Am I just trash with an AR?

[JR1200W3]

I agree that the shooting hand can play a big roll. I've decided that I like having complete control of the gun with the thumb wrapped around the grip. Three fingers pulling back into the grip/shoulder can pretty quickly turn into slipping and dangling on a grip with any kind of angle. But I'd still prefer to get that tension from my firing hand than my bipod.

Thanks for the insightful comment. I'd like to spend some time on a large frame to iron these things out.

You might consider that control comes from the support hand. In a variety of shooting disciplines and with mechanically different guns. When shooting a pistol you want a firm grip with the firing hand but a hard grip with the support hand. When shooting quickly at short range with an AR, you want more grip and pulling back into your shoulder with the support hand and again just a firm grip with the firing hand. These are for slightly different reasons, increase speed of the trigger finger, but it demonstrates that control doesn't come from the firing hand grip. When you're shooting a long gun, your firing hand grip is the 3rd and sometimes 4th point of contact. Your cheek, shoulder, and support hand(wether on the rear gripping a bag or on the foreend applying pressure on a bag on a barricade) are supporting the gun in it's NPOA. The firing hand should not support the gun. And on top of all that the ultimate goal isn't just to lay down and shoot tiny groups at 100, it's to shoot the same zero out of multiple positions. So are you going to maintain the same pressures with the firing hand grip off a barricade and a tripod, or off a bag? Probably not.

One parting shot. Here's what I'm shooting using the technique I described above with a 20" WOA. Might be worth at least trying.

 

[Makinchips208]

You might consider that control comes from the support hand. In a variety of shooting disciplines and with mechanically different guns. When shooting a pistol you want a firm grip with the firing hand but a hard grip with the support hand. When shooting quickly at short range with an AR, you want more grip and pulling back into your shoulder with the support hand and again just a firm grip with the firing hand. These are for slightly different reasons, increase speed of the trigger finger, but it demonstrates that control doesn't come from the firing hand grip. When you're shooting a long gun, your firing hand grip is the 3rd and sometimes 4th point of contact. Your cheek, shoulder, and support hand(wether on the rear gripping a bag or on the foreend applying pressure on a bag on a barricade) are supporting the gun in it's NPOA. The firing hand should not support the gun. And on top of all that the ultimate goal isn't just to lay down and shoot tiny groups at 100, it's to shoot the same zero out of multiple positions. So are you going to maintain the same pressures with the firing hand grip off a barricade and a tripod, or off a bag? Probably not.

One parting shot. Here's what I'm shooting using the technique I described above with a 20" WOA. Might be worth at least trying.


View attachment 8693714

Well said. And are those different positions for each group?

 

[JR1200W3]

Well said. And are those different positions for each group?

No, that's just a 6x5 in the prone. Here's a positional target

With 22 ARC

6.5CM out of an SP-10

 

[Ex E6]

We have another world record! .100” at 100 yards someone get this man sponsored! @diggler1833

Yo numb nuts , Wasn't MY Rifle or shooting ,that's simply the number associated with that particular 600 Yd. record .

Here's another to chew on ;
Mike Wilson's 1.068" #5 shot record at 1000 yd. using H4895 no less and IF one does the math =
0.102 minutes of angle . Fyi ; I don't own glass that sees that far ,hence WHY I stay generally between 165 - 635 yd. as the latter is MY last target shed and IF anyone bothered noticing , I haven't ever posted any of those targets . Wind at set speed and direction is predictable upon known velocity and drag ,provided one practices enough . The real problem is over distance wind fluctuates or changes direction based upon objects it encounters ( Hillside ,Canyon ,Ravine ,Bushes ,Boulders and Trees ) so knowing one's limitations is paramount . I've had 60+ years trigger time to learn and develop Mine

 

[Snipe260]

I'm having some real struggles with shooting groups. I'm slowly realizing that I just might be trash at shooting.

This is my first attempt at building and shooting a precision small frame AR. The plan was to get a barrel in and test it before sending it off to D.wilson to have it converted for the LMT MRP.

This is where it went sideways. The barrel shoots like crap. My first outing I had shot the 75gr RMRs in to a laughable 6" group (didn't measure). The 69gr SMK and N140 shot a lot better but still big.
View attachment 8641126

The second outing wasn't much better. I was testing a different load and was removing muzzle devices changing bolts etc.

The groups had a totally different shape with a lot of horizontal stringing.

