I've been thinking about trying to anneal some cases with a torch and I saw on a recent thread a couple of comments that almost compared dunking hot cases to sex with one's own sister. Most everything else I have seen recommends dropping the cases in water to stop the process. What is the consensus? Thanks...
annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
- Thread starter judgedelta
- Start date
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
I drop mine in water. A friend drops his on a towel. We both get the same results. Dropping them in water simply satiates my OCD. I expect some will chime in here and inform you that if you simply drop them there is no way that they can build enough heat for a long enough duration to hurt the body of the brass.
I drop mine in water. A friend drops his on a towel. We both get the same results. Dropping them in water simply satiates my OCD. I expect some will chime in here and inform you that if you simply drop them there is no way that they can build enough heat for a long enough duration to hurt the body of the brass.
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
I started off dunking mine in water but after a few times I just let them fall into a tub and keep moving. I got tired of the drying game and the hassle of the water. Every annealing machine that I have seen does not use water so why should I.
I started off dunking mine in water but after a few times I just let them fall into a tub and keep moving. I got tired of the drying game and the hassle of the water. Every annealing machine that I have seen does not use water so why should I.
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
No water here. As VS says, the companies who make annealing machines don't recommend it. They DO, however, recommend tempilaq (IIRRC 675 degree for neck/shoulder and 400 for head).
The case must be spun as it's heated but I'm sure you know that. You can buy a kit made by Hornady or make homemade case holders. Use the search function here to see how some guys did it.
No water here. As VS says, the companies who make annealing machines don't recommend it. They DO, however, recommend tempilaq (IIRRC 675 degree for neck/shoulder and 400 for head).
The case must be spun as it's heated but I'm sure you know that. You can buy a kit made by Hornady or make homemade case holders. Use the search function here to see how some guys did it.
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
I havent annealed brass, but I have with steal, and rapidly cooling metal causes it to temper, not anneal. To get it to cool soft, you need to let it air cool.
I havent annealed brass, but I have with steal, and rapidly cooling metal causes it to temper, not anneal. To get it to cool soft, you need to let it air cool.
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
"and rapidly cooling metal causes it to temper,"
Only if it is ferrous metal. Brass only hrdens through working.
"and rapidly cooling metal causes it to temper,"
Only if it is ferrous metal. Brass only hrdens through working.
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
I dump mine in a cardboard box with a small fan blowing on them. The fan just helps them cool faster as the mass of heat can take some time to cool.
I dump mine in a cardboard box with a small fan blowing on them. The fan just helps them cool faster as the mass of heat can take some time to cool.
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> but it's a hassle to dry them afterwards. </div></div>
Yeah, turning them upside down in a loading block and leaving them overnight, or out in the hot sunlight for a few hours, is just such a bitch........
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> but it's a hassle to dry them afterwards. </div></div>
Yeah, turning them upside down in a loading block and leaving them overnight, or out in the hot sunlight for a few hours, is just such a bitch........
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: desertrat1979</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">I havent annealed brass,</span> but I have with steal, and rapidly cooling metal causes it to temper, not anneal. To get it to cool soft, you need to let it air cool. </div></div>
Then you shouldn't be commenting on annealing brass.....just sayin'.
And it's spelled "steel", not "steal"..........
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: desertrat1979</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">I havent annealed brass,</span> but I have with steal, and rapidly cooling metal causes it to temper, not anneal. To get it to cool soft, you need to let it air cool. </div></div>
Then you shouldn't be commenting on annealing brass.....just sayin'.
And it's spelled "steel", not "steal"..........
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
So metallic properties in brass are diffrent. Got that. So it is ok to quench the brass?
So metallic properties in brass are diffrent. Got that. So it is ok to quench the brass?
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
I would say it is ok to quench, but it will probably shorten the life of your brass 1-2 firings compared to slow cooling. When you quench metal it makes it harder than air cooled, but it also makes it more brittle. I can go into the heat treating aspects, annealling temperatures, grain structure, residual stresses, etc. but it's really reaaaaally boring for most.
I would say it is ok to quench, but it will probably shorten the life of your brass 1-2 firings compared to slow cooling. When you quench metal it makes it harder than air cooled, but it also makes it more brittle. I can go into the heat treating aspects, annealling temperatures, grain structure, residual stresses, etc. but it's really reaaaaally boring for most.
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: halcyon575</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would say it is ok to quench, but it will probably shorten the life of your brass 1-2 firings compared to slow cooling. When you quench metal it makes it harder than air cooled, but it also makes it more brittle. I can go into the heat treating aspects, annealling temperatures, grain structure, residual stresses, etc. but it's really reaaaaally boring for most.
</div></div>
And anyone who can even remotely read english and drive a PC at the same time can find every bit of that info online.
Been water quenching brass for decades, haven't ever seen my brass turn brittle from it.
WORK hardens brass, heat softens it....brittle is a function of hard, quenching brass is not working it......if you are some sort of heat treat expert then you would know that.
If there is some minute reversal of the annealing process by a water quench it's to an insignificant and irrelevent degree as it concerns the reloader. Since I've been known to anneal some chamberings after every firing, and with a water quench, and see necks and shoulders outlast primer pockets, which is the polar opposite of not annealing, I'll call bullshit on a lot of what's touted as "fact" by the internet experts.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: halcyon575</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would say it is ok to quench, but it will probably shorten the life of your brass 1-2 firings compared to slow cooling. When you quench metal it makes it harder than air cooled, but it also makes it more brittle. I can go into the heat treating aspects, annealling temperatures, grain structure, residual stresses, etc. but it's really reaaaaally boring for most.
</div></div>
And anyone who can even remotely read english and drive a PC at the same time can find every bit of that info online.
Been water quenching brass for decades, haven't ever seen my brass turn brittle from it.
WORK hardens brass, heat softens it....brittle is a function of hard, quenching brass is not working it......if you are some sort of heat treat expert then you would know that.
If there is some minute reversal of the annealing process by a water quench it's to an insignificant and irrelevent degree as it concerns the reloader. Since I've been known to anneal some chamberings after every firing, and with a water quench, and see necks and shoulders outlast primer pockets, which is the polar opposite of not annealing, I'll call bullshit on a lot of what's touted as "fact" by the internet experts.
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: halcyon575</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would say it is ok to quench, but it will probably shorten the life of your brass 1-2 firings compared to slow cooling. When you quench metal it makes it harder than air cooled, but it also makes it more brittle. I can go into the heat treating aspects, annealling temperatures, grain structure, residual stresses, etc. but it's really reaaaaally boring for most.
</div></div>
Well, you TRIED to sound like you knew what you were talking about.
At least it sounded good.
