Anybody have one? Just how blemmed are we talking here? Buds has the blemmed carbines for $599 shipped right now, still covered under AA's factory warranty, which seems like a screaming deal if they aren't completely effed up...
- Thread starter Metalhead0483
- Start date
:Crickets: 
I think I'll snap one up and see how it looks. Worst-case scenario I'll need to have it painted. Still would only be into it for ~$800
I think I'll snap one up and see how it looks. Worst-case scenario I'll need to have it painted. Still would only be into it for ~$800
Isn't a blemish just another term for shitty quality control? Still, could be a winner.
I have a buddy that just bought a couple locally for 595. Said you'd have to go over it with a magnifying glass and might find something after a half hour of searching. Already function tested em both and said he's pleased as punch.
I have a friend that got one this week also. Neither of us could figure out what the blem is, and 300 rounds downrange wothout issue. I'd say it's a good buy.
Sounds promising. Mine should be here this week. I'll post pics once I pick it up.
Quality companies do not sell "blems"
They care too much for their reputation to put out defective products with their name on them.
They care too much for their reputation to put out defective products with their name on them.
KAC sells blem rails, I still consider them a quality company.
They aren't blems. They are exactly same as the RIS/RAS/M5 they sell to the government for $300+, that no one would pay for. So to get around contracting/US CODE, they call them blems (when there is zero defect) and sell them at half price. Its an obsolete, non FF rail that is only good for building Clones.
Notice how they only do it with the 1 or 2 rails they sell to the government and NOTHING else.
Let me know when you see a "blem" SR-15, SR-25 or URX.
Back to the thread: It's hard to pass up on a $600 AR, as long as it uses decent parts and you do a once over to make sure it was assembled/torqued correctly.
Looking forward to the day of sub $400 quality M4's and Middies.
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You can call them what you want, KAC calls them "blemished" and I don't suspect they would be lying or committing contracting fraud.
M4 RAS Seconds Knight's Armament Rail Adapter System M4 RAS Seconds [P/N: 98064S] - $150.00 : Knights Armament, ::Welcome to our Online Store
I don't care what they call them. I have taken BRAND new RAS systems for M4's and M16's out of the box, direct from Class IX and they are the SAME. Most of the time, they look shittier than then the "blems" I have bought building clones for people. KAC uses a thin anodizing and anyone who has used these systems, know they scuff up and get that battlefield pickup with a quickness.
I have also either worked directly or indirectly with DOD Contracting/Budget/Finance on the civilian side for the last 5+ years. There is no fraud going on, its a perfectly defensible possition. Its a non issue.
They contracted these non FF rail systems YEARS ago at a price. Almost every M4 wears one of these, and will for sometime (untill they recompete for a FF rail which will be the future). These were a quick and easy way to add rail space to M4/M16's that can be done at the user/-10 armorer level. Funny thing is, people still put their Peq's on them, despite them not being close to FF. Close enough for gov work. KAC made a fuck ton of these, and probally hasn't made a run in a long time. This is a way to get their obsolete and outdated rail out to the masses while still being able to fullfill the contract at the contracted price. Both sides get what they want. Contracting doesn't give two shits as it would be more headache and cost more money if they wanted start a stink.
It's not so much lying as being in a defensible possition that protects both sides, with the consumer being the real benefactor.
Lets get this back on topic.....
False
What a well thought out response with supporting facts.
Your statement is a very arrogant one.
Do you now work for KAC? Because you're asking me to take your word over a product being publicly labeled as 2nd's.
Quite frankly, 2nds is 2nds is 2nds, I don't care what your reason is...It's 2nds.
That being said, Adam Arms make a very high quality upper -- Piston system (Which is ironic in regards to your being here)...They're a step up from POF's IMO.
Again, 2nds are 2nds are 2nds...Who cares why they're 2nds...They don't deter from the primary product and shit happens.
I'd buy a 2nd if it was 20% off...Especially for just a cosmetic issue...
Fact:
"NOVESKE CHAINSAW grade rifles and components are perfect for the guy (or bad ass chick) who plans on using his rifle as a tool. We strive for perfection in every way, including setting the industry standard for cosmetic perfection. Inevitably, there are parts that do not make it past our incredibly stringent quality control for minor cosmetic blemishes. These culled parts will still deliver the same performance you can expect from a NOVESKE product. Rather than stare at boxes of parts perfectly capable of pumping more lead into Mother Earth, we have marked them with a little chainsaw, are offering these at a discounted rated. Leave your microscope at school and your camera on landscape setting; Chainsaws are not for stamp collectors."
