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7.62x54R cheap shooter
- Thread starter Greg Langelius *
- Start date
The next few weeks' schedules are all cluttered. Sat is new Kitchen sink/disposal install, Sun is Mothers' Day, otherwise forecasted as good shooting days, but no dice on the home front. But Getting that chamber burr(?) resolved and merging the Grandkiddos with the 91/30's will be high on the list of priorities. I think I may be able to explore the open end of the chamber by touch with my small finger and get some better feedback about the cause of the issue. It may be possible to lap it out with a dowel and some Emory cloth.
I think it's very easy to become obsessed with projects like this, and let's be honest, I'm obsessed with this one. But it's not my only iron in the fire.
I also confirmed/corrected the boresighting on my new Mossberg MVP 5.56 Predator, while also testing tentative 75gr handloads (23.0gr, 23.5gr, 24.0gr Varget, pressures look mild to moderate). Everything is working rather nicely. There's promise there.
Next up will be a new Gamo breakopen piston .177 scoped airgun with some sort of muffler thingie on the muzzle. It needs to be sighted in at near-in "Chuckie" distance (There are Invaders/Transients in the Back Yard).
Then, there's the .30BR FV rifle and ongoing club matches. Will be trying a newer downgraded IMR-4198 load spec, and investigating substituting 125gr Nosler BT's for the 125gr SRA SMK's after that.
I think it's very easy to become obsessed with projects like this, and let's be honest, I'm obsessed with this one. But it's not my only iron in the fire.
I also confirmed/corrected the boresighting on my new Mossberg MVP 5.56 Predator, while also testing tentative 75gr handloads (23.0gr, 23.5gr, 24.0gr Varget, pressures look mild to moderate). Everything is working rather nicely. There's promise there.
Next up will be a new Gamo breakopen piston .177 scoped airgun with some sort of muffler thingie on the muzzle. It needs to be sighted in at near-in "Chuckie" distance (There are Invaders/Transients in the Back Yard).
Then, there's the .30BR FV rifle and ongoing club matches. Will be trying a newer downgraded IMR-4198 load spec, and investigating substituting 125gr Nosler BT's for the 125gr SRA SMK's after that.
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Oboy, what was I thinking? Mothers' Day, right day of week, wrong week! And, Son-in-Law postponed sink install until Monday.
So as I sit here all alone, no transportation (Celia is OTR to PA to visit Niece), I am playing keyboard commando with no way to get anywhere else I'd rather be. Gotta find that chamber burr(?).
The best laid plans of Mice and Men...
So as I sit here all alone, no transportation (Celia is OTR to PA to visit Niece), I am playing keyboard commando with no way to get anywhere else I'd rather be. Gotta find that chamber burr(?).
The best laid plans of Mice and Men...
I feel your pain, man. I have been stuck in Marinette, WI for a week with no real way to get anywhere I'd like to be. Oh well, good luck with that burr!
this is just my experionce I bought a 1929 oct. recever full length nagont $115 I bought a boyds stock and did 5 min carving a releaf for ejector to work properly at my door $115 the barrle was cut in 1/2" intervals tell I got the patern as small as it would get at 21.5" crowned. the rifle was fitted with a canelever scope mt $29. the sear tang was shaved and narowed to give a crisp 3lbs pull I am threading the barrle to except a holland break $130 to tame the recoil. silver tips I am cosistently hitting a 8" plate at 715yds with a $30 barska 6.5x20 scope I will try 1000yds as soon as sholder heals from surgery. it is my thought if you can. a longer guns have a thicker dieamete.r mine is just over 5/8" at muzel please forgive my poor gramer I r gunners mate lol if I can figure this computter thing out I will post apic
Greg, Have you heard of the Brass Stacker scout mount? It allows you to still use your iron sites out to 100 yards. It seems like a decent deal at $60. I have been tempted by the new ProMag Archangel stock. It offers a DBM, adjustable cheep piece and LOP for around $150. combine these two things with a EER scope and you have yourself a neat little scout rifle. you obviously have the glass covered. But I was thinking for my M38 a setup like this with a Leatherwood EER scope would make a great bush/kick around gun for here in MI.
Yes, among a number of others; and I am not finished trying out various mounts. For now I'm sticking with this setup, maybe I'll try other someday. I chose the one I have because it has the potential for a much lower optical axis.
Greg
Greg
Home improvement projects and Mothers' Day occupy the calendar this week, and weather is iffy. After the on-the-fly home improvement outlays, am on a financial diet for the next..., lifetime?
Hoping to get out and finish zeroing/shoot some definitive groups sometime in the next week or so. Still have to diagnose/fix(?) the one 91/30 with the sticky chamber issue. Have a lifelong Buddy coming up to stay this coming week to help me use up some of my ammo.
The Brass Stacker mount is very tall, pretty much the opposite of what I've been trying to achieve. I like the Archangel stock a lot, but the mag choices are 5rd and 10rd. The original Mosin already has a 5rd, and the 10rd would be illegal (*&%$#@@!!!) here in NY.
Greg
Hoping to get out and finish zeroing/shoot some definitive groups sometime in the next week or so. Still have to diagnose/fix(?) the one 91/30 with the sticky chamber issue. Have a lifelong Buddy coming up to stay this coming week to help me use up some of my ammo.