Although, I bet if a person put a piece of brass through say... a 1,000 heat/cold cycles if you could induce work hardening through the expansion and contraction of the metal. Hmmm. I don't have time to try it. Ok, I do, but I just don't care enough. hehe
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: halcyon575</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would say it is ok to quench, but it will probably shorten the life of your brass 1-2 firings compared to slow cooling. When you quench metal it makes it harder than air cooled, but it also makes it more brittle. I can go into the heat treating aspects, annealling temperatures, grain structure, residual stresses, etc. but it's really reaaaaally boring for most.
</div></div>
Well, you TRIED to sound like you knew what you were talking about.
Although, I bet if a person put a piece of brass through say... a 1,000 heat/cold cycles if you could induce work hardening through the expansion and contraction of the metal. Hmmm. I don't have time to try it. Ok, I do, but I just don't care enough. hehe
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
i drop my cases in water , i dont think it's a big deal. I doubt it effects accuracy.
as for case life , im not sure annealing actually improves case life. So , if dunking your cases in water makes them alittle worse , oh well, can't be to much worse then the flame right ?
i drop my cases in water , i dont think it's a big deal. I doubt it effects accuracy.
as for case life , im not sure annealing actually improves case life. So , if dunking your cases in water makes them alittle worse , oh well, can't be to much worse then the flame right ?
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
when the neck is heated to the annealing tempature (650 degrees) the brass is annealed.I use temlilaq 650 degree paint,and when the tempilaq changes color it's done.Dropping in water or air cooling makes no differents.I drop my in water because I like to inpect it,and I don't get my fingers burned when I pick it up to inpect it. Good reloading !
when the neck is heated to the annealing tempature (650 degrees) the brass is annealed.I use temlilaq 650 degree paint,and when the tempilaq changes color it's done.Dropping in water or air cooling makes no differents.I drop my in water because I like to inpect it,and I don't get my fingers burned when I pick it up to inpect it. Good reloading !
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trental</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, you TRIED to sound like you knew what you were talking about.
At least it sounded good.</div></div>
Heat treating raw metals is part of what I do for a living. However, to be fair my experience has been limited to various types of carbon and stainless steel ranging from 1/8" to 4" thick (sliiiightly thicker than brass). However I do know that the underlying theories are sound.
I'm probably reading too much into it as Tripwire mentioned. I agree that the impact of quenching, hardening, and making the brass less ductile probably doesn't effect the brass as much as say a 2" carbon steel plate, but there is SOME impact. My 1-2 firing reduction is most likely wrong and I shouldn't have put that number out there without any objective evidence. It was a SWAG. Mia Culpa.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trental</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, you TRIED to sound like you knew what you were talking about.
Heat treating raw metals is part of what I do for a living. However, to be fair my experience has been limited to various types of carbon and stainless steel ranging from 1/8" to 4" thick (sliiiightly thicker than brass). However I do know that the underlying theories are sound.
I'm probably reading too much into it as Tripwire mentioned. I agree that the impact of quenching, hardening, and making the brass less ductile probably doesn't effect the brass as much as say a 2" carbon steel plate, but there is SOME impact. My 1-2 firing reduction is most likely wrong and I shouldn't have put that number out there without any objective evidence. It was a SWAG. Mia Culpa.
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
Thanks guys. It appears that the consensus is that you absolutely need to dunk the hot cases in water, unless you don't want to, in which case that's alright too. My concern was to keep the heat from running down the case to the web and overheating it. That doesn't appear to be a real problem. Thanks again to all...
Thanks guys. It appears that the consensus is that you absolutely need to dunk the hot cases in water, unless you don't want to, in which case that's alright too. My concern was to keep the heat from running down the case to the web and overheating it. That doesn't appear to be a real problem. Thanks again to all...
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: judgedelta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks guys. It appears that the consensus is that you absolutely need to dunk the hot cases in water, unless you don't want to, in which case that's alright too. My concern was to keep the heat from running down the case to the web and overheating it. That doesn't appear to be a real problem. Thanks again to all... </div></div>
Dunking eliminates the remote chance that a web, or a head, or even the lower 2/3's of the case walls recieves any migration of the heat....everyone knows you do not want to anneal any of that part of the brass.
The concern is subjective; a 338LM case probably wouldn't even stand a chance getting enough heat migrated to the lower part of the case before it cooled off enough, but something like a .243, or a .223, <span style="font-style: italic">might</span>, thus the positive insurance of the water quench. I like the idea of the instant "off" that a bucket of water gives me. I see my color change, it's out of the heat, and into the water....annealing action positively without a doubt DONE, and won't go any further.
The methods of annealing also are subjective; a machine probably puts it's heat to the brass much quicker, based on the annealing times/count I've seen posted on the web, so there's less duration of exposure. IOW, less heat to migrate. I do it "by hand" with a case holder, battery drill, a propane torch, and a cooler/richer/lazy soaking heat. My times are longer and more of the brass is exposed to heat for longer. I stand more of a chance putting heat into the case body than someone with a more automated system that's designed to run faster.
The amount of case annealed is subjective as well. Most just concern themselves with the case neck, either by ignorance or actually on purpose, and thus the amount of heat/duration is also far less for that reason. I personally anneal the neck <span style="font-style: italic">and</span> the shoulder in an overall even heat, because that's what I do for the reasons I do it, so I'm by my own method putting more overall heat into the brass for a longer time and thus risking more heat migration down the case body.
There is NO absolute with opinions and advice on annealing because of all the variables that people employ. It ranges from the anal extreme to the barely effective. What you have to do is seek that which works for you that anneals what you want annealed, and does not trash the brass. The outside boundaries are easy enough to identify; still hard and too soft; so anything in the middle is annealed enough. It's basically a bitch load of trial and error to find that for the average bench monkey. Some people aren't that tuned into their mechanical aptitude to figure things out for themselves, so they seek a guideline from others. The problem with annealing is there's a shit ton of different ways to get it done that all seem to work to their own end, and you'll get at least that many different answers....but, you need to understand not all parts of each method are absolutely interchangable.
That said, annealing is NOT any sort of rocket science.......
The reason most don't want to take advantage of the insurance a water quench offers is they're just too sorry to take the time/effort/indifference to let the stupid things dry out.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: judgedelta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks guys. It appears that the consensus is that you absolutely need to dunk the hot cases in water, unless you don't want to, in which case that's alright too. My concern was to keep the heat from running down the case to the web and overheating it. That doesn't appear to be a real problem. Thanks again to all... </div></div>
Dunking eliminates the remote chance that a web, or a head, or even the lower 2/3's of the case walls recieves any migration of the heat....everyone knows you do not want to anneal any of that part of the brass.
The concern is subjective; a 338LM case probably wouldn't even stand a chance getting enough heat migrated to the lower part of the case before it cooled off enough, but something like a .243, or a .223, <span style="font-style: italic">might</span>, thus the positive insurance of the water quench. I like the idea of the instant "off" that a bucket of water gives me. I see my color change, it's out of the heat, and into the water....annealing action positively without a doubt DONE, and won't go any further.
