And now even better!!!!!Garand experts help please

dakota_goon

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Original post below but had to add that the same neighbor has since given me a very nice Lee-Enfield No.1 MIII I believe it to be anyway. He has seen me going out shooting a number of times and figured I would enjoy these and it would get them out of his closet. Pictures below.
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Got this for helping out a neighbor. SA M1 Garand born on date July 1944 per the 2,9xx,xxx serial number. Did a field strip and everything marked is SA except the op-rod which is stamped NM and I know it is not a National Match rifle. I guess what I am looking for is if the gun is unmolested and just had the op-rod replaced at some point or is this just a parts rifle? Anyone know how I can tell? Thanks in advance for any help.
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pepperbelly

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Re: Garand experts need some help please

Almost all Garands went through an arsenal rebuild at some point. The national Match Op rod is a common replacement as it does not disqualify the rifle for Garand Match competitions.
What date is on the barrel itself? Lock the action back and look on the right side forward of the op rod. That date is usually the last time it went through an arsenal.
During the war the parts were cleaned in groups and no attempt was made to keep the parts together as a matching group. Your rifle may have been put together by someone trying to force match an all-matching rifle.
Where did your friend buy the rifle, and when?

Jim
 

M25BeastShooter

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Re: Garand experts need some help please

It was common during the 50's and 60's to replace parts and rebuild rifles with the remaining parts stock that were on hand. This being the case many standard rifles can be found with NM parts such as op rods
 

oneshot onekill

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Re: Garand experts need some help please

While it's nice to think you could still find an un-molested WWII Garand the fact is that ALL Garands that came back from WWII through normal channels were at least dis-assembled, inspected and put back together with mismatching parts. The best you can hope for is that the barrel and receiver have never been seperated. The finish on yours looks great and original. Now check the TE and go shoot the hell out of it!
 

xarmor

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Re: Garand experts need some help please

Looks pretty unmolested to me. It looks to have the original finish, and original stock for sure. The barrel should have a date on it, this will let you know if is orig to the rifle. Each part will have part number with a rev #, if you post these it will help determine originality. I believe your rifle should have a type 2 lockbar rear sight and it doesn't. As stated in the post above, most rifles have been rebuilt or repaired at sometime in their life. These rifles have been around for 65+ years and a bunch of young, non-collector type GI's have had their dick skinners on them over the years. I remember when we were cleaning .45's in the Army we just dropped all of ouur parts into a solvent tank. I never remember once hearing "hey my barrel doesn't match this Remington slide," we just put em together and tried to get it back into the arms room. Overall looks like a nice rifle, post the pn's and there are people here that can help.
 

samnev

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    Re: Garand experts need some help please

    The fact that except for the op rod it has all SA marked parts is a good indication that it's not a mix master unless someone has taken the time to aquire al SA parts. As mentioned almost all Garands have gone through rebuilds at some time and it is very common to have different manufacturer's parts in the same rifle. The most important match to me would be the rifle date on the barrel being of the same date range as the serial # indicates.
     

    trobertson5-0

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    Re: Garand experts need some help please

    On a 2.9 million Garand your parts #s should be:

    Barrel SA 4 or 5 of 1944
    Bolt -19 SA
    Oprod -9 curved side
    Trigger housing -14 SA
    Hammer -5 SA
    Safety SA-11
    Follower -12
    Sights could be type 2 or 3 lockbar,it was built right at the switchover

    Stock should be a SA/GAW(and is worth about $400 by itself).

    All the parts will have parts numbers before the revision numbers I posted but look for the numbers after the -. It looks to me like an original barrel/receiver combo with parts added during a rebuild. TJR
     

    dakota_goon

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    Re: Garand experts need some help please

    Thanks for all the help. Barrel has: SA 6535448 10 65 MD46 P M
    My neighbor was given the rifle by his dad. Originally it was used by his dad up in Alaska and he has no idea how it was acquired. Is there a list of Revision #'s and what dates they correspond to? Also, ordered in a case of Winchester white box '06 but can't find a go-no go gauge for sale anywhere. Who would have those in stock?
     

