Alternative choice to push-button sling loops on bolt guns?

[Terry Cross]

For years, we have seen even the best brands of push-button sling loops have functional issues after hard use.
The internal ball/detent is susceptible to rust, dust and sand. Even the stainless flush cups seem to get pretty jacked up with heavy use in addition to rust and corrosion leaching from the infected/affected push-button loop.

This can continue to the point that the push-button feature becomes inoperable thus either locking itself to the flush cup or alternatively not allowing a safe lockup when attaching.

In addition to the above pitfalls, your sling can become a twisted mess if you are not rocking the limited rotation feature in the flush cups.

- - - - - - - -

We all have been using HK style hardpoints on our gassers for years with none of the above issues.
I was already looking at this for bolt gun stocks and the fairly recent introduction of MagPul's Para clip made me revisit the idea due to them being quiet, quick, lockable, and non-scuff. I have been running this setup on a chassis stock for bolt gun work and have found no negatives while still retaining all the functionality of the sling utilities.

I have to acknowledge that I am a sample of one and have had limited, but positive feedback from a few that have tried it.
So. . . . I am looking for feedback from bolt gun shooters that actually still use a sling for carry or shooting stability.


I am probably going to integrate a couple of solid attach points configured to best accommodate slings with HK hooks, MASH hooks, or the Magpul Para clips on future stock designs.

Any constructive input on the Pros and Cons would be appreciated.

No wind,
T

 

[_Windrider_]

For years, we have seen even the best brands of push-button sling loops have functional issues after hard use.
The internal ball/detent is susceptible to rust, dust and sand. Even the stainless flush cups seem to get pretty jacked up with heavy use in addition to rust and corrosion leaching from the infected/affected push-button loop.

This can continue to the point that the push-button feature becomes inoperable thus either locking itself to the flush cup or alternatively not allowing a safe lockup when attaching.

In addition to the above pitfalls, your sling can become a twisted mess if you are not rocking the limited rotation feature in the flush cups.

- - - - - - - -

We all have been using HK style hardpoints on our gassers for years with none of the above issues.
I was already looking at this for bolt gun stocks and the fairly recent introduction of MagPul's Para clip made me revisit the idea due to them being quiet, quick, lockable, and non-scuff. I have been running this setup on a chassis stock for bolt gun work and have found no negatives while still retaining all the functionality of the sling utilities.

I have to acknowledge that I am a sample of one and have had limited, but positive feedback from a few that have tried it.
So. . . . I am looking for feedback from bolt gun shooters that actually still use a sling for carry or shooting stability.


I am probably going to integrate a couple of solid attach points configured to best accommodate slings with HK hooks, MASH hooks, or the Magpul Para clips on future stock designs.

Any constructive input on the Pros and Cons would be appreciated.

No wind,
T

What about a pushbutton that can also accommodate the hk style? Some kind of adapter that offers choice and multiple solutions?

 

[Terry Cross]

What about a pushbutton that can also accommodate the hk style? Some kind of adapter that offers choice and multiple solutions?

They make them.
It would be a solution via locking the necessary adapter into existing flush cups on already manufactured stocks.

Certainly would be a path forward for existing stocks but I wouldn't want to unnecessarily put another link in the chain (failure point) on a design that is still in CAD.

 

[Fig]

Your students are a bunch of pigs who abuse Uncle Stupid's expensive toys. You need to teach them to maintain rather than try to find solutions because they don't. If they're getting the rifles wet it takes extra maintenance, not less.
I'm pretty careful with my rifles in the field, and I've never experienced any of those problems. In fact, I've converted sling studs to flush cups because I hate studs so. Someone is not maintaining their weapon if the flush cups are rusted out. All metal rusts, so unless you're going to switch to prastic you can't get away from that.

 

[_Windrider_]

Your students are a bunch of pigs who abuse Uncle Stupid's expensive toys. You need to teach them to maintain rather than try to find solutions because they don't. If they're getting the rifles wet it takes extra maintenance, not less.
I'm pretty careful with my rifles in the field, and I've never experienced any of those problems. In fact, I've converted sling studs to flush cups because I hate studs so. Someone is not maintaining their weapon if the flush cups are rusted out. All metal rusts, so unless you're going to switch to prastic you can't get away from that.

