Am I just trash with an AR?

[Jackomason]

I'm having some real struggles with shooting groups. I'm slowly realizing that I just might be trash at shooting.

This is my first attempt at building and shooting a precision small frame AR. The plan was to get a barrel in and test it before sending it off to D.wilson to have it converted for the LMT MRP.

This is where it went sideways. The barrel shoots like crap. My first outing I had shot the 75gr RMRs in to a laughable 6" group (didn't measure). The 69gr SMK and N140 shot a lot better but still big.

The second outing wasn't much better. I was testing a different load and was removing muzzle devices changing bolts etc.

The groups had a totally different shape with a lot of horizontal stringing.

After getting off the rifle, I shot Black #2. I noticed a POI shift and figured I'd change my bags out (ended up stacking a fortune cookie on my Wiebad rear bag (I don't like that bag, but it fit under the B5 sopmod stock)

Do I just need to get a different stock? New rear bag? Is this barrel trash? Am I trash?

I know semi autos are a different animal but I'm not new to shooting precision rifles...

 

[Top O' Texas]

Sometimes the barrel doesn't like the bullets regardless of primers and/or powders. AR's are different animals when it comes to this between ba's. What's the twist rate?

 

[Jackomason]

Sometimes the barrel doesn't like the bullets regardless of primers and/or powders. AR's are different animals when it comes to this between ba's. What's the twist rate?

It's a WOA 18" SPR 1-8" rifle length.

I had that thought and have a few different types headed my way.

I'm used to bolt guns just shooting, so that's a fair assessment. I just thought the group shape changes were telling me something.

 

[1911hombre]

On the second picture are those stickies 1" or what? No reference to size. If they are 1" then your results could be a combo of fundamental problems, as in cheekweld, follow-thru, NPA, trigger control, don't reset trigger 'till you have impact. Is that a 4-16x42 ATACR? What mag are you trying to shoot groups with? What's with the bipod stretched out so tall? I'd have to be on my hands and knees to have a bipod that tall.

 

[Top O' Texas]

Use the same breathing and trigger control like ba's. The 8 is fine for the 75's unless they're match bullets. I haven't reloaded much for the 5.56, but will be reloading 75's of Hornady 75bthp and Speer 75tmj.

 

[Jackomason]

On the second picture are those stickies 1" or what? No reference to size. If they are 1" then your results could be a combo of fundamental problems, as in cheekweld, follow-thru, NPA, trigger control. Is that a 4-16x42 ATACR? What mag are you trying to shoot groups with? What's with the bipod stretched out so tall? I's have to be on my hands and knees to have a bipod that tall.

The stickers are just under 1".

It is a 4-16 ATACR @16x. I don't have any issues seeing the target and felt good about POA throughout. The mount is a 1.54" and I generally have more contact with the stock, so cheekweld could be an issue but I'd assume parallax adjustment would solve that (?).

I pin the trigger to the rear, build a position behind the rifle and don't take my face off the gun until the group is done. I'm a midpack shooter at matches. I can't see myself though so maybe my position is jacked up? I guess I'll video myself when I go out next.

Would I be wrong in focusing on my rear bag?

 

[Old Man with Gun]

You need a class, coach, club or match. You need others to shoot your rifle / ammo to know if the problem is you or it.

If you don't know if you are the problem, you need a support network that can watch you shoot and give advice.

 

[1911hombre]

Try turning your mag down to maybe 8-10x. I learned to do this from HMFIC. Works for me.

 

[hlee]

Fundamentals are fundamentals. That’s why they are called fundamental. Position, breathing, sight alignment, trigger press. But, compared to bolt guns, AR triggers tend to suck. And, the recoil starts as soon as you break the trigger. The giant mass of metal hurtling toward you as the other tiny piece of metal hurtles away from you gives you less margin for error, even in a “low recoiling” 5.56/223 rifle. An AR will exploit gaps in your fundamentals that a bolt action doesn’t know exist. Grip pressure, shoulder pressure, cheek pressure, bipod load; these all affect the shot, and they affect an AR more.