    Prairie Dog Dundee

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    Re: Garand experts need some help please

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dakota2goon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for all the help. Barrel has: SA 6535448 10 65 MD46 P M
    My neighbor was given the rifle by his dad. Originally it was used by his dad up in Alaska and he has no idea how it was acquired. Is there a list of Revision #'s and what dates they correspond to? Also, ordered in a case of Winchester white box '06 but can't find a go-no go gauge for sale anywhere. Who would have those in stock? </div></div>

    I would advise him not to shoot the white box Winchester. Garands are more sensitive to pressure curves than most gas guns. Check out CMP for the correct ammo. You have to jump through a few hoops and wait awhile but it is good ammo and reloadable. http://www.thecmp.org/ammosales.htm

    Many of the modern loadings for 30-06 can damage the op rod and they are expensive.
     

    sotexhill

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    Re: Garand experts need some help please

    The barrel dated 10 65 (October 1965) indicates at least a partial rebuild after October 1965 for sure. The rear sight is the post WW II rear sight. Post World War II rebuilds typically got the post WW II rear sight because it was better than the "lock bar" sight.

    Have fun shooting it.
     

    sotexhill

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    Re: Garand experts need some help please

    In case you are not familiar with it, the stock cartouche (acceptance stamp) on the left side of the stock above the trigger guard is is "SA" over "GAW". Originally, they were in a box. It looks like the top and bottom of the box have been sanded off, or perhaps the stamp was not applied in a manner which had the entire box applied.

    According to Scott Duff's book, <span style="text-decoration: underline">The M1 Garand: World War II</span>, SA stands for Springfield Armory and GAW stands for Colonel George A. Woody. Col. Woody was the commanding Officer at Springfield Armory from August 1, 1943 until his death August 4, 1944. There is also a faint crossed cannons stamp just behind the SA/GAW stamp. There should also be a P in a circle on the pistol grip. The P in a circle is the proof mark. There may also be a small (3/16) inch crossed cannon stamp on the bottom of the pistol grip.
     

    dakota_goon

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    Re: Garand experts need some help please

    Yes to all. The crossed cannons on the bottom of the pistol grip and the "P" in the circle. Although faint the SA/GAW stamp and crossed cannons are on the side of the stock just above the trigger. Is there any way to tell if the stock is correct to the time from of the serial number on the action? Thanks again for all the help. I'm learning a lot and have a whole new appreciation for these old rifles.
     

    sotexhill

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    Re: Garand experts need some help please

    The SA/GAW stock is appropriate to the serial number of your M1. Both are from the time of Col. Woody. According to Scott Duff, the GAW stock stamp was used until late Fall, 1944.

    The Enfield was a good rifle. But, you might consider putting it in a separate thread in the bolt action section, or find an Enfield Forum. The old rifles are specialized fields of study. Gas gun people might, but are not as likely to have info on the Enfield.
     

    pepperbelly

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    Re: Garand experts need some help please

    Buy some Greek HXP surplus ammo from the CMP. It is more accurate than the LC surplus- which is de-linked mg ammo.
    It is either $96.00 for 192 rounds on enbloc clips in a sealed spam can or $120.00 for 240 rounds in boxes in a sealed spam can.

    If you want to shoot more than just a box or 2 the surplus is the way to go.
    There are several forums that have a lot of info on the Garand rifle. There are some clips that have problems, and some surplus ammo that is corrosive.
    You should also be careful if you shoot commercial ammo. The pressure curve on the hunting ammo isn't correct for a Garand and may bend the op-rod. If you do want to shoot hunting ammo with heavy bullets you can buy an adjustable gas plug to avoid that damage.
    PM or email me if you want more info. I don't like to link to another forums while on one.

    Jim
     

    Greg Langelius *

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    Re: Garand experts need some help please

    I do my own handloads with 150/155gr FMJBT or HPBT match bullets, Win WLR Primers, Win brass, and 50.0gr of IMR4064. 3.340" Max OAL, and take care to ensure the primers are seated flush.

    <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Never, never, never, ever, ever, ever hand chamber a round and allow the bolt to slam home freely.</span></span>

    That is a formula for a slam-fire. IMHO, it isn't ammo that causes slam-fires, it's mishandling like I just described.

    Greg
     

    pepperbelly

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    Re: Garand experts need some help please

    What causes most slamfires is the floating firing pin and soft primers.
    Do NOT use Federal primers in a semi-auto.

