Rifle Scopes Another "which scope thread" for LEO

[ptrlcop]

I generally hate the "which scope" threads. However, I hope this one is a little more focused to generate some good discussion and not just because I am to lazy to research on my own.

I am a LE sniper who is currently exploring a 16inch .308(mega maten, LMT MWS, OBR) to supplement or even replace my bolt gun. After having shot a JP and OBR I see a lot of merit to the idea. Anyway, that is not really the topic of this post.
I am looking at optics for this concept rifle. Naturally there are a lot of choices, but I have not yet found one that I consider perfect. Here are a list of specs that loosely fit what I am looking for:

3ish-15ish power(my current scope is 5.5-22 I often want lower power and rarely use over 18)
40-50mm Objective( I really think 44 is the sweet spot, my current 56 is way overboard)
30oz or less
Side parallax adjustment
Low profile and or capped windage(hopefully stays out of the way of an T1 in a 45 degree offset mount)
Thickish, non cluttered, possibly illuminated reticle(I really like the firedot TMR on my VX3 Patrol)
Budget: This is on my own dime, I can't really see me being able to put more than 2k into this. I am open to looking used.

Currently here are the scopes I am looking at(but am also looking to expand the list):

Nightforce NXS F1 3.5-15X50; Expensive and on the large side but likely bombproof
Leupold MK 6 3-18X44 w/tmr; Leo price is great, not illuminated and I fear how usable the TMR will be in low light at lower magnification
US Optics SN-3 3.2-17; On the larger side
Vortex Viper PST 4-16; This was on the JP I recently shot and it was impressive, low price, Turrets are HUGE.
March F Tactical 3-24x42

Please remember the uses of this scope which are. To visually intrude on a location to collect information. To place shots within the 4inch cranial vault from 15-300yds. My last few hide sites were 38, 47, and 40yds.

Please suggest any scopes I have missed, comment on the ones I listed, and sharpshoot my logic!

 

[fdkay]

You don't say if you'll consider SFP scopes or not.

I'm a FFP mil/mil guy so here goes:
With a FFP scope, you'll really want illumination, otherwise the new SS 3-15 would be here.

Around 800 - Weaver 3-15x Illuminated EMD
Around 1000 - Bushnell 3-12x Illuminated BRT
Around 1600 - IOR 4-16 FFP Illuminated

A viable option is the SS 5-20x Illuminated model

 

[ptrlcop]

You don't say if you'll consider SFP scopes or not.

You are right. Honestly, I think a SFP would work better in my situation as I dont often use my reticle for ranging or even calling corrections.

 

[eddiemac]

I would look for a used SFP Nightforce 3-15 MLR or MOAR reticle (their reticles are thicker than the NPr1 or NPR2). They are tough scopes with good glass.

 

[hugh_d]

+1 for the nf 2.5 x 10 x 32

 

[Red_Beard]

If you can swing it, the march is an incredible scope. The glass is a strong step above the others you mentioned and if you are spending a lot of time looking through it in more of an observation role, it would be my choice for sure. The only question mark with the March is whether or not it will be as durable. I haven't heard reports of them breaking, but then again I also haven't heard of them still working after taking a bullet.

 

[FLIGHT762]

A SFP scope will work very well for L/E use. Nearly all engagements are short range, 100 yards or less. A Nightforce SFP 3.5-15 with a MLR reticle is a good scope. I believe a scope for L/E use should have an illuminated reticle. The only downside to the Nightforce is their illumination is set to one setting and cannot be changed in the field. I found with mine, I took it out into low light and adjusted the illumination to less than the factory setting. It does work.

I really do like the MLR reticle. A 100 yard zero with 168 308 ammo using a 1/2 MIL hash holdover will give you center hits at 200 yards. Matching Reticle and turrets are nice, but I used mine for many years with the MLR with MOA turrets. You can find a lot of these scopes used at reasonable prices.

To get our shooters to understand trajectory, holdovers and dialing, we took our guys out occasionally and shoot out to 600 yards, having them dope their rifles at 200,300,400,500and 600 yards. Realistically, a SWAT Command will likely never allow a shot those distances, but it's great practice and gives the shooters confidence.

We even started a little competition and issuing a "MOA OPERATOR" tab if the shooters shot MOA out to those ranges.

Anyway, FFP scopes are not necessary for the L/E operator.

 

[dk-1]

Coming from 10+ years of LEO experience, 5 years of that as a shooter on our regional SWAT team, avid long range shooter/hunter on my own time........ My vote would be for the Mark 6 Leupold. I currently run that scope on my personal .260 and love it. I have shot at a steel plate painted white from 500-1000 yards by the moon light and/or a small LED book light placed just in front of the target. With no illumination in the reticle it can be hard, or impossible, to see the reticle outside of having the white backdrop, BUT, with enough light to make positive identification of the target you would certainly be able to see the reticle. I love the open center of the TMR reticle for precise targeting and it is my favorite of all the non-Horus reticles. In all my experience, I have never NEEDED an illuminated reticle, but YMMV. The LEO pricing Leupold offers is great!! My second choice, if you are really set on an illuminated reticle, would be the Leupold Mark 4 LRT 3.5-10X40 illuminated TMR with M3 turrets. I have had NF in the past and was not satisfied so I went back to Leupold.

