Another Reason I Hate Unions

-=boone=-

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

Union members to lazy to work, I mean walk their own picket lines??? Who would have thought that?
 

shark0311

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

Since when is a discussion concerning collective bargaining agreements between an employer and employees considered politics?

You guys are reading too much into it.
 

Queequeg

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

The Soviets were Union
laugh.gif


I have been in the trades all my life and never been a member of a union. Never even worked on a project where union scale was mandated through the Davis-Bacon act.

In my experience, it is sanctified discrimination. Unions are able to practice nepotism, kickbacks and discrimination with impunity. Just like journalism and academia practice ideological discrimination in their hiring, tenure and admissions practices.

And to be clear, almost without exception, with union workers you pay more for no greater value, the skill level is not better, the productivity is woefully less than non-union and the politicking is unending: like the absurd schedules of their projects.
laugh.gif


The funny thing is the delusion so many members "labor" under that they are being protected!

 

shark0311

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Soviets were Union
laugh.gif

</div></div>

So was half of the United States
smile.gif
 
G

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Want another reason to hate unions - read - this is absolutely true...
From KNox Machinery to GM when talking about the bailouts..

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/knox.asp
</div></div>

Wow!
That was a good one!
 

shark0311

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Soviet Union...Get it?

Unions are as necessary for workers as bicycles are for fish. </div></div>

1.) Union in reference to the federal gov't during the American civil war... Get it?
smile.gif


2.) Agreed, as it pertains to today.
 

Mike

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

Verbiage of words changed for the benefit of those with an obvious agenda.

Also, since it was pointed out that we can interpret any word in the connotation we see fit, I will ensure that I will be extremely diligent in not only watching my own posts, but ensuring that I will watch EVERY SINGLE WORD posted by other members.
 

Queequeg

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Verbiage of words changed for the benefit of those with an obvious agenda.

Also, since it was pointed out that we can interpret any word in the connotation we see fit, I will ensure that I will be extremely diligent in not only watching my own posts, but ensuring that I will watch EVERY SINGLE WORD posted by other members. </div></div>

Oh jeez...
eek.gif
 
G

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Typical hypocrites.
</div></div>

I agree!
Good post.
 

Krav69

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

I'd love to join the Teamsters Union where I'm currently working in Denver, CO.

But I'm not fat, illiterate, lazy, slow, uneducated, alcoholic, with a domestic violence conviction. So, I just can't.

Something we can all aspire to...
 

Queequeg

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Krav69</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd love to join the Teamsters Union where I'm currently working in Denver, CO.

But I'm not fat, illiterate, lazy, slow, uneducated, alcoholic, with a domestic violence conviction. So, I just can't.

Something we can all aspire to... </div></div>

Driving like a maniac is no small qualification, don't sell yourself short!
laugh.gif
 

HOGGHEAD

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

The union has saved the lives of several of my family members in the coal mines. So go ahead and bash with little or no knowledge. Probably 1/2 of you who have anything would have nothing today if it wasn't for unions. And I suppose you are also against the Police unions!! And how many of you are Federal employees?? I am amazed at some of the things a person will say with absolutely no knowledge of what they speak. How many of you would have stood on the picket line in 1950 when my father was shot by a scab!! Probably not too many. Tom.
 

-=boone=-

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HOGGHEAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The union has saved the lives of several of my family members in the coal mines. So go ahead and bash with little or no knowledge. Probably 1/2 of you who have anything would have nothing today if it wasn't for unions. And I suppose you are also against the Police unions!! And how many of you are Federal employees?? I am amazed at some of the things a person will say with absolutely no knowledge of what they speak. How many of you would have stood on the picket line in 1950 when my father was shot by a scab!! Probably not too many. Tom. </div></div>

When unions started they needed to be. However they have evolved into something they should have never become.
 

Mike

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HOGGHEAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The union has saved the lives of several of my family members in the coal mines. So go ahead and bash with little or no knowledge. Probably 1/2 of you who have anything would have nothing today if it wasn't for unions. And I suppose you are also against the Police unions!! And how many of you are Federal employees?? I am amazed at some of the things a person will say with absolutely no knowledge of what they speak. How many of you would have stood on the picket line in 1950 when my father was shot by a scab!! Probably not too many. Tom. </div></div>

Quick question, how do you know how much knowledge I would have of unions? When you can tell me what my knowledge level of unions is, I will tell you how I acquired said knowledge.

