6mm long range predator gun build

[JBrown]

This isn't true. 6 Creed will not match the case capacity a 243 has. That means that you will be able to run some of the slower powders in a 243 that you cannot in a 6 creed for the same velocity. In a creed you will end up topping out on velocity due to running out of case capacity. Actually a 243 will do everything at 6 Creed will do and more. The only thing the creed has going for it over the 243 is a longer neck. If that's what you want, check out the 6 SLR which beats both of those two. And it is one of the most simple cartridges to form. It happens on the first pass in a sizing die. Get you all the case capacity of a 243 with a 300 thou neck.

Agree that a 243 AI is a pretty decent answer as well. However, I do not think fireforming for it is a pain in the ass. It's actually really easy. Just run a couple rounds down the barrel to smooth out the throat and get a half-ass decent 243 varmint load going and then finish up your batch of brass with that load and then voila. It's all fireformed.

I would agree a 22 Creedmoor is a good answer, but I definitely think a person needs to consider their barrel twist carefully and take advantage if they are at a higher altitude of using a slower twist.

6creed with the powders I have run, pushes bullets 100-150fps faster than any 243 I have seen. For example, I don’t know if anyone pushing an 87vmax at 3600 in a 243. I do it in my 6 creed with staball 6.5

I can run 70 BTIPS in my 6 creed at 3780 with varget. Haven’t seen anyone run them that hard in a 243.

I agree that when you load the same powder charge in a creed and 243, the 243 will get a couple FPS faster but you can run a 6 creed harder without crazy pressure signs. Not that the 243 is a slouch. In all reality it doesent matter. Both will reach their destination with energy to spare for coyotes but I’ll put my creed up against any 243 in a speed contest.

 

[xdeano]

Im running 88grn hammer hunters in my sons 6GT at 3340fps. Knocks the socks off white tail deer!

I use to run a 22-243 with 80grn bergers at 3500fps. Its a mild load.

Xdeano

 

[MakeSawdust]

Less case taper and sharper shoulder angle hide pressure signs. 70kpsi in a Creed looks like 60kpsi in a 243 win. I pulled those numbers out of my ass. That's why 243 Ackley puts up such good numbers when it shouldn't really be much different than a 243. We don't run pressure tests, so when flying by seat o pants some look better than others. That's my theory. In reality....

 

[JBrown]

Less case taper and sharper shoulder angle hide pressure signs. 70kpsi in a Creed looks like 60kpsi in a 243 win. I pulled those numbers out of my ass. That's why 243 Ackley puts up such good numbers when it shouldn't really be much different than a 243. We don't run pressure tests, so when flying by seat o pants some look better than others. That's my theory. In reality....

That’s exactly the conclusion I have come to. If we are loading our ammunition up to the point of harsh pressure signs, the creed won’t show them as soon as the 243

 

[JBrown]

Less case taper and sharper shoulder angle hide pressure signs. 70kpsi in a Creed looks like 60kpsi in a 243 win. I pulled those numbers out of my ass. That's why 243 Ackley puts up such good numbers when it shouldn't really be much different than a 243. We don't run pressure tests, so when flying by seat o pants some look better than others. That's my theory. In reality....

See the post below. That’s the conclusion I have come to but I could be wrong.

If you look at the published data, those companies publishing it are also showing the creed winning in the speed department.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I still don’t think there’s a better predator rifle than a 6creed or 243 running 95gr LRX. It drops coyotes at distance with authority and you can even hit fox and bobcats close up without absolutely destroying the fur.

Regarding 6 creed vs 243, I was a 243 fan for a long time but I wouldn’t trade a 6 creed for one. I found it far easier to load for and there’s much better factory ammo options. Everything 243 is centered around slow twist rates and that’s unlikely to change.

 

[JBrown]

So by running your 6 creed harder in the 70K - 80K than another cartridge at 60K, you make a blanket statement that the Creed is a faster round?

"How is the 6 Creed a naturally faster cartridge than the 243?"

"Simple! I run it harder and sandbag the 243"

.... okay

That’s not how hosgdon see it as well as other powder manufacturers that produce load data for both cartridges.