    Jim
     

    Greg Langelius *

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    Re: Garand experts need some help please

    Hey, maybe you're right. I learned that from my DI. What the hell would they know, eh?
     

    pepperbelly

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    Re: Garand experts need some help please

    Greg, I would never try to dispute a DI. The warning you gave is correct but there are other forces in play especially with handloads
    Federal primers are relatively soft. They are more susceptible to slamfire. High primers are too. When the bolt slams into battery the floating firing pin protrudes slightly. Another problem is surplus rifles with old cosmoline and crud in the bolt causing the firing pin to become stuck. I have found several instances of those problems helping people solve slam fires. Shooting a Garand prone without using the sling will cause bump firing. It's more controllable than slam fires but still unexpected and a potential safety problem.

    Jim
     

    9H_Cracka

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    Re: Garand experts need some help please

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pepperbelly</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Almost all Garands went through an arsenal rebuild at some point. The national Match Op rod is a common replacement as it does not disqualify the rifle for Garand Match competitions.
    </div></div>

    Yep, per the 2010 CMP games rulebook:

    6.3.2 As-Issued M1 Garand
    The rifl e must be a Caliber .30 U. S. M1 Garand rifl e that was issued by the
    U.S. Armed Forces and be in as-issued condition. A Caliber .30 M1941 Johnson
    rifl e or a U.S. Carbine Caliber .30 M1 may be fi red in matches designated
    for M1 Garand rifl es.
    (1) These rifl es must be as issued by the U.S. Armed Forces, with standard
    stock and sights.
    (2) Trigger pulls may not be less than 4.5 pounds, except that the M1941
    Johnson may have a trigger pull of not less than 3.5 pounds.
    (3) “NM” rifl es, or rifl es with NM parts, including NM sights, may not be used
    in the rifl e, except that NM operating rods may be used.
    (4) The use of shims made of any material is prohibited. The presence of
    fi berglass, epoxy, glue or any other fi ller is prohibited. Laminated stocks
    and stocks made of synthetic materials are prohibited.
    (5) As-issued M1 Garands must be chambered for the .30-06 cartridge. No
    rifl es chambered for the 7.62mm NATO (.308) cartridge may be used."

    Also, your SMLE qualifies as an as-issued Foreign Service Rifle for Games purposes:

    6.3.1 As-Issued Military Rifl e Requirements
    The following rules apply to all as-issued U. S. and foreign military rifl es unless
    specifi c exceptions are noted in the rules:
    (1) All as-issued military rifl es must be rifl es that were commonly issued to
    U. S. Armed Forces or to foreign military personnel.
    (2) The rifl e must be in as-issued condition, with a standard stock and sights.
    (3) The rifl e must conform to the weight and dimensional specifi cations of the
    standard-issue service rifl e. Weights, including bayonets, may not be attached
    or added to the rifl e, but issue oilers or cleaning kits may be placed
    in the stock.
    (4) Commercial or replica versions of as-issued military rifl es are not permitted.
    (5) Rebarreling with a barrel of as-issued dimensions is permitted. A replacement
    barrel must have the same exact contours and cuts as the original
    as-issued barrel.
    (6) Only government-issue parts or government or commercial parts of the
    exact same weight and dimensions may be used.
    (7) Sights must be of the same types that were on rifl es issued to regular
    military personnel. Special purpose sights designed for sniping or competition
    are not permitted.
    (8) Rifl es may be accurized only by the careful assembly of standard parts.
    (9) The use of fl ash suppressors, cheek pads, recoil pads, or stock extensions
    are prohibited.
    6.3.6 As-Issued Foreign Military Rifl e
    The rifl e must be a rifl e that was issued by the Armed Forces of a country other
    than the U. S. and be in as-issued condition. All as-issued foreign military rifl es
    must be manually operated bolt-action or straight-pull rifl es. Semi-automatic
    or fully automatic rifl es are not permitted.
    (1) These fi rearms must be as issued by the foreign government, with a standard
    stock and sights.
    (2) Trigger pulls may not be less than 3.5 pounds.
    (3) Rifl es must conform to the weight and dimension specifi cations of the
    standard issue service rifl e. Weights may not be added to the rifl e.
    (4) Only Government Issue parts or commercial parts of the exact same
    weight and dimensions may be used.
    (5) Sights must be of the same types that were on rifl es issued to regular
    military personnel. Special purpose sights designed for sniping or target
    practice are not permitted.
    (6) Rifl es that were issued with sharp-edged, inverted V (“barleycorn”) front
    sights may be retrofi tted with fl at-topped post front sights of military type.
    Retrofi tted front sights may not have copper bead or colored aiming elements.
    Retrofi tted front sights may not be wider than 0.100”.
    (7) Rifl es that were issued with side-mounted front sling swivels may be retrofi
    tted with sling swivels of military type (not quick detachable) that are
    positioned in the 6 o’clock location, relative to its original sling swivel location
    (may not be moved forward or rearward from that point). If the issue
    swivel was narrower than 1 1/4” the retrofi t swivel may be 1 ¼”. The
    as-issued sling may be replaced with a standard U. S. military sling (Rule
    6.9.1).
    (8) Rifl es may be accurized only by the careful assembly of standard parts.
    (9) Rebarreling with a barrel of as-issued dimensions is permitted.
    (10) Shims made of wood, fabric, paper, metal or other similar material, of
    types that were originally installed by military arsenals in these rifl es and
    that are placed between the stock and the action, barrel or trigger assembly
    are permitted. No other modifi cations or alterations of the “as-issued”
    rifl e such as the use of glass or epoxy bedding in any location are permitted.
    The use of synthetic or laminated stocks is not permitted unless such
    stocks are original Government Issue stocks.
    (11) All as-issued rifl es must be chambered for the cartridge for which they
    were originally chambered
     