Wow. This got spicy quick.

 

[Terry Cross]

Your students are a bunch of pigs who abuse Uncle Stupid's expensive toys. You need to teach them to maintain rather than try to find solutions because they don't. If they're getting the rifles wet it takes extra maintenance, not less.
I'm pretty careful with my rifles in the field, and I've never experienced any of those problems. In fact, I've converted sling studs to flush cups because I hate studs so. Someone is not maintaining their weapon if the flush cups are rusted out. All metal rusts, so unless you're going to switch to prastic you can't get away from that.

Nobody said anything about my students.
My observation is from a bunch of guns over a bunch of years.

Yes there are a lot of pigs that don't take care of their shit.

Even on well maintained guns, there is no way to clean/maintain the pushbutton loops. Once wet and/or in humid environments, they will rust. It doesn't take much to retard the ball detents and fuck up the function.

I hate studs too and thus all my rifles have flush cups. The alternative I was asking input on is not reverting back to studs so that is a moot point.

Even though your bitching is not off base, we still have to remember that we have to design products based on the lowest denominator.

 

[Fig]

Just funnin’ you

 

[MarshallDodge]

I'm wondering why you couldn't put a little grease and an o-ring on the ball detent to keep the elements out.

 

[diggler1833]

If a guy were to incorporate an HK style hook that also accommodated a push button stud (as mentioned above) - it would be the best of both worlds.

 

[Supersubes]

I’ll take a set, with the optional Zealot chassis attached please.

 

[_Windrider_]

I’ll take a set, with the optional Zealot chassis attached please.



View attachment 8714787

With a compass in the folding stock

 

[Aftermath]

With a compass in the folding stock

and make the folding part detachable with a dagger. and a place for fish hooks. yeah!

I agree with not designing a point of failure.

Not being in the market for a new stock in the foreseeable future, the flush cup adapter is my only route unless I deep dive into installing something different myself. I'm not going to do that either. I do like the flush cups that limit rotation.

 

[Mike Casselton]

I’ll take a set, with the optional Zealot chassis attached please.



View attachment 8714787

It took ten posts for that to show up.
Well done.

 

[Makinchips208]

Is Uloop the answer?

 

[Terry Cross]

Is Uloop the answer?

Uloop could be one of the answers.

It would be the same approach and use the same type of integrated slot/ring type feature to tie into as the other mentioned sling loops.

The only drawback I could see with the Uloop is that it would be pretty time consuming to remove the sling from the gun. That may not be a drawback to some but I want a way to clean up the gun when needed or get it off the body if in a bind.

 

[_Windrider_]

Uloop could be one of the answers.

It would be the same approach and use the same type of integrated slot/ring type feature to tie into as the other mentioned sling loops.

The only drawback I could see with the Uloop is that it would be pretty time consuming to remove the sling from the gun. That may not be a drawback to some but I want a way to clean up the gun when needed or get it off the body if in a bind.

Since “ARCA” is he rage how about an adapter that mounts via ARCA that is just a loop but I think more square than round if that makes sense that you can slide on and tighten the rail where you want that the hk clip can attach to. That works for the front and gives a wide range of adjustments depending on shooter suze and preference. As for the rear attachment I haven’t thought that out yet

Does that make sense? I hesitate to suggest a fixed point as that fixed point may not be optimal for everyone

 

[papershredder]

Standards for qd's can be rather loose. I've found ill-fitting qd/socket combo's between different brands. Here's some alternatives that I've been using.

Pic rail (or Mlok) mounted sling loop or

A wire loop or

go old school and tie the sling to the rifle with paracord or bungie cord if you don't want to listen to the clanging sound of hk hooks. If quick detachment of the sling is top priority. Hk hooks and qd sockets are king in that realm. The only alternative I see would be a purpose made sling with ITW buckles at the attachment points. But imo, that would just be a rube goldberg solution to the qd's and hooks.

