantify that. Bad lot of brass? Thinking I should switch to Alpha and avoid this mess. Also I should note there's no damage to the bolt face and accuracy is excellent.
Loaded up another 50 virgin pieces at 33.5gr N150 and am having almost every other one primers fall out after the shot. Velocities are ~2850-2900 and again no other signs of pressure.
While seating primers the was a lower amount of force needed than I thought but it's hard to quantify that. Bad lot of brass? Thinking I should switch to Alpha and avoid this mess. Also I should note there's no damage to the bolt face and accuracy is excellent.
@AirgunnerPCP what primers are you using? I notice in my Alpha brass that GMM primers don't have the same seating resistance as CCI primers. I haven't loaded any of the Hornady brass yet. I have 400 new pieces of Hornady GAP 6GT brass. Hopefully I don't have any issues.
Using CCI 450s. The same lot of primers had more resistance seating in multiple firings of FGMM 6.5CM brass.
I’ve been cycling through 400 pieces of Hornady that was originally loaded by Prime with 115RDF’s. 3rd firing & haven’t had to send any to the scrap bin.
My go to load has been 38.6 gr N555 with 109LRHT @2940 from 26” Primers have all been cci 41’s or BR-4. I can tell you the 41’s fit a little tighter than all others I’ve tried.
I just got my 400 pieces of gap in the last couple weeks. I wonder if it's the same lot as yours?