So, what trigger are you running in that thing?

 

[hafejd30]

It's a WOA 18" SPR 1-8" rifle length.

I had that thought and have a few different types headed my way.

I'm used to bolt guns just shooting, so that's a fair assessment. I just thought the group shape changes were telling me something.

I’m sure fundamentals have some play here. I have the same barrel on an AR of mine. Shoots very well with hornady steel match 55 grain. Only thing I’ve shot from it so far.

Maybe try some different factory ammo. As noted above not all ammo will work well

Are you crimping? AR’s can move OAL if not enough neck tension or crimping

 

[Jackomason]

Fundamentals are fundamentals. That’s why they are called fundamental. Position, breathing, sight alignment, trigger press. But, compared to bolt guns, AR triggers tend to suck. And, the recoil starts as soon as you break the trigger. The giant mass of metal hurtling toward you as the other tiny piece of metal hurtles away from you gives you less margin for error, even in a “low recoiling” 5.56/223 rifle. An AR will exploit gaps in your fundamentals that a bolt action doesn’t know exist. Grip pressure, shoulder pressure, cheek pressure, bipod load; these all affect the shot, and they affect an AR more.

So, what trigger are you running in that thing?

I think you're right. I really try to practice my fundamentals but I don't think the bolt guns are telling the full story. Although I still shoot my 300 NM decently.

It's an SSAE, however I also have a MBT2S that seems to be a bit more crisp.

I’m sure fundamentals have some play here. I have the same barrel on an AR of mine. Shoots very well with hornady steel match 55 grain. Only thing I’ve shot from it so far.

Maybe try some different factory ammo. As noted above not all ammo will work well

Are you crimping? AR’s can move OAL if not enough neck tension or crimping

I did try both with and without a crimp. I'll get some factory ammo this next week but I'll be stuck at a conference so it'll have to wait.

I think I'll also pick up a magpul DT PR to see if it rides a bag better.

 

[Top O' Texas]

I’m sure fundamentals have some play here. I have the same barrel on an AR of mine. Shoots very well with hornady steel match 55 grain. Only thing I’ve shot from it so far.

Maybe try some different factory ammo. As noted above not all ammo will work well

Are you crimping? AR’s can move OAL if not enough neck tension or crimping

Some disagree with the crimping part, but I crimping all cartridges used for my AR's. Full auto is more if a reason to crimp than semi is. Reduce recoil and it takes away the kinetic energy which usually slows down cyclic rate.

 

[db2000]

It’s you or it’s garbage. I agree about barrels and bullet combos but jeez.

 

[hlee]

And, buy some factory “match” ammunition. It might be my own superstition, but I don’t judge a barrel based on my ability to hand load.

 

[Jackomason]

It’s you or it’s garbage. I agree about barrels and bullet combos but jeez.

Exactly. I've never shot a 4" group let alone 6"+

I haven't ruled the equipment out but I don't want to be that guy. I've been shooting and reloading for a while now and this is a new low lol. I'm all for learning though.

 

[hafejd30]

Some disagree with the crimping part, but I crimping all cartridges used for my AR's. Full auto is more if a reason to crimp than semi is. Reduce recoil and it takes away the kinetic energy which usually slows down cyclic rate.

I had a rock river LAR 8 308 I loaded for a while back. Obviously a 308 vs 556 here. But used small base rcbs dies with no crimp. The bolt slamming forward would work like a bullet puller and the bullet would slide forward .005-.010” when the round loaded

In this case there’s many things it can be. Obviously checking equipment like rings etc are first. Then ammo combo.

That stringing would lead me believe the gun wants to shoot well but equipment or fundamentals are holding it back

 

[db2000]

Exactly. I've never shot a 4" group let alone 6"+

I haven't ruled the equipment out but I don't want to be that guy. I've been shooting and reloading for a while now and this is a new low lol. I'm all for learning though.