The methods of annealing also are subjective; a machine probably puts it's heat to the brass much quicker, based on the annealing times/count I've seen posted on the web, so there's less duration of exposure. IOW, less heat to migrate. I do it "by hand" with a case holder, battery drill, a propane torch, and a cooler/richer/lazy soaking heat. My times are longer and more of the brass is exposed to heat for longer. I stand more of a chance putting heat into the case body than someone with a more automated system that's designed to run faster.
The amount of case annealed is subjective as well. Most just concern themselves with the case neck, either by ignorance or actually on purpose, and thus the amount of heat/duration is also far less for that reason. I personally anneal the neck <span style="font-style: italic">and</span> the shoulder in an overall even heat, because that's what I do for the reasons I do it, so I'm by my own method putting more overall heat into the brass for a longer time and thus risking more heat migration down the case body.
There is NO absolute with opinions and advice on annealing because of all the variables that people employ. It ranges from the anal extreme to the barely effective. What you have to do is seek that which works for you that anneals what you want annealed, and does not trash the brass. The outside boundaries are easy enough to identify; still hard and too soft; so anything in the middle is annealed enough. It's basically a bitch load of trial and error to find that for the average bench monkey. Some people aren't that tuned into their mechanical aptitude to figure things out for themselves, so they seek a guideline from others. The problem with annealing is there's a shit ton of different ways to get it done that all seem to work to their own end, and you'll get at least that many different answers....but, you need to understand not all parts of each method are absolutely interchangable.
That said, annealing is NOT any sort of rocket science.......
The reason most don't want to take advantage of the insurance a water quench offers is they're just too sorry to take the time/effort/indifference to let the stupid things dry out.
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: halcyon575</div><div class="ubbcode-body">....I agree that the impact of quenching, hardening, and making the brass less ductile probably doesn't effect the brass as much as say a 2" carbon steel plate, but there is SOME impact.... </div></div>
No. The equilibrium phase diagrams between carbon steels and brass are absolutely different in nearly all ways. The grain microstructure is different, and their reaction to heat treatments is vastly different. You may not use any understanding/experience with the treatment of steel and apply it to brass.
I appreciate your experience in treating steel and similar alloys, but you must understand, the behavior of steel and brass is very, very different. Brass is NOT hardened by "quenching"!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: halcyon575</div><div class="ubbcode-body">....I agree that the impact of quenching, hardening, and making the brass less ductile probably doesn't effect the brass as much as say a 2" carbon steel plate, but there is SOME impact.... </div></div>
No. The equilibrium phase diagrams between carbon steels and brass are absolutely different in nearly all ways. The grain microstructure is different, and their reaction to heat treatments is vastly different. You may not use any understanding/experience with the treatment of steel and apply it to brass.
I appreciate your experience in treating steel and similar alloys, but you must understand, the behavior of steel and brass is very, very different. Brass is NOT hardened by "quenching"!
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: halcyon575</div><div class="ubbcode-body">....I agree that the impact of quenching, hardening, and making the brass less ductile probably doesn't effect the brass as much as say a 2" carbon steel plate, but there is SOME impact.... </div></div>
No. The equilibrium phase diagrams between carbon steels and brass are absolutely different in nearly all ways. The grain microstructure is different, and their reaction to heat treatments is vastly different. You may not use any understanding/experience with the treatment of steel and apply it to brass.
I appreciate your experience in treating steel and similar alloys, but you must understand, the behavior of steel and brass is very, very different. Brass is NOT hardened by "quenching"! </div></div>
+1
It's been years since I worked with any metallurgical data, but I do know that brass and steel are very different metallurgically. Steel is subject to quench hardening, but brass is not. For one thing, brass at 700F behaves very diffidently than steel at 700F. Steel, depending on the alloy (above about 1000F or so) bonds with carbon in the alloy and has a very different reaction to the heat/quench transition than brass alloys. It's apples and oranges.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: halcyon575</div><div class="ubbcode-body">....I agree that the impact of quenching, hardening, and making the brass less ductile probably doesn't effect the brass as much as say a 2" carbon steel plate, but there is SOME impact.... </div></div>
No. The equilibrium phase diagrams between carbon steels and brass are absolutely different in nearly all ways. The grain microstructure is different, and their reaction to heat treatments is vastly different. You may not use any understanding/experience with the treatment of steel and apply it to brass.
I appreciate your experience in treating steel and similar alloys, but you must understand, the behavior of steel and brass is very, very different. Brass is NOT hardened by "quenching"! </div></div>
+1
It's been years since I worked with any metallurgical data, but I do know that brass and steel are very different metallurgically. Steel is subject to quench hardening, but brass is not. For one thing, brass at 700F behaves very diffidently than steel at 700F. Steel, depending on the alloy (above about 1000F or so) bonds with carbon in the alloy and has a very different reaction to the heat/quench transition than brass alloys. It's apples and oranges.
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
It depends a lot on how you heat the case neck and or shoulder and how large the case is. If you are using a huge blow torch with poor precision of where the heat is applied and for how long then it may be useful and safer to stand the cases in water upto just below the shoulder and then tip them over when finnished . If the case is very small same thing.
However the dunking does not add anything to the annealing that I can notice. If you have a very precise small torch or an annealing machine that applies precise heat in the right spot for a specific time then water dunking is of no real gain .
It depends a lot on how you heat the case neck and or shoulder and how large the case is. If you are using a huge blow torch with poor precision of where the heat is applied and for how long then it may be useful and safer to stand the cases in water upto just below the shoulder and then tip them over when finnished . If the case is very small same thing.
However the dunking does not add anything to the annealing that I can notice. If you have a very precise small torch or an annealing machine that applies precise heat in the right spot for a specific time then water dunking is of no real gain .
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
Everyone could start their quest to anneal by actually trying to understand the process......via google + "annealing brass" yeilds in .09 seconds 111,000 hits and 8 searches related to "annealing brass". If you can't find an answer to a question in all that info then there just isn't any hope for you.
Fourth down the list is Annealing (metalurgy) - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia.
The basic truth is we use a brass alloy in our cartridge cases, and everything we do to this brass alloy, from firing it in a firearm's chamber the first time to reseating a new bullet in it, subjects the brass to what we call "work".
Work is any physical force that changes the shape of the brass. Physically changing the shape of the brass changes the internal structure of the brass by inducing internal stresses on the molecular level. These changes in molecular structure reduce the "ductility" of our brass. When the stresses in our cartridge brass reach a critical point we see the results as split necks and shoulders...some of us see it earlier than that in the form of lousy neck tension and a variance from normal "accuracy".
If you go down to "Process Annealing" in the wikipedia article you can read about what what we are doing here with our cartridge brass. There are stages of annealing that go all the way to a "full anneal", which in our case is a piece of brass that is too soft. We are controlling our annealing process to only partially anneal the brass so that the alloy will still retain some of it's hardness properties yet still allow us to work it further without it breaking.
