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Almost a Kaboom

akabaron

akabaron

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Aug 16, 2007
102
0
59
Tempe AZ
#1
Went out to the range today to sight in the scope on the new rings. Shooting Rem SPV W/ AAD762 Can. Loaded up some 147s in .308 with 45g BLC2
@ 2.800 COL Shot fine got it on target then switched to some 168 A Max bullets with 45.4g Of BLC2 (range is 44-47g) in Mil brass CCI LRP same COL
Pulled the trigger and all hell broke loose. BLast hit me in the face, Checked the bolt would not open, All signs of a double charge but pretty impossible to double charge a .308 with BLC2 as most of it would spill over the loader. Got it home finally managed to get the bolt open and the case was basically welded to the bolt!
1000198.jpg


1000203y.jpg

Brass flowed into the bolt and was unable to get it loose, tried to push it to the sides, turn it etc no effect, finally had to use some pliers and kept twisting it back and forth for about 10 min until it finally gave away. Case looks like a belted magnum. Primer pocket is 2 times the size,
1000203y.jpg


1000205.jpg


1000206.jpg


1000207q.jpg


Ended up pulling the 39 other bullets and checked the weight which were 45.4g I did notice 2 that read a little high at 46.2g that I am really wondering about but looking at this case looks like it was pistol powder or severely over charged! Cant figure it out. Using Dillon 550 have been loading on it for 15yrs never had a problem. No way was powder changed. Also double checked the bullet weight which read right at 168.4 on the Dillon Digital. Fired 60rds prior to this one out of the same powder on the machine. Other than the obvious any ideas?
 
#5
Re: Almost a Kaboom

That your unloaded rounds didn't show any light charges doesn't point to bridging, which would have directly explained the problem. The two heavy charges, however, cast doubt on the consistency of the powder measure. I would look carefully at that piece and its actuation. Was it cycled several times to establish its consistency after the setting had been changed and before actually loading rounds?
 
#7
Re: Almost a Kaboom

BL-C2 is a ball powder, highly unlikely that it would bridge in the powder thrower. Doubt the prior round was a squib, if it was, the barrel would be blown out ala' Elmer Fudd. Clearly, you've got problems with severe overpressure, but even if you went a couple (1-2) grains over your usual charge, thats only 2-4% over...unlikely that it would cause such a dramatic overpressure. Have you shot the 168 with this charge (45.4gn) before? I ask this since you stated that you used this same charge for the 147's. Not only are the bullets different in weight, but the 168 probably has a longer bearing surface/length than the 147's. Glad the case held for you.
 
#10
Re: Almost a Kaboom

I know the round came out and so did the previous one as I saw the hit. I used the same load for the 168s due to the reloading data and even in mil cases should have been very mild 45g in BLC2 is around the middle as 47g is max. I havent used this load with 168s before and this was the starting load. I figured even with the heavier bullet I had plenty of room for adjustment. This is the only powder I use for .223s and .308 most due to the case volume it takes up and could see an overcharge or so I thought. I also use it because it works very well in the Dillon powder measure. The only thing I did different was I used one shot for lubing the case and went directly to priming and loading them then tumbled the loaded rounds for about an hour. I have tumbled loaded rounds many times before so I dont think this is a problem. Normally I usually size them, re/tumble them, then load them. Headspace should be fine, the gun only has about 300rds down the tube and all other fired brass will still fit into a case gauge without resizing even though I do any way. The other bad thing is when pulling the bullets with a kinetic puller it pretty much destroys the bullets as the plastic tip either gets bent or broken off so I guess they will be trashed. I got a couple lbs of 4895 I picked up the other day probably start using that & see. Still have about 15lbs of BLC2 been using it for years and never had a problem. Any of you had any problems with a over charge from a Dillon 550 that could cause this? I have shot 48g with 150s out of my M1A pretty stout but no cratering or bolt face marks. To me it all points to pistol powder which I do have 231 and looks identical. Any one here shoot 168s or heavier using BLC2? am curious what loads you use.
 