Even coming up with an adapter like this for both ends of the rifle, one would still need webbing buckles or hk hooks. Now the wire loop is not a bad idea. Depending on which loop you get, it can be taken off easily in a timely fashion, but not as quick and easy as qd/hk. And before someone mentions it, I don't see a sling attached with velcro as a good idea. Velcro has a limited wear-life doesn't hold well when covered with dirt/mud.

 

[stanley_white]

Since “ARCA” is he rage how about an adapter that mounts via ARCA that is just a loop but I think more square than round if that makes sense that you can slide on and tighten the rail where you want that the hk clip can attach to. That works for the front and gives a wide range of adjustments depending on shooter suze and preference. As for the rear attachment I haven’t thought that out yet

Does that make sense? I hesitate to suggest a fixed point as that fixed point may not be optimal for everyone

This, but modified, comes to mind:

ohhunt® M-Lok Arca Swiss Style Rail Mount Adapter

Description The M-Lok Arca rail mount adapter for M-Lok handgaurd. Premium black anodised aluminium with superior durability and strength. Fits ARCA Swiss / RRS (Really Right Stuff) standard wide dovetail fitting tripods and tripod ballheads etc. For increased stability and precision. Flat...

www.ohhunt.com

-Stan

 

[Terry Cross]

Standards for qd's can be rather loose. I've found ill-fitting qd/socket combo's between different brands. Here's some alternatives that I've been using.

Pic rail (or Mlok) mounted sling loop or

Already been using these with good results. User can position the front attach point in the best preferred position.

M-LOK® Paraclip™ Sling Mount

M-LOK mount for clip-on slings

magpul.com

A wire loop or

Would be a viable solution but not easily released/removed on demand if needed.

go old school and tie the sling to the rifle with paracord or bungie cord if you don't want to listen to the clanging sound of hk hooks. If quick detachment of the sling is top priority. Hk hooks and qd sockets are king in that realm. The only alternative I see would be a purpose made sling with ITW buckles at the attachment points. But imo, that would just be a rube goldberg solution to the qd's and hooks.

Already been using these with excellent results. Quiet, lockable and superior to the old style HK hooks in every way.

Paraclip™

Clip-style sling attachment point

magpul.com

Even coming up with an adapter like this for both ends of the rifle, one would still need webbing buckles or hk hooks. Now the wire loop is not a bad idea. Depending on which loop you get, it can be taken off easily in a timely fashion, but not as quick and easy as qd/hk.

As mentioned above, the Para clips are seemingly the ticket.
I would just ship a set of 2 with each stock/rifle by default or at least offer them as an peripheral option when ordering.

And before someone mentions it, I don't see a sling attached with velcro as a good idea. Velcro has a limited wear-life doesn't hold well when covered with dirt/mud.

For sure. Velcro is 100% No Go.

 

[Terry Cross]

Since “ARCA” is he rage how about an adapter that mounts via ARCA that is just a loop but I think more square than round if that makes sense that you can slide on and tighten the rail where you want that the hk clip can attach to. That works for the front and gives a wide range of adjustments depending on shooter suze and preference. As for the rear attachment I haven’t thought that out yet

I would figure most would not want to homestead any ARCA rail space by adding a sling hardpoint. For sure would limit the sliding travel of adapters and available space for direct tripod clamping.

Even if the above were a non-issue, I personally would hate any sling attach point on the bottom of the stock or protruding 90 degrees to the side but anchored on the bottom of the forend. Doing so would make everything pretty floppy, sloppy and unstable when slinging up tight to go hands free. It would also induce a rolling moment when getting slung up into an unsupported shooting position. For both carrying and shooting stability, I would always prefer a side mount attach point.

Does that make sense?

Yes. I understand your suggestion but may have issues with it per above.

I hesitate to suggest a fixed point as that fixed point may not be optimal for everyone

Agreed. Having an adjustable hardpoint on the forend that can be configured / positioned optimally for each user's physique and shooting style would be a must.

I am not as worried about the rear and could easily integrate a couple of non movable attach points on both sides of the butt.

 

[_Windrider_]

I would figure most would not want to homestead any ARCA rail space by adding a sling hardpoint. For sure would limit the sliding travel of adapters and available space for direct tripod clamping.