How many scabs were shot, or beaten up, or had their car vandalized, or had their lives threatened by union picketers for the simple "crime' of trying to cross a picket line to earn a living and provide food and shelter for their families? I guarantee you more scabs have been harmed by union picketers than vice versa. Just look at the term "scab". Where did that come from? It's not very flattering and I doubt they named themselves "scabs".

This is not the first half of the 20th century. Unions have far outlived their necessity or benefit for anyone except the greedy, fat, lazy workers looking to do less for more.
 

THUNDERBOLT68

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Quick question, how do you know how much knowledge I would have of unions? When you can tell me what my knowledge level of unions is, I will tell you how I acquired said knowledge.

How many scabs were shot, or beaten up, or had their car vandalized, or had their lives threatened by union picketers for the simple "crime' of trying to cross a picket line to earn a living and provide food and shelter for their families? I guarantee you more scabs have been harmed by union picketers than vice versa. Just look at the term "scab". Where did that come from? It's not very flattering and I doubt they named themselves "scabs".

This is not the first half of the 20th century. Unions have far outlived their necessity or benefit for anyone except the greedy, fat, lazy workers looking to do less for more. </div></div>
AMEN BROTHER KEEP IT COMING.....
 

HOGGHEAD

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HOGGHEAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div>

Unions have far outlived their necessity or benefit for anyone except the greedy, fat, lazy workers looking to do less for more. </div></div>

Just that statement alone tells me what you know. I have a dozen friends in the trade unions. I would like to see you call them fat and lazy. You may wel be a bad ass. And you may well be able to whip them. But you better be ready for a fight, because you would get one.

Calling people fat and lazy that you do not even know?? I will let you decide what that means. Tom.
 

JALVI

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Krav69</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd love to join the Teamsters Union where I'm currently working in Denver, CO.

But I'm not fat, illiterate, lazy, slow, uneducated, alcoholic, with a domestic violence conviction. So, I just can't.

Something we can all aspire to... </div></div>

You really don't strike me as a Rocket Scientist though either...

I have been Heavy Construction for almost 20 yrs now, which I think is long enough to be able to say I'm not green behind the ears.

You say you hate Unions, well truth be told, so do I. But back when I was 18, before my eyes opened all I was chasing was pussy, and $$$. That was almost 20 yrs ago.

Now on the flip side of the coin, out here, there is not to many NON Union construction companies capable of bidding and procuring major highway, or heavy infrastructure projects.The company I work for has been around since 1926. Another local company has been around since the 1880's.

I personally don't like what the unions are doing or what they supposedly stand for, but there is BS on both sides of the fence, whether you want to admit it or not. But for you to make those kind of comments, it really highlights your superior intellect.

By the way, I'm a Union Lowbed driver, aka Teamster, Jackass.
 

Mike

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HOGGHEAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HOGGHEAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div>

Unions have far outlived their necessity or benefit for anyone except the greedy, fat, lazy workers looking to do less for more. </div></div>

Just that statement alone tells me what you know. I have a dozen friends in the trade unions. I would like to see you call them fat and lazy. You may wel be a bad ass. And you may well be able to whip them. But you better be ready for a fight, because you would get one.

Calling people fat and lazy that you do not even know?? I will let you decide what that means. Tom. </div></div>

Dozens of friends? I have family members VERY high up in some of the largest unions in the world. My experience come from first hand knowledge.

Let me guess about your "friends", are they the same type of knee breakers that would go after me if I tried to break through the picket line?

I can guarantee you for every union member that you know who does not fit the stereotype of fat and lazy, I can find three who easily espouse it. I've seen it first hand, as have many here.

If I were your friends, I would look in the mirror as to why unions are perceived they way they are and be upset with that perception rather than going after the people who point out the obvious.
 

THUNDERBOLT68

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

Just like everything 10 % is what ruins it for everyone....
And there are 10% of good people in the Unions...LOL...LOL...
 

Queequeg

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HOGGHEAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HOGGHEAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div>

Unions have far outlived their necessity or benefit for anyone except the greedy, fat, lazy workers looking to do less for more. </div></div>

Just that statement alone tells me what you know. I have a dozen friends in the trade unions. I would like to see you call them fat and lazy. You may wel be a bad ass. And you may well be able to whip them. But you better be ready for a fight, because you would get one.