After getting off the rifle, I shot Black #2. I noticed a POI shift and figured I'd change my bags out (ended up stacking a fortune cookie on my Wiebad rear bag (I don't like that bag, but it fit under the B5 sopmod stock)

View attachment 8641132

Do I just need to get a different stock? New rear bag? Is this barrel trash? Am I trash?

I know semi autos are a different animal but I'm not new to shooting precision rifles...

View attachment 8641138

Why yes! Yes you are!

 

[Makinchips208]

Fyi ; I don't own glass that sees that far

Bro, i got glass that can see all the way to the moon!

 

[Ex E6]

Bro, i got glass that can see all the way to the moon!

You be one lucky SOB, because the glasses which set upon MY Noggin are perhaps 200-300 yd. with NO real detail .
Now the optics which are mounted too MY Rifles are Great Quality , Zeiss , IOR , Leupold ,Meopta ,Nikon and Vortex , FFP & SFP
and for MY purposes generally run 2.5 X 10 , 3 X 15 4 X 16 ,5 X 27 and 50mm objective is the largest with 44 mm being most prevalent
. No matter how I try ,I can't see 1" dots on a target beyond 400 yd. . ( I've not as yet attempted that with My 5X27 Meopta ) .
The Zeiss ,IOR and Vortex allows ME to shoot fairly accurately out to 1170 yd. but NO way can I see impacts with any degree of accuracy . Even MY spotting scope is useless at that yardage . MY Rifles are basically set up for hunting and as I personally chose NOT to take animals beyond 500 yd. anymore , I'm OK with that

I imagine a lot of you are far younger than I am. Old School was 1X per 100 Yd. ,don't know if that still holds ? . Being nearer 80 than 70 has taken it's toll on ME over the last 6-8 years . MY Motto ,IF I CAN SEE IT ,I MORE THAN LIKELY CAN HIT IT , Seeing it has become somewhat problematic unfortunately

When I use Iron sights ,I can't see the target cross at 165 yd. ,I can see the plate but JUST BARELY . So I aim for what I'm guessing is center mass . Yet CAN'T see impacts . Evidence illustrated with paper plate target and My M1 Garand using MY handloads and 173 gr. bullets back in 2021 .
All #8 are there , what I was unaware of until I pulled the sights down was a stripped pinion . Since replaced and I now can elevate or lower POI . What I can still do is Aim and 3 point reference ( Triangulate Rifle sight too target ) while holding steady and squeezing the trigger . I'm confident MY rounds will be grouped as near as I can hold but actual POI ,is now somewhat of a Mystery ,until I pull the Target

 

[Jackomason]

You should probably try a Quigly Ford. A dude slinging some concrete once told me that they were the best.

 

[Ex E6]

You should probably try a Quigly Ford. A dude slinging some concrete once told me that they were the best.

I poked holes with a Buddy's Super Nightforce 5-25X56 ,I hit the targets but still unable to see bullet holes

 

[diggler1833]

You should probably try a Quigly Ford. A dude slinging some concrete once told me that they were the best.

I know I'm replying to an irrelevant post of yours, but I wanted to offer my .02 man (which is probably worthless).

** Short of an equipment issue:

We used to have - and still might have - a couple members on here who were legit distinguished marksman in the branches of service. Those dudes wake up and piss marksmanship fudamental excellence. If you can ever find one and somehow get to shoot with them for an afternoon or two of tutelage...you will improve your application of fundamentals to an AR...regardless of how good you were before. You might have to look hard, those guys are generally pretty humble.

It was my job many years ago to teach a touch of marksmanship. Between classes we occasionally had the opportunity to shoot as a small group on the range under the supervision of each other. Nothing improved my ability faster than having three other Prinary Marksmanship Instructors (PMI) analyzing every aspect of my position building and application of fundamentals. I got a little more coaching from the really good guys on the USMC team when I went and shot a few national, NRA, and interservice matches.

I was never good enough to be competitive with the USMC and USAMU team guys...but I was just good enough to get to compete with them.

What I'm trying to get at, is that regardless of what we're all suggesting... or unless you've identified an equipment failure...face-to-face training with a good instructor is going to improve you more than any of us spit-balling out our. 02 across the internet.

*****

And it frustrates me when some members post groups that shatter world records, and give advice when it is obvious to anyone else who has ever been around proficient shooters - that they have no clue about the ridiculousness of their claims. Guys that make that Overton Windex liar look like an amateur.

You shouldn't have to filter through bullshit to find real help.

Best of luck man.