The Brass Stacker mount is very tall, pretty much the opposite of what I've been trying to achieve. I like the Archangel stock a lot, but the mag choices are 5rd and 10rd. The original Mosin already has a 5rd, and the 10rd would be illegal (*&%$#@@!!!) here in NY.
Greg
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Got out yesterday/Friday with my buddy and his 91/30, modified as stated earlier.
His scope mount had loosened, so we had to tighten it back up and readjust the slope a time or three. Running the target to several intermediate distances, ended up getting him zeroed at 100yd.
This may not seem like much but his has major vision issues.
Starting with detached retina, a laser procedure uncovered an unseen speck of shrapnel, the laser (this was before green lasers were introduced for ocular procedures) engaged it, and it apparently dislodged/sputtered, creating a semi-shotgun damage pattern to his retina. He's pleased and amazed that he can hit something on demand that far out.
I'm calling it a good day.
Tomorrow/Sunday is the Odessa FV-250 Match, my first chance back at competing since last August. Miss 'E' and I are planning to compete.
Greg
His scope mount had loosened, so we had to tighten it back up and readjust the slope a time or three. Running the target to several intermediate distances, ended up getting him zeroed at 100yd.
This may not seem like much but his has major vision issues.
Starting with detached retina, a laser procedure uncovered an unseen speck of shrapnel, the laser (this was before green lasers were introduced for ocular procedures) engaged it, and it apparently dislodged/sputtered, creating a semi-shotgun damage pattern to his retina. He's pleased and amazed that he can hit something on demand that far out.
I'm calling it a good day.
Tomorrow/Sunday is the Odessa FV-250 Match, my first chance back at competing since last August. Miss 'E' and I are planning to compete.
Greg
After a few more brief range excursions with the four 91/30's progress has been slow but positive. The main bottleneck seems to be my spreading myself too thin on the line. Between coaching my Buddy and tweaking his scope setup, bringing our two Grandkids up to speed, and refining several rifles' zeros out to increasingly greater distances; a bunch of goals are not getting reached.
Two of the rifles are still at an intermediate stage of getting their scope base slope angle refined, and one of those has an issue with a sticky bolt. For this last item, the chamber does not appear to be involved, and I'm beginning to suspect some issue with the trigger. Oddly, the bolt appears to free itself if I raise the bolt handle to vertical and give it a rap forward, then pull it normally to the rear. More investigation is in the queue.
Atop all this my 16 Y/O 5' 3"/110lb Granddaughter is having misgivings about the M-N's recoil. We're taking that part slowly.
My best guess is that I'm going to need a day alone at the range to sort out the mechanical features of these issues.
Greg
Two of the rifles are still at an intermediate stage of getting their scope base slope angle refined, and one of those has an issue with a sticky bolt. For this last item, the chamber does not appear to be involved, and I'm beginning to suspect some issue with the trigger. Oddly, the bolt appears to free itself if I raise the bolt handle to vertical and give it a rap forward, then pull it normally to the rear. More investigation is in the queue.
Atop all this my 16 Y/O 5' 3"/110lb Granddaughter is having misgivings about the M-N's recoil. We're taking that part slowly.
My best guess is that I'm going to need a day alone at the range to sort out the mechanical features of these issues.
Greg
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Greg, did you try a Limbsaver? It is amazing what that will do for recoil. My 30.06 is unbearable without it, but quite manageable with it.
Yes; an essential part of the 'improvement package' is a Limbsaver and a Beartooth Comb Riser. She's really just a tiny Minnie Mouse and gets the worst of the recoil effects. I sympathize with her, but the net result is she's developed a monster flinch, and that's our next training issue.
Greg
Greg
We seem to be in a Summer weather pattern, basically it rains every day in the afternoon, except when it rains off and on all day long. Between finishing up painting the porches and rails, plus bringing these 91/30's to fruition/completion; matters are down to a snail's pace.
After all my initial research, some of my underlying thoughts appear to be bucking the wind of reality. I mean, each rifle I've shot has demonstrated the mount getting loose at least once after the initial shakedown. It's a hassle, even if its a small one; things are taking a lot longer to sign off.
I've reinvestigated the more popular mounting philosophies; and I'm going to try the higher profile 30mm rimfire 11/12mm dovetail mounted rigs. These mount directly to the grooved dovetail on the barrel that supports the original leaf sight base. I have two inexpensive but rugged looking pairs on order, due the 28th.
Regarding the sticking bolt issue; I'm going to swap out two of the trigger/magazine assemblies, and see of the problem follows the trigger assemblies between the two guns. BTW, my Grandson has gotten himself bogged down in some behavioral/academic work hassles, and is grounded until further notice; so if parts swaps are necessary, they will come off his rifle and onto his Sister's.
Greg
After all my initial research, some of my underlying thoughts appear to be bucking the wind of reality. I mean, each rifle I've shot has demonstrated the mount getting loose at least once after the initial shakedown. It's a hassle, even if its a small one; things are taking a lot longer to sign off.
I've reinvestigated the more popular mounting philosophies; and I'm going to try the higher profile 30mm rimfire 11/12mm dovetail mounted rigs. These mount directly to the grooved dovetail on the barrel that supports the original leaf sight base. I have two inexpensive but rugged looking pairs on order, due the 28th.
Regarding the sticking bolt issue; I'm going to swap out two of the trigger/magazine assemblies, and see of the problem follows the trigger assemblies between the two guns. BTW, my Grandson has gotten himself bogged down in some behavioral/academic work hassles, and is grounded until further notice; so if parts swaps are necessary, they will come off his rifle and onto his Sister's.