Calling people fat and lazy that you do not even know?? I will let you decide what that means. Tom. </div></div>

I always liked the part where relatives and cronies, often with no experience, got good paying jobs while experienced "outsiders" wasted their time sitting on a bench waiting for a job that never comes.

It's just another insider's racket and comparing it to that of the executive and management pussies hardly qualifies it as necessary.

I'll enjoy living and working in my right to work state and continue to take people as they come.
 

JALVI

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HOGGHEAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HOGGHEAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> </div></div>

Unions have far outlived their necessity or benefit for anyone except the greedy, fat, lazy workers looking to do less for more. </div></div>

Just that statement alone tells me what you know. I have a dozen friends in the trade unions. I would like to see you call them fat and lazy. You may wel be a bad ass. And you may well be able to whip them. But you better be ready for a fight, because you would get one.

Calling people fat and lazy that you do not even know?? I will let you decide what that means. Tom. </div></div>

Dozens of friends? I have family members VERY high up in some of the largest unions in the world. My experience come from first hand knowledge.

Let me guess about your "friends", are they the same type of knee breakers that would go after me if I tried to break through the picket line?

I can guarantee you for every union member that you know who does not fit the stereotype of fat and lazy, I can find three who easily espouse it. I've seen it first hand, as have many here.

If I were your friends, I would look in the mirror as to why unions are perceived they way they are and be upset with that perception rather than going after the people who point out the obvious. </div></div>


<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Dozens of friends? I have family members VERY high up in some of the largest unions in the world. My experience come from first hand knowledge.</span></span>

So lemme guess... Your family members must be VERY, greedy, VERY fat, and VERY lazy, to be VERY high up in some of the largest unions in the world. Your words...Just sayin.


<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Let me guess about your "friends", are they the same type of knee breakers that would go after me if I tried to break through the picket line?</span></span>

I don't know what planet you are on, but those days are over...

<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">I can guarantee you for every union member that you know who does not fit the stereotype of fat and lazy, I can find three who easily espouse it. I've seen it first hand, as have many here. </span></span>

I think your generality is very ignorant. Ive had the priveledge of working with some of the most talented people, on some real hairball projects, that 95% of you Union bashers wouldnt even know how to act. BTW - These were Union projects...

<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">If I were your friends, I would look in the mirror as to why unions are perceived they way they are and be upset with that perception rather than going after the people who point out the obvious. </span></span>

As far as the perception thing, ya it pisses me off. And yes my Union pisses me off but these IGNORANT generalizations gotta go dude. Ive worked too hard, for too long to be buyin that BS.
 

Mike

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Heavy Haulin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Dozens of friends? I have family members VERY high up in some of the largest unions in the world. My experience come from first hand knowledge.</span></span>

So lemme guess... Your family members must be VERY, greedy, VERY fat, and VERY lazy, to be VERY high up in some of the largest unions in the world. Your words...Just sayin.

<span style="font-style: italic">Yes, yes they are. It is a very sore subject and divides the family very much. I step father is enjoying a nice fat Teamster pension right now. The rule of all family gatherings is no "shop talk".</span>

<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Let me guess about your "friends", are they the same type of knee breakers that would go after me if I tried to break through the picket line?</span></span>

I don't know what planet you are on, but those days are over...

<span style="font-style: italic">They may be over, but their history is recent enough to be in our (guessing by your previous experience claims in a prior post). I can remember being young and seeing "enforcement" (my words) gangs, and I'm specifically talking about Teamsters.</span>

<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">I can guarantee you for every union member that you know who does not fit the stereotype of fat and lazy, I can find three who easily espouse it. I've seen it first hand, as have many here. </span></span>

I think your generality is very ignorant. Ive had the priveledge of working with some of the most talented people, on some real hairball projects, that 95% of you Union bashers wouldnt even know how to act. BTW - These were Union projects...
<span style="font-style: italic">
It's a broad brush statement I grant you but I stand behind it. Sure, you've worked on those 10% projects with the "good guys", but I also remember a summer job at a union shop where I was told to stop working as I had to take a mandatory break. I also remember being told how to pace myself so I didn't finish too early.</span>


<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">If I were your friends, I would look in the mirror as to why unions are perceived they way they are and be upset with that perception rather than going after the people who point out the obvious. </span></span>

As far as the perception thing, ya it pisses me off. And yes my Union pisses me off but these IGNORANT generalizations gotta go dude. Ive worked too hard, for too long to be buyin that BS.</div></div>

I bet you have worked your ass off. And I mean that sincerely not sarcastically. But unfortunately for those of you who have worked your ass off, these "generalizations" ring more true that you want to admit. If it was all BS, we wouldn't be having this conversation and stories like the link I originally posted would be an anomaly. The fact of the matter is that unions have extremely negative reputations that were not built on speculation and wild innuendo but actual real life experiences.

