Accuracy loss by disassembling ammo?

[timelinex]

So i might be changing 338 but I have alot of loaded ammo from my last rifle. Considering I only use 1 to a max of 2 thousands of neck tension, would there be any accuracy loss at all if I pulled the bullets, and started over?

I know it won't be big, since the pull marks will be small and the bullet morphs to the barrel anyways.... But I'm just wondering if anyone has done testing to see if it effects it at all (. 25 moa?). I wouldn't want to give up an ounce of accuracy at a mile +.....

I have an inertia hammer, if that makes a difference.

 

[AIAW]

Well, depending on how scientific you want to go with it... If you are talking a mile then most likely there will be some effect. If you use a kinetic (and most other) pullers then there will be slight to heavy marks. Those marks are going to change all sort of fun variables - BC, Spin Drift, Drag Curves - possibly, (but unlikely) velocity. The question is, will the effects be a problem. Only carefully pulling them down, reloading and firing them will answer this honestly.

The Hornady Cam-Lock Collet Puller is about the best you can get IMO. If adjusted correctly (and using the designated collet) it only leaves very light marks on the surface of the bullet.

I have been in your shoes before with this same problem... I would weigh the cost/benefit here. Good (Lapua) 338LM brass is very pricey... $255 for a box of 100 un-primed. Bullets, not exacly inexpensive but definitely less expensive. (You can cause runout in the brass if you use a kinetic puller also). I am assuming you are talking about 338 Lapua Magnum and not 338 Federal, Norma, etc.? The exact cartridge type wasn't listed in the original post.

In this order is how I addressed the problem:

A) Determine if brass will chamber in the "new" rifle without FL sizing.

B) Determine if brass will chamber in the "new" rifle after FL sizing (this is very important - web/base expansion could be an issue. There is not such thing as a small-base die for 338LM). If "B" is true then brass is virtually trash.

C) Begin brass/powder reclamation, with bullet integrity being a secondary goal.

D) Reload and group-test at distance with the pull-down bullets. Might luck out and have zero problems, even at a mile.

 

[timelinex]

I'll try pulling one and see how bad the marks are... Last time I had to do a couple, they really weren't that bad. I load my rounds really long and I try to use as minimal neck tension as I can. At the end of the day, I know a pulled bullet will never be exactly the same as a non pulled... But if we are talking the different between .5moa and .55moa, I can stomach that... However I don't want it to be .75 moa instead...

I'm glad you mentioned sizing. That was actually my second question. Weather I'm gonna have re full size this brass, or just neck size it back.

 

[AIAW]

I'll try pulling one and see how bad the marks are... Last time I had to do a couple, they really weren't that bad. I load my rounds really long and I try to use as minimal neck tension as I can. At the end of the day, I know a pulled bullet will never be exactly the same as a non pulled... But if we are talking the different between .5moa and .55moa, I can stomach that... However I don't want it to be .75 moa instead...

I'm glad you mentioned sizing. That was actually my second question. Weather I'm gonna have re full size this brass, or just neck size it back.

Yeah it's a big unknown that most people leave out of the process. When I owned a Windrunner M96 338LM and an AWSM 338LM I had to keep separate brass lots for each as the AWSM has a "looser" chamber than the M96. This caused the base to be too large to chamber in the M96. Normally I would keep different lots (and I do) but this is a good example of why one might not be able to (and should not) interchange brass between two same-caliber, but different, chambers.

More recently, I purchased an AX338. The brass from my AWSM 338LM will not chamber in my AX338 due to base/web expansion, even with heavy FL sizing. A buddy of mine turned a Redding Body Die down in a lathe (to remove the shoulder portion of the die) to try to get the base far enough up in there to size it (I.E. small-base die). It destroyed the brass samples with every test we performed. Simply put, you just can't try to tweak that much brass and get it to flow correctly - they are just way too thick and long.

Let's just hope that you aren't running a Savage 110BA! If so, then there is a good chance that your brass won't chamber in anything else, even with fierce full-length sizing. They are notorious for having a sloppy chamber which means your base diameters are probably way to wide to fit any other match chamber.

As far as the bullet accuracy though, I don't think you'd see a huge difference honestly if performed carefully. Actually it would be interesting if Brian Litz would do some bullet pulldown testing sometime just for the hell of it!