Greg
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There's an incentive for Grand-son to behave---sister gets parts from his gun---I like it! Hope the dovetail method works well.
I just got a Swiss K-31, and a new set of sights for my Garand. Between the two, I am having a good time---when I can get to the range---learning to use iron sights. Wish I'd started that path earlier, but better late than never.
Wishing you all the best with your continued journey down the Nagant path. I do hope to get one myself some day. This old military rifle bug is a bad one. Each one increases the desire to get a new and different one to add to the collection. They all have unique stories to tell, and history to learn about.
Regarding my Granddaughter's recoil sensitivity, I have an idea.
I might try a modest load development project involving pulled bullets/powder (charges?) from bulk steelcase 7.62x39 seated into some surplus Russian primed steel cases.
I can reload the leftover bulk 7.62x39 primed steel cases with IMR-4198 and 110 V-Max/125 Pro-Hunter projectiles for the Savage 10FCP Scout (which uses a .308 bore...; and then again, there are the two SKS's, as well...)
This could turn out to be quite a lot of fun using existing/onhand cheap bulk ammo as handloading components to develop moderately more accurate loads for specific rifles in my collection.
I have all the dies and a collet puller with the correct collets to make all this work.
When all God gives us is lemons, we can still make us some fine lemonade. There is no good reason why we should have to settle for the performance of cheap surplus ammo simply because that's all that's currently available. Already, the mind boggles (well, just a little...).
Also, the high dovetail 30mm rings are in-house.
Greg
I might try a modest load development project involving pulled bullets/powder (charges?) from bulk steelcase 7.62x39 seated into some surplus Russian primed steel cases.
I can reload the leftover bulk 7.62x39 primed steel cases with IMR-4198 and 110 V-Max/125 Pro-Hunter projectiles for the Savage 10FCP Scout (which uses a .308 bore...; and then again, there are the two SKS's, as well...)
This could turn out to be quite a lot of fun using existing/onhand cheap bulk ammo as handloading components to develop moderately more accurate loads for specific rifles in my collection.
I have all the dies and a collet puller with the correct collets to make all this work.
When all God gives us is lemons, we can still make us some fine lemonade. There is no good reason why we should have to settle for the performance of cheap surplus ammo simply because that's all that's currently available. Already, the mind boggles (well, just a little...).
Also, the high dovetail 30mm rings are in-house.
Greg
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Dangit! I'm gonna build me an Ark!
After posting that last post, I went out to get the propane grill's tank filled, and got deluged going to, during, and coming home. The weather forecast for every day this week is 70% or higher Thunderstorm, humidity in the 70% or higher, cloud coverage in the 90% range, just like last week, just like the one before.
This is getting monotonous!
Greg
After posting that last post, I went out to get the propane grill's tank filled, and got deluged going to, during, and coming home. The weather forecast for every day this week is 70% or higher Thunderstorm, humidity in the 70% or higher, cloud coverage in the 90% range, just like last week, just like the one before.
This is getting monotonous!
Greg
One of the very few rifles I ever regret selling was a Finnish Mosin-Nagant that LOVED that Czech ammo you are talking about. It was one of the ugliest rifles I have ever owned, but it had a great bore, I paid $125 for it, sold it for $200, and it shot as good as my national match garand. I would surprise the dickens out of people when they were both on the shooting bench. I would have someone shoot a group with the Garand, then have them shoot a group with the Mosin. Everyone was stunned that such an ugly rifle shot that good with iron sights. Both rifles would put 5 into 1.5-1.75 inches at 100 yards. With my old eyes and iron sights, I thought that was pretty spectacular. I should never have sold it, but at the time, I had more rifles than time to shoot them.
Well, the jury's in on the current scope mounting system, and it's a conviction, not an acquittal. They are not solid and vibrate loose under recoil.
Not a show stopper; just a confirmation of yet one more way not to do this thing.
I already have two sets of heavy duty high 30mm rimfire/airgun rings to install directly onto the barrel's sight mounting grooves. Part of the install will include drilling the ring's dovetails to use the original sight mounting pin holes in the barrel, so nothing walks under recoil.
Meanwhile, the Noachian Deluge has been replaced with high 80's and 90's and humidity. I can't handle above 80 and am in hibernation/siesta under the A/C for the duration.
Greg
Not a show stopper; just a confirmation of yet one more way not to do this thing.
I already have two sets of heavy duty high 30mm rimfire/airgun rings to install directly onto the barrel's sight mounting grooves. Part of the install will include drilling the ring's dovetails to use the original sight mounting pin holes in the barrel, so nothing walks under recoil.
Meanwhile, the Noachian Deluge has been replaced with high 80's and 90's and humidity. I can't handle above 80 and am in hibernation/siesta under the A/C for the duration.
Greg
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As to recoil and small grandkids.
I built a 308 for my grandson, and like your granddaughter recoil was a problem. I solved this by loading up some light 308 loads using Trailboss. Now he loves to shoot the rifle. No signs of flinching.
I also use Trail Boss in my Mosin using cast bullets, makes for some great, cheap, offhand practice. Personally I don't think the Mosin is that hard of a kicker but I'm not 100 lbs either. Still I use cast bullets and mild loads for most of the shooting with my Mosin.
I built a 308 for my grandson, and like your granddaughter recoil was a problem. I solved this by loading up some light 308 loads using Trailboss. Now he loves to shoot the rifle. No signs of flinching.