Anyone remember a football player from back in the day named Brian "The Boz" Bozworth? Try reading his biography of some of the crap he got away with working in Oklahoma at a Chevy plant during the off-season in college as a UNION autoworker.
 
G

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

Unions like any other organization, can be breeding grounds for corruption.
All of the ingredients are there. Money, power, influence, and little to no regulation.
Sound familiar?

That being said, they have served this country well for a number of years, and they did give people the power and the courage to right some significant wrongs in the way corporate America treats the hard-working people that keep the country moving ahead.

Unions laid the groundwork for new laws that protect workers from abuses by their employers.

I don't know what would happen to these laws if labor unions were to go away completely, but I suspect the same seeds that bred corruption in the unions would find their way into the fertile grounds of the newly empowered corporations.

There is a balance maintained by organized labor in this country. Without it, there would be an uncontrolled shift of power in the other direction.

I don't think that would be good for the country.
 

shankster..

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boone</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HOGGHEAD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The union has saved the lives of several of my family members in the coal mines. So go ahead and bash with little or no knowledge. Probably 1/2 of you who have anything would have nothing today if it wasn't for unions. And I suppose you are also against the Police unions!! And how many of you are Federal employees?? I am amazed at some of the things a person will say with absolutely no knowledge of what they speak. How many of you would have stood on the picket line in 1950 when my father was shot by a scab!! Probably not too many. Tom. </div></div>



When unions started they needed to be. However they have evolved into something they should have never become. </div></div>

Spot on post.
 
G

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

Exceptions are not representative examples. That's why they are called exceptions.
 

shankster..

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Soviets were Union
laugh.gif


I have been in the trades all my life and never been a member of a union. Never even worked on a project where union scale was mandated through the Davis-Bacon act.

In my experience, it is sanctified discrimination. Unions are able to practice nepotism, kickbacks and discrimination with impunity. Just like journalism and academia practice ideological discrimination in their hiring, tenure and admissions practices.

And to be clear, almost without exception, with union workers you pay more for no greater value, the skill level is not better, the productivity is woefully less than non-union and the politicking is unending: like the absurd schedules of their projects.
laugh.gif


The funny thing is the delusion so many members "labor" under that they are being protected!

</div></div>

If you are referring to the unions of the last 30 years... you are correct in your summation.
 

Mike

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tucker301</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Unions like any other organization, can be breeding grounds for corruption.
All of the ingredients are there. Money, power, influence, and little to no regulation.
Sound familiar?

That being said, they have served this country well for a number of years, and they did give people the power and the courage to right some significant wrongs in the way corporate America treats the hard-working people that keep the country moving ahead.

Unions laid the groundwork for new laws that protect workers from abuses by their employers.</div></div>

I agree but believe they have long outlived their usefulness. Norma Rae retired with her fat union pension years ago.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tucker301</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I don't know what would happen to these laws if labor unions were to go away completely, but I suspect the same seeds that bred corruption in the unions would find their way into the fertile grounds of the newly empowered corporations.

There is a balance maintained by organized labor in this country. Without it, there would be an uncontrolled shift of power in the other direction.

</div></div>

Answer a question for me concerning the "vacuum" left for the common worker by the absence of union labor. Why is it that in right to work states, especially here in the south, workers are treated fairly and equitably yet union membership down here is rare to non-existent? I don't see over exploitation of the workers by "the man".

Here's an example of one of the largest automakers in the world with a non-union plant being very successful. I don't see any exploitation here unless by exploitation you mean making a profit while the big three are sucking at the taxpayers tit.

http://www.businessandmedia.org/articles/2008/20081204085242.aspx
 
G

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Answer a question for me concerning the "vacuum" left for the common worker by the absence of union labor. Why is it that in right to work states, especially here in the south, workers are treated fairly and equitably yet union membership down here is rare to non-existent? I don't see over exploitation of the workers by "the man". </div></div>

I believe the existence of organized labor in other states maintains sufficient pressure (or incentive if you prefer) to keep those employers in line.