 

[timelinex]

Yeah it's a big unknown that most people leave out of the process. When I owned a Windrunner M96 338LM and an AWSM 338LM I had to keep separate brass lots for each as the AWSM has a "looser" chamber than the M96. This caused the base to be too large to chamber in the M96. Normally I would keep different lots (and I do) but this is a good example of why one might not be able to (and should not) interchange brass between two same-caliber, but different, chambers.

More recently, I purchased an AX338. The brass from my AWSM 338LM will not chamber in my AX338 due to base/web expansion, even with heavy FL sizing. A buddy of mine turned a Redding Body Die down in a lathe (to remove the shoulder portion of the die) to try to get the base far enough up in there to size it (I.E. small-base die). It destroyed the brass samples with every test we performed. Simply put, you just can't try to tweak that much brass and get it to flow correctly - they are just way too thick and long.

Let's just hope that you aren't running a Savage 110BA! If so, then there is a good chance that your brass won't chamber in anything else, even with fierce full-length sizing. They are notorious for having a sloppy chamber which means your base diameters are probably way to wide to fit any other match chamber.

As far as the bullet accuracy though, I don't think you'd see a huge difference honestly if performed carefully. Actually it would be interesting if Brian Litz would do some bullet pulldown testing sometime just for the hell of it!

Uh oh.... Savage 110ba it was!

So how do I know if it's unusable? If I'm able to close the bolt, but just have alot of resistance, is that unusable? Or is unusable of I can't close the bolt period

 

[AIAW]

If you can close the bolt then that is ok, but it will most likely always be difficult to close as sizing it in the future will have no effect (or even make the base even wider).

If you don't mind a heavy chambering, then it might work. I think you would have very sticky bolt lift after firing though, possibly in the extreme range.

It one of those things that you'd just have to experiment with and see if it works. Match chambers are going to be tough to fit that 110BA sized brass in though for sure! Sucks, I know...


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[mdmp5]

The Hornady Cam-Lock Collet Puller is about the best you can get IMO. If adjusted correctly (and using the designated collet) it only leaves very light marks on the surface of the bullet.

I don't agree. The collet puller is a real pain in the ass to adjust so that it grabs the bullet firmly enough to pull it. I have deformed a few bullets using this thing, and I don't have much interest in using it anymore. I think a kinetic puller is a better way to pull bullets since there is no contact, and they are easy to use.

 

[timelinex]

So I tried pulling one and it's as I thought. There are just very small pull marks, which could easily of even been imprinted from being seated. Also, the point on the bullet seems uneffected by the impact with the soft plastic of the hammer. I attached a picture for reference.

Now I will just have to wait and see if the brass fits. Otherwise, I do not see reusing the components as presenting a problem.

Here is the picture. Keep in mind that while you can see them in this high resolution photo, in reality they are very superficial. to give perspective, just look at the other imperfections that come stock, like small knicks on the jacket bullet, and they aren't any deeper.

 

[smschulz]

I may load a few blanks when I set up a new load or die.
I will usually take a small piece of 600 grit to very lightly smooth over the marks.
I normally don't resize but it wouldn't hurt.
I take the decap pin out anyway of my FL sizer so it is not that hard.
I guess the PITA factor would be determined by how many you have to do.

 

[smschulz]

I don't agree. The collet puller is a real pain in the ass to adjust so that it grabs the bullet firmly enough to pull it. I have deformed a few bullets using this thing, and I don't have much interest in using it anymore. I think a kinetic puller is a better way to pull bullets since there is no contact, and they are easy to use.

I doubt that I will EVER use my kinetic puller again now that I have the Hornady collet puller.

 

[AIAW]

I don't agree. The collet puller is a real pain in the ass to adjust so that it grabs the bullet firmly enough to pull it. I have deformed a few bullets using this thing, and I don't have much interest in using it anymore. I think a kinetic puller is a better way to pull bullets since there is no contact, and they are easy to use.

Mine leaves virtually no marks, but I have dedicated collets for the intended caliber to pull down. Adjustment is rather simple and quick as the tension is controlled with the lever while the press arm is manipulated.