Then there's BCM who also sells blemished....
I guess they're not "quality companies"...
You quoted from Noveske's website...... Did you parents have any children with an IQ above room tempature?
FACT, Noveske has gone to shit since John has died. They have always been overpriced, queer gear. other than the switchblock, they made nothing that someone didn't already make either cheaper, better or usualy both.
BCM is not a premium company. They are standard mil grade/spec gear, with better QC. BCM blems are usualy just scratching in the finish.......not miss machining, out of spec magwells or other shit that is typical.
Channel doesn't sell 2nds and neither does Mercedes-Benz doesn't, LMT doesn't, JP doesn't, DD Doesn't, Khales doesn't, S&B Doesn't, Nightforce doesn't, and neither does any high quality company.
Blems/2nds tell you all you need to know about a company. They value making an extra buck over quality. Normaly those products would be put into a scrap bin and a part of the cost of doing business. THIS IS ONE OF THE REASONS THE PRICES ARE TYPICALY HIGHER, along with more attention to detail from actual humans. High quality companies build their Brand. That brand has value. They do NOT water down or discount their Brand by putting out second rate or defective products. Those mis machined Lowers say Noveske on them. If someone who doesn't know about their rep.... sees the poor machining and tool marks, they will assume they are a crappy product. I would not waste my time and money on a build if the componets look liked shit. If they skimped on the areas I can easily see, what would stop them from skimping on the really important shit I can't see or measure easilily. For that reason, I do not build with Noveske componets, other than the switchblock.
Furthermore, Noveske's brand was built around their fit/finish. They built tight componets that were flawless. In a time of the accuwedge, they were a welcome addition. They also wern't priced in the stratosphere of where they are today.
So they ONLY thing Noveske had going for it other than a company like Colt, LMT or any of the other quality barrel makers was that fit/finish. Without that, what is the point of buying them (if you care about such superficial shit in the first place).
They are trying to have their cake and eat it too. Having the highest prices in the market (for comparable products) while still selling defective products tells you all you need to know.
Masked,
As far as the KAC thing, I don't need you to take my word. I don't care either way. People can take what they want from these threads, and decide for themselves.
What makes AA so great? You have independent testing or data backing that up? I am no fan of POF, but can you backup your statements with anything of substance.
Don't be so naive.
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Try again... But this time really focus...
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Since you went back and edited to include this little gem... Pay attention since this might be hard for you to track.
You just quoted someone about not including "Facts"...
I just quoted a company to provide a fact...
Now you want to talk about my intelligence for giving you an argument with evidence?
If you're going to talk about someone else's IQ then you should probably use spell check and not base all of your "facts" on your opinions since one does not equal the other...
Try again... Use your big boy voice...
1. And Noveske was overpriced while he was still alive. They have since taken a nose dive. It still serves to prove the point that they sell 2nd rate gear at ABOVE 1st rate prices.
2. Scratch in a finish is not the same as mis maching a part, not cleaning up the tool markers, or inpropper anodization.
3. High end Clothing was a bad example. They realized years ago its more profitable to sell "luxury" products to the masses than to make high end, low production clothing for the rich. The other's stilll hold true. You are still failing to understand that Miss Machining IS A FAILURE. If it's something as easy and obvious as the outside of the reciever, then how do you know it's correct on the inside, or in a not so obvious spot. It reeks of piss poor QC, which is unnacceptable for ANY firearm, much less a "premium" brand.
4. A DEMO is NOT a BLEM. You have to be a special kind of stupid to not understand the differences. Let me break this down in crayola for you. DEMO stands for Demonstration. Products are DEMONSTRATED to potential customers (wholesalers/retailers/OEM/retail customers/Military/LEO) so they can try the product out and see if they want to buy it. Beacuse they have been handled or Used to DEMONSTRATE the product, they are usualy sold at a discount. The MANUFACTURE does not typicaly sell the demo's, they are sold by retailers or or large wholesalers. It allows the customer to actualy handle the product and test it, without diminishing the value of a new boxed item. A "BLEM" is a Blemished product, or 2nd. It is something that failed durring the manufacuring process to meet the acceptable standards set forth by the company.
