Rifle Scopes Alpha Class Long Range Scope Review - TT, ZCO, Schmidt, March, Vortex
- Thread starter Glassaholic
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Lol!
Ok, so setting aside his profession, what do you guys think of his testing methodology?
Sold! Lol. I’m eyeing the 5-30 model and am torn between it and the 3-18.
Let me put it this way, his methodology appears sound, but how he got his results using this methodology has me thinking he did not have some scopes setup properly. This was discussed quite thoroughly in this thread
Rifle Scopes - High End Optics comparison from Kinetics Security Solutions
Here is an interesting test of some high end optics at 20X that someone sent me a link: https://www.kineticsecuritysolutions.com/pages/optics-comparison Included is a Zero Compromise Optic ZC527, Tangent Theta TT525P, Vortex Razor Gen III 6-36, Leupold MK5HD 5-25, Nightforce ATACR 7-35, Kahles...
www.snipershide.com I think it really comes down to whether or not you need 3x at the bottom end. Personally, I feel 3x is a much greater difference than 5x vs. 18x to 30x at the top end, I know that sounds strange but as you get lower and lower into the magnification realm you get much greater FOV but you reach certain limitations as you increase magnification so unless you need above 20x for PID purposes, outside of LD there isn't a lot of use cases that justify extreme magnification in long distance shooting. I can shoot 1.5 miles at 15x without issue (I've done it) where greater magnification would have induced mirage effect distortion that would have caused the target to dance too much, yes, too much magnification can become a hindrance in many atmospheric conditions.
Thank you for breaking it all down, and you brought up a valid point that’s hanging me up. I’ll mainly be using it on the range (on my AT) and my closest range is 900. Having the extra mag range in the 5-30 could be a benefit, but the mirage down here on a hot day is something fierce.
I love the 3-15/4-16 scopes on the AT, the 3-18 even better, but that is very much personal preference, an argument could be made for either and I do not think you'd go wrong with either.
Thanks for the generous, relevant, and detailed response. Have you compared the March 1.5-15 to the ATACR 4-16 yet? I very much look forward to this data. Also, you are the one that has made me aware of the Burris XTR III and the Steiner T6Xi 3-18x56. I have read up a bit on both of them. F7
I'm in the midst of the review of the ATACR and 1.5-15 now, it will take a bit to get out though. The ATACR is very impressive for what it is and as suspected bests the March above 10x so much that if you were to tell me that the majority of your time would be spent above 10x then I'd say get the ATACR or another scope, but if you spend the majority of the time below 10x and would like the convenience of 15x when needed the March 1.5-15 makes a compelling argument for everything it offers and if you were to then tell me you plan to use NV/Thermal clipons then I'd recommend the March all the more. Once they have the DR-TR2B reticle out with larger tree dots, I think I will really like the DFP reticle, the SFP bright red dot is very bright and makes using the scope at low mags a breeze.
Geez. I don’t know if you saved me money or cost me money Glassaholic. With my informal 200y shooting, the Razor gen3 with 15% off at Midway is too hard to beat. Ive been looking at the ATACR and March seems to tout about the mirage capabilities of their 5-42x FX. Your review however convinced me to go with the Razor gen 3.
That midway price is very easy to beat, look up Liberty optics on here they’re doing 52.5% off msrp right now.
If you want a scope before Halloween then Liberty is not the way to go.
Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise, the Razor G3 is ideal for informal 200y shooting, even 15y shooting. I have the scope on my tricked out Bergara B14R rimfire trainer
. Nothing wrong with using a really good scope at shorter ranges. Now, do you “need” a really good scope is really only something you can answer and I’m guessing after you get it, we’ll be hearing back how much you love it If you don’t then TheOE800 will buy it from you 
I’ve bought 3 from him, I’m more then willing to wait for that kind of savings.
I ordered one at the memorial day sale announcement, he told me I will be receiving it in July. He lives local to me. The steiner t6xi took 5 weeks to get delivered at a substantial savings as well. I'm patient, most the time.