Kinetics can cause brass runout, which of course is never good.


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[vh20]

Let's just hope that you aren't running a Savage 110BA! If so, then there is a good chance that your brass won't chamber in anything else, even with fierce full-length sizing. They are notorious for having a sloppy chamber which means your base diameters are probably way to wide to fit any other match chamber.

Wait...I thought they were supposed to be notorious for having excessively TIGHT chambers, with lots of complaints about stuck brass with factory loads, etc.? I have never heard of them having "sloppy" chambers, but lots of complaints of the opposite situation. What did you base this on?

 

[MitchAlsup]

Pull bullets--the scratch marks are not going to harm BC
Dump powder into container
Run primed case through neck-only die
measure powder as normal from container
dump powder back into case
Reseat bullet.

 

[mdmp5]

Mine leaves virtually no marks, but I have dedicated collets for the intended caliber to pull down. Adjustment is rather simple and quick as the tension is controlled with the lever while the press arm is manipulated.

Kinetics can cause brass runout, which of course is never good.


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Maybe I'm using it wrong. Can you tell me how you use it?

 

[timelinex]

Wait...I thought they were supposed to be notorious for having excessively TIGHT chambers, with lots of complaints about stuck brass with factory loads, etc.? I have never heard of them having "sloppy" chambers, but lots of complaints of the opposite situation. What did you base this on?

Now that you mention it, I remember hearing the same exact thing.... In fact, it was so tight that factory hsm ammo barely for without a bit of a heavy bolt.

Aiaw, do. U remember where u heard they are sloppy big chambers??

 

[AIAW]

Wait...I thought they were supposed to be notorious for having excessively TIGHT chambers, with lots of complaints about stuck brass with factory loads, etc.? I have never heard of them having "sloppy" chambers, but lots of complaints of the opposite situation. What did you base this on?

Experience from two of my friends purchasing them as first-time shooters and needing assistance with reloading is where my particular data came from. In all fairness I should probably define the term "sloppy". By that I mean it could be either direction - tight or loose. One of the rifles was tight even on factory Lapua brass (the brass will never be any smaller than that in it's life) and the other rifle had huge web expansion after firing. Both very clean chambers, just cut rather differently. They both shot well, but the brass specs were very peculiar (very much outside of nominal to say the least). These were brand-new rifles so no one had polished or otherwise "lapped" the chambers. They were purchased a few years apart, so who knows. I have never owned one, but Savage isn't along in this as I believe Sako has sort of the same thing going on with their chamberings... not too sure. Granted this doesn't make it any less accurate of a platform, it just makes brass portability rather peculiar. I've seen both Savage and Sako rifles be tack-drivers out of the box. It could go either way.

There is no sure-fire way to know really. A reamer drawing of the future chamber could help, but those are sometimes difficult to procure, depending. Even then, trying is believing

 

[AIAW]

Maybe I'm using it wrong. Can you tell me how you use it?

Nay I doubt you are using it wrong. It just takes some getting used to. The collet can impart a good bit of force on the bullet

I basically run the Hornady die down to where the tip of the bullet will enter the fully-opened collet at the midpoint of the full press stroke. The trick that I have found is to not clamp the collet lever down all the way, but to adjust the center (collet holder) down to where the collet grips the bullet right past the ogive (perhaps .2" or so) and "feel" the bullet clamp tension with the die lever. The die collet lever should roughly be at about a 45 degree angle while pulling (this never lets the die "cam-over" and gouge the bullet). You learn pretty quick how to "feel" the amount of tension needed and then it's all muscle memory.

If you only have a 30 caliber collet, you can pull larger bullets with this method as well. Also, I have found that wrapping the bullet in a single or double turn of basic clear tape (envelope or office-type standard tape) also helps on longer bullets with a rearward ogive and can reduce marring.

 

[mdmp5]

Nay I doubt you are using it wrong. It just takes some getting used to. The collet can impart a good bit of force on the bullet

I basically run the Hornady die down to where the tip of the bullet will enter the fully-opened collet at the midpoint of the full press stroke. The trick that I have found is to not clamp the collet lever down all the way, but to adjust the center (collet holder) down to where the collet grips the bullet right past the ogive (perhaps .2" or so) and "feel" the bullet clamp tension with the die lever. The die collet lever should roughly be at about a 45 degree angle while pulling (this never lets the die "cam-over" and gouge the bullet). You learn pretty quick how to "feel" the amount of tension needed and then it's all muscle memory.