For sure. You’ve been on here a long time and obviously hand load, so I give that a lot of respect frankly. You mentioned shooting bolt guns and building your first AR so that’s my assessment. Gas guns as you’ve read are fundamentally challenging. The groups aren’t horrible but I shoot mostly gas. Varget and anything 69-77 should be an easy work up 7-8 tw.

 

[bfoosh006]

Practice , practice.. practice... Gas guns take a longer follow through than bolt guns.

 

[M4orturnate]

Gas guns are different for sure and much harder to shoot well. Just to see chamber a round and slowly extract it and see if the bullet is all scraped up. I've seen feed lips fuck up some bullets. I also bed my barrels on precision gas guns.(Idk if it helps or not but mine shoot pretty well). I have a white oak barrel that shoots 75g bullets as well as a bolt gun at about 2650fps(20" barrel) when I speed it up the groups open up but it's still around moa. Good enough for gas gun matches.

 

[Mulepackhunter]

if it is the equipment there is so much tolerance stacking on an AR its going to be tough to find on here. A good builder could pull it apart and maybe find some issues to look into. Its nice if you have other guns to swap parts with and eliminate possibilities

 

[Joe Z]

Your first pic shows predominantly vertical errors in the group. That is breathing control and poor check weld.

Your second pic shows more horizontal error which is trigger control and body/target index error(not straight behind the rifle).

As mentioned above, the bipod is a too high and collapsible stocks are a bit loose and these will just plain open a group up.

So, add a check riser and some tape to make the stock tighter and fit you or get that PRS you mentioned. (I prefer the UBR, a little less stable but it adapts to more different positions). Get yourself straight behind the rifle. Frank has an old video here somewhere that he demonstrates this using a pencil analogy. Imagine two pencils inline lying on a desk and you have to push the second one forward by only holding the first. If they are not inline the second slides at a tangent, like the bullets. Also, draw that trigger straight back and follow through (hold it.) Semi auto exploits poor NPOA (natural point of aim) more as the internal ballistics take more time.

 

[Jackomason]

if it is the equipment there is so much tolerance stacking on an AR its going to be tough to find on here. A good builder could pull it apart and maybe find some issues to look into. Its nice if you have other guns to swap parts with and eliminate possibilities

I do have 3 ARs I can play with. This is my first precision AR. If you're right, things should sort themselves out with the full LMT build.

I'm going to see if I can figure it out before spending the money on the D.wilson conversion.

I'll report back once I change some crap and test some other bullets. I figured 3/4" was sloppy fundamentals but I guess I'll find out.

 

[weasle]

I'm having some real struggles with shooting groups. I'm slowly realizing that I just might be trash at shooting.

This is my first attempt at building and shooting a precision small frame AR. The plan was to get a barrel in and test it before sending it off to D.wilson to have it converted for the LMT MRP.

This is where it went sideways. The barrel shoots like crap. My first outing I had shot the 75gr RMRs in to a laughable 6" group (didn't measure). The 69gr SMK and N140 shot a lot better but still big.
View attachment 8641126

The second outing wasn't much better. I was testing a different load and was removing muzzle devices changing bolts etc.

The groups had a totally different shape with a lot of horizontal stringing.

After getting off the rifle, I shot Black #2. I noticed a POI shift and figured I'd change my bags out (ended up stacking a fortune cookie on my Wiebad rear bag (I don't like that bag, but it fit under the B5 sopmod stock)

View attachment 8641132

Do I just need to get a different stock? New rear bag? Is this barrel trash? Am I trash?

I know semi autos are a different animal but I'm not new to shooting precision rifles...

View attachment 8641138

Some other obvious things...Did you check the glass to the rings are tight...The mount to the receiver? Different glass to rule out the NF is not an issue? IS the barrel fully free floating? Nothing touching the barrel?

 

[Jackomason]

Update.

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. I made two changes.