#11
Re: Almost a Kaboom

Wow! Glad you okay. Bet you had some laundry to do when you got back home!
laugh.gif


I have noticed with the 147gr CBC pull downs I got a Pats Reloading several years ago that they foul my rifle pretty bad. I'm talking visible fouling from the muzzle after 15-30 rounds.

How bad is the fouling in your rifle? Excessive fouling can cause increased chamber pressures.

Like someone said before have your head space checked prior to firing it again.

Did that round chamber okay, or did you have to force the bolt closed?

Terry
 
#13
Re: Almost a Kaboom

I dont think tumbling has enough force to push a bullet into the case, plus he would have seen it when loading.

Now it is possible that the bullet got pushed into the case while he was cycling the bolt. That can cause a KB.
 
#14
Re: Almost a Kaboom

Can't help thinking a case full of W231 would have been a much geater disaster. It's possible you had a flaw in the structure of the case head as all that super heated gas cutting around the primer pocket is what enlarged it so. Shooter65 had a case head explode on him a few weeks ago, you might find the thoughts offered to him on that thread helpful.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1033981&page=1

Do you crimp your cases? If not, it is possible your bullet may have pushed deeper into the case.

I definitely want to understand what happened here. Glad you weren't hurt.
 
#15
Re: Almost a Kaboom

Post loading tumbling is a known problem with older powder!

the powder breaks down into smaller pieces increasing the surface area and burn rate.

some ball powders are coated to stablise the burn rate tumbling would curcumvent this increasing pressures.

Please clean your brass empty!

if you need to clean after loading use a rag and hand buff them.


and here is a good read while we are thinking about it,
http://www.6mmbr.com/eyeprotection.html

 
#16
Re: Almost a Kaboom

There have been threads arguing back and forth over the risks, or lack thereof, of tumbling loaded rounds. This particular disaster has been posited as a possibility of doing so.

I clean the lube off by hand and will continue to do so.
 
#19
Re: Almost a Kaboom

MY WW231, from at least four batches over 30 years, has NEVER looked like Ball-C(2). Or like the last of my Dad's Ball C for that matter.

That's also from about six batches of Ball-C(2). It's darker, rounder, and smaller than the more silvery and flattened WW-231 (when looking at the disk diameter, not the thickness).

You should be able to tell for sure.

A good scientist might be able to rule out one powder or the other (though not necessarily "prove" what it was) through differences in the residues in the case. Call that DiMaio guy in Texas who was a coroner there in the 1980s.

This is too extreme to be a case mouth/chamber edge crimpthebulletin pressure thing. Those usually leave some marks at the case mouth anyway.

Tumbling must be really extreme to break down the hard plastic that powder is. If not, we couldn't ship the stuff in trucks, either as powder or loaded ammo. Can you say "days of bouncing down the highway"?
 
#20
Re: Almost a Kaboom

I use this powder for most of my many rifles. BLC-2 is a great powder and I tumble after loading and have not had any issues such as this.

HOWEVER

It's temp sensitive. VERY temp sensitive. So here's something I didn't see asked. I wasn't aware of the term before, but I know the effect well... <span style="font-weight: bold">did you "let it cook"? in the chamber?</span>

I loaded a lot of 155's and 168's in the 46.7-47.0 grain range and they do fine in a cold barrel and cool days. On an 85F day the 155 Amax and 47grains is VERY hot.

I have gotten the same VERY HOT signs from 45.2gr of powder when I let the 15th round sit in the chamber for a minute or two and then took the shot, luckily it was on a cold day of about 15F and I just noticed a harder recoil and flattened primer. I didn't know about temp sensitivity and chalked it up to a mistake when I was throwing charges. I realized what was happening when I used trickled charge loads that I was 100% sure of and I said to my dad "I had the darndest thing happen today" when he told me about the temp sensitivity of some powders.