5. YES, quality producers toss product ALL THE TIME. It is a part of the manufacturing process. They are a cost that is factored into everything. It is a cost of doing business and one of the reasons High end companies cost more. Two of those factors are both more trained QC staff to find those problems before they leave the factory, and the lost cost from removing subpar products from the shipping dock. It is a bit less comon with CNC, but still happens all the time. Barrels, uppers, lowers, Rails, small parts, triggers ect.....No one makes 100% perfect product every time. There are acceptable tollerance level's for each product, and if it falls outside of those parameters, it gets either reworked to acceptable or scrap bin'ed. This is one of the main things that sets companies apart. A part that Colt or LMT would throw into the trash bin, Bushy, DPMS or Oly Arms is more than happy to throw into a gun that will ship out the door. This is a large reason why there is a much higher probability that the same Colt or LMT will work flawless out of the box and those shitty AR companies will choke. Its a calcualtedcost that has dozens of factors that I won't confuse you with....as it will go right over your head with the rest of the truth.
6. You fail that John's death has nothing to do with Noveske's pricing. Yes they were expensive before he died, but they were also cheaper earlier in their company's history. Noveske got their start at barrel makers, so yes barrel making is a pretty fucking valid point. Back then, there were only a handfull of companies making high quality barrels with AR15 reciever extensions already on them. Douglas, Lija, Krieger, Wilson, ect..........did not typicaly make them. You had to have a secondary place chamber and fit the extension. Noveske made a higher quality barrel and a good price ($250-350) for a SS threaded SPR profile in mid/rifle length. They were much more reasonable back then, and cheaper than many of the others.
7. I don't care about scratches. They are tools. The only reason to buy a noveske is for a better fit and finish....PERIOD. Without that, what is the point. This is why they are gear queer guns. Overpriced, no perfomance advantage, subpar to other comparable priced products with a pretty iron cross. So if the only reason to spend the premium is to have a pretty gun, then why would ANYONE spend almost the same money for a shitty looking one. Or one that has such obvious machining flaws, that it brings the entire rifles manufactuing, assembly and QC into question. This is not indicitive of a premium brand.
8. Back to 5. "waste" is a cost of doing business. If you want to reduce waste, then pay attention and do it right the first time. There is a convergence of cost and quality that is optimal for a company. At some point on that curve, it is cheaper/smarter to just accept the "waste" as a cost of business and keep out turning more product.
9. Miss machined parts are NOT cosmetic. Poor anodization is NOT cosmetic. Aluminum is a soft metal and type 3 anodization is needed to protect the componets. You need me to explain to you what happens when STEEL parts interact with Bare/non coated aluminium parts? Cosmetic is a scratch in the finish or a using the wrong color cerakote or using the wrong color dye durring the anodization process.
I'm on a tablet and if your best arguement is my need to "spell check" than you just need to Read more and post less.
One more little tidbit.... Many of those miss machined and fucked up Noveske Lowers WERE NOT SOLD AS CHAINSAWS.
They were sold as normal products. That was one of the problems. The fact that they sell manufacturing failures in the real comedy.
They were sold as normal products. That was one of the problems. The fact that they sell manufacturing failures in the real comedy.
It's almost too easy...
Care to back that up with an actual FACT other than because you say so? Chainsaw lowers are not mis-machined, they're cosmetic blemishes that you want to try and turn into mis-machined parts to fit your argument. You'll have to forgive some of us for not believing every opinion you toss out as fact...
Oh don't worry -- Cobracutter is essentially an armorer and knows the industry so well the rest of us are instantaneously wrong!
Only his beloved KAC is perfect! (Even though they sell blemished product like everyone else)
Where the frack do you get your koolaid CC? I'm dying to try that shit!
First. Stop posting responses inside my quotes. It makes it almost impossible to retort the braindead fucking non logic coming out of your sewer. On second though, I shouldn't expect too much so do what ever you want.
Since you CLEARLY are inncapable of actualy reading what was written and seem to just want to make statements that do not prove anything....
2nd rate or Blems ARE DEFECTIVE. Why the fuck do you think they are 2nd's or blems. Something failed durring the manufacturing process be it materials, machining, assembly, fitting, finish,ect. They are outside of the companies accectable tollerance so they are marked as such. Futhermore, there are Different degree. As I said twice already a small scratch in a finish is not the same as gouges or miss machining a part.
Since Words are difficult for you, here are some pictures:
Noveske Afghan arrived...Not sure what to think. - AR15.COM
1. Where did I say Chainsaws are more money than non Chainsaws? Where Did I say Noveske's QC was Poor before John died? Let me break this down for your little mind...... Noveske's prices used to be much cheaper.......over time, the prices rose to tier1 prices and above..... AFTER this time... John Died. Now that John died.........QC has gone to shit. The idiots running the company would rather make hammers and spoons than guns/parts. They care about pushing product out that sells based on its OLD REPUTATION at its CURRENT HIGH PRICE. This is unnacceptable and if you can't understand this, then nothing I say will help you.