Even if the above were a non-issue, I personally would hate any sling attach point on the bottom of the stock or protruding 90 degrees to the side but anchored on the bottom of the forend. Doing so would make everything pretty floppy, sloppy and unstable when slinging up tight to go hands free. It would also induce a rolling moment when getting slung up into an unsupported shooting position. For both carrying and shooting stability, I would always prefer a side mount attach point.


Yes. I understand your suggestion but may have issues with it per above.



Agreed. Having an adjustable hardpoint on the forend that can be configured / positioned optimally for each user's physique and shooting style would be a must.

I am not as worried about the rear and could easily integrate a couple of non movable attach points on both sides of the butt.

Well it could be designed to “wrap” around the handguard nice and close at a 90 but still allow it to be placed anywhere. Are we really using that much ARCA rail space on a full length rail? I don’t see it being an issue. I’m also just throwing stuff out there. I’m on a plane and don’t have the ability to draw out what I’m very simply trying to articulate.

Now as for going hands on, is that a major factor? Most bolt guns aren’t being used in a manner where that would be likely unlike in an AR application. Maybe I’m wrong.

 

[Terry Cross]

If a guy were to incorporate an HK style hook that also accommodated a push button stud (as mentioned above) - it would be the best of both worlds.

MagPul makes these and I have some on a couple of ARs.

QD Paraclip™ Adapter

Allows use with clip-in attachments

magpul.com

For sure, it would be a fix if one wanted to use existing flush cups in an existing stock to run Para Clips, HK or MASH hooks on their sling.

I wouldn't want to force somebody into that extra link in the chain on a new stock design.
I would certainly still retain the ability for the user to attach push button loops via the traditional flush cup sockets, but have a turnkey option for this alternate attachment choice.

 

[Terry Cross]

Well it could be designed to “wrap” around the handguard nice and close at a 90 but still allow it to be placed anywhere. Are we really using that much ARCA rail space on a full length rail? I don’t see it being an issue.

YOU don't see an issue, and I think it would be trivial BUT we both know some would be super vocal about it even if it were a non-problem!

I’m also just throwing stuff out there. I’m on a plane and don’t have the ability to draw out what I’m very simply trying to articulate.

Understood and I appreciate the thoughts. Throwing stuff out there was the intent of the thread.

Now as for going hands on, is that a major factor? Most bolt guns aren’t being used in a manner where that would be likely unlike in an AR application. Maybe I’m wrong.

You are mostly right.
The bolt guns are more "High Risk/Low Frequency" tools that are generally used in a different execution. Still there is LOTs of need to secure the rifle for moving other gear, climbing, getting through and around barriers, traversing longer distances to FFPs and still occasionally putting hands on somebody.

2 weeks ago we ran scenarios during a state sniper week in the PNW where there was a quite a lot of climbing, moving and task management that could only be done efficiently with the rifle slung tight. Watching dudes that are efficient and very comfortable with their kit was pretty cool.

 

[papershredder]

Already been using these with excellent results. Quiet, lockable and superior to the old style HK hooks in every way.

Paraclip™

Clip-style sling attachment point

magpul.com

I would just ship a set of 2 with each stock/rifle by default or at least offer them as an peripheral option when ordering.

Those have not been on my radar. But, it's been a couple years since I last looked on the sling market. Have you seen, heard of, or had any of those fail yet? I wonder how well the plastic holds up over time, exposure to the elements, and the wear and tear of usage.

But, integrating sling attachment points on the chassis would be a bonus in my book. Especially if a 6:00 attachment point can be integrated without interfering with a bipod.

 

[carbonbased]

I am not a hard user, but even I have had failures in Grovtec push button/flushcups. I’ve sworn them off very, very recently and went to QD paraclip adapters for female flush cups, and MLOK paraclip adapters for, uh, MLOK.

On the sling I went to uLoops, which are NOT the old-style wire loops btw. They are also made by BFG, but are QD (not quite as fast as a flush cup, but fast-ish).

I haven’t used my new system enough to have an opinion on reliability.

ULoop below. See vid for how to quickly attach and remove from the gun.

Below, the BFG regular wire loop, slow to attach and remove as the wire loop is fixed.