You’re definitely not wrong.
We'll see how long it takes. I just acquired a lrp s3 6-36 in trade with a buddy, so I don't need the gen3 immediately.
In all honesty… It kind of ruins every other scope I own - a way bigger step up from the PST G2 than I imagined.
I had a feeling that would be the case. These new Japanese optics are really challenging the optical performance of the mid-range scope (bravo class) or mid tier, however you'd like to put that or rank that. That being said I am hearing from very good resources that the new Schmidt 6-36x56 may be a challenger to the very best optical experience in long range scopes.
God i cannot wait to get one. It’s been at the back of my mind ever since I looked through it. Not to mention its 2.2 lbs and still feels like a tank.
IMO...yep..
Please explain.
My issue with these scopes is the image quality falls off past 25x. The image gets dimmer (to be expected) but it also loses contrast and won’t resolve the stuff I want to see.
I have owned and used ..2 x March Genesis 6-60.. 2 x March Genesis 4-40.. 2 x NF ATCR 7-35 .. 2 x ZCO 8-40 .. 1 x Vortex Razor 6-36. ..
Currently using 2 x S&B 6-36
I also own an TT 5-25 , 2 x S&B 5-25,s , S&B 3-27, and owned 4 x ZCO 5-27,s
As you say, ALL optics start to fall off as the power range is increased ..BUT !! some handle it far better than others.
Of all of the above mentioned optics, the standout's for usable power above 25x are the March 6-60 and the S&B 6-36.
The worst is the ZCO 8-40..
My main usage at present is ELR so i much prefer the highest mag possible for the given weather conditions..
The March 6-60 is very very good up to 40x ....the S&B 6-36 is right with it up to its max of 36x , but the S&B has just superb edge to edge clarity and better contrast.....best of any optic i have used.
The ZCO is the worst...much over 30x and it gets VERY soft/murky...
The 7-35 ATACR is very good up 30-32x ..much better than the ZCO.
The Vortex is also very good.
The S&B 6-36,s have been the biggest surprise.......at present they are the best optic i have used ..
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I have owned and used ..2 x March Genesis 6-60.. 2 x March Genesis 4-40.. 2 x NF ATCR 7-35 .. 2 x ZCO 8-40 .. 1 x Vortex Razor 6-36. ..
Currently using 2 x S&B 6-36
I also own an TT 5-25 , 2 x S&B 5-25,s , S&B 3-27, and owned 4 x ZCO 5-27,s
As you say, ALL optics start to fall off as the power range is increased ..BUT !! some handle it far better than others.
Of all of the above mentioned optics, the standout's for usable power above 25x are the March 6-60 and the S&B 6-36.
The worst is the ZCO 8-40..
My main usage at present is ELR so i much prefer the highest mag possible for the given weather conditions..
The March 6-60 is very very good up to 40x ....the S&B 6-36 is right with it up to its max of 36x , but the S&B has just superb edge to edge clarity and better contrast.....best of any optic i have used.
The ZCO is the worst...much over 30x and it gets VERY soft/murky...
The 7-35 ATACR is very good up 30-32x ..much better than the ZCO.
The Vortex is also very good.
The S&B 6-36,s have been the biggest surprise.......at present they are the best optic i have used ..
My Razor is good up to 30x. After that there is a substantial loss of resolution. My ZP5 renders the best image. I would like to have something like that but at 36x.
How much better is the S&B over the Razor at 36x?
The 6-36 PMII resolves cell tower cables and minute details on the actual cell tower through heavy NoVa/DC area heat mirage…on 15X. I’d suspect those two scopes are not in the same playing field although there is a big price difference so take that as you will.
You are not the only one to share those sentiments on the Schmidt 6-36 from those who also own (have owned) the other alpha scopes you mention. ILya is about to do a full review of the Schmidt 6-36, TT 7-35, ZCO 8-40 and use the TT 5-25 and Vortex G3 6-36 as baseline - I think that will be a very telling review as ILya is extremely thorough.I have owned and used ..2 x March Genesis 6-60.. 2 x March Genesis 4-40.. 2 x NF ATCR 7-35 .. 2 x ZCO 8-40 .. 1 x Vortex Razor 6-36. ..