First, I changed the B5 bravo out for the Magpul DT PR. I felt much more stable and the gun had a predictable recoil impulse straight back.

Second, I tried a couple more types of bullets. This is really where the issue was. This barrel is laughably picky but it likes 77gr SMKs so that's ok.

My calipers batteries are dead so I'll have to run to town and get some more but it looks to be shooting 1/2-3/4" (5/8" with a tape).

The 77gr American reloading blems were impressively bad but they don't seem to be AR bullets at all. And yes, that's 4x 5 shot groups...

This also gave me the opportunity to video myself from various angles. I'm happy with my fundamentals.

Again, thanks for all the responses.

 

[LuckyLuke80]

OP, I understand that you are handleloading, and also that you are planning on shooting some factory ammo. I don’t hand load for my 556, but in my accuracy tests with my carbine I found that I had much better results with “correct” ammo. So for my 556 it shot 556 ammo much tighter than 223 ammo.

 

[Makinchips208]

Its the barrel.
Replace it, or find a load it likes.

 

[Jackomason]

Its the barrel.
Replace it, or find a load it likes.

I have never seen a barrel go from 5.5" to 0.6"

I was about to order a new barrel but glad I tried the 77gr SMK. I'll run more through it before sending it off.

 

[Makinchips208]

I have never seen a barrel go from 5.5" to 0.6"

I was about to order a new barrel but glad I tried the 77gr SMK. I'll run more through it before sending it off.

With the same exact load? If so im sorry i didnt follow well enough.

 

[Jackomason]

With the same exact load? If so im sorry i didnt follow well enough.

No, different bullet. 69 smk vs 77 smk.

 

[Makinchips208]

No, different bullet. 69 smk vs 77 smk.

Ok. Ill share an example of how a junk barrel can vary from over 9 moa down to 1 moa. Its a 16” elcheapo chrome lined gov profile.
Varies from bad to worse with all factory ammo i tried. Its a piece of junk, and i now treat it as such.

5 shots at 100 yards

Yugoslavian 55gr fmj
Larger than 9 moa
(Couldnt find that picture. Sorry)


Factory PMC xm193 55gr fmj
7 moa

Factory PMC bronze 55gr fmj
2.5 moa.

Factory hornady 55gr hollow point match.
About 2.5 moa.

And 55gr vmax hand loads, zero load workup, just loaded with ARComp powder and shot it.
About 1moa. And ive repeated this group with the same results.

Regardless, i hope you get yours shooting how you want it to.

 

[BurtG]

Semis are a different animal to shoot versus a bolt. The bullet takes longer to leave the barrel after the trigger breaks and this amplifies any fundamental deficiencies

The online training here is really good. Highly recommend that and dry firing.

 

[Jackomason]

Ok. Ill share an example of how a junk barrel can vary from over 9 moa down to 1 moa. Its a 16” elcheapo chrome lined gov profile.
Varies from bad to worse with all factory ammo i tried. Its a piece of junk, and i now treat it as such.

5 shots at 100 yards

Yugoslavian 55gr fmj
Larger than 9 moa
(Couldnt find that picture. Sorry)


Factory PMC xm193 55gr fmj
7 moa
View attachment 8647159

Factory PMC bronze 55gr fmj
2.5 moa.
View attachment 8647139

Factory hornady 55gr hollow point match.
About 2.5 moa.
View attachment 8647138

And 55gr vmax hand loads, zero load workup, just loaded with ARComp powder and shot it.
About 1moa. And ive repeated this group with the same results.
View attachment 8647137



Regardless, i hope you get yours shooting how you want it to.

That's wild. I think we can all agree that in general a decent barrel with good bullets, good brass, and a consistent powder charge should shoot 1 MOA or under. Again, I'm not familiar with gas guns but that seems reasonable. All I was hoping for was 1.25".

Semis are a different animal to shoot versus a bolt.

I hear this a lot. And it's was what made me think I was doing something wrong to begin with. But I didn't have a base line to compare it to.

how much can a small frame really exploit a shooters weakness?