    9H_Cracka

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    Re: Garand experts need some help please

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oneshot onekill</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While it's nice to think you could still find an un-molested WWII Garand the fact is that ALL Garands that came back from WWII through normal channels were at least dis-assembled, inspected and put back together with mismatching parts. The best you can hope for is that the barrel and receiver have never been seperated. The finish on yours looks great and original. Now check the TE and go shoot the hell out of it! </div></div>

    Many of us has specimens in our safes that contradict your statements. While there are lower numbers of as-built rifles versus mixmasters, many do exist.
     

    Greg Langelius *

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    Re: Garand experts need some help please

    My Garand has a pre-war SA receiver serial number and a Winchester barrel with an early 1950's date. The Parkerizing appears untouched, which suggests it was subjected to an arsenal rebuild. Despite all this, I consider it 'original' because it's had no operating parts replacements since I got it from Uncle Sugar back in the early 1990's. Silly me, sights and a blocked-up buttpad, glassbedded and refinished wood, and here I go, calling it an 'original'.

    The slamfire issues you enumerate are all quite plausible, and I have no doubt they are backed up by solid evidence. I just wanted to emphasize that any feeding method that bypasses stripping the round from a clip defeats the bolt decelleration process that is part of the design principles. It permits bolts to exceed safe velocities, allowing the floating firing pins to initiate primers precisely as you describe.

    Greg
     

    pepperbelly

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    Re: Garand experts need some help please

    Greg does that do anything other than cause slamfires? I know dropping a round in the throat of a 1911 and dropping the slide can break the extractor.
    The reason I ask is that when I shoot a Garand match, in the slow-fire standing stage the rules say to single load. I only shoot HXP ammo and haven't had a problem yet.
    I am not trying to be argumentative and I apologize if I sound like I am. What reason did your DI give for not doing that? Was it just to avoid slamfires?

    Jim
     

    Greg Langelius *

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    Re: Garand experts need some help please

    To the best of my knowledge, slamfires are it, and that's why the DI cautioned us. In early 1966, we were trained on the M-14 in Boot, and the M-1 in ITR (mainly because they were supplied to ARVN's and we were intended to be ready to pick one up and use it). Employed according to its intended manner, the Garand is a rugged and reliable main battle rifle. We were taught various strategies to load the Garand using less than 8 cartridges in a clip. Any number between two and five can be managed using the 'crossed cartridge' technique.

    And thanks for the heads-up regarding the 1911 extractors.

    For Offhand Slow Fire single-feed, and Prone Slow Fire single-feed, it is advisable to employ a S.L.E.D. device (Single Loading Enhancement Device). They are a modified from a standard enbloc clip, made in such a way that they do not eject after the single round. The single round is fed into the S.L.E.D. from the top, then the bolt is released to ride home, stripping the round in the designed manner. Garand Service Rifle Shooters can steer you in the right direction to find one.

    Believe me, I welcome the dialogue. The more folks see and hear, the more they have on their side when they make a decision. Such exchanges permit them to see issues from more than a single angle.

    Greg