Currently using 2 x S&B 6-36
I also own an TT 5-25 , 2 x S&B 5-25,s , S&B 3-27, and owned 4 x ZCO 5-27,s
As you say, ALL optics start to fall off as the power range is increased ..BUT !! some handle it far better than others.
Of all of the above mentioned optics, the standout's for usable power above 25x are the March 6-60 and the S&B 6-36.
The worst is the ZCO 8-40..
My main usage at present is ELR so i much prefer the highest mag possible for the given weather conditions..
The March 6-60 is very very good up to 40x ....the S&B 6-36 is right with it up to its max of 36x , but the S&B has just superb edge to edge clarity and better contrast.....best of any optic i have used.
The ZCO is the worst...much over 30x and it gets VERY soft/murky...
The 7-35 ATACR is very good up 30-32x ..much better than the ZCO.
The Vortex is also very good.
The S&B 6-36,s have been the biggest surprise.......at present they are the best optic i have used ..
Looking forward to that review but not what it might do to my discretionary spending budget...
I agree with the comments above about the resolution and clarity of the SB 6-36.
I acquired one a few weeks ago with the P5FL reticle and DTII+ knobs and it quickly became top dog of alpha scopes for me. The day I received it, I took it outside to hastily compare it to my TT525. The clarity of the SB reminded me of a premium prime camera lens because I could see a skink doing its mating dance at over 200y as if it were right in front of me (nope, this is not a good reason to drop this kind of cash). I also found that I could use the reticle all the way through the magnification range, which was a huge surprise. Most scopes out there falter at one end or the other of the magnification range, especially when that range is x6. Moreover, the entire viewing field--top to bottom and side to side--is crisp, has outstanding contrast, and does not have edge distortion.
Oddities: (1) the ocular is long, about an inch longer than the TT and (2) it is about half an inch thicker diameter than the TT. I needed to push the scope up on my pic rail to the front-most slot. I also found that with a 1.5" mount, there isn't much space between the bolt knob and the ocular tube. If I were using a lower mount, I am pretty sure my thumb would hit the tube every time I cycled the bolt. Some people may not like the appearance of the illumination knob but, for me at least, it works well tactilely.
I acquired one a few weeks ago with the P5FL reticle and DTII+ knobs and it quickly became top dog of alpha scopes for me. The day I received it, I took it outside to hastily compare it to my TT525. The clarity of the SB reminded me of a premium prime camera lens because I could see a skink doing its mating dance at over 200y as if it were right in front of me (nope, this is not a good reason to drop this kind of cash). I also found that I could use the reticle all the way through the magnification range, which was a huge surprise. Most scopes out there falter at one end or the other of the magnification range, especially when that range is x6. Moreover, the entire viewing field--top to bottom and side to side--is crisp, has outstanding contrast, and does not have edge distortion.
Oddities: (1) the ocular is long, about an inch longer than the TT and (2) it is about half an inch thicker diameter than the TT. I needed to push the scope up on my pic rail to the front-most slot. I also found that with a 1.5" mount, there isn't much space between the bolt knob and the ocular tube. If I were using a lower mount, I am pretty sure my thumb would hit the tube every time I cycled the bolt. Some people may not like the appearance of the illumination knob but, for me at least, it works well tactilely.