 

[BurtG]

how much can a small frame really exploit a shooters weakness

Enough.

I read the rest after posting glad you got it figured. Amazing how picky some stuff is

 

[mudholestomper]

I had a rock river LAR 8 308 I loaded for a while back. Obviously a 308 vs 556 here. But used small base rcbs dies with no crimp. The bolt slamming forward would work like a bullet puller and the bullet would slide forward .005-.010” when the round loaded

In this case there’s many things it can be. Obviously checking equipment like rings etc are first. Then ammo combo.

That stringing would lead me believe the gun wants to shoot well but equipment or fundamentals are holding it back

I’ve shot plenty of bolt guns and have shot a few tiny groups back when I was big into hunting and couldn’t explain what I did to accomplish that.

My point is that tiny groups with a bolt gun aren’t nearly as impressive or difficult as they’re made out to be if you consider yourself a serious shooter.

Because of that, the bolt gun is the best tool for the job.

Now that I know what I’m doing (mostly), and I’m taking long range shooting much more seriously, I don’t even have a bolt gun in my safe (long story), so I’m forced to learn on an ar15 or ar10.

It’s been humbling, and it’s forced me to really buckle down and focus and learn what makes a good shooter. And I’m getting pretty good with a gas gun.

Next time I pick up a bolt gun, it’s going to be child’s play to shoot well. Just keep shooting. That’s what I did. And I backed down to 50 yards and honed my skills and my familiarity with the equipment and optics. Then I stretched it out.

The other thing that really helped was to pick very small targets. I started with the 2” shootnsee pasters, then switched to the repair stickers that come with shootnsee targets. I believe they’re 13/16”.

Enjoy the process! That’s why we do it, right? Because it’s not easy and everyone can’t do it!

 

[mudholestomper]

Your first pic shows predominantly vertical errors in the group. That is breathing control and poor check weld.

Your second pic shows more horizontal error which is trigger control and body/target index error(not straight behind the rifle).

As mentioned above, the bipod is a too high and collapsible stocks are a bit loose and these will just plain open a group up.

So, add a check riser and some tape to make the stock tighter and fit you or get that PRS you mentioned. (I prefer the UBR, a little less stable but it adapts to more different positions). Get yourself straight behind the rifle. Frank has an old video here somewhere that he demonstrates this using a pencil analogy. Imagine two pencils inline lying on a desk and you have to push the second one forward by only holding the first. If they are not inline the second slides at a tangent, like the bullets. Also, draw that trigger straight back and follow through (hold it.) Semi auto exploits poor NPOA (natural point of aim) more as the internal ballistics take more time.

Boy howdy that last sentence is so true. I have to be comfortably lined up behind my rifle for it to shoot consistent groups. Especially the 308.

The less inherent tension in my body position, the more consistent I am with my groups/shooting.

 

[CowboyBart]

Glad to see I'm not the only one. I can shoot a bolt just fine, an AR = if I'm under 1.5" I'm ecstatic!! I can hand my AR and my load to a buddy and he can shoot .7" with it .

 

[mudholestomper]

I’ve been shooting my 556 gas guns lately and feeling all smug and printing small groups.

Took the ar10 out today and tried 3 different types of ammo. Printed everything from “not terrible” to “definitely terrible” to “I hope nobody noticed” sized groups.

I left frustrated, although the gun ran perfectly with the two new Lancer 10 rounders I just bought.

That rifle confounds me. Sometimes I’m good with it. Sometimes I’m bad with it. I’m pretty confident it’s me, but I’m just not sure since I don’t struggle with other gas guns.

When I’m on, I can, without struggle, put rounds in a 2” circle. With that gun, shooting well is a skill that deteriorates without regular practice.

 

[LuckyLuke80]

I’ve been shooting my 556 gas guns lately and feeling all smug and printing small groups.