2. Yes thank you for regurgitating what I said about Demos. Yet you still fail to understand the FUNDEMENTAL difference between a Demo and Blem. A DEMO is and INTENTIONAL "change" or use to the product for the benefit of the customer and the company. A BLEM, is a FAILURE of manufacturing. Scope companies don't send out Defective products to DEMO..... as you can imagine it would not have the desired effect. "Hey look at this defective/blem/2nd" $3500 optic. Now would you like to buy one in the box over here?" The MANUFACTURE typical does not sell the blems. They typicaly DO NOT PRODUCE THE BLEM's to the product. They are done at the wholesale/retail level. Manufactures will allow so many products to be used as Demos for shows/sales pitches FOR THE MANUFACTURE and they are a cost of doing business, and probally tax deductable as a business expense. What they do with them afterwards, I have no idea. Neither do you.
3. Everything else you have said is dribble. Makes zero sense and you are just making wild ass statements trying to grasp for straws. Words have meaning and they can't mean whatever you want them to beacuse it suits your point of view.
And since everything needs to be said to you 5 times to sink in:
Noveske Afghan arrived...Not sure what to think. - AR15.COM
Noveske Afghan arrived...Not sure what to think. - AR15.COM
Noveske Afghan arrived...Not sure what to think. - AR15.COM
Noveske Afghan arrived...Not sure what to think. - AR15.COM
Noveske Afghan arrived...Not sure what to think. - AR15.COM
This has become an absolute waste of my time, so this is my last post in this thread. Enjoy your overpriced shit... The economy needs all the help it can get.
Since you CLEARLY are inncapable of actualy reading what was written and seem to just want to make statements that do not prove anything....
2nd rate or Blems ARE DEFECTIVE. Why the fuck do you think they are 2nd's or blems. Something failed durring the manufacturing process be it materials, machining, assembly, fitting, finish,ect. They are outside of the companies accectable tollerance so they are marked as such. Futhermore, there are Different degree. As I said twice already a small scratch in a finish is not the same as gouges or miss machining a part.
Since Words are difficult for you, here are some pictures:
Noveske Afghan arrived...Not sure what to think. - AR15.COM
1. Where did I say Chainsaws are more money than non Chainsaws? Where Did I say Noveske's QC was Poor before John died? Let me break this down for your little mind...... Noveske's prices used to be much cheaper.......over time, the prices rose to tier1 prices and above..... AFTER this time... John Died. Now that John died.........QC has gone to shit. The idiots running the company would rather make hammers and spoons than guns/parts. They care about pushing product out that sells based on its OLD REPUTATION at its CURRENT HIGH PRICE. This is unnacceptable and if you can't understand this, then nothing I say will help you.
2. Yes thank you for regurgitating what I said about Demos. Yet you still fail to understand the FUNDEMENTAL difference between a Demo and Blem. A DEMO is and INTENTIONAL "change" or use to the product for the benefit of the customer and the company. A BLEM, is a FAILURE of manufacturing. Scope companies don't send out Defective products to DEMO..... as you can imagine it would not have the desired effect. "Hey look at this defective/blem/2nd" $3500 optic. Now would you like to buy one in the box over here?" The MANUFACTURE typical does not sell the blems. They typicaly DO NOT PRODUCE THE BLEM's to the product. They are done at the wholesale/retail level. Manufactures will allow so many products to be used as Demos for shows/sales pitches FOR THE MANUFACTURE and they are a cost of doing business, and probally tax deductable as a business expense. What they do with them afterwards, I have no idea. Neither do you.
3. Everything else you have said is dribble. Makes zero sense and you are just making wild ass statements trying to grasp for straws. Words have meaning and they can't mean whatever you want them to beacuse it suits your point of view.
And since everything needs to be said to you 5 times to sink in:
Noveske Afghan arrived...Not sure what to think. - AR15.COM
Noveske Afghan arrived...Not sure what to think. - AR15.COM
Noveske Afghan arrived...Not sure what to think. - AR15.COM
Noveske Afghan arrived...Not sure what to think. - AR15.COM
Noveske Afghan arrived...Not sure what to think. - AR15.COM
This has become an absolute waste of my time, so this is my last post in this thread. Enjoy your overpriced shit... The economy needs all the help it can get.
First of all, I really don't give a shit about Noveske but, you're incredibly wrong about blemished product.