I have no idea what my pressure is because I don’t have a pressure test barrel but if you just read the data from the manufacturers, they are pretty easy to see that they are not getting pressure anywhere near that high. Again I think pressure is seen earlier in the 243 but I don’t think the pressure differences are anywhere near that

 

[xdeano]

The problem with the 6creed is that it has to use a faster and hotter powder to achieve its velocity. What kills a barrel faster? Pressure + heat + velocity... If you can run a slower burning, cooler burning powder and much less pressure but still retain the velocity you'll win on barrel life. This is precisely what I did when I had a good friend chamber a 6SLR for me years ago. The case size allows me to run slower powder which fills the case. Funnels it down the 30 degree shoulder and down the long neck pushing the heat further down the barrel. Ive pushed a 105grn bullet out of 24" barrels for many years and killed a couple of coyotes doing so at 3050fps. There is also a node in that 3150 and 3300fps mark too, but I tend to not go up there because I shoot a coyote or 2 during the summer and fall when the temps are higher.

My thought pattern behind this is to get as many rounds down the tube as I can before I have to swap the barrel. Cost per round isnt going down these days. I can just hear you guys chattering your teeth because I'm not over pressuring and chasing that 3300fps mark to kill a coyote. Plain and simple they tip over all the same, trust me.
Xdeanon

 

[MakeSawdust]

I was just looking at the hodgdon site. The new 6 Creed data is in line with what I see when testing. Obviously I don't have a pressure test barrel, but I don't get nervous until I get to their numbers. I have been getting much better numbers than they claim in 243 and 243AI for several barrels.

Honestly, the numbers they give for the 6 creed are impressive for a 24" tube. The numbers they give for 243 and 6 rem with heavy for caliber bullets are laughable. I really don't have the best explanation for it, but I can say that in my real life experience it plays out about like you would expect. Bigger cartridges can get to higher velocities with the right powders. Maybe the testing isn't as much of an exact science as we like to believe.

Also, once the case is big enough to use h1000 or n165 the barrel life goes up significantly compared to 4350, RL16, RL17 type powders. I have wanted to try n160 in a 6 creed or 6xc for a while to see what the velocity and barrel life numbers look like, but the 243ai with h1000 works so well I don't have a desire to change.

I do not shoot suppressed, so I run a 26" barrel. Maybe dropping to a 22 or 24 would really shackle the slower powder loads and then it would be back to the n160 burn rate for velocity and maybe even the higher energy powders. Barrel life will suffer by around 50% though unless maybe n160 would maintain the long life.

I have looked at the long range coyote gun situation a bunch. You can replicate the numbers from my 243AI with 105s in a 22gt with 88 eldm. The only difference is energy on target. I don't think that will make a damn bit of difference on coyotes. If you want it to go faster you can run 77tmk. You will get good expansion with the plastic tipped bullets and last I checked the fur isn't even worth anything in parts of the country with pale coyotes, let alone dark ones.

Based on reports on the internet (suspect maybe) the barrel life numbers in 22gt with 4350 burn rate powders is decent.

If I really wanted to drag race, I would do it with a 25 sst or neck it down to 6 if you want to stay there. The bc on the 25 is much better though. At $2/PC brass, expensive dies, and pay to play reamers, it is definitely a cost is no object game at the moment. If a hunting gun barrel will last a decade then who cares? If you shoot 300 coyotes a year then a guy might want to think about barrel life especially with fur prices where they are.

You could also go the other way and run a 22 creed if long range is really mid range and all you want is speed.

The world is you oyster, but there is definitely a price to pay for crazy fast velocities.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I will concede. There is probably some merit to case geometry that supports a certain type of internal pressure and muzzle velocity. But by and large I do not think the 99% of us shooters really understand it. And therefore I think we talk about it like magic voodoo place way too much credence in it. It's also the stuff of salesmanship and marketing. At the end of the day I do not think it can trump sheer case capacity.

When speaking in the context of big 6mm's, even to the extent of bringing up a 6PRC, mo' capacity is going to produce mo' velocity. And for @JBrown I'll include this caveat: all things being equal.

To @redneckbmxer24 's point, of all the 6mm's, I don't own a 243. I think we all grew up seeing 243s on shelves at local gun stores. They were what people would introduce young kids to deer hunting with. Normally people used 300 win mags and 7Rem mags for east coast whitetail, which is pretty laughable when I think about it now as an adult. So I think we all have that bias about the 243. Factory guns, slow twist barrels and 85 grain pro hunter yellow box Remington core locked ammo. But if the discussion is about custom built guns and loading your own ammo (remember the 6 XC and 6 PRC has been included) then there is no reason a 243 won't do everything at 6 Creed will and more. But the real reason not to own a 243 is the 6 SLR.