 

[carbonbased]

Not saying the paraclips are great-looking (flush cup versions here), but here they are on my AT.

The buttstock one is pointed down, otherwise it hits me in the jaw.

 

[Terry Cross]

Those have not been on my radar. But, it's been a couple years since I last looked on the sling market. Have you seen, heard of, or had any of those fail yet? I wonder how well the plastic holds up over time, exposure to the elements, and the wear and tear of usage.

I can't speak for years of usage yet but they have been doing nicely with 14 to 18lb rifle rigs getting banged around. That would include the occasional getting the rifle caught on shit and other shock/shear type spike loading to the part.

Not 100% sure of the construction. It appears to be some type of glass reinforced nylon/polymer material. May have some type of metal or glass spine that the part is molded around. I haven't cut one in two yet to find out.

Most of the material science seems to already be proven and hashed out with everything else including pistol frames, stocks, etc.

But, integrating sling attachment points on the chassis would be a bonus in my book. Especially if a 6:00 attachment point can be integrated without interfering with a bipod.

 

[Terry Cross]

Not saying the paraclips are great-looking (flush cup versions here), but here they are on my AT.

The buttstock one is pointed down, otherwise it hits me in the jaw.

View attachment 8715080

Your pic made me get in The Way Back machine.

Remember the original AICS 1.0, 1.5 and 2.0 chassis?
They all had steel loops for HK style sling attachments by default. I kinda forgot about that.

 

[hlee]

After my son inadvertently depressed a QD swivel during a run and gun, and rapidly deployed the rifle into the gravel road bed, I’ve been transitioning from QD swivels to paraclips and footman loops. Those are about as dummy proof as you can get.

 

[carbonbased]

Your pic made me get in The Way Back machine.

Remember the original AICS 1.0, 1.5 and 2.0 chassis?
They all had steel loops for HK style sling attachments by default. I kinda forgot about that.

I didn’t pay much attention to the AICS versions, but I have seen those solid steel loops on older AIs. Like AW/AWM versions.

Mine is an AIAT 2023 version. I don’t think I can retrofit it with the steel loops, especially up front or in the middle. The rear might be doable, but we’ll see how the QD paraclips work out.

Btw those uLoops I have are really quiet in use compared to flush cups.

 

[TheBigCountry]

Tell you what @Terry Cross

Send me a zealot with the prototype sling mounting hardware, and I promise I’ll give it the total Marine treatment

If it comes back pregnant, I’m not the dad.

 

[TheBigCountry]

Not saying the paraclips are great-looking (flush cup versions here), but here they are on my AT.

The buttstock one is pointed down, otherwise it hits me in the jaw.

View attachment 8715080

Weird flex breaker-of-Tikkas

 

[carbonbased]

Weird flex breaker-of-Tikkas

You’ll rejoin the sage green club someday man. Or was it DE? ES?

 

[stanley_white]

Not saying the paraclips are great-looking (flush cup versions here), but here they are on my AT.

The buttstock one is pointed down, otherwise it hits me in the jaw.

View attachment 8715080

Thank you for posting.

I just ordered these for my AI AT.

-Stan

 

[TheBigCountry]

You’ll rejoin the sage green club someday man. Or was it DE? ES?

It was the exclusive Bob Ross club. Let me know when you wanna join.

 

[mark5pt56]

The Magpul Para Clips are pretty stout and easy on/off, the Uloops would make it fairly easy, technically not needing anything other than a hole. (that's what she said anyhow)

 

[carbonbased]

It was the exclusive Bob Ross club. Let me know when you wanna join.

FYI I’m thinking of starting an OnlyFans for peeps watching me break their Tikkas.

Usernames in consideration: 2SqueezyWrench, MeBreakUrBarrel, PfffWhoNeedsThreads

 

[TheBigCountry]

FYI I’m thinking of starting an OnlyFans for peeps watching me break their Tikkas.

Usernames in consideration: 2SqueezyWrench, MeBreakUrBarrel, PfffWhoNeedsThreads

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

 

[mark5pt56]

Referencing sling attachments, I lost track of how many carbines spiked the ground with either the "dog leash" snaps or the Mash hooks. The dog leash snaps simply lacked the spring tension and the Mash hooks would open up after a while, allowing them to "unthread" themselves from the attachment loop on the gun.