I used to work for a company that had both union and non-union facilities in various states across the country.
The hourly employees in our plant received adjustments in benefits and compensation that met or barely exceeded those given to the union plants whenever new terms were negotiated.

Without the influence of those unions in the other states, I don't see where the company would have had anywhere near the enthusiasm about those increases that they did.

The beautiful irony of it all is that corporate always told our plant's workers that as long as they remained union-free that they would never have to worry about having a place to work.
The plant closed in 2000, and production was shifted to newer facilities in other states. All of them were union shops.

This is the balance of which I speak.

The same theory applies to the auto factories that have setup outside of the UAW's reach in Southern states. Those employees enjoy a great number of benefits and a decent wage on the backs of the union workers who laid the groundwork years ago, and who still keep that dark cloud looming even today.

Were it not for that history and the possibility of an unhappy labor force turning to the unions for relief, those workers would be far less well off than they are.
 

Mike

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

Tucker, although I could find myself agreeing with some of your points, I still vehemently believe the pendulum is swinging away from the unions and as long as the union "memory" or "threat" is in the mind of corporate management, workers will be treated fairly in non-union shops. Even if unions were to disappear in their entirety (which I readily admit is doubtful) the threat of their return would keep most corporations in check.

I also believe that the common man is growing tired of hearing about the UAW, AFL-CIO, SIU, etc., and their underhanded tactics in arenas outside of their labor contracts. That murmuring will eventually lead either to the demise or to the severe handicapping of the union and it's power base.

But what do I know, I haven't picked the correct lottery numbers yet either.
 

Mike

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tucker301</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> while the big three are sucking at the taxpayers tit.
</div></div>

I was thinking it was just two.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1421298/ford_motor_company_their_own_stimulus.html?cat=3</div></div>

The last I recall the CEO's of the big three were called on the carpet. And although Ford was not in need, weren't they still given money?

Also, does it make it OK if it's only the big two? Two or three, it is still wrong.
 
G

Guest

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

I don't think corporate America has a very long memory. especially when they're blinded by greed.

What did Wall Street do while under the threat of the return of regulation? They got drunk off their ass, stripped down to their skivvies, and swam in the fountain of corruption and greed. When the adults noticed what they were doing, they pissed in the fountain and said it wasn't their fault.

I haven't done well at the lotto either, but I've been letting the machine pick the numbers. Maybe I should come up with some on my own.
 
G

Guest

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Also, does it make it OK if it's only the big two? Two or three, it is still wrong. </div></div>

Trust me. I was just against socially subsidized capitalism as you are. I said let them die.

But Ford was doing something that the other two weren't. Yet they were UAW too. So, at least in the context of this discussion, I don't think the other two were failing entirely because of the labor force. I think it was a factor, but it wasn't the whole pie.
 
G

Guest

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

Mike,
I enjoyed the discussion.

I have to go and design a birthday cake for my dad's 80th now.

Be well.
 

JALVI

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tucker301</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Also, does it make it OK if it's only the big two? Two or three, it is still wrong. </div></div>

Trust me. I was just against socially subsidized capitalism as you are. I said let them die.

But Ford was doing something that the other two weren't. Yet they were UAW too. So, at least in the context of this discussion, I don't think the other two were failing entirely because of the labor force. I think it was a factor, but it wasn't the whole pie. </div></div>


+1 and Good luck on the cake.
 

Rootshot

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Mar 28, 2006
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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

I can thank unions for introducing me to firearms. My father's company was involved in a strike with the teamsters. After his colleague's house had a mysterious drive-by shooting in the middle of the night we thought it wise to arm ourselves. I had the pleasure of keeping an AK under my bed as a teenager in case we had unexpected union visitors.

--Rootshot
 

Rob01

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

Being a Union Firefighter of IAFF F219 and NAGE I am very glad to have the union on our side. Management would be running over us and screwing us left and right if we didn't have the Union to be our collective voice in bargaining and other situations.

Say what you will about unions as all our different but I am damn glad to have ours.
 

ZLBubba

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Jan 15, 2009
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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

This discussion is ignoring an ENORMOUS amount of economic and social complexity in respect to collective bargaining and labor. There are good unions, and there are bad unions. There conscientious workers both in and out of unions. By generalizing all unions as fat, lazy, and corrupt, you blind yourself to understanding that the situation is never as cut and dried as you want to believe.