SO, long explanation short... <span style="font-weight: bold">Was the rifle warm/hot and you let that round sit in the chamber for a little while and soak up barrel heat?</span> A "warm to touch" barrel is over 100F, a hot to touch barrel is probably more like 150F
 
#22
Re: Almost a Kaboom

The only time I actually witnessed a presure excursion resulting in firearm damage, the load was normal in all aspects but one. The case had a high probability of being significantly longer than trim length. These things are essentially impossible to confirm afterward due to distortion, but the plausible explanation was that the end of the case neck entered the leade, and the resulting overpressure spike unleashed hell.

BTW, I cringe at the thought of tumbling anything containing propellent. Images of deterrent coatings being eroded color my imagination. Basically, I use water soluble lube and wipe completed rounds down with a cloth soaked in rubbing alky. Tumbling takes several times as long.

Greg
 
#23
Re: Almost a Kaboom

I really dont think it was pistol powder but see no other explanation for it considering it being a lighter load. The bullets were loaded singly, all loaded easy, brass was once fired, trimmed and prepped. Yes it was probably 102 deg out there and I am aware of temp sensitivity of BLC2 and it probably sat in the chamber for about 10 sec. I did measure the bullets after thinking maybe I got an odd one but they were right at .308 As far as tumbling loaded ammo that debate has been going on for years. Dont think it was a brass problem as I inspected the damaged case and no rupture is seen and this is some really thick brass which I generally get around 15 loadings before pitching them. Have never had a loose primer or failed case. I am going to pitch the powder that was in the loader and go back to 147s for a while until the pucker factor is gone and work up from there. Will have to double check the powder dispenser and make sure its working correctly. Dam I hate loading singly, weighing each charge which I would do if I was shooting 1K or competing. About 12 years ago I was loading for a 7 mag and accidently loaded pistol powder in it resulting in the same outcome on a Winchester Ranger, gun didnt blow up but action locked and had to kick open the bolt which broke off the extractor and hammer out the case with a metal rod. Since then I keep powders far far away except from what I am using at the time. They are stored in different buildings for just that reason. If your ever out at Rio Salado Shooting range and see someone shooting with a crash helmet on come by and say hello!
 
#24
Re: Almost a Kaboom

I had a very simular thing happen to me years ago while shooting a couple of 220 Swifts. One was a custom while the other was mostly factory. I was taking turns shooting them when I inadvertingly grabbed a load intended for the custom and shot it in the factory gun.(I had worked up loads for each rifle on the bench)

At the shot, I felt pressure and particles hit my face, there was smoke coming from the action and while I dont quite remember the speed, the chronograph showed something like 800 fps faster than what that load normally averages in it's intended rifle(4100fps)I beleive it was just under 5000ps. The bolt was frozen closed and could not open it. I finally took it to my smith and he managed to get it open. The case looked just like the one by the OP, a belt was formed and the primer pocket was 2X the normal size. He wound up going over the bolt and action, magnafluxing it in which things were ok. That was the last shot fired while it was a 220 swift, it's now a 6mmx284.

I really cant figure what happened either but my best guess was that the case may have been to long and I crimped the bulletin while caming the bolt, with the load being max and being fired in a different rifle, the pressure was very excessive. Sine them I make it a habit shot to have more that one rifle/cartridges chambered the same on the bench at the same time.
 
#25
Re: Almost a Kaboom

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DEATH</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The only thing I did different was I used one shot for lubing the case and went directly to priming and loading them then tumbled the loaded rounds for about an hour. I have tumbled loaded rounds many times before so I dont think this is a problem. </div></div>

You should not tumble loaded rounds! This will break down the powder structure thus changing your burn rates. I would suggest wiping the lube off with a towel instead of tumbling.

This could be the reason for your KABOOM!

Terry
 
#26
Re: Almost a Kaboom

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Headspace should be fine, the gun only has about 300rds down the tube...</div></div>

I think he meant to ensure the rifle survived the incident, not as a cause.

No one has mentioned it, so I'll throw it out. Is it possible something got inside the case before you charged it? That's essentially the same as adding weight to the bullet. Just a thought.