 

[roostercogburn98]

Good old fashion sling loops and buckles to remove from both ends? I know it’s probably dinosaur age stuff, but I’m just simple jack inside

 

[carbonbased]

Mash hooks would open up after a while

Huh. Mash hooks failed too? Never used those but they always looked pretty bomber. Dang.

The dog leash snaps simply lacked the spring tension

Do Hk hooks = dog leash hooks?

If my QD uLoops don’t pan out, I guess there’s always the metal BFG Belt-Fed Loops to try.

Belt Fed Loop (BFL)

The Belt Fed Loop offers a loop-and-lock attachment system for barrels that are smoking hot.

www.blueforcegear.com

Or locking carabiners lol.

 

[SortOfClear]

Fastex buckles with two 550 loops or a single strand of nylon webbing. One each end of sling and one 1/3 way from forend for easy on/off. Weapon attachment points are generally irrelevant using this method. Cheap, easy to swap between weapons. Lightweight to keep a spare. Only trouble might be cracking one if you hit it perfectly.

 

[mark5pt56]

Reference the dog leash-better named snaps, popular with the single point bungee slings. On the Mash Hooks, they separate under hard use, like a key ring and it then eventually "unthreads" from the weapon mount.

 

[carbonbased]

Reference the dog leash-better named snaps, popular with the single point bungee slings. On the Mash Hooks, they separate under hard use, like a key ring and it then eventually "unthreads" from the weapon mount.

Totally get what you’re saying. Just didn’t know if you were using maybe a generic name for HK hooks. Sounds like you’re not?

Just trying to learn something.

Maybe you mean these types of connections:

Those look sucky.

 

[mark5pt56]

Totally get what you’re saying. Just didn’t know if you were using maybe a generic name for HK hooks. Sounds like you’re not?

Just trying to learn something.

Maybe you mean these types of connections:
View attachment 8715385
Those look sucky.

I don't use them but back in the "early days" seemed like every Tom, Dick and Harry with an "M4" and Royal Robin, etc. pants used those wholesale when single point slings were really popular. Real HK hooks are good, a lot of places would use knock offs, giving HK ones a bad rap.
Kind of strayed from Terry's intent, sorry.
I would go with the Magpul Para clip as I would be leery with the ULoop being polymer under the weight of a precision rig, especially under hard use, climbing, quick runs and knocking into things.

 

[carbonbased]

Fastex buckles with two 550 loops or a single strand of nylon webbing. One each end of sling and one 1/3 way from forend for easy on/off.

Your post about Fastex buckles made me remember Cobra buckles, and the fact that they partnered with ITW to also make a poly version.

https://milspecmonkey.com/store/hardware-diy/372-itw-gt-cobra-buckle.html?gQT=2

No idea how great either the metal or poly versions are, but just throwing it out there for ideas.

 

[SortOfClear]

Your post about Fastex buckles made me remember Cobra buckles, and the fact that they partnered with ITW to also make a poly version.
View attachment 8715508

https://milspecmonkey.com/store/hardware-diy/372-itw-gt-cobra-buckle.html?gQT=2

No idea how great either the metal or poly versions are, but just throwing it out there for ideas.

Cobra buckles have many of the same issues as push buttons; debris, rust, hard to use in duress, etc. Very good for equipment that needs rated capacities in limited exposure. Not great for gear used throughout infil, on x, and exfil (personal opinion only).

 

[Terry Cross]

Your post about Fastex buckles made me remember Cobra buckles, and the fact that they partnered with ITW to also make a poly version.
View attachment 8715508

https://milspecmonkey.com/store/hardware-diy/372-itw-gt-cobra-buckle.html?gQT=2

No idea how great either the metal or poly versions are, but just throwing it out there for ideas.

I have not been recommending Cobra buckles on slings for work guns. The Cobras cannot be undone when under a load. If you are in a bind, it is entirely possible to not get enough slack to clink out of it.

If the user has to un-ass his rifle via popping the sling in half, Fastex is the way to go for me.

 

[Aftermath]

Quick release mechanism.