I also use Trail Boss in my Mosin using cast bullets, makes for some great, cheap, offhand practice. Personally I don't think the Mosin is that hard of a kicker but I'm not 100 lbs either. Still I use cast bullets and mild loads for most of the shooting with my Mosin.
Currently working up a rework of the Russian light ball steelcase surplus loads incorporating bullets from TulAmmo 7.62x39 and reduced charges. Her 91/30 has a Limbsaver Slip-On and a Beartooth foam cheek riser pad.
PS the Van's instrument cluster reported 99F today.
PS the Van's instrument cluster reported 99F today.
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We're starting to see some breaks in the usually dismal and oppressive weather forecasts. Still rains most days, still goes over 80 most days, but not as many days. Unfortunately, the list if Honey-Do's is growing in anticipation of better conditions outdoors, too.
May be some further progress to report soon.
The issue with the sticking bolt may be due to stock compression. Will be shimming things and checking out that diagnosis.
Will also be replacing one scope mount contraption with simple dovetail rings of the barrel grooves for testing. Will also be pinning those rings.
Greg
May be some further progress to report soon.
The issue with the sticking bolt may be due to stock compression. Will be shimming things and checking out that diagnosis.
Will also be replacing one scope mount contraption with simple dovetail rings of the barrel grooves for testing. Will also be pinning those rings.
Greg
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Wait a minute. The 7.62X54R Mosin round isn't suppose to be shot in fair weather. You need to wait until it gets 20 below and the snow blowing 60 miles an hour. Haven't you read about the Winter War or the Eastern Front in WWII.
Was that with or without the spike bayonet attached, the troops defending mother Russia were told to leave it on.
That or as the other fellow suggested adjust the front sight.
Happy Shooting!
Bayonet was off, and it's staying off.
The latest evolution is failing, it keeps shooting loose.
I gave my Buddy a pair of very sturdy 30mm airgun rings, which he has mounted directly to the barrel dovetail and pinned using the original sight pin holes. It's zeroed and staying zeroed after about 50 rounds. This one may work.
I just ordered a dovetail to Weaver scope mounting adapter and a pair of Burris Signature 30mm Zee rings. At about $75, this option is pricey, but I think it's worth trying. Know soon...
Greg
The latest evolution is failing, it keeps shooting loose.
I gave my Buddy a pair of very sturdy 30mm airgun rings, which he has mounted directly to the barrel dovetail and pinned using the original sight pin holes. It's zeroed and staying zeroed after about 50 rounds. This one may work.
I just ordered a dovetail to Weaver scope mounting adapter and a pair of Burris Signature 30mm Zee rings. At about $75, this option is pricey, but I think it's worth trying. Know soon...
Greg
Parts are in, removed the sight and replaced it with the dovetail-Weaver adapter. Remounted scope to new adapter using the rings that were on the other adapter, scope ends up a smidge higher. Still haven't pinned it. Will sight in/shoot it when time permits.
Things have been hectic the past two weeks.
Celia has just been diagnosed with arthritic deterioration of her hip joints, right is moderate, left is advanced. She's being prepared for joint replacement surgery in a few months. There are some preliminary issues that need resolving before she can undergo surgery. We're travelling/seeing various doctors several days each week.
Greg
Things have been hectic the past two weeks.
Celia has just been diagnosed with arthritic deterioration of her hip joints, right is moderate, left is advanced. She's being prepared for joint replacement surgery in a few months. There are some preliminary issues that need resolving before she can undergo surgery. We're travelling/seeing various doctors several days each week.
Greg
Progress of sorts; the 30mm/dovetail high profile rings I gave to my Buddy to use with his rifle have withstood around 100 shots using surplus 147gr ammo and have stayed in place; but are excessively high. He used Loctite, but did not pin the rings to the barrel dovetail.
My dovetail-Weaver adapter slid forward enough to displace the upper handguard after only 8 shots with TulAmmo 150gr. They were installed without pins or Loctite, and mounted with the existing Millet 30mm low rings. They support the scope at a useable height, but could be at least 1/4" lower.
I have ordered 30mm/dovetail medium profile rings to try out next.
Greg
My dovetail-Weaver adapter slid forward enough to displace the upper handguard after only 8 shots with TulAmmo 150gr. They were installed without pins or Loctite, and mounted with the existing Millet 30mm low rings. They support the scope at a useable height, but could be at least 1/4" lower.
I have ordered 30mm/dovetail medium profile rings to try out next.
Greg
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Most Mosin's I've seen shoot high. Mine shot 8 inches high at 100 yards when set on the 100 mark.
I wanted to keep the rifle in compliance with the CMP GSM Rules for Vintage Rifles which eliminate replacing the front sight. I found that ever .0061 movement of the rear sight moves the impact 1 inch at 100 yards. Therefore I needed to come down on the rear sight .0488 or raise the front sight.
It's much easier to lower the rear sight. I took the ladder sight off the rifle, put it in a milling machine and milled .0488 of the bottom of the slide part of the sight. This means its going to set .0488 lower on the sight base.
After doing this, its right on at 100 when set on the 100 mark, its on at 200 when set on the 200 mark, and so forth to 400 yards. I haven't shot mine past 400 as that's as far as my back yard range goes, but I have no reason to believe it would be different when I move out farther.
This modification also keeps the rifle within the CMP GSM Rules.