I have decided that all my reviews going forward will include not just resolution testing but also small reptilian mating rituals as a means for determining performance
Seriously though BC, I appreciate your comments here along with wooferocau above. Using the venerable TT 5-25 as a reference point (baseline) from which to compare is extremely helpful for those of us familiar with the alpha class but who have not yet had a particular scope in hand (in this case the Schmidt 6-36). Granted, everyone sees things differently but when it comes to good glass it seems there is some commonality or agreement within the community as to what makes the experience behind the scope so good. The fact that the engineers behind the TT and Minox ZP5 designs were largely from Schmidt & Bender has made me wonder why Schmidt themselves have not tried to produce a "replacement" for the PM II 5-25 design, that started this pursuit of optical perfection back in 2006, has surprised me, but it looks like they may have finally done this with the 6-36 and it sounds like they are raising the bar for what a 6x magnification optic is capable of.Appreciate this a lot, so probably not the scope for low rings on a crossover/hunter rifle, but may be ideal for chassis class rifles like AI and others where you can put a pretty sizeable mount on there.
IMO ...the S&B is quite a step up in all aspects..
I agree. May be a few steps up in some respects.IMO ...the S&B is quite a step up in all aspects..
That is a VERY interesting observation..
Some time ago i replaced my trusty Swaro spotting scope with a KOWA TSN88a which has absolutely superb optics !! On a good day the S&B 6-36 is the first rifle scope i have had that "starts" to rival the spotting scope for outright "clarity"
I mean 2k street price VS 5 G's? I'd hope it's better in all aspects. That gap between euro alpha price glass and the tops of Japanese is getting more narrow all the time luckily for the consumer.IMO ...the S&B is quite a step up in all aspects..
Last range trip I was able to resolve 6mm bullet holes in paper at 735 yards with the Razor G3 on 36x under ideal conditions. I’m not sure I’ll ever “need” better resolution than that.
That wasnt the question that was asked though.
lol ok
What was the question then?
What you think I’ll need better resolution at some point?
No, resolving .15” holes in paper at 735 yards is spectacular.
He asked whether it was better. It is based on everyone who's had a chance to look through them both. Whether its better for you or not, or whether its worth more is a different thing altogether.
I agree and I was amazed that it happened.
It was ideal conditions but still surprising. Bright white paper, on top of a clearcut ridge right at sunrise (zero mirage) and the sun hitting the targets. I’ve never looked through an “alpha” scope so I can’t understand someone being disappointed in the resolution of the G3. I purchased it from liberty optics and am not sponsored by Vortex so I have no reason to embellish the truth.
On 36x I could see all the holes in the white paper but not the one in the blue or the cardboard box.
Anybody else notice that Schmidt MSRP suddenly dropped today on all Schmidt scopes on EO? I was looking this morning and MSRP on the 6-36x56 DT II+ with P5FL reticle was $5170, I looked this evening and it now shows $4480?? That's a $690 MSRP drop, is that a one day fluke or did Schmidt "quietly" drop USA pricing, I notice the same drop with the Ultra Shorts so it's not just the 6-36...
I think sales were tanking...
@BoldCorrections damnit bro now you got me thinking I might need to pick up a 636 with the p5...
I wish it had the illumination tumor tho sigh....
That's interesting. I wonder if there have been any distribution changes, but if Schmidt keeps that scope under $5k it will get into more hands.
The version that is heading my way is the one with DTII+ turrets and GR2ID reticle. I really like that reticle and those turrets. It should be a formidable combination, but we'll see. I did not like the 3-27x and 5-45x S&B a whole lot, so I hope the new 6-36x is a worthy successor to the nearly ageless 5-25x.
ILya
MSRP still down today, so not just a one day fluke hopefully. I agree, if they can keep this scope at the current MSRP ($4480 for DT II+ with GR2ID) then I have a feeling it will get into a lot more hands as street price will be more reasonable. I agree that the GR2ID is the best of the busy reticles, but I'd still prefer a Gen3 XR/FML-TR1 style reticle for Schmidt, kind of always hoped that FinnAccuracy would create a MSR3 that offered a dot tree option... But regardless of what I wish for, the GR2ID and P5FL are two viable options for the community so think this scope will sell well at these "new" prices and with how good it is purported to be. I am most anticipating your thorough review of not just the Schmidt 6-36 but also the TT 7-35, ZCO 8-40 along with the TT 5-25 and Vortex 6-36 - that will provide an excellent baseline and insight for where these new scopes fall into the grand scheme of things.
