Gunsmithing Any thoughts on structured barrels?

[drew hopkinth]

After reading through this thread, I’m still seriously doubtful about the harmonic/“node” aspect of this design. AB/Litz found that tuners don’t have a statistically significant impact on a rifle’s performance, and a barrel does not start deflecting until after the bullet leaves the muzzle. knowing those two facts makes me think that a “harmonically dead” barrel would make zero difference.

Additionally, the amount of unnecessary jargon in the product descriptions and comments made by multiple users here is throwing up red flags all over the place. Definitely seems like snake oil.

Hopefully the AB guys test this like they did tuners.

 

[John Baker]

After reading through this thread, I’m still seriously doubtful about the harmonic/“node” aspect of this design. AB/Litz found that tuners don’t have a statistically significant impact on a rifle’s performance, and a barrel does not start deflecting until after the bullet leaves the muzzle. knowing those two facts makes me think that a “harmonically dead” barrel would make zero difference.

Additionally, the amount of unnecessary jargon in the product descriptions and comments made by multiple users here is throwing up red flags all over the place. Definitely seems like snake oil.

Hopefully the AB guys test this like they did tuners.

Sounds like the Reddit Post. Your words match that forum topic exactly. The same forum that won't let a me respond to: something says you already knew that. Lucky for me this is not Reddit.

Have you ever shot one of our barrels? NO.
Yet you continue to speak about something you know nothing about.
Are you really going to say all of the people who have bought these- and continued to buy- are all "snake oil"? Or just ignorant/stupid/non-versed? Third party test? All "snake oil".
How many harmonic tools have you built? To my knowledge AB has built zero. Tested Zero. Cannot tell us what attributes drive a wave.
Are you really going to sit there and tell me a metal object sits in space as an "absolute" and is not effected by outside forces for "blank micro seconds"? Or tell me that metal objects don't deform under stress? OH.. the bullet is faster than the stress event.

My issues with your premises- OBJECTIVE or not- is you are claiming the bullet is faster than any mechanical wave presented.
Can you tell us how fast a wave moves thru metal? A whole lot faster than a bullet.
How much torque does it take to twist a barrel?
How much force is needed to lengthen a barrel?
Let me fill you in on a little secret- deformation is not a constant as applied to a wave form shape.
Are you really saying that when those forces are applied the barrel stays in its "current state" and does not react until the bullet leaves the barrel.
You admit that the barrel moves "after" the bullet leaves: back to how fast does a wave move in metal? How can you only measure the apparent outside position of a device at one point in space and claim full knowledge. NOT SAYING AB did a bad job- the full presentation of proof why harmonics do not matter appears to be lacking a bit. Their system is NOT measuring all aspects of the barrel.

Do tuners move groups? YES.
AB posted a picture of a bullet leaving the muzzle. Is the discrimination of the camera capable of measuring "what movement"?
Can that picture tell me what the rest of the barrel is doing? NO Its a single picture. Can their picture describe the deformation event in the barrel? NO. Immediate elongation within the bore? NO. Are you really going to tell me adding 100"s of pounds of mechanical pressure to a thread does not twist the object? That the bullet passes thru the barrel - the barrel does not move- the bullet leaves the barrel and then the barrel goes- "OH something was in my bore"? At what length does the previous sinosoidal event take place? That length to height deviation?

Please explain why ladder test matter? Bullet jump? Bullet weight impact on target? Why our barrels can shoot a huge variation in weights and velocities and have very little left or right throw/deviation? Since you have not shot our barrel - you are the one speaking out of ignorance.

How long has harmonics been a "part of shooting"? A part of many engineering principles? One statement "harmonics don't matter" and its gospel? Where is their data? Testing methods and so forth? While I am told I can't use objective evidence: to disprove a long standing theory takes more than a picture or two. However, a complete lack of evidence against us is 100% lacking.

Have you ever "stretched a bolt"? Can you tell me how little torque it takes to stretch. By your premises if I use a high speed camera- twist the object- it should delay twisting form for a "time period" (bullet in a barrel).

Lets say I have measured wave fronts of harmonics- which I developed a test for- Please explain to me why the wave front changes with design changes to the tooling? Or is wave front and cancellation theories garbage too? Can you tell me where the peak amplitudes of the wave front will exists within a "round object"? What an actual NODE is? Can you explain to me why the wave front will start immediately in its form and not "crawl" with time to its form? Oh- I am using interferometric methodology in this testing.

I was told to stop being "belligerent" when telling people to bring their guns and shoot.
The test is a 300cal.
Bullet weights of 150-230+
Velocities from 2200 to 3400+
Your standard barrel outshoots ours- I will pull my posts.
Its only OBJECTIVE evidence.
When are you showing up?
Belligerent- at some point when the only people who say your product is "snake oil" have never shot or seen data concerning our barrel and just note anything said is "jargon"... step up and bring it.