Now, onto the discussion of LE Snipers and their roles, I think it really depends on your AO. If you work in any sort of a rural area a 300+ yard shot would not be out of the question. During trainings I often set up my position between 200 and 300 yards from the target location. From past incidents in my agency, Deputies have been pinned down by gun fire in a marijuana garden. If I responded to a situation like that with my bolt gun, I would look for a clear shot from 600+ yards away. Any active shooter type calls with a good backstop and no bystanders close by would be the perfect candidate for a long range LE engagement. Think of this chris dorner A-Hole recently, he was running around in the San Bernardino mountain area around Big bear (IIRC), if he was isolated in the mountainous terrain and a good shooter was presented with the opportunity to engage him from some distance (fleeing felon with likely hood of further public danger) .......

I'm a firm believer that LE shooters should train to their weapons capability and beyond, not necessarily believing they would have an engagement at 1K, but after consistently shooting a 14"x21" plate at 1k+, 250 yards seems like child’s play. You learn to hone your skills and any flaws are exaggerated at longer distances. You learn the weapon/ammo/optic/shooter limitations and capabilities. It also builds confidence in the shooters own abilities and addresses areas which may need further training. It will also build courtroom credibility when an officer/deputy brings his/her data book into court after a shooting at 87 yards showing numerous successful training engagements at 600-1,000 yards. One last point, what about the possibility of an active shooter "sniping" people from the town square clock tower with a scoped rifle? Wouldn't you want your local SWAT guys to be able to handle business?

Sorry for the thread hijack.

 

[hrfunk]

Dk, I agree with the points you made above. You and I are very like-minded in terms of LE Sniper operations and training. OP-I just went through the same mental exercise as you are. 4 days ago, I picked up my new scope, mounted it, and zeroed it. Total time my rifle was out of service was 2 hours. I selected a Leupold Mark 4, 4.5-14X50 TMR. Hit me with a PM if you'd like to know why I went with it.

Good Luck
HRF

 

[LongRifle75]

Now, onto the discussion of LE Snipers and their roles, I think it really depends on your AO. If you work in any sort of a rural area a 300+ yard shot would not be out of the question. During trainings I often set up my position between 200 and 300 yards from the target location. From past incidents in my agency, Deputies have been pinned down by gun fire in a marijuana garden. If I responded to a situation like that with my bolt gun, I would look for a clear shot from 600+ yards away. Any active shooter type calls with a good backstop and no bystanders close by would be the perfect candidate for a long range LE engagement. Think of this chris dorner A-Hole recently, he was running around in the San Bernardino mountain area around Big bear (IIRC), if he was isolated in the mountainous terrain and a good shooter was presented with the opportunity to engage him from some distance (fleeing felon with likely hood of further public danger) .......

I'm a firm believer that LE shooters should train to their weapons capability and beyond, not necessarily believing they would have an engagement at 1K, but after consistently shooting a 14"x21" plate at 1k+, 250 yards seems like child’s play. You learn to hone your skills and any flaws are exaggerated at longer distances. You learn the weapon/ammo/optic/shooter limitations and capabilities. It also builds confidence in the shooters own abilities and addresses areas which may need further training. It will also build courtroom credibility when an officer/deputy brings his/her data book into court after a shooting at 87 yards showing numerous successful training engagements at 600-1,000 yards. One last point, what about the possibility of an active shooter "sniping" people from the town square clock tower with a scoped rifle? Wouldn't you want your local SWAT guys to be able to handle business?

I was just thinking the exact same thing. You and I are very like minded. Im an SRT Sniper in a rural area and 200-300yd shots would not be an uncommon occurence for me. Especially when sometimes its me and a spotter or sometimes just even ME out there alone. When you factor in familys in the area that might also be hostile if I can stay farther away and hidden so much the better. Amen to what you said and awesome points!

 

[Dkindels]

March makes a 2.5-25 tactical with zero stop and SFP. Illumination available and various reticles. They are about the lightest you can get with all the features.

 

[Brabo]

Premier LT might be another one to look at. I was in the same boat and went with the Steiner 4-16 although it's a little big to fit your requirements.