AFA tumblimg loaded rounds, the argument has been around for years. I contacted several powder manufacturers several years ago and asked. All answers were virtually the same. "Tumbling has no effect on powder. We tumble loaded ammo far beyond anything the home loader can do." However, they all recommded not. IMO, static would be the greatest danger, and even then, unless a primer were seated upside down, risk would be minimal.
 
#27
Re: Almost a Kaboom

1000213.jpg


Loaded 168 next to 147 ball

1000214d.jpg


1000215.jpg


60 cases of fired ball, loaded from same powder in reloader, same primers, same once fired prepped cases, all uncrimped as with the 168
primers show absolutely no pressure signs and is a really mild load.
have run same bullets, cases,primers up to 48g with no ejector marks.
Yea probably get the head space checked. Impossible for foreign object to have gotten in there. I quit trying to figure it out too many variables in there so will start from scratch and probably start at the very bottom when trying the 168s next time. Shooting glasses have saved my ass more times than once!
 
#28
Re: Almost a Kaboom

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The case had a high probability of being significantly longer than trim length. These things are essentially impossible to confirm afterward due to distortion, but the plausible explanation was that the end of the case neck entered the leade, and the resulting overpressure spike unleashed hell.


Greg </div></div>
+1
This is the 1st thing that came to mind for me.
It would make sense
 
#29
Re: Almost a Kaboom

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BadBot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Post loading tumbling is a known problem with older powder!

the powder breaks down into smaller pieces increasing the surface area and burn rate.

some ball powders are coated to stablise the burn rate tumbling would curcumvent this increasing pressures.

Please clean your brass empty!

if you need to clean after loading use a rag and hand buff them.


and here is a good read while we are thinking about it,
http://www.6mmbr.com/eyeprotection.html

</div></div>

I will not be post loading tumbling to stay away from this possibility. this does make sense, greater surface area to ignite
 
#30
Re: Almost a Kaboom

None of this post-loading tumbling bull addresses the fact that the other rounds ALL fired normally.

The caseneck pinch theory fits the facts best.

Next best is some WW231 being at the bottom of the powder measure when the batch was started. That's the only way I can see ONE round being bad. However, the way most of us reload, that powder would have been:

a. thrown out when measuring the charges during setup; and

b. noticeably different in the pan when measured.

Unless, of course, there was enough in there to survive the setup process, or the OP set the measure to a known point and started right up without double-checking the charge weight.

Since WW231 is significantly less dense than BLC(2), there are some other problems with this theory's sequence of events...unless there are two batches of ammo and the second one has much heavier charges of BLC(2) caused by setting the measure to weight when it was throwing WW231.

I find either theory possible even given the OP's stated precautions about not having more than one powder on the bench at a time.
 
#32
Re: Almost a Kaboom

WOW Death, I'm glad you didn't live up to your SH id...

1. Get that rifle checked by a good smith- there're many things that could've been damaged by the kb.

2. Like airplane crashes, often it's a multitude of factors that cause an accident like this. Other than the obvious bullet stuck in the barrel or using pistol powder, it most likely was caused by high temperature in combo with a long case and possible case flaw.

Glad you still have all your fingers.
 
#33
Re: Almost a Kaboom

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tomme boy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Detonation. Too little of a charge can and will do the same thing. It explodes instead of burns. </div></div>

Most likely not. S.E.E only takes about 5-8 grains of total charge to go high order and split something like a Rem 700 action. 45 grains going high order would kill him instantly.

Also, 45 grains does a pretty good job filling up the case, you see SEE issues with 1/3 of the case volume full, that charge will around 80% of the case with BLC-2.

Finally, BLC-2 even in lower quantities is less likely for an SEE detonation issue at 15 grains than say something like Unique because of the high mass content of Nitroglycerin in Unique. Not saying it can't happen, because it can, but 15 grains won't do it. I've shot stuff at those loads messing with subsonic ammo and not had any issue or hang fires.