Took the ar10 out today and tried 3 different types of ammo. Printed everything from “not terrible” to “definitely terrible” to “I hope nobody noticed” sized groups.

I left frustrated, although the gun ran perfectly with the two new Lancer 10 rounders I just bought.

That rifle confounds me. Sometimes I’m good with it. Sometimes I’m bad with it. I’m pretty confident it’s me, but I’m just not sure since I don’t struggle with other gas guns.

When I’m on, I can, without struggle, put rounds in a 2” circle. With that gun, shooting well is a skill that deteriorates without regular practice.

If you get a membership you can go on and watch the videos by lowlight. He’s got some awesome pointers about running a gas gun. I learned a bunch just from that and it made me a better gas gunner. I hear what you’re saying. Some days I love my ar10 and other days I ain’t sure about it.

 

[camotoe]

https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/ar-accurizing.4149192/page-6

 

[Ex E6]

That's wild. I think we can all agree that in general a decent barrel with good bullets, good brass, and a consistent powder charge should shoot 1 MOA or under. Again, I'm not familiar with gas guns but that seems reasonable. All I was hoping for was 1.25".


I hear this a lot. And it's was what made me think I was doing something wrong to begin with. But I didn't have a base line to compare it to.

how much can a small frame really exploit a shooters weakness?

A build isn't precision . Sometimes precision components when stacked = Do Doo . Trust ME I know all too well . I've cobbled over a dozen AR'S .

Then an off the assembly line rack simply blows your socks off with it's accuracy . I've found One way to determine if a firearm is capable or not , Shorten the distance of impact in half and see where your best group ends up . IF they fail to group tighter ,YOU now know it's the Barrel . Guess work over .

What you see is #5 crap Winchester white box vertical string upper left quadrant and #15 bulk .55 gr. with 25.5 gr. BLC-2 stuffed into 1990 LC cases ,MY 1994 handloads at 200 yd. using an Older AETEC 2.5 or 2.8X10X44mm scope on a Stock 1990's BushMaster XM 15 A2 20" .
Also a 6.5 CM I cobbled together using Aero Precision platform ,which has now become MY New Hunting Rifle . #20 129 gr. hunting loads all shots into .404" . at 278 yd. in wind . That Rifle is a laser ,as seen in powder evaluation testing results . My Aero Precision M4 with Ballistics 20" HATES Varget ,but likes VV powder and BLC-2 and IMR 4064 ( Haven't run IMR 4895 as yet for accuracy test ) .
FYI : Shooting in the wind here is simply a matter of firing a fouler with POA calculated to POI and Repeating . Idaho has WIND Most of the time ,so rarely do I get a calm day . Yet the Wind is pretty consistent so impacts follow one another ( Hopefully most of the time ) .

Try different powders stay with 69 gr.-77 gr. bullets shorten your distance and find what works in YOUR RIFLE ,then stretch it out .

 

[LuckyLuke80]

I don’t see how cutting the shooting distance in half tells the shooter that it is definitely the barrel. If the fundamentals are bad then shooting at half the distance won’t change that fact. I’d say it will just be a smaller piece of evidence that SOMETHING is wrong, but it will take good sound fundamentals and some methodical testing to determine if it’s the barrel. That is my experience anyways. Did extensive shooting with my ar10. Swapped the scope, tried lots of ammo, tried various ways with my rear bag and with my front support. Nothing made it shoot better. I then swapped the barrel out for a heavy profile barrel and BOOM it’s about a 1.5 moa gun with my abilities. It may be able to do better, but 1.5 for a 15 round group is about what it does for me.

 

[Ex E6]

I don’t see how cutting the shooting distance in half tells the shooter that it is definitely the barrel. If the fundamentals are bad then shooting at half the distance won’t change that fact. I’d say it will just be a smaller piece of evidence that SOMETHING is wrong, but it will take good sound fundamentals and some methodical testing to determine if it’s the barrel. That is my experience anyways. Did extensive shooting with my ar10. Swapped the scope, tried lots of ammo, tried various ways with my rear bag and with my front support. Nothing made it shoot better. I then swapped the barrel out for a heavy profile barrel and BOOM it’s about a 1.5 moa gun with my abilities. It may be able to do better, but 1.5 for a 15 round group is about what it does for me.