At the end of the day, xdeano is right. 3100, 3300, or 3750, doesn't matter to the animal that you shoot it with.

I shot 243 exclusively for years in competitions in customs and AI's with AINA barrels. It did well for a long time but then I started getting lots of H1000 that were giving me fits in 243 but worked fine in 300WM and others so I tried H4831 and H4350 and never got the consistency I got with H1000. I tried numerous lots, barrels, bullets, new lapua brass. Switched to Creedmoor and it all went away. It's just easier to load for.

You can achieve a little more velocity with 243 but thats about it. With H4350 I found velocities to be similar across them as pressure happened at about the same charge, I'd say on average the creedmoor actually had higher velocities with it based on where the nodes ended up. 243 with H1000 was running the same or just less than both with H4350. I only ever saw more velocity with 243 from H4831, I had 105 Hybrids going over 3400fps before seeing pressure. They shot like hot garbage going that fast though. The best consistency and accuracy I got was down around the same speed that H4350 and H1000 produced the best results.

 

[xdeano]

Makesawdust,
I like the idea of the 25sst. Ive chambered up a couple of barrels in 25PRC, 25Saum. The guys are shooting 131 and 133s. But theyre after deer, the 25 is hard on deer!

When spring come around I switch from a 6mmSLR to a 6.5saum with 135s atips at 3150fps for poking coyotes because they get a little cagey. Its not to hard on fur either, quarter size exits on broad side shots.

Xdeano

 

[JBrown]

I will concede. There is probably some merit to case geometry that supports a certain type of internal pressure and muzzle velocity. But by and large I do not think the 99% of us shooters really understand it. And therefore I think we talk about it like magic voodoo place way too much credence in it. It's also the stuff of salesmanship and marketing. At the end of the day I do not think it can trump sheer case capacity.

When speaking in the context of big 6mm's, even to the extent of bringing up a 6PRC, mo' capacity is going to produce mo' velocity. And for @JBrown I'll include this caveat: all things being equal.

To @redneckbmxer24 's point, of all the 6mm's, I don't own a 243. I think we all grew up seeing 243s on shelves at local gun stores. They were what people would introduce young kids to deer hunting with. Normally people used 300 win mags and 7Rem mags for east coast whitetail, which is pretty laughable when I think about it now as an adult. So I think we all have that bias about the 243. Factory guns, slow twist barrels and 85 grain pro hunter yellow box Remington core locked ammo. But if the discussion is about custom built guns and loading your own ammo (remember the 6 XC and 6 PRC has been included) then there is no reason a 243 won't do everything at 6 Creed will and more. But the real reason not to own a 243 is the 6 SLR.

At the end of the day, xdeano is right. 3100, 3300, or 3750, doesn't matter to the animal that you shoot it with.

I completely agree that a coyote getting hit won’t know the difference. I think a lot of guys chasing the speed are doing so because unless you are spending 20-30k on a thermal clip on with a 5-8k rangefinder, we are stuck with dedicated thermal scopes and the speed helps to alleviate issues with accurately ranging coyotes. Especially a running coyote.

Most of these guys (myself included) are hunting coyote contests and every coyote matters. Barrel life is almost irrelevant. As we already spend wayyyy too much money just to kill coyotes. Any rifle that I can get 1k+ rounds out of, I’m happy. The 6PRC isn’t really an option because I like to have 200 rounds loaded for a contest. After load development and checking zero before each hunt, you are left with maybe enough barrel life for 3 contests if you are lucky. That means changing barrels mid season and for me that’s just not something I’m interested in doing.

Either way, we all have our preferences and there certainly isn’t anything wrong with running a 243. I have them both.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I have had that happen before with different cartridges. And I watched buddy's go through that as well. Thinking back on issues like that I've had and knowing what I know now, I'd point to lots of powder and a particular barrel or reamer than an inherent case design. Especially when it worked repetitively before. I've had a Krieger barrel in Dasher that shot great for the first 300rds and then just fucked the dog from there after. Couldn't wait to be done with it at 1300rds.