My money is on the long case/pinched neck theory. This would seem to be supported by measuring the length of the other fired cases in the bunch and the unfired cases he's pulling bullets from to compare them against trim length. If they're all over Trim and approaching "too long" then there's a good chance that this one was actually over limit and pinched off the bullet from releasing properly.

 
#34
Re: Almost a Kaboom

Could not have had pistol powder in the tube, all calibers I load have their own designated tool head w/ powder dump. Pistol powder only goes in pistol tool heads, Dont have to worry about dumping powder unless I change brands as you can notice on the left of the bench shows different tool heads
1000141edited1.jpg
Will have to measure fired rounds vs pulled loaded rounds although were different bullet weights
 
#35
Re: Almost a Kaboom

According to QL which is an estimate, you 168 load generates:

57297 PSI Peak Pressure.

Trim length I think.

That's assuming a H20 capacity of 55gr water in the case.

If its LC brass its pretty damn stout.

Hrmmmm........

 
#36
Re: Almost a Kaboom

Pix look very familiar. Same thing happened to me except with a .223. The case had to be machined out of the bolt. My problem was excessive carbon in the throat. That's why I never pay attention to those who say you never need to clean your barrel or you'll ruin it.
 
#38
Re: Almost a Kaboom

I'm satisfied with the OP's description of the powder situation.

New theory:

Heavy bullet mixed in with the 168s. A "fatter" on should not have chambered, given the appearance of the case neck on the pre-mauling pix.

I'm also not seeing any remaining traces of caseneck pinch. The ones I helped reload in my teenage years DID show some rounding at the mouth after firing.

Heck, even nice and short USGI cases crimped into M80 Ball bullets show a trace of inward curve at the mouth--more noticeably as an edge inside the neck that resizing and expanding irons out. If there were a pinch, I'd expect to see traces of it. That evidence, however, is now destroyed.
 
#39
Re: Almost a Kaboom

NEVER EVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES TUMBLE A LOADED ROUND!!!!!!
I can assure you that that is why things happened.. I have made some experiments with this so i know that it is like having a grenade next to your face.it grinds the powder down to "dust" and it becomes extremely fast.I have tested this a couple of years ago on three different mausers and all three exploded. You are a very lucky man that wasnt seriously hurt or even killed!!
 
#40
Re: Almost a Kaboom

Alright I think I finally found the reason, Called Sierra today and they say data for 168 is 42.7-44.5 in commercial case. So compared to my load (Hodgdon website says 44-47) is way over max pressure. Told him and he checked their website and could not believe the specs they were giving. He said he has seen some very aggressive data from them. So giving using Military Cases should have dropped an additional grain. May work in some guns but not in my gun. Too bad I didnt chrono that load, maybe it hit 3300fps LOL Well you learn from your mistakes, at least I didnt loose any digits in the process
 
#41
Re: Almost a Kaboom

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grim reaper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">NEVER EVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES TUMBLE A LOADED ROUND!!!!!!
I can assure you that that is why things happened.. I have made some experiments with this so i know that it is like having a grenade next to your face.it grinds the powder down to "dust" and it becomes extremely fast.I have tested this a couple of years ago on three different mausers and all three exploded. You are a very lucky man that wasnt seriously hurt or even killed!! </div></div>

Three times, huh? I wonder how the ammo manufacturers get away with tumbling loaded rounds.
 
#42
Re: Almost a Kaboom

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grim reaper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">NEVER EVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES TUMBLE A LOADED ROUND!!!!!!
I can assure you that that is why things happened.. I have made some experiments with this so i know that it is like having a grenade next to your face.it grinds the powder down to "dust" and it becomes extremely fast.I have tested this a couple of years ago on three different mausers and all three exploded. You are a very lucky man that wasnt seriously hurt or even killed!! </div></div>

Dude, what the fuck are you talking about? what do you think happens to the ammo or powder when its on a UPS truck being shipped to you? not to mention that every major ammo manufacturer tumbles after lodaing!
 
#43
Re: Almost a Kaboom

Let's assume your water capacity of your brass is 54.0gr for arguments sake.