Fundamentals are the backbone of shooting . Shortening the distance lessens operator error and one should be able to tell with #15 rounds of #5 each loads ,whether it's Barrel or Trigger person .

Example ; When I evaluate powder I look for Velocity ,generally with a particular bullet weight . I then load #5 middle of upper end charge listings ,#5 lower end and #5 Middle . Example : Max charge is 40.0 grain . .38 gr. , 39 gr. and 39.7 gr. .
Depending where POI and POA ends up I'll favor tightest grouping ,then adjust other parameters as best I can .

By doing shooting closer it dials one in quicker and your shots should be under .500" at 50 yd. ,for a 1.0 MOA .
When all is said and done and loads prove they can stretch ,it's up too the shooter .

I bought a .44 Ruger Blackhawk way way way back when they came out . I bent over every which way ,loaded every known load ; Only to be utterly disappointed . I finally took that pistol to a mutual friend who happened to be a Pistol champion marksman and side line gun smith . We took it out ,John shot a total of #15 rounds ,turned to Me shook his head and said ; SEND IT BACK !.
Ruger replaced the barrel after considerable bickering . It shot OK afterwards but John believed it might have been a faulty receiver threading ,as it wasn't quite right .

I took his pistol and ate the X ring out of two targets at 25 yd. . Wasn't the shooter it was the damn gun . So his Trick #5 middle ,#5 Lower and #5 upper ,why waste time . IF neither of those do it chances are NO loads will . IF one doesn't reload ,# 3 Different brands of GOOD QUALITY AMMO ,will determine IF you have a potential sub MOA gun or not . Ruger Red Hawk W/ 2X20 older Simmons scope ,1955 Remington 722 in triple deuce . MY pistol range 0-75 Yd. ,My Rifle range *165 yd., *278 yd. , *340 Yd. ,*635 Yd. , 1044 & 1170 yd with Steel targets *target sheds at various odd ball yardages because of terrain .

 

[LuckyLuke80]

Yes, so that answers my point. Only a good shooter with solid fundamentals is going to be able to determine if a barrel is bad. This is based on the fact that we use angular measurements. If a shooter can shoot .5” (inches are stupid) at 50 yards then he can shoot 1” (again, inches are stupid) as long as his fundamentals are good. So shortening the distance doesn’t change anything as far as rifle shooting goes. I can kind of see the point if shooting a pistol with no stabilization.

 

[912173]

I read a bunch of service rifle stuff on the cmp forum when I was troubleshooting my first precision AR. It is a different discipline but it gives some perspective on what is really important and what isn't. With ammo for instance, most of them seem to just put 24gr of varget behind a 77 smk and the rest is on the shooter. It really is interesting reading.

 

[diggler1833]

. #20 129 gr. hunting loads all shots into .404" . at 278 yd. in wind .

Ah yes, the famous 20 shots in high winds that is about 40% smaller than the benchrest record...WITH an AR no less.

We will back that up now with equally impressive shooting at 165 yards with a .44 magnum handgun. You Sir, are officially "legendary" now!

Sir...I guess I need to hire you to teach me how to shoot. I'll even pay your travel and provide lodging on top of it... provided I get to record your shooting and post it on YouTube. I know as an honorary ex swat member because of your proficiency in marksmanship and load development* - you Sir, have something to teach me.

I have a 170 yard fence we can hang targets from, and a 262 yard target as well. Shouldn't be difficult for you at all.

*For the others wondering what I'm referencing, starting on post 4,148 on page 83 of the 6.5 Creedmoor load thread, and going for the next page or so...we found our champion.

As for now, I eagerly await your response with further examples of "legendary" accuracy...