Blemished cars are actually sold on the secondary market, mostly to employees for next to nothing but, they are sold...In fact, Lamborghini and Ferrari engage in this practice regularly afaik...Why? Replacing the damaged part, quite frankly, just costs too damned much, especially if it's the interior. Do they publicize this? No...But, it's a fairly common practice.
I bought my GSXR1300R as a blem -- The outside of the engine hadn't been cast correctly, it was their final run...Bought it direct through a dealer for about $5k less...You never actually ever saw the engine and it didn't effect performance...
That doesn't mean I think less of Suzuki...In fact, that price difference gave me the opportunity to own a 'busa...So, I'm very thankful.
The garment industry does this constantly...Textile market...Shit, they even sell secondary wood at Home Depot/Lowes now.
If you're going to snub your nose at a blemish that does not effect performance...That's your own issue, not ours -- It still performs as it should or they wouldn't sell that upper in the first place.
Also, who gives 2 shits about anodizing anymore? We all paint our own shit anyway...Saves me the $300 I'm going to spend Cerakoting the whole damned AR anyway...So, no shits were given.
Again, Adam Arms produces a quality product...They wouldn't sell that product, especially the functioning part of a rifle unless it functioned 100% so, I don't know what bus you decided to step in front of but, these blemishes don't effect performance or our ideal of the company...
Blemishes make a company look "bad"??? Really? -- If anything they give a larger audience the opportunity to purchase their product even though it's scratched...Which means more people are happy...
Again, Kool-Aid man, direct me to it!
There has been a lot of information/opinions presented in this thread, most of which are well worth taking a moment to consider. One thing I believe, is the selling of these blems (and they do seem like a good deal-as long as it is cosmetic and doesn't effect function) will have the effect of lowering the resale value of their "first run" products. Once a rifle has been taken to the range a few times and fired a few 100 times, I imagine it would be considered a "blem" if being inspected for new. It really doesn't matter what the old price was, they [AA] have just established a new, lower, price point for their used product.
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A blem is a blemish. Quality companies in all walks of life sell them. In my line of work I've bought or seen blend purchased from numerous companies (Michelin, Optima, Exide, Snap-on, etc), a lot of times ya just gotta ask. They are products that pass safety and manufacturing specs, just not the visual.
From what I see, the sale of blems by the companies above hasn't diminished the price points at all though.
From what I see, the sale of blems by the companies above hasn't diminished the price points at all though.
I have no problem with any company selling blems, if it's part of their business model the free market will decide right or wrong. How exactly would you be able to tell a blem from a 1st run, after the 1st run was used, not hard, but not a safe queen either? If it were just cosmetic, then the blem would have a zero round count down the tube etc.. For me the blem would be a better piece (as long as it was just cosmetic), therefore; the new blem becomes the de-facto starting price point. In fact a used first run, with a scratch (or blem as it is being called) would be worth less than a new blem, of course this is just my opinion. For some buyers, I guess as long as they are told "I paid top dollar for this first run gun, yea it has a little scratch on it, but that happened when I was shooting 1/2MOA at 1000 yards", and all would be good with the value. I'm glad I'm not that buyer.
Blems are not necessarily always available. In fact, they're supposed to be a rarity. That's why I wouldn't personally consider that to be the starting price point.
I love how your maturity level drops to non-existent when you simply can't force your bullshit opinion. You want to now go into varying degrees of what is and isn't acceptable and all based upon your opinion, not facts, yet you think everyone elses opinion without fact is irrelevant. You're a hypocrite and a bad salesman. You say blemishes are "defects" and poor QC and yet when I point out that Noveske sold chainsaws even before John died you think that it's irrelevant and that QC didn't turn to shit until afterward by your own words above. Nothing you say is making sense and you can't validate any of it which is why you've now gone to just throwing out whatever link you can, stomping your feet like a fuckin 3 year old, and telling everyone you're taking your shit and going home... but I'll bet you end up coming back because you can't stand it when the other kids don't believe whatever you say or think you're the coolest kid in the room. I'm probably one of the most hated and disliked here on the Hide. There are numerous gentleman who LOVE to tell me when I'm wrong and revel in the opportunity... yet notice no one is running to your defense? Maybe you should ask yourself every once in a while if no one is jumping on your bandwagon against a troll like me is it possibly because you're wrong?
First run rifles aren't always available, but if you check with Bud's Gun Shop, they seem to have a large supply of blems available now.
If only I had a bunch of money just laying around not earmarked for anything.... :-/