According to QL (which is just an estimate) 54.4 of BLC2 gets you right up to 60k PSI.

That might be your answer right there.

What brass were you using?

Did you call Hogdon btw and see what they had to say or Hornady?

 
#44
Re: Almost a Kaboom

No, havent called Hornady. Have dealt with Sierra for a long time and are some pretty cool people and have never steered me wrong. The brass is OFV74 which is crap ammo but the brass is top notch and can go pretty much unlimited loadings and have never had one fail. Last week loaded up 200 rds of my regular 147s same load no problems. Gonna pick up some MatchKings and drop the charge to their specs and go from there. Have heard of the myth of tumbling loaded ammo and dont think thats a problem since have been doing it for years.
 
#45
Re: Almost a Kaboom

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DEATH</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, havent called Hornady. Have dealt with Sierra for a long time and are some pretty cool people and have never steered me wrong. The brass is OFV74 which is crap ammo but the brass is top notch and can go pretty much unlimited loadings and have never had one fail. Last week loaded up 200 rds of my regular 147s same load no problems. Gonna pick up some MatchKings and drop the charge to their specs and go from there. Have heard of the myth of tumbling loaded ammo and dont think thats a problem since have been doing it for years. </div></div>

I've started tumbling loaded rounds now as well, I doubt that's an issue.

I think you're probably on to something with an over length neck as someone mentioned, anyways, glad you weren't hurt and the rifle is going to be OK.

 
#46
Re: Almost a Kaboom

Uh, these fifty-whatever charge weights of BL-C(2) are in the .30-06 range.

45.4 was the originally-reported charge. Are we giving out ErrorNet typos by chance?

My next follow-up question is:

Were all charges thrown, or were they weighed?

If weighed, were they weighed one at a time and the bullet seated immediately, or after putting preliminary charges in a loading block full of cases?

If weighed, were they weighed on a balance beam or on a digital scale?

I just happen to be a bit skeptical about one case failing so dramatically, when the other fired cases don't show so much as a trace of ejector smear.

My votes are: 1. heavy bullet mixed in; or 2. some mistake in overcharging that individual case; or 3. some serious softness defect in that piece of brass (HOW in the middle of a bunch of otherwise identical brass previously fired *is* a problem).

Think Occam's Razor, *with* all appropriate cautions.

 
#47
Re: Almost a Kaboom

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DEATH</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Alright I think I finally found the reason, Called Sierra today and they say data for 168 is 42.7-44.5 in commercial case. So compared to my load (Hodgdon website says 44-47) is way over max pressure. Told him and he checked their website and could not believe the specs they were giving. He said he has seen some very aggressive data from them. So giving using Military Cases should have dropped an additional grain. May work in some guns but not in my gun. Too bad I didnt chrono that load, maybe it hit 3300fps LOL Well you learn from your mistakes, at least I didnt loose any digits in the process </div></div>

Your load was 45.4, right? That's 0.9 grains over Sierra's usually quite conservative maximum, AND in military cases. For grins and giggles, give us the H2O capacity of your fired cases from that load as fired in your rifle, THEN the H2O capacity of something from, say, Winchester also fired in your rifle, just so we can see the difference.

I'm still bugged that no other cases showed "pressure signs".

Your barrel and chamber use Sierra data, I guess.
 
#48
Re: Almost a Kaboom

Previous rounds fired were 147s, The first 168 shot was the issue. Loaded on progressive press, after powder went straight to bullet seating. The scale was a Dillon Digital Scale. How you get H20 Capacity? How do you measure and what numbers do you compare to?
 
#49
Re: Almost a Kaboom

H20? How I do it is:

Weigh empty case with primer in it. Fill with water (using a dropper is better) up to the neck. Weigh again and subtract weight of case from the total. Resultant figure is H20.

Better to do say five or ten of them and take an average.

.mil cases like LC Match have less case capacity which will cause an increase in pressures using the same charge weight in a commercial case like Remmy.

Info on .mil cases: http://www.6mmbr.com/308Win.html




 
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