Since it would be dangerous to anneal the entire piece of brass to the level of ductility we require in our case necks and shoulders, we do not heat the entire piece of brass, which is why we just don't stick 'em in a furnace to do it. It's why we take extra pains to just heat the neck or neck/shoulder. It's why some of us take the time/effort to quench the brass after the neck/shoulder reach the right temp.
Since the range of temps for process annealing range from 500 degrees F to 750 degrees F, it is entirely feasable that a partial anneal can happen further down the brass case where we don't want it by migration of the heat after the neck/shoulder is done. Brass is a very good conducter of heat, meaning it heats very quickly, and meaning heat travels very quickly through it. It's my judgement for my process that I simply do not want to take that chance.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unlike ferrous metals—which must be cooled slowly to anneal—copper, silver[1] and brass can be cooled slowly in air or quickly by quenching in water. In this fashion the metal is softened and prepared for further work such as shaping, stamping, or forming.</div></div>
Since it's okay to do, and since I know it will emmediately stop the heat precisely where I want it stopped, I'll continue to water quench my brass. I'm not shooting your brass so to each his own, and you'll never convince me that quenching is a waste of time/effort.
Everyone could start their quest to anneal by actually trying to understand the process......via google + "annealing brass" yeilds in .09 seconds 111,000 hits and 8 searches related to "annealing brass". If you can't find an answer to a question in all that info then there just isn't any hope for you.
Fourth down the list is Annealing (metalurgy) - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia.
The basic truth is we use a brass alloy in our cartridge cases, and everything we do to this brass alloy, from firing it in a firearm's chamber the first time to reseating a new bullet in it, subjects the brass to what we call "work".
Work is any physical force that changes the shape of the brass. Physically changing the shape of the brass changes the internal structure of the brass by inducing internal stresses on the molecular level. These changes in molecular structure reduce the "ductility" of our brass. When the stresses in our cartridge brass reach a critical point we see the results as split necks and shoulders...some of us see it earlier than that in the form of lousy neck tension and a variance from normal "accuracy".
If you go down to "Process Annealing" in the wikipedia article you can read about what what we are doing here with our cartridge brass. There are stages of annealing that go all the way to a "full anneal", which in our case is a piece of brass that is too soft. We are controlling our annealing process to only partially anneal the brass so that the alloy will still retain some of it's hardness properties yet still allow us to work it further without it breaking.
Since it would be dangerous to anneal the entire piece of brass to the level of ductility we require in our case necks and shoulders, we do not heat the entire piece of brass, which is why we just don't stick 'em in a furnace to do it. It's why we take extra pains to just heat the neck or neck/shoulder. It's why some of us take the time/effort to quench the brass after the neck/shoulder reach the right temp.
Since the range of temps for process annealing range from 500 degrees F to 750 degrees F, it is entirely feasable that a partial anneal can happen further down the brass case where we don't want it by migration of the heat after the neck/shoulder is done. Brass is a very good conducter of heat, meaning it heats very quickly, and meaning heat travels very quickly through it. It's my judgement for my process that I simply do not want to take that chance.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unlike ferrous metals—which must be cooled slowly to anneal—copper, silver[1] and brass can be cooled slowly in air or quickly by quenching in water. In this fashion the metal is softened and prepared for further work such as shaping, stamping, or forming.</div></div>
Since it's okay to do, and since I know it will emmediately stop the heat precisely where I want it stopped, I'll continue to water quench my brass. I'm not shooting your brass so to each his own, and you'll never convince me that quenching is a waste of time/effort.
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
First, regarding temperatures. I know the BenchSource manual says to shoot for 650, but everything else I've ever read (incl the manuals of every other annealer I've seen) says 750 is more realistic when annealing cases. For 650 to do a thorough job, you'd have to keep the brass heated for so long that the rest of the case is affected. That would be a bad thing to say the least. Stopping at 650 won't hurt anything, it just won't complete the annealing process.
Brass is not steel. Quenching does not affect the two metals the same. For brass, quenching in water doesn't hurt but it doesn't help either, with one possible exception. If you are annealing small cases (.223 or smaller), it is possible for the softening effects of annealing to spread farther down the case than you want (because the heat spreads farther down than with larger cases). Quenching in water will make sure the heat doesn't spread any farther than intended. For the same reason, heating the smaller cases should be as quick as possible.
For more info: LINK
First, regarding temperatures. I know the BenchSource manual says to shoot for 650, but everything else I've ever read (incl the manuals of every other annealer I've seen) says 750 is more realistic when annealing cases. For 650 to do a thorough job, you'd have to keep the brass heated for so long that the rest of the case is affected. That would be a bad thing to say the least. Stopping at 650 won't hurt anything, it just won't complete the annealing process.
Brass is not steel. Quenching does not affect the two metals the same. For brass, quenching in water doesn't hurt but it doesn't help either, with one possible exception. If you are annealing small cases (.223 or smaller), it is possible for the softening effects of annealing to spread farther down the case than you want (because the heat spreads farther down than with larger cases). Quenching in water will make sure the heat doesn't spread any farther than intended. For the same reason, heating the smaller cases should be as quick as possible.
For more info: LINK
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OldTex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First, regarding temperatures. I know the BenchSource manual says to shoot for 650, but everything else I've ever read (incl the manuals of every other annealer I've seen) says 750 is more realistic when annealing cases. For 650 to do a thorough job, you'd have to keep the brass heated for so long that the rest of the case is affected. That would be a bad thing to say the least. Stopping at 650 won't hurt anything, it just won't complete the annealing process.
</div></div>
There's perfectly good metalurgical science behind the annealing process of brass, and it shows a pretty big window of "right"....the reason you get a suggested specific temperature with your fancy machines, and likely the obligatory method to measure the temperature, is because most knucleheads trying to do this get wrapped around the axle with a simple change in color, and customer service is a resource that's only so big. So it's just easier to idiot proof it with a specific temp that will cover all cartridge brass alloys, and tell you to get temilac to find it.
And last I knew 6mm.com isn't the holiest grail of all things reloading.........
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OldTex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First, regarding temperatures. I know the BenchSource manual says to shoot for 650, but everything else I've ever read (incl the manuals of every other annealer I've seen) says 750 is more realistic when annealing cases. For 650 to do a thorough job, you'd have to keep the brass heated for so long that the rest of the case is affected. That would be a bad thing to say the least. Stopping at 650 won't hurt anything, it just won't complete the annealing process.
</div></div>
There's perfectly good metalurgical science behind the annealing process of brass, and it shows a pretty big window of "right"....the reason you get a suggested specific temperature with your fancy machines, and likely the obligatory method to measure the temperature, is because most knucleheads trying to do this get wrapped around the axle with a simple change in color, and customer service is a resource that's only so big. So it's just easier to idiot proof it with a specific temp that will cover all cartridge brass alloys, and tell you to get temilac to find it.