If you only have a 30 caliber collet, you can pull larger bullets with this method as well. Also, I have found that wrapping the bullet in a single or double turn of basic clear tape (envelope or office-type standard tape) also helps on longer bullets with a rearward ogive and can reduce marring.

I was doing it basically like you said, using the lever to feel the bullet instead of locking it down. But the bullet kept slipping out until i pulled the lever hard enough to grab it, but that deformed the bullet. I just decided to quit using it.

 

[vh20]

AIAW - Thanks for clarifying. You are right - I take "sloppy" to mean "over-sized" wherever a machining operation is being discussed.

 

[timelinex]

Great news! (for me atleast)

The brass has no problem going in to the ax... In fact, I can even fit my loaded round in there. Which is impressive considering I load them so long that I have to single feed my 110ba. Judging by the marks on the bullet, it looks like the chamber might be just a tad shorter on the ax.

 

[timelinex]

Well, didn't work out as great as I hoped.

The brass I initially worked with was the last of my 1x fired brass, and it worked fine. However, the rest of my brass is 2x fired and I just tried doing an OCW with it and the entire ordeal was a pain in the ass! I had a rough bot close on each one and then I literally had to force the bolt open after each shot (this was not a pressure issue)

I'm hoping that it is an issue of bumping the shoulders back a bit further, rather than the brass web has expanded to far to fit.

I'm gonna try to resize and push the shoulders back incrementally further and let you guys know.

 

[timelinex]

So I guess it's more dice, all of the 2x fired brass, even with shoulders bumped far back, produce a very hard bolt lift.

Here's the screwy part... I have a smash of 1x fired NT Lapua brass that was sold at grafs. Many of the people on here bought it and said it worked great from them. Well I tried loading thESE and the same exact thing happened...

What's going on? Am I sizing something incorrectly (I'm bumping shoulders back to the same dimensions as new Lapua brass.) or is my chamber just extra tight? Alot of people from the forums bought the NT brass and Noone said they had issues.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[AIAW]

Accuracy loss by disassembling ammo?

So I guess it's more dice, all of the 2x fired brass, even with shoulders bumped far back, produce a very hard bolt lift.

Here's the screwy part... I have a smash of 1x fired NT Lapua brass that was sold at grafs. Many of the people on here bought it and said it worked great from them. Well I tried loading thESE and the same exact thing happened...

What's going on? Am I sizing something incorrectly (I'm bumping shoulders back to the same dimensions as new Lapua brass.) or is my chamber just extra tight? Alot of people from the forums bought the NT brass and Noone said they had issues.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

It most likely won't make a difference no matter how far you bump the shoulders, plus that process is pretty hard on the brass itself.

The problem is most likely the web of the case. Once the web has expanded beyond a certain point in a different chamber it is nearly impossible to get it back to an acceptable diameter due to the thickness (and lack of small-base die for 338LM). A friend and I made a small-base die out of a Redding body die, which worked, but it virtually destroyed the runout and strength of the brass.

I have been down this road before - twice with this caliber in particular. Save yourself a lot of Advil and supplies and just purchase new Lapua brass.

 

[timelinex]

It most likely won't make a difference no matter how far you bump the shoulders, plus that process is pretty hard on the brass itself.

The problem is most likely the web of the case. Once the web has expanded beyond a certain point in a different chamber it is nearly impossible to get it back to an acceptable diameter due to the thickness (and lack of small-base die for 338LM). A friend and I made a small-base die out of a Redding body die, which worked, but it virtually destroyed the runout and strength of the brass.

I have been down this road before - twice with this caliber in particular. Save yourself a lot of Advil and supplies and just purchase new Lapua brass.

That's exactly what I ended up doing..... It started becoming a big headache, so I just got new brass.

The new brass works flawlessly..... So it's all good now.

I'll just sell off the old brass and minimal harm done... It will make for good meticulously prepped brass for anyone that doesn't have as tight a chamber as I do on my ax