 

[R_A_W]

Actually we have tested two Cerakote products- with the intent of not insulating or holding heat in. One is black one is a gun grey. Both met the original bare barrel heat dissipation. We worked from a starting point of mid three hundreds and timed cool down with temp. The black actually has an advantage as that material does not "sun soak" to the same degree as the grey or bare barrel.

Really surprised to read this. I always assumed Cerakote would insulate.

Was this a standard Cerakote or one of Cerakote's high thermal emissivity products?

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

My buddy shoots structured barrels. One of them doesn't shoot for shit, the other is ok. There was a guy posting a few days ago that said his won't shoot for shit either. Considering its about $2K per barrel, even so if there was some magic to it everyone who competes would be using them. Yet no one but fringe outskirts and people with more money than skill to burn are using them.

 

[LeftyJason]

Recent discussion with tuners that might be nice to get @John Baker to consider weighing in on. Yes it gets a little squirrelly (not Hide Squirrels) but trying to figure out some knowledge.

Barrel Tuners and Bryan Litz’s vol. 3

Not sure how many folks have read Modern Adv in Long Range Shooting but it’s a great chapter on Barrel Tuners is really well done and somewhat funny / validating. The general gist being that they, being AB and Team, used a few various type of tuners one being from Cortina. It’s mentioned they...

www.snipershide.com

 

[drew hopkinth]

Sounds like the Reddit Post. Your words match that forum topic exactly. The same forum that won't let a me respond to: something says you already knew that. Lucky for me this is not Reddit.

Have you ever shot one of our barrels? NO.
Yet you continue to speak about something you know nothing about.
Are you really going to say all of the people who have bought these- and continued to buy- are all "snake oil"? Or just ignorant/stupid/non-versed? Third party test? All "snake oil".
How many harmonic tools have you built? To my knowledge AB has built zero. Tested Zero. Cannot tell us what attributes drive a wave.
Are you really going to sit there and tell me a metal object sits in space as an "absolute" and is not effected by outside forces for "blank micro seconds"? Or tell me that metal objects don't deform under stress? OH.. the bullet is faster than the stress event.

My issues with your premises- OBJECTIVE or not- is you are claiming the bullet is faster than any mechanical wave presented.
Can you tell us how fast a wave moves thru metal? A whole lot faster than a bullet.
How much torque does it take to twist a barrel?
How much force is needed to lengthen a barrel?
Let me fill you in on a little secret- deformation is not a constant as applied to a wave form shape.
Are you really saying that when those forces are applied the barrel stays in its "current state" and does not react until the bullet leaves the barrel.
You admit that the barrel moves "after" the bullet leaves: back to how fast does a wave move in metal? How can you only measure the apparent outside position of a device at one point in space and claim full knowledge. NOT SAYING AB did a bad job- the full presentation of proof why harmonics do not matter appears to be lacking a bit. Their system is NOT measuring all aspects of the barrel.

Do tuners move groups? YES.
AB posted a picture of a bullet leaving the muzzle. Is the discrimination of the camera capable of measuring "what movement"?
Can that picture tell me what the rest of the barrel is doing? NO Its a single picture. Can their picture describe the deformation event in the barrel? NO. Immediate elongation within the bore? NO. Are you really going to tell me adding 100"s of pounds of mechanical pressure to a thread does not twist the object? That the bullet passes thru the barrel - the barrel does not move- the bullet leaves the barrel and then the barrel goes- "OH something was in my bore"? At what length does the previous sinosoidal event take place? That length to height deviation?

Please explain why ladder test matter? Bullet jump? Bullet weight impact on target? Why our barrels can shoot a huge variation in weights and velocities and have very little left or right throw/deviation? Since you have not shot our barrel - you are the one speaking out of ignorance.

How long has harmonics been a "part of shooting"? A part of many engineering principles? One statement "harmonics don't matter" and its gospel? Where is their data? Testing methods and so forth? While I am told I can't use objective evidence: to disprove a long standing theory takes more than a picture or two. However, a complete lack of evidence against us is 100% lacking.

Have you ever "stretched a bolt"? Can you tell me how little torque it takes to stretch. By your premises if I use a high speed camera- twist the object- it should delay twisting form for a "time period" (bullet in a barrel).

Lets say I have measured wave fronts of harmonics- which I developed a test for- Please explain to me why the wave front changes with design changes to the tooling? Or is wave front and cancellation theories garbage too? Can you tell me where the peak amplitudes of the wave front will exists within a "round object"? What an actual NODE is? Can you explain to me why the wave front will start immediately in its form and not "crawl" with time to its form? Oh- I am using interferometric methodology in this testing.

I was told to stop being "belligerent" when telling people to bring their guns and shoot.
The test is a 300cal.
Bullet weights of 150-230+
Velocities from 2200 to 3400+
Your standard barrel outshoots ours- I will pull my posts.
Its only OBJECTIVE evidence.
When are you showing up?
Belligerent- at some point when the only people who say your product is "snake oil" have never shot or seen data concerning our barrel and just note anything said is "jargon"... step up and bring it.

AB tested tuners, which are claimed to modify harmonics through the varied position of a mass at the end of the barrel. Found zero statistical