And last I knew 6mm.com isn't the holiest grail of all things reloading.........
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
Got a better reference source? Anything to offer other than name-calling?
Got a better reference source? Anything to offer other than name-calling?
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OldTex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Got a better reference source? Anything to offer other than name-calling? </div></div>
Apparently you don't pay much attention to what's already been posted in a thread.......
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: OldTex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Got a better reference source? Anything to offer other than name-calling? </div></div>
Apparently you don't pay much attention to what's already been posted in a thread.......
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
I am not sure why you feel the need to insult people on this site but here is a quote from the American Society for Metals, Heat Treating Society. Not Wikepedia which can be edited by any moron. Stick to reliable sources of information, not U-Tube.
<span style="font-style: italic">Annealing of cold-worked metal is accomplished by heating to a temperature that produces recrystallization and, if desirable, by heating beyond the recrystalliztion temperature to initiate grain growth. <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Annealing primarily is a function of metal temperature and time at temperature</span></span>. The source and application of heat, furnace design, furnace atmosphere, and shape of the workpiece have a significant influence on part finish, cost of annealing, and uniformity of results obtained.</span>
Note the underlined passage regarding the temperature and time at temperature being the critical issues. Water quenching provides absolute control over the issue of time at temperature and is the best option available to the hobbyist for better control of the annealing process, lacking sophisticated air quenching heat treatment equipment. Splitting a case because it was not hot enough, long enough, isnt great, but heating the head of a case to the point of possible annealing can be disastrous. Err on the side of conservatism. I recommend the ASM as the best source of information on any topic regarding metal. Their metallurgy science is the basis of both ASME and ASTM codes which are the foundations of building virtually everything.
Good luck and don't be a jerkoff.
I am not sure why you feel the need to insult people on this site but here is a quote from the American Society for Metals, Heat Treating Society. Not Wikepedia which can be edited by any moron. Stick to reliable sources of information, not U-Tube.
<span style="font-style: italic">Annealing of cold-worked metal is accomplished by heating to a temperature that produces recrystallization and, if desirable, by heating beyond the recrystalliztion temperature to initiate grain growth. <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Annealing primarily is a function of metal temperature and time at temperature</span></span>. The source and application of heat, furnace design, furnace atmosphere, and shape of the workpiece have a significant influence on part finish, cost of annealing, and uniformity of results obtained.</span>
Note the underlined passage regarding the temperature and time at temperature being the critical issues. Water quenching provides absolute control over the issue of time at temperature and is the best option available to the hobbyist for better control of the annealing process, lacking sophisticated air quenching heat treatment equipment. Splitting a case because it was not hot enough, long enough, isnt great, but heating the head of a case to the point of possible annealing can be disastrous. Err on the side of conservatism. I recommend the ASM as the best source of information on any topic regarding metal. Their metallurgy science is the basis of both ASME and ASTM codes which are the foundations of building virtually everything.
Good luck and don't be a jerkoff.
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: .375Mojave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am not sure why you feel the need to insult people on this site but here is a quote from the American Society for Metals, Heat Treating Society. Not Wikepedia which can be edited by any moron. Stick to reliable sources of information, not U-Tube.
<span style="font-style: italic">Annealing of cold-worked metal is accomplished by heating to a temperature that produces recrystallization and, if desirable, by heating beyond the recrystalliztion temperature to initiate grain growth. <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Annealing primarily is a function of metal temperature and time at temperature</span></span>. The source and application of heat, furnace design, furnace atmosphere, and shape of the workpiece have a significant influence on part finish, cost of annealing, and uniformity of results obtained.</span>
Note the underlined passage regarding the temperature and time at temperature being the critical issues. Water quenching provides absolute control over the issue of time at temperature and is the best option available to the hobbyist for better control of the annealing process, lacking sophisticated air quenching heat treatment equipment. Splitting a case because it was not hot enough, long enough, isnt great, but heating the head of a case to the point of possible annealing can be disastrous. Err on the side of conservatism. I recommend the ASM as the best source of information on any topic regarding metal. Their metallurgy science is the basis of both ASME and ASTM codes which are the foundations of building virtually everything.
Good luck and don't be a jerkoff. </div></div>
And what's your point other than restating what's already been beat into the ground ad nauseum on this subject here, in a multitude of threads, over a vast length of time?
Did you miss where I mentioned over 100k other sources of info via a single stroke of google?
The wiki reference was just the one at the top and the easiest for any average idiot to read right away.....nothing I posted indicated it was the god send of all annealing info.
To be critical of an exact time and temperature with cartridge brass is an exercise in futility....because every maker of cartridge brass uses a different alloy, which by default alters the time/temp varible. The only reason people get away with it is because the window of time and temp is wide enough to accept the 1,001 different ways people try to do this with the very thin profile of the brass alloys we are working with.
Which supports my contempt for all the anal crap people insist on partaking to do this "right"....which of course you must be translating into being an insult.
If you are one of the ones that insists on making this harder than it is, then by all means rock on, it's no skin off of my nose. I'll continue it my way, with better results than most anal people get, and I'll lose not one damn wink of sleep over it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: .375Mojave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am not sure why you feel the need to insult people on this site but here is a quote from the American Society for Metals, Heat Treating Society. Not Wikepedia which can be edited by any moron. Stick to reliable sources of information, not U-Tube.
<span style="font-style: italic">Annealing of cold-worked metal is accomplished by heating to a temperature that produces recrystallization and, if desirable, by heating beyond the recrystalliztion temperature to initiate grain growth. <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Annealing primarily is a function of metal temperature and time at temperature</span></span>. The source and application of heat, furnace design, furnace atmosphere, and shape of the workpiece have a significant influence on part finish, cost of annealing, and uniformity of results obtained.</span>
Note the underlined passage regarding the temperature and time at temperature being the critical issues. Water quenching provides absolute control over the issue of time at temperature and is the best option available to the hobbyist for better control of the annealing process, lacking sophisticated air quenching heat treatment equipment. Splitting a case because it was not hot enough, long enough, isnt great, but heating the head of a case to the point of possible annealing can be disastrous. Err on the side of conservatism. I recommend the ASM as the best source of information on any topic regarding metal. Their metallurgy science is the basis of both ASME and ASTM codes which are the foundations of building virtually everything.
Good luck and don't be a jerkoff. </div></div>
And what's your point other than restating what's already been beat into the ground ad nauseum on this subject here, in a multitude of threads, over a vast length of time?
Did you miss where I mentioned over 100k other sources of info via a single stroke of google?
The wiki reference was just the one at the top and the easiest for any average idiot to read right away.....nothing I posted indicated it was the god send of all annealing info.