I wanted to keep the rifle in compliance with the CMP GSM Rules for Vintage Rifles which eliminate replacing the front sight. I found that ever .0061 movement of the rear sight moves the impact 1 inch at 100 yards. Therefore I needed to come down on the rear sight .0488 or raise the front sight.
It's much easier to lower the rear sight. I took the ladder sight off the rifle, put it in a milling machine and milled .0488 of the bottom of the slide part of the sight. This means its going to set .0488 lower on the sight base.
After doing this, its right on at 100 when set on the 100 mark, its on at 200 when set on the 200 mark, and so forth to 400 yards. I haven't shot mine past 400 as that's as far as my back yard range goes, but I have no reason to believe it would be different when I move out farther.
This modification also keeps the rifle within the CMP GSM Rules.
The 30mm/dovetail rings, three sets, have arrived, and have been mounted on two of my 91/30's, with the third set being held aside for my Buddy's rifle. A fourth set, sold as being elevation/windage adjustable, have been mounted on my third 91/30.
These medium rings appear to be about optimal height, with the objective bell clearing the front handguard by about 3/16" and the eyepiece bell clearing the receiver by just a little bit more.
The first type appear to be very solidly mounted on the sight dovetail, and have setscrew type recoil pin available if needed, but that would require a (simple) drilling of a retainer hole in the top of the sight dovetail.
The second (adjustable) type appear to be somewhat less solid, but may have an even chance of staying put anyway.
As weather permits in the coming mid-week, I will be test firing these rifles.
Mosins are supposed to shoot high at 100yd. Infantry were instructed to aim for the belt buckle so a POI somewhat above the POA would deliver a center-mass hit. Mine appear to have a POI/POA correlation at about 200yd on the lowest sight setting.
Greg
These medium rings appear to be about optimal height, with the objective bell clearing the front handguard by about 3/16" and the eyepiece bell clearing the receiver by just a little bit more.
The first type appear to be very solidly mounted on the sight dovetail, and have setscrew type recoil pin available if needed, but that would require a (simple) drilling of a retainer hole in the top of the sight dovetail.
The second (adjustable) type appear to be somewhat less solid, but may have an even chance of staying put anyway.
As weather permits in the coming mid-week, I will be test firing these rifles.
Mosins are supposed to shoot high at 100yd. Infantry were instructed to aim for the belt buckle so a POI somewhat above the POA would deliver a center-mass hit. Mine appear to have a POI/POA correlation at about 200yd on the lowest sight setting.
Greg
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Well, it begins to look like we have a winner.
The first type of rings mentioned in the last prior post were put through the sighting-in process yesterday. First at 9 yards, then 75 yards, and finally at 200yd, all distances verified with a laser rangefinder. A 75yd zero renders a POI 1 foot high at 200yd.
Once sighted-in, the rifle was fired with 25 rounds of 88/71 spamcan light ball military surplus to determine its dispersion at 200yd. Firing was performed from a bench with a standard rear bag placed under the rifle's forend. No effort was made to correct for wind, which was variable at 9:00 O'clock ranging from imperceptible to approximately 15mph.
The dispersion pattern was diagonal, low left to high right, with about 3 inches of vertical and about 6 inches of horizontal. I would consider its accuracy acceptable for a Soviet WWII Sniper rifle being fed military surplus light ball.
More importantly, the rings were rock solid, demonstrating zero evidence of displacement after a shooting session employing 50 rounds. So far, no evidence exists to suggest the recoil screw/lug needs to have any anchor hole drilled in the barrel dovetail (yet).
While less than stellar, the rifle's accuracy would appear to represent a stable platform upon which to do more dedicated load development. This will be done with three separate goals in mind. The first would be to see if the existing 88/71 light ball cartridges' components can be redeveloped with a more accurate charge. The second would be to see if the primed steel cases can be combined with 123gr-125gr projectiles extracted from 7.62x39 TulAmmo steelcase ball/hollow point and modern propellants as a reduced recoil load for my 110lb Granddaughter to shoot. The third would be to find a serious accuracy/hunting load using PPU brass, Hornady '303' caliber 150gr SP Interlocks, good primers, and IMR-4064.
I believe this project is finally at the stage where such goals could finally be considered realistic.
Other work will include redesign of the aft stock's cheek rest to employ the removable Allen Stock Pack with elevation pads made from laminations of 5mm thick neoprene craft foam sheeting, developing a reliable bipod mounting, perfecting the LOP length, and working out a viable Garand-type sling mounting/employment technique.
Ideally, these goals will be applied to all four rifles in the test group. In essence, the intent is to update the 91/30 to its potential as far as modern accessories can provide, suitable to a role as a practical, bare bones economy marksman's rifle.
Greg
The first type of rings mentioned in the last prior post were put through the sighting-in process yesterday. First at 9 yards, then 75 yards, and finally at 200yd, all distances verified with a laser rangefinder. A 75yd zero renders a POI 1 foot high at 200yd.
Once sighted-in, the rifle was fired with 25 rounds of 88/71 spamcan light ball military surplus to determine its dispersion at 200yd. Firing was performed from a bench with a standard rear bag placed under the rifle's forend. No effort was made to correct for wind, which was variable at 9:00 O'clock ranging from imperceptible to approximately 15mph.
The dispersion pattern was diagonal, low left to high right, with about 3 inches of vertical and about 6 inches of horizontal. I would consider its accuracy acceptable for a Soviet WWII Sniper rifle being fed military surplus light ball.