 

[Ex E6]

View attachment 8692212


Ah yes, the famous 20 shots in high winds that is about 40% smaller than the benchrest record...WITH an AR no less.

We will back that up now with equally impressive shooting at 165 yards with a .44 magnum handgun. You Sir, are officially "legendary" now!

Sir...I guess I need to hire you to teach me how to shoot. I'll even pay your travel and provide lodging on top of it... provided I get to record your shooting and post it on YouTube. I know as an honorary ex swat member because of your proficiency in marksmanship and load development* - you Sir, have something to teach me.

I have a 170 yard fence we can hang targets from, and a 262 yard target as well. Shouldn't be difficult for you at all.

*For the others wondering what I'm referencing, starting on post 4,148 on page 83 of the 6.5 Creedmoor load thread, and going for the next page or so...we found our champion.

As for now, I eagerly await your response with further examples of "legendary" accuracy...

View attachment 8692236

18-21 Mph ISN'T hi wind ,that's a typical breeze where I reside . That's a little under 0.300" Per 100 yd. X 6 .
The Rifle which did this Shoots 0.100" at a 100 Yd. . So do the math at 165 Yd. NO comparison . Stick with hog farming .

 

[JR1200W3]

Update.

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. I made two changes.

First, I changed the B5 bravo out for the Magpul DT PR. I felt much more stable and the gun had a predictable recoil impulse straight back. View attachment 8646693

Second, I tried a couple more types of bullets. This is really where the issue was. This barrel is laughably picky but it likes 77gr SMKs so that's ok.

View attachment 8646687
My calipers batteries are dead so I'll have to run to town and get some more but it looks to be shooting 1/2-3/4" (5/8" with a tape).

The 77gr American reloading blems were impressively bad but they don't seem to be AR bullets at all. And yes, that's 4x 5 shot groups...

This also gave me the opportunity to video myself from various angles. I'm happy with my fundamentals.

Again, thanks for all the responses.

I've had really good luck with 77SMKs and Hornady 75gr BTHPs. Specifically in a WOA 20". I tried RMR 75gr and 69gr and they shot like shit in multiple guns. And to be honest, the only other bullet Ive tried that shot well has been the 60gr VMAX and 55gr Hornady SP. I had a CLE built 16" upper with a Bartlein barrel and CLE chamber. It would only shoot the SMK. It didn't like the 75 BTHP. I have found the Wylde chamber to be more forgiving for multiple bullets. I've heard from others about the CLE chamber that matches my experience.

As far as shooting an AR well, I've found my shooting hand grip matters a lot. I give my bipod a neutral load. I use a very firm heavy fill bag. I apply heavy cheek pressure. And then I pay a lot of attention to shoulder pressure and grip. I give light but firm shoulder pressure, focusing on giving a consistent amount each shot. For grip I use a full wrap of fingers and thumb but I use a light grip. I definitely won't aim the rifle with my grip. I use the rear bag and bipod placement to aim the rifle. I focus on trigger finger pressure pulling straight back to the web of my thumb on the rear of the pistol grip. These are the two points of pressure on the pistol grip. Like a contracting and opposing clamp. My palm and remaining 4 fingers are just resting on the grip. They don't apply pressure. So I have the rifle supported on it's own devices between the bipod and rear bag. I control recoil with cheek pressure from the top, firm bag from the bottom, and my shoulder is the rearward stop. I don't want my shooting hand grip to change the dynamic by introducing any other pressure or load other than what's required to press the trigger and hold it to the rear. I get pretty good results with a small frame and large frame this way. I think this isolates a lot of positional variables from the pure idea of the rifle shooting out of a natural point of aim. It is essentially aimed true at the center of the dot/ target via the bipod and rear bag, and it's my job to simply backstop the recoil and move the trigger shoe from front to rear with the absolute minimum of additional, extraneous side, oblique, lateral pressures, especially from a point of gun that isn't the best place to aim the rifle.