To be critical of an exact time and temperature with cartridge brass is an exercise in futility....because every maker of cartridge brass uses a different alloy, which by default alters the time/temp varible. The only reason people get away with it is because the window of time and temp is wide enough to accept the 1,001 different ways people try to do this with the very thin profile of the brass alloys we are working with.
Which supports my contempt for all the anal crap people insist on partaking to do this "right"....which of course you must be translating into being an insult.
If you are one of the ones that insists on making this harder than it is, then by all means rock on, it's no skin off of my nose. I'll continue it my way, with better results than most anal people get, and I'll lose not one damn wink of sleep over it.
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
Not that this has an scientific bearing what so ever, but I just love to hear that sizzle as the brass hits the water. I feel like I accoomplished something.
But I did have a question to add...What is the effect of over cooking your brass when you anneal it?
How much effect is there if you undercook it? Do you get any value in molecular realignment to speak of?
Not that this has an scientific bearing what so ever, but I just love to hear that sizzle as the brass hits the water. I feel like I accoomplished something.
But I did have a question to add...What is the effect of over cooking your brass when you anneal it?
How much effect is there if you undercook it? Do you get any value in molecular realignment to speak of?
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
Overcooking will basically kill it; worst case you turn it black and begin to melt/burn it, best of worst case it's just too soft to do you any good.
Under cooking will basically just waste the time you spent on it because not enough annealing is taking place....if you know that has happened you can re-anneal properly and be fine.
Overcooking will basically kill it; worst case you turn it black and begin to melt/burn it, best of worst case it's just too soft to do you any good.
Under cooking will basically just waste the time you spent on it because not enough annealing is taking place....if you know that has happened you can re-anneal properly and be fine.
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
"<span style="font-style: italic">And what's your point other than restating what's already been beat into the ground ad nauseum on this subject here, in a multitude of threads, over a vast length of time?</span>"
I was just trying to provide a reliable source of information to what I assumed to be a sincere novice. All these threads have been re-treaded a hundred times but new people arrive and ask old questions. Amazing that you admit this topic has been beaten to death but here you are the "Responder in Chief" on it. Are you new to English as a language?
You openly express contempt "<span style="font-style: italic">Which supports my contempt for all the anal crap people insist on partaking to do this "right"....</span> but it your expressed contempt shouldn't be misconstrued as an insult. Wow, now there is a breathtakingly stupid statement.
Apparently you thought "Hide" in the site meant little boys with insecurity issues could insult people without having to come face-to-face with anybody they insult. I dont think it means what you think it means.
Good luck straightening everybody in the world out.
"<span style="font-style: italic">And what's your point other than restating what's already been beat into the ground ad nauseum on this subject here, in a multitude of threads, over a vast length of time?</span>"
I was just trying to provide a reliable source of information to what I assumed to be a sincere novice. All these threads have been re-treaded a hundred times but new people arrive and ask old questions. Amazing that you admit this topic has been beaten to death but here you are the "Responder in Chief" on it. Are you new to English as a language?
You openly express contempt "<span style="font-style: italic">Which supports my contempt for all the anal crap people insist on partaking to do this "right"....</span> but it your expressed contempt shouldn't be misconstrued as an insult. Wow, now there is a breathtakingly stupid statement.
Apparently you thought "Hide" in the site meant little boys with insecurity issues could insult people without having to come face-to-face with anybody they insult. I dont think it means what you think it means.
Good luck straightening everybody in the world out.
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
My vote is not to dunk.
If you do everything properly the neck should be heated rapidly to its annealing temp, and the case removed from the heat source. The case heads will get hot, but not enough to cause any changes in the metal.
I have tested both methods (dunk and no dunk) and whilst the dunk feels safer, it isnt needed.
I tell people that are learning to dunk as it feels safe. After you have gotten the technique down, stop dunking.
My 0.02
My vote is not to dunk.
If you do everything properly the neck should be heated rapidly to its annealing temp, and the case removed from the heat source. The case heads will get hot, but not enough to cause any changes in the metal.
I have tested both methods (dunk and no dunk) and whilst the dunk feels safer, it isnt needed.
I tell people that are learning to dunk as it feels safe. After you have gotten the technique down, stop dunking.
My 0.02
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: .375Mojave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"<span style="font-style: italic">And what's your point other than restating what's already been beat into the ground ad nauseum on this subject here, in a multitude of threads, over a vast length of time?</span>"
I was just trying to provide a reliable source of information to what I assumed to be a sincere novice. All these threads have been re-treaded a hundred times but new people arrive and ask old questions. Amazing that you admit this topic has been beaten to death but here you are the "Responder in Chief" on it. Are you new to English as a language?
You openly express contempt "<span style="font-style: italic">Which supports my contempt for all the anal crap people insist on partaking to do this "right"....</span> but it your expressed contempt shouldn't be misconstrued as an insult. Wow, now there is a breathtakingly stupid statement.
Apparently you thought "Hide" in the site meant little boys with insecurity issues could insult people without having to come face-to-face with anybody they insult. I dont think it means what you think it means.
Good luck straightening everybody in the world out. </div></div>
Dude, do yourself a big favor and check those meds.........
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: .375Mojave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"<span style="font-style: italic">And what's your point other than restating what's already been beat into the ground ad nauseum on this subject here, in a multitude of threads, over a vast length of time?</span>"
I was just trying to provide a reliable source of information to what I assumed to be a sincere novice. All these threads have been re-treaded a hundred times but new people arrive and ask old questions. Amazing that you admit this topic has been beaten to death but here you are the "Responder in Chief" on it. Are you new to English as a language?
You openly express contempt "<span style="font-style: italic">Which supports my contempt for all the anal crap people insist on partaking to do this "right"....</span> but it your expressed contempt shouldn't be misconstrued as an insult. Wow, now there is a breathtakingly stupid statement.
Apparently you thought "Hide" in the site meant little boys with insecurity issues could insult people without having to come face-to-face with anybody they insult. I dont think it means what you think it means.
Good luck straightening everybody in the world out. </div></div>
Dude, do yourself a big favor and check those meds.........
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
Trip,
I anneal every firing, but I suspect the process I use could be better.
Using a Bench Source I think I am slightly under cooking my cases.
I used the 650 degree tempilaq as recommended by the manual and realize I (more or less) cooked it off with the torches.
Do you recommend that I go to a 750ish degree tempilaq inside the case neck, then (temporarily cap the neck flame proof) while running the tests?
Trip,
I anneal every firing, but I suspect the process I use could be better.
Using a Bench Source I think I am slightly under cooking my cases.
I used the 650 degree tempilaq as recommended by the manual and realize I (more or less) cooked it off with the torches.
Do you recommend that I go to a 750ish degree tempilaq inside the case neck, then (temporarily cap the neck flame proof) while running the tests?
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
Are you sure you want to ask that??