4831SC is a great powder for 6 SLR. I've had great luck with it. RL26 kicks ass in it as well. I wonder if you got consistency when your charge weight was close to 99% fill. When you got a funky lot of H1000 and tried a powder that wasn't that slow, lost it and found it again in 6Creed BC the smaller case capacity brought a faster(than H1000) powder closer to that 99% fill. Or maybe bc it's just H4350. I get much better consistency out of my Dashers with 4350 vs Varget. Which is a 100% fill. Crunchy

I've got a buddy that ran H4381 in his 243 AINA barrel and it shot great for him, we drove down to AINA and bought 243 barrels the same day, who knows if they were the same lot or not and his shot great with it but mine didn't. I tried H1000 though and it worked great until that barrel was toast plus a couple more. I revisited H4831 when I started having issues with the new lots of H1000 with similar results as the first. Those same lots of H4831 shot great in a 7mmRM and a 300WSM, and the H1000 hammered 215 Hybrids in two 300WM barrels with the same charge weight between all the lots with the lots being within 40fps of one another.

H4831 crunches good, H1000 it's as full as you want it to be with 243, you can crunch it seating the bullet the whole way down the neck and not see pressure. It never shot great there though. I tried H4831 in 6cm with 105 hybrids and 115 DTACs but it didn't have the consistency it did with H4350 and Varget. They're both really consistent in the 6cm with light and heavy bullets. What 65gr Berger BTHP's do to rabbits inside 500 yards is pretty spectacular to watch through thermal.

 

[MakeSawdust]

I've got a buddy that ran H4381 in his 243 AINA barrel and it shot great for him, we drove down to AINA and bought 243 barrels the same day, who knows if they were the same lot or not and his shot great with it but mine didn't. I tried H1000 though and it worked great until that barrel was toast plus a couple more. I revisited H4831 when I started having issues with the new lots of H1000 with similar results as the first. Those same lots of H4831 shot great in a 7mmRM and a 300WSM, and the H1000 hammered 215 Hybrids in two 300WM barrels with the same charge weight between all the lots with the lots being within 40fps of one another.

H4831 crunches good, H1000 it's as full as you want it to be with 243, you can crunch it seating the bullet the whole way down the neck and not see pressure. It never shot great there though. I tried H4831 in 6cm with 105 hybrids and 115 DTACs but it didn't have the consistency it did with H4350 and Varget. They're both really consistent in the 6cm with light and heavy bullets. What 65gr Berger BTHP's do to rabbits inside 500 yards is pretty spectacular to watch through thermal.

I agree that there is a lot not to like about using h1000 in a 243 Ackley. I hate using a drop tube and crushing powder. Bullet seating depths aren't as consistent, etc. I personally have never had accuracy issues that I couldn't fix with a primer. I have been through 6 barrels and have only used h1000 in 5 and n165 in another. I have only tried cci 200 and cci 250. I have had barrels that would shoot like dog shit and were fixed by changing primers. I have never had to change powders to get good accuracy, but I could see how it would happen.

Some barrels were better than others, but I have been able to get 1/2 moa with every Criterion prefit. When I started using Bartlein 5r chambered by a good gunsmith it pretty much eliminated load development. Everything within reason would shoot 3/8 or better for 5 shots. If it didn't, the primer change fixed it like magic. Of the 6 barrels, one Criterion and one Bartlein would shoot 1 hole (looked like one shot not a walleyes out 1/2") 3 and 5 shot groups pretty often when zeroing. It's worth mentioning that that's not really a good average as every 6 Dasher barrel I have had would do it. Those have also all been premium cut rifles barrels chambered by good gunsmiths.

It's also worth mentioning that I have never run Berger bullets in my 243s because I like to hotrod them with dtacs or shoot something cheap. The dashers have almost always been with Bergers. I will also say that I don't really push that hard. I tend to run 105s at 3150-3200 or 115s @ 3050-3100. Coyotes definitely don't notice. It hits like the hammer of Thor. I have seen guys run 70 Nosler BT at 4000 out of a 243 Ackley and that also flattens coyotes to 500 or 600 yards. I just like the familiarity with the heavy bullets in the 243ai that I have from running one in matches.

As far as thermal hunting and range uncertainty, I have had great luck with a 22/250 in the high 3900 fps range with 53 vmax and cfe223. It shoots flat and hits hard at the typical ranges for that application.

Like I stated previously, the world is your oyster. There is everything from mild to wild with a bunch of steps in between. A fast moving plastic tipped bullet through the vitals will break a coyote down quickly. After that, the nuances contain a lot of pros and cons and personal preferences. It's a lot of fun to discuss the differences and similarities.

Ultimately, what I have seen is getting familiar with a specific time of flight and shooting a lot of running coyotes with that consistent situation is good for learning. Once you figure it out it gets a lot easier to hit runners. When we change things up all the time it takes too much brain power to pull it off in a super-human fashion.