As a matter of fact, union strength historically has correlated more with the expansion of the middle class than most other factors. Unions demanding higher wages, benefits, and working conditions in their respective industries from 1947 to the early 80s did more to strengthen the middle class than any almost other single factor. Data shows that the average American income doubled from $22k to $44k during that time period. Growth of the US economy was strong as well, largely due to the increased demand caused by the increased consumption of the middle class. As the middle class earns, it spends, thus pushing the cycle of economic growth. This is why Bernanke was demanding Congress to reinstitute the unemployment benefits a couple days ago; that action is guaranteed to stimulate demand, thus strengthening the US economy.

The weakening of labor unions around 1980, through their own organizational deficiencies and through a ideological shift among the working class compromising their faith in collective bargaining, began increasing the ever-widening gap between the wealthy and the poor in the US. Between 1947 and 1973, median family income grew at 2.7%; after 1980, median family income only grew at 0.7% which has persisted until today (much of the data between 1973 is skewed due to the Oil Crisis and subsequent recovery). What's remarkable is that we are now back to a haves vs. have nots situation that existed at the beginning of the New Deal.

The other side of the coin is that if corporations regulated themselves and cared more for their employees than their bottom line, the necessity of unions would greatly diminish. Look at the deplorable mine conditions that caused the deaths of 29 mingers in the spring. Reference the oil disaster in the Gulf when BP knew it was disregarding safety standards. How about the bundled mortages that brokerage firms sold to their clients, all the while knowing the funds were completely toxic and were betting against them. It's pretty hard to defend corporate responsibility these days. We are emerging from an economic crisis caused by corporations run amuck and wholly inadequate government regulation. The one lesson we must learn from the last three years is that unchecked capitalism is no better than the other economic models we rail against.

The bottom line is: these discussions are incredibly complex and nuanced. The cliche platitudes and anecdotal evidence often shared do nothing but further undermine the use of real data to understand complex policy issues. Let's talk about shooting on this site, and leave these kinds of discussions for other fora.
 

RADcustom

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Jun 1, 2008
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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MEAT4272</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Alot of the posts in this thread are from people who are ignorant to historical facts. Do you folks claiming to hate unions even realize it was the orgainized labor movement fighting & dying for fair wages and better working conditions that brought us what we have today? Imagine what your boss could, or would get away with if unions had not paved the way to these better working conditions and fair wages. The 40 hour work week with weekends off from work to spend with your family, that too has been brought to you by organized labor, don't say thanks... just enjoy it !

I will agree that some unions do have corrupt union officials and those are the union offices ruining it for the rest. </div></div>

Which is why this statement is so true. Stop living in the past.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When unions started they needed to be. However they have evolved into something they should have never become. </div></div>
 

JLP2003

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Jan 26, 2010
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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

I can only speak about the unions that I run across in my line of work (petrochemical industry) but for the most part, all they do is cause massive bloat. Electricians, pipefitters, operators etc. are all contract positions whenever the companies can afford it.

We recently had an operator (whose union is now part of USW) strike in the area because these guys who make six figures a year sleeping in front of a computer screen decided they wanted cradle to grave health insurance for their spouses too!

The unions have for the most part (in my area) forgotten the old saying that pigs get fed while hogs get slaughtered. Now that the refineries\chem plants have gone to contractor services, contractors are competing against each other, and a job that might have employed 8 electricians now employs one, with a bilingual foreman and 6 migrant workers.

Just my two cents.
 

THUNDERBOLT68

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Re: Another Reason I Hate Unions

Let me say this first so you know the side I am on. I HATE UNION...
What all of you are not understanding is the people that have the<span style="font-size: 14pt"> power </span>and <span style="font-size: 14pt">money</span> <span style="font-size: 14pt">win</span>....
It is all about money. If we did not have the unions jacking up prices then we would ( all ) have lower cost...
We common people will just pay more for items. It is like this crap Obama is spouting out. A person making less than 250,000.00 will not see a tax increase. Well, I hate to say it , but because what he is doing the cost of products are goin up. Hence, I might not be getting taxed by governmemt but I am losing disposable income.
It all trickles down.... The gov't regulates, the business tack it on, and we the working people pay for it. Yes unions bargin for their little group to get more, and all of the people get to pay for it.
If you do not think the cost of unions do not get passed on you are living in fantacy land.