Depends on the round and what I'm doing with it.
Not a big deal with Bench Source, but for F-class rifles in stuff like 6mmbr I anneal every round.
Actually, I fire virgin brass twice then anneal it after the second firing then ever single firing after that. The guys shooting 1 inch groups at 600 yards follow the same procedure....So do I.
In the quest to maintain single digit velocity variation, runout measured as close to 0.0001 as possible, as well as shoot groups in the 0.1" range, it just seems part of the drill.
After 3 firings I can see changes in runout, neck tension/seating force begins to move ( I run an arbor press with a force gauge), and I can see statistical group movement.
It takes a lot of attention to detail in the quest for 0.1" groups (or 1" at 600) and I have learned to leave no stone unturned.....Way too benchresty for some...No doubt most, but hey! This is my party!
I don't do it with all of them or bother with real high round count chambers (like a 223) or bigger bores like the 308, but I do not go more than 3-4 firings on a 260.
Confession: If it says Lapua on the headstamp (including 338 Lapua) it gets annealed every firing.
Now are you sorry you asked?
Now, if I can just get my shooting to keep up with my reloading bench I will be stylin'!
Are you sure you want to ask that??
Depends on the round and what I'm doing with it.
Not a big deal with Bench Source, but for F-class rifles in stuff like 6mmbr I anneal every round.
Actually, I fire virgin brass twice then anneal it after the second firing then ever single firing after that. The guys shooting 1 inch groups at 600 yards follow the same procedure....So do I.
In the quest to maintain single digit velocity variation, runout measured as close to 0.0001 as possible, as well as shoot groups in the 0.1" range, it just seems part of the drill.
After 3 firings I can see changes in runout, neck tension/seating force begins to move ( I run an arbor press with a force gauge), and I can see statistical group movement.
It takes a lot of attention to detail in the quest for 0.1" groups (or 1" at 600) and I have learned to leave no stone unturned.....Way too benchresty for some...No doubt most, but hey! This is my party!
I don't do it with all of them or bother with real high round count chambers (like a 223) or bigger bores like the 308, but I do not go more than 3-4 firings on a 260.
Confession: If it says Lapua on the headstamp (including 338 Lapua) it gets annealed every firing.
Now are you sorry you asked?
Now, if I can just get my shooting to keep up with my reloading bench I will be stylin'!
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
I'm not sorry I asked, I am always curious as to the motivation behind things. I can understand the need to consistency in neck tension and run out at 600 yards, but have you tried not annealing them after every firing and seeing if that opened up the groups?
I'm not sorry I asked, I am always curious as to the motivation behind things. I can understand the need to consistency in neck tension and run out at 600 yards, but have you tried not annealing them after every firing and seeing if that opened up the groups?
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
This will be a long answer to your question, but the short answer is yes I can see the changes.
Just so we are clear this is bench rest/F-class application only so tactical shooter look away!
I robbed my load and shooting development technique from amalgamating shooter data books with having a smart buddy apply statistics to my (as delivered to him) data.
For each shot I record all weather, record wind flags, measure the group (on target software), and call every shot. I go then go back and reference the information, carefully throw out the shots I screwed, and cross reference changes to load data. Then math whiz buddy analyzes the statistics on a larger group of information. The math allows us to see trends and make small adjustments that you will not see in one target....Or even 5 targets.
Sorry, I am not smart enough to explain the math, but basically the data is curved rather than just averaged.
The system is very much garbage in garbage out and it takes a lot of time to comb thoroughly thru detailed shot notes, but there are clear trends over 20-30 groups that you would never catch in 5. It also means you have to be working with a consistent group of components and not constantly switching bullets and powder. The larger the data base the more pressing the statistics become and the quicker you can adapt or reject a new technique.
Do this enough and your groups slowly get smaller.
My local 600 yard range is a nightmare of weather conditions so I test load development at another very quiet (weather wise) range at 200 yards and go out to 350 when conditions are perfect.
I have been using this system for near two years and my groups have gotten a lot smaller and a lot more consistent at all distances.
So while you couldn't see the annealing difference in one group, that little change could improve your score over a 6 group match.
Add up several similar changes and maybe your getting somewhere.
Sorry if I wandered about while try to answer your question.
This will be a long answer to your question, but the short answer is yes I can see the changes.
Just so we are clear this is bench rest/F-class application only so tactical shooter look away!
I robbed my load and shooting development technique from amalgamating shooter data books with having a smart buddy apply statistics to my (as delivered to him) data.
For each shot I record all weather, record wind flags, measure the group (on target software), and call every shot. I go then go back and reference the information, carefully throw out the shots I screwed, and cross reference changes to load data. Then math whiz buddy analyzes the statistics on a larger group of information. The math allows us to see trends and make small adjustments that you will not see in one target....Or even 5 targets.
Sorry, I am not smart enough to explain the math, but basically the data is curved rather than just averaged.
The system is very much garbage in garbage out and it takes a lot of time to comb thoroughly thru detailed shot notes, but there are clear trends over 20-30 groups that you would never catch in 5. It also means you have to be working with a consistent group of components and not constantly switching bullets and powder. The larger the data base the more pressing the statistics become and the quicker you can adapt or reject a new technique.
Do this enough and your groups slowly get smaller.
My local 600 yard range is a nightmare of weather conditions so I test load development at another very quiet (weather wise) range at 200 yards and go out to 350 when conditions are perfect.
I have been using this system for near two years and my groups have gotten a lot smaller and a lot more consistent at all distances.
So while you couldn't see the annealing difference in one group, that little change could improve your score over a 6 group match.
Add up several similar changes and maybe your getting somewhere.
Sorry if I wandered about while try to answer your question.
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
This made me "LOL"
What an awesome way to tell someone to fuck off without actually saying it.
However, I will say that I did learn something by reading Tripwire's posts... so, thanks to you sir.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: .375Mojave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"<span style="font-style: italic">And what's your point other than restating what's already been beat into the ground ad nauseum on this subject here, in a multitude of threads, over a vast length of time?</span>"
I was just trying to provide a reliable source of information to what I assumed to be a sincere novice. All these threads have been re-treaded a hundred times but new people arrive and ask old questions. Amazing that you admit this topic has been beaten to death but here you are the "Responder in Chief" on it. Are you new to English as a language?
You openly express contempt "<span style="font-style: italic">Which supports my contempt for all the anal crap people insist on partaking to do this "right"....</span> but it your expressed contempt shouldn't be misconstrued as an insult. Wow, now there is a breathtakingly stupid statement.
Apparently you thought "Hide" in the site meant little boys with insecurity issues could insult people without having to come face-to-face with anybody they insult. I dont think it means what you think it means.
Good luck straightening everybody in the world out. </div></div>
This made me "LOL"
What an awesome way to tell someone to fuck off without actually saying it.