More importantly, the rings were rock solid, demonstrating zero evidence of displacement after a shooting session employing 50 rounds. So far, no evidence exists to suggest the recoil screw/lug needs to have any anchor hole drilled in the barrel dovetail (yet).
While less than stellar, the rifle's accuracy would appear to represent a stable platform upon which to do more dedicated load development. This will be done with three separate goals in mind. The first would be to see if the existing 88/71 light ball cartridges' components can be redeveloped with a more accurate charge. The second would be to see if the primed steel cases can be combined with 123gr-125gr projectiles extracted from 7.62x39 TulAmmo steelcase ball/hollow point and modern propellants as a reduced recoil load for my 110lb Granddaughter to shoot. The third would be to find a serious accuracy/hunting load using PPU brass, Hornady '303' caliber 150gr SP Interlocks, good primers, and IMR-4064.
I believe this project is finally at the stage where such goals could finally be considered realistic.
Other work will include redesign of the aft stock's cheek rest to employ the removable Allen Stock Pack with elevation pads made from laminations of 5mm thick neoprene craft foam sheeting, developing a reliable bipod mounting, perfecting the LOP length, and working out a viable Garand-type sling mounting/employment technique.
Ideally, these goals will be applied to all four rifles in the test group. In essence, the intent is to update the 91/30 to its potential as far as modern accessories can provide, suitable to a role as a practical, bare bones economy marksman's rifle.
Greg
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IIRC, someone here on the Hide managed to greatly increase the accuracy by pulling a large nunmber of rounds, and weighing the powder charge. Then reassembled them, wieghing each charge to be the average of what was in them to start. Just making them all the same.
The other thing, would be to use a better bullet.
And for a light recoil load, I am going to try, at some point, some Trail Boss loads. Get the velocity down to 1400 FPS or so, which still should be good for shooting out to 200 yards.
The other thing, would be to use a better bullet.
And for a light recoil load, I am going to try, at some point, some Trail Boss loads. Get the velocity down to 1400 FPS or so, which still should be good for shooting out to 200 yards.
168 SMK have been very accurate in mine out to 500 yards. Would like to try some 175's and see how it does.
If I distill the consensus correctly, the Finnish M39 is the Moisin Nagant of choice.
Assuming NRA good (or better) condition and decent (Lapua commercial?) ammo, are these ever sub-MOA rifles?
If so, are such specimens going to be as expensive as a... gulp... 'real' rifle? (that's a joke)
Assuming NRA good (or better) condition and decent (Lapua commercial?) ammo, are these ever sub-MOA rifles?
If so, are such specimens going to be as expensive as a... gulp... 'real' rifle? (that's a joke)
I looked into the '39's including doing some brief load development for my former Son-In-Law's rifle. Depending on the ammo, 1MOA with commercial ammo appears possible, and becomes more and more likely with load development. In the end, it can compete in accuracy with a good factory hunting rifle, but we still need to remember it's a military surplus rifle, albeit a consciously refined one. They're not cheap, and who knows what's excessive these days?
All this work to date on my own 91/30's has been devoted to providing a rifle that's stable enough to warrant load development. I think we've finally gotten that far, and it's a situation of that past being prologue.
This is where the real fun begins.
Greg
All this work to date on my own 91/30's has been devoted to providing a rifle that's stable enough to warrant load development. I think we've finally gotten that far, and it's a situation of that past being prologue.
This is where the real fun begins.
Greg
I have a '43 Sako M39 that has shot several sub-MOA groups with handloads. I would say that it averages at least 1 MOA with said loads. A 91/30 is also capable of this type of accuracy, but will usually be edged out by the M39. The biggest problem with most of the available Russian 91/30s is that they're refurbed in a haphazard manner. They were torn down and rebuilt with less attention to fit/finish than when they were first made. Their stocks are usually not inletted to the same standard as Finn rifles and most of the prewar/wartime stocks saw considerable use in their lifetimes, as well. Also, the Finn rifles will, on average, have bores that are in better condition. The general consensus IS that the M39 is a better rifle, because it just is. However, a 91/30 with an excellent bore and that has the proper parts/stock fit will not lose too much to the M39. The overall difference is not as great as some would have you believe.
I agree with John. Another reason that an M39 is usually superior is that the barrel is heavier and usually floated when issued. Great barrel makers made the barrels to a high standard(Sako, VKT, etc..) and the stocks were fitted by the Finns. A couple of my M39s shoot sub-MOA with Extra Match soviet ammo. Shotgun News Goldern Issue tested an M39 which IO had fitted with and 8X soviet scope and got sub-MOA with extra match and about MOA with S&B match.
About 15 years ago I was at a range and a guy comes up with an M39 offering to let me shoot it and telling me how outstanding they were. I look at a pretty ragged rifle and see some cheap surplus ammo and am thinking I will be lucky to hit the paper at 100 yds with those sights and my eyes. He insists so what the hey. I fired 2 rounds and the were 2 inches from point of aim and less than an inch apart. I bought one soon thereafter.
I don't recall whether I posted doing the average weight charge improvement, but it is among the strategies I tried. It turned out to be different from the published charge (for the 188/71 headstamp, 49.1gr of the original propellant), and the published charge was the more accurate of the two. Normally, I'd leave things right there, but each of these rifles of mine has a counterbored muzzle, which presents a different bore length than the original, which was presumably the length for which the arsenal loads were optimized. Hence, I will see if load development will help.
BTW, each rifle's barrel has been 'corked' in the traditional manner, but I substituted modern 2mm thick neoprene foam instead. I prefer 'corking' over free floating these barrels because of their length, diameter, and the limited stock/barrel channel clearance; and also because of the overwhelming prevalence of the practice in historic references.
Greg
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This Tuesday's range outing pitted my other two 91/30's (the pair of 1928 Hex) against he zeroing process. As luck would have it one of the scope attachments is off by enough to make it shoot about 3MOA right against a full left scope adjustment. I could remove the mount and employ my new Dremel to the dovetail rail, but I actually have a set of rings that include windage and elevation adjustability. As luck would have it, they are on the other 1928 Hex. So zeroing was halted until next session, which will have to be in two weeks because the Sheriff's Department has reserved the range for all of next week for annual quals. The weather is getting quirky with near frost overnight and forecasts in the 70's and 80's the next day; right now the pellet stove is taking the bite out of the morning indoors.
Greg
Greg
I have a Mosin Finnish M91 and it's an excellent weapon. Didn't put a whole lot of money into it, just added an optic and adjusted the trigger with spacers and a spring. I shoot surplus ammo, and never have to worry how much money I'm spending when I shoot it. This is at 500 yards. Compare the impact to .308
Looks like it shoots well enough, hits hard relative to the .308.
Scopes/rings swaps are completed, and both reticles are aligned left/right with the laser boresighter. The other rifle in my collection has a 200yd zero, and I'm going to get the others laser boresighted to a similar elev/wind setting. That should put them 'in the ballpark'.
The Beartooth cheek risers are removed, and Allen Stock Packs are installed with roughly 20mm of 5mm neoprene foam laminations on their undersides for Cheekweld height adjustments. Working on relocating or adding the forward sling studs on the centerline a bit aft of the rear stock bands to serve as bipod anchors; the cleaning rod/channel complicates these matters a bit.
Greg
Scopes/rings swaps are completed, and both reticles are aligned left/right with the laser boresighter. The other rifle in my collection has a 200yd zero, and I'm going to get the others laser boresighted to a similar elev/wind setting. That should put them 'in the ballpark'.
The Beartooth cheek risers are removed, and Allen Stock Packs are installed with roughly 20mm of 5mm neoprene foam laminations on their undersides for Cheekweld height adjustments. Working on relocating or adding the forward sling studs on the centerline a bit aft of the rear stock bands to serve as bipod anchors; the cleaning rod/channel complicates these matters a bit.
Greg
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Reregistering the 200yd zero after swapping the scopes/mounts and rebuilding the cheek support turned out to be a lengthy and tedious project. Things turned out to be (probably) very sensitive to parallax with the longer eye relief involved, even with the laser boresighting. But it's done. '188' Spamcan ammo zeroed at 200yd crosses the line of sight at around 70yd, arcs up to about 3"-4" high at 100yd, and drops back down onto the POA at 200yd. The preliminary 200yd group shooting registers at or just under 2MOA. The proper (for me) cheek support height comes out to just about 1" above the comb.
Greg
Greg
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As requested elsewhere on the forum, here is a list of links to the current additions and their sources:
Miscellaneous M-N replacement parts: buymilsurp.com
Aim Sport 2-7x42 30mm Scope w/rangefinder reticle
Scope-to-barrel dovetail direct-mount Rings 30mm
Allen Stock Pack
M44 Butt Pad Extension
Limbsaver Slip-On Butt Pad
Economy 52" Soft Rifle Case
M-N Stripper Clips
Repro WWII Springfield/Garand Ammo Belt, holds 20 loaded M-N Stripper Clips perfectly.
Greg
Miscellaneous M-N replacement parts: buymilsurp.com
Aim Sport 2-7x42 30mm Scope w/rangefinder reticle
Scope-to-barrel dovetail direct-mount Rings 30mm
Allen Stock Pack
M44 Butt Pad Extension
Limbsaver Slip-On Butt Pad
Economy 52" Soft Rifle Case
M-N Stripper Clips
Repro WWII Springfield/Garand Ammo Belt, holds 20 loaded M-N Stripper Clips perfectly.
Greg
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Another Tuesday with my Buddy Doc on the range. I gave him my rifle to shoot, so he can try the cheek rest setup I'm using. His vision issues make things like this extra slow and complex to resolve. He likes it but still feels he needs a considerably higher weld than mine. He also feels my rifle is a better shooter than his. It may be at that, I can't shoot his with the higher weld his cheek rest provides.
I opened up a new spamcan, this time with plant #60 ammo from 1980. Very nice, clean looking ammo, it lacks the silver tip, but is otherwise still 147(-ish)gr Light Ball Russian Surplus. Breaking one down, the charge comes out to precisely 49.1gr, exactly as per published spec. It shoots to the same POI as the plant #188 , but has a round group pattern as opposed to a more vertical string of the 188. Still does about 2MOA. Only fired five of each at 100yd, so this is not statistically relevant.
I also built up 20 rounds of 'managed recoil' loads using 125-ishgr bullets from PMC x39 ammo and 40gr of the TulAmmo source ammo. The bullets are .308 and did not seat firmly in the TulAmmo necks. The first round struck smack in the middle of the 100yd group from the 147gr Surplus, The second round collapsed into the case during feeding and was unusable, the third round was hand chambered and went 'click' when the sear fell. The primer had ignited, but the powder only burned a little of the way; so I now have a bullet stuck in the bore and a mess of unburned powder strewn in the bore and action. I will be addressing that later today.
So much for Tuesday.
Greg
I opened up a new spamcan, this time with plant #60 ammo from 1980. Very nice, clean looking ammo, it lacks the silver tip, but is otherwise still 147(-ish)gr Light Ball Russian Surplus. Breaking one down, the charge comes out to precisely 49.1gr, exactly as per published spec. It shoots to the same POI as the plant #188 , but has a round group pattern as opposed to a more vertical string of the 188. Still does about 2MOA. Only fired five of each at 100yd, so this is not statistically relevant.
I also built up 20 rounds of 'managed recoil' loads using 125-ishgr bullets from PMC x39 ammo and 40gr of the TulAmmo source ammo. The bullets are .308 and did not seat firmly in the TulAmmo necks. The first round struck smack in the middle of the 100yd group from the 147gr Surplus, The second round collapsed into the case during feeding and was unusable, the third round was hand chambered and went 'click' when the sear fell. The primer had ignited, but the powder only burned a little of the way; so I now have a bullet stuck in the bore and a mess of unburned powder strewn in the bore and action. I will be addressing that later today.
So much for Tuesday.
Greg
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It sounds like you'll need to find some .311 or .312 bullets, but then I guess you already figured that out. I took a quick look and right now it looks like 123-125 gr bullets are hard. Of course, you could always go the cast route.
I have a set of dies for the x54R that have expander buttons for both .308 and .311 bullets.
My major mistake was in using bullets from American (PMC) made ammo, which follows a policy of loading with .308 bullets. The next attempt will be made using Bullets from TulAmmo which should be ..311, but I'll be checking that anyway. Another alternative would be to do neck resizing using the .308 expander and SRA 125gr SPFB Pro-Hunters. They are designed for .30-30 loading and will need to be loaded down for the x54R, otherwise they will expand too vigorously in game.
Anyhoo, the bullet as only marginally stuck; two gentle taps with a 1pc .30cal brass rod dislodged it, and a couldn't really find any rifling marks on a cursory glance. The spilled propellant in the loading port/magazine was more of an issue, but still a fairly easy fix.
It would appear that the primer ignited but the loosely retained bullet and additional leade length prevented an actual propellant combustion; so the bullet got only lightly lodged in the throat by primer action alone. I'd call it lucky but nothing dangerous ever really happened. I'm not counting on the recurrence of any such luck.
Greg
My major mistake was in using bullets from American (PMC) made ammo, which follows a policy of loading with .308 bullets. The next attempt will be made using Bullets from TulAmmo which should be ..311, but I'll be checking that anyway. Another alternative would be to do neck resizing using the .308 expander and SRA 125gr SPFB Pro-Hunters. They are designed for .30-30 loading and will need to be loaded down for the x54R, otherwise they will expand too vigorously in game.
Anyhoo, the bullet as only marginally stuck; two gentle taps with a 1pc .30cal brass rod dislodged it, and a couldn't really find any rifling marks on a cursory glance. The spilled propellant in the loading port/magazine was more of an issue, but still a fairly easy fix.
It would appear that the primer ignited but the loosely retained bullet and additional leade length prevented an actual propellant combustion; so the bullet got only lightly lodged in the throat by primer action alone. I'd call it lucky but nothing dangerous ever really happened. I'm not counting on the recurrence of any such luck.
Greg
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After pulling all the bullets, they mic'd out at .311; so diameter wasn't the issue, it appears the seating depth (I tried to maintain the COAL) was insufficient. I resized the necks using the larger expander button, and readjusted the seating depth to line up with the bullet cannelure. The load is reduced from the original TulAmmo charge to 40gr of the same powder. With some luck, will get to try these rounds sometime in the next week or so.
Deer season is near and the weather is becoming less favorable for informal range outings, so this project is nearing its Winter hiatus, or basic completion, whichever comes first.
If it's a completion, it's a good one; IMHO. I think that overall, some reasonable goals have been met, and that this topic could serve as a path for a fair number of folks to follow. Maybe it deserves a status as a sticky?
Greg
PS Edited to add:
Just picked up a bargain hard case that should work OK, the reviews mention a 91/30 PU Sniper with butt plate extension fitting fine.
Deer season is near and the weather is becoming less favorable for informal range outings, so this project is nearing its Winter hiatus, or basic completion, whichever comes first.
If it's a completion, it's a good one; IMHO. I think that overall, some reasonable goals have been met, and that this topic could serve as a path for a fair number of folks to follow. Maybe it deserves a status as a sticky?
Greg
PS Edited to add:
Just picked up a bargain hard case that should work OK, the reviews mention a 91/30 PU Sniper with butt plate extension fitting fine.
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This has been an interesting thread. I have enjoyed reading each new development as you progressed through your saga. It would appear that you have enjoyed the journey, and found a type of fulfillment in pursuing the decent shooting, in-expensive surplus rifle.
Thanks for sharing.
Cheers,
Tim
The Right to Keep and Bear Arms Shall NOT be Infringed
Thanks for sharing.
Cheers,
Tim
The Right to Keep and Bear Arms Shall NOT be Infringed
If you take one of those suckers and tie an 18# cinder block to it....they make great boat anchors!