 

[jasonZ]

I used a Schmidt & Bender 5-25x56 at a recent LE sniper school (my first, so I'm pretty new to this). For a closer shot, which is typical, I'd have preferred a lower mag than this. We shot to 600yds and I absolutely loved it at that distance. I was leaps and bounds ahead of the others. Most were using Leupold 3.5-10x40 scopes. Several complained that about all they could do was quarter up the target. I could still use the same POA as before. I'd honestly think 3-15 would be pretty decent. I work for a municipality, so likely a shot would be under 100yds. I'd still be pretty comfortable stretching that to 4-600yds with a 15x optic I suspect. It may not be able to be a cranial vault shot though. I don't think, at this point in my career, that I'd take a 600yd hostage type shot! I was looking at the new SWFA optic, but I'm going with the Bushnell 3-12x44 ffp.

I do agree that a SFP optic would be just fine to 5-600yds. Once beyond that, a FFP would be superior. That's the only thing about an ffp I don't really like is that the reticle gets so thin. Again I'm limited in experience and knowledge with the sniping and long range shooting arena, but I'm learning and not without at least some knowledge of what it takes.

Looking forward to following this thread more. Thanks, Jason

 

[LongRifle75]

When I went through Sniper School I had an old Springfield Armory 4-14x56 scope. On 14 power at 600yds it was plenty enough to shoot a silhouette target and hit it just fine. The target was magnified plenty. I went 10 for 10, all chest shots.

 

[dk-1]

Again, your requirements minus illumination fit the bill perfectly for the 3-18X44 Mark 6. The TMR is a great reticle, has the PERFECT magnification range, it's lightwieght, tuff as nails, tracks true (at least my sample), has capped windage knob, zero stop, locking turret, etc, etc..... Great LEO pricing, made in the USA.

 

[ptrlcop]

Again, your requirements minus illumination fit the bill perfectly for the 3-18X44 Mark 6. The TMR is a great reticle, has the PERFECT magnification range, it's lightwieght, tuff as nails, tracks true (at least my sample), has capped windage knob, zero stop, locking turret, etc, etc..... Great LEO pricing, made in the USA.

I'll be honest, I want the MK 6, I was just worried about seeing the reticle at 3x in low light....now if I could convince the deputy chief to order that PVS 27 I asked for, I wouldn't be worried at all!

 

[dk-1]

I'll be honest, I want the MK 6, I was just worried about seeing the reticle at 3x in low light....now if I could convince the deputy chief to order that PVS 27 I asked for, I wouldn't be worried at all!

I hear ya.... But consider this, if you have the scope on low mag you probably aren't taking a precision shot. It wouldn't be all that hard to center the target using the bold stadia posts. I'll try to get a pic of the scope on 3 power, then you can decide.

 

[dk-1]

Here ya go:
3x

3x

6x

9x

 

[FLIGHT762]

I'm a big fan of having illumination. I had many nighttime deployments. It's better to have it and not need it than not to have it and need it. This is also why I believe a SFP scope works really well for L/E tactical. It's also good to have a low end in the 3-4 power range. I've had a number of deployments that were way too close for my comfort, but we have to do what we have to do, that's why SFP is okay, reticle stays the same throughout the range. Some guys make the mistake of buying a scope with too much power for the mission, especially if you are using FFP. Think about what your primary deployment ranges are and and go from there.

I spent 27 years on our tactical team, a lot more years than the average operator. My first FBI sniper school was in the 1980's. There's been a lot of equipment changes over the years. A lot of good equipment to choose from now.

I worked in an urban area where regular deployments were short distances. My choice in optics may be a little different than the country boys where deployment ranges can be much, much longer. For all of the downsides of the Leupold Mark 4 scopes with mismatching turrets / reticles and in SFP, they work pretty well for L/E use since we don't do a lot of dialing under 200 yards. I like the MLR / TMR / P4F styles of reticles that have 1/2 MIL hashes.

Look over your mission's specifics and pick an optic that will fit your mission's objectives.

 

[dk-1]

I'm a big fan of having illumination. I had many nighttime deployments. It's better to have it and not need it than not to have it and need it. This is also why I believe a SFP scope works really well for L/E tactical. It's also good to have a low end in the 3-4 power range. I've had a number of deployments that were way too close for my comfort, but we have to do what we have to do, that's why SFP is okay, reticle stays the same throughout the range. Some guys make the mistake of buying a scope with too much power for the mission, especially if you are using FFP. Think about what your primary deployment ranges are and and go from there.

I spent 27 years on our tactical team, a lot more years than the average operator. My first FBI sniper school was in the 1980's. There's been a lot of equipment changes over the years. A lot of good equipment to choose from now.

I worked in an urban area where regular deployments were short distances. My choice in optics may be a little different than the country boys where deployment ranges can be much, much longer. For all of the downsides of the Leupold Mark 4 scopes with mismatching turrets / reticles and in SFP, they work pretty well for L/E use since we don't do a lot of dialing under 200 yards. I like the MLR / TMR / P4F styles of reticles that have 1/2 MIL hashes.

Look over your mission's specifics and pick an optic that will fit your mission's objectives.

^^^ this is sound advise. I don't disagree with what you are saying, just somewhat different perspectives. In the end the goals are the same, but the devil is in the details.