However, I will say that I did learn something by reading Tripwire's posts... so, thanks to you sir.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: .375Mojave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"<span style="font-style: italic">And what's your point other than restating what's already been beat into the ground ad nauseum on this subject here, in a multitude of threads, over a vast length of time?</span>"
I was just trying to provide a reliable source of information to what I assumed to be a sincere novice. All these threads have been re-treaded a hundred times but new people arrive and ask old questions. Amazing that you admit this topic has been beaten to death but here you are the "Responder in Chief" on it. Are you new to English as a language?
You openly express contempt "<span style="font-style: italic">Which supports my contempt for all the anal crap people insist on partaking to do this "right"....</span> but it your expressed contempt shouldn't be misconstrued as an insult. Wow, now there is a breathtakingly stupid statement.
Apparently you thought "Hide" in the site meant little boys with insecurity issues could insult people without having to come face-to-face with anybody they insult. I dont think it means what you think it means.
Good luck straightening everybody in the world out. </div></div>
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
kind of a shame as both guys have good stuff to add, just different viewpoints and experience.
I've been known to be a hard headed SOB myself...So I can relate.
kind of a shame as both guys have good stuff to add, just different viewpoints and experience.
I've been known to be a hard headed SOB myself...So I can relate.
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
I can appreciate being told to fuck off, plain and simple, rather than some long winded line of pussy ass bullshit that dances around the subject.....
My contention is that most people looking into annealing fall hook line and sinker for the magical mystical voodoo shit that the internet is full of. If you are here asking first time advice about annealing then chances are you're still not able to shoot the difference between two annealing temps 50 degrees apart, or two annealing times 3 or 4 seconds apart.
It' also my contention, that for <span style="font-style: italic">most</span> shooters just getting into the game, that if other conditions are not addressed also, or first, then an uber precise annealing method isn't going to help you much...and I'm talking about actual load development, TIR, reading wind, and shooter technique.
People can't hit shit and hear about annealing, like they hear about case trimming, COAL, and which brass is "better", and think it's the holy grail....then get wrapped around the axle trying to perfect something that, for all intents and purposes, can be done quite effectively with a rudimentary system.
In my humble experience, neck tension is another magical mystical voodoo application of horseshit to the nth degree....as long as it's consistant, and you have enough and not too much, then you're good to go. I've found no need to get wrapped around that axle either.
I anneal everything in a bolt gun after every first or second firing, and I do it specifically to give my brass the chance to full length size with a .001" bump of the shoulder, and with the least amount of run out possible.
When I can take a good bullet and lay a bunch of them into a group just over 1.25" at 500 yards from bipods, rear bag, and TIS sling...then my system is legit and the rifle/load qualifies to me as a "thing hitter". That may or may not win "matches", but I'm not a match shooter either, I'm just the guy that says this ain't rocket science dude.
YMMV.............
I can appreciate being told to fuck off, plain and simple, rather than some long winded line of pussy ass bullshit that dances around the subject.....
My contention is that most people looking into annealing fall hook line and sinker for the magical mystical voodoo shit that the internet is full of. If you are here asking first time advice about annealing then chances are you're still not able to shoot the difference between two annealing temps 50 degrees apart, or two annealing times 3 or 4 seconds apart.
It' also my contention, that for <span style="font-style: italic">most</span> shooters just getting into the game, that if other conditions are not addressed also, or first, then an uber precise annealing method isn't going to help you much...and I'm talking about actual load development, TIR, reading wind, and shooter technique.
People can't hit shit and hear about annealing, like they hear about case trimming, COAL, and which brass is "better", and think it's the holy grail....then get wrapped around the axle trying to perfect something that, for all intents and purposes, can be done quite effectively with a rudimentary system.
In my humble experience, neck tension is another magical mystical voodoo application of horseshit to the nth degree....as long as it's consistant, and you have enough and not too much, then you're good to go. I've found no need to get wrapped around that axle either.
I anneal everything in a bolt gun after every first or second firing, and I do it specifically to give my brass the chance to full length size with a .001" bump of the shoulder, and with the least amount of run out possible.
When I can take a good bullet and lay a bunch of them into a group just over 1.25" at 500 yards from bipods, rear bag, and TIS sling...then my system is legit and the rifle/load qualifies to me as a "thing hitter". That may or may not win "matches", but I'm not a match shooter either, I'm just the guy that says this ain't rocket science dude.
YMMV.............
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
I shoot 5000 rnds. a year and do not anneal..lotsa reasons to and lotsa reasons no to.......
OMHO
bill larson
I shoot 5000 rnds. a year and do not anneal..lotsa reasons to and lotsa reasons no to.......
OMHO
bill larson
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
That was not "long winded line of pussy ass bullshit that dances around the subject....." I was not dancing, just drawing a sharp contrast between a rude blowhard and reasonable discourse among people trying to learn more about long range shooting.
I know you struggle with comprehension so I will clear it up for you, YOU are the rude blowhard.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with the technical advice you have provided and I think you know exactly what you are doing, you just can't help yourself from being an asshole about it.
Keep up the good info, try to lay off the "tough guy on the internet" thing, it really isn't impressing anyone. I hope that was direct enough for you.
That was not "long winded line of pussy ass bullshit that dances around the subject....." I was not dancing, just drawing a sharp contrast between a rude blowhard and reasonable discourse among people trying to learn more about long range shooting.
I know you struggle with comprehension so I will clear it up for you, YOU are the rude blowhard.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with the technical advice you have provided and I think you know exactly what you are doing, you just can't help yourself from being an asshole about it.
Keep up the good info, try to lay off the "tough guy on the internet" thing, it really isn't impressing anyone. I hope that was direct enough for you.
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
Just tell me to fuck off and be done with it.....
I'll start...fuck off.
Wondering though, since my attitude yanks your short hairs so hard, who's holding a gun to your head forcing you to read my posts?
Just tell me to fuck off and be done with it.....
I'll start...fuck off.
Wondering though, since my attitude yanks your short hairs so hard, who's holding a gun to your head forcing you to read my posts?
Re: annealing: to dunk or not to dunk
Trust me, you dont get under my skin, I don't have enough respect for your intellect for that. Most of this is just some entertainment for me.
I was just tracking the thread and your crappy attitude toward other members. I decided I had to call you on it when you felt compelled to make the comments on my input to the question.
You may be a good shot with a gun but in a battle of wits you are an unarmed man. You <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">had</span></span> to have heard that before now.
Keep up the good work though.
Trust me, you dont get under my skin, I don't have enough respect for your intellect for that. Most of this is just some entertainment for me.
I was just tracking the thread and your crappy attitude toward other members. I decided I had to call you on it when you felt compelled to make the comments on my input to the question.
You may be a good shot with a gun but in a battle of wits you are an unarmed man. You <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">had</span></span> to have heard that before now.
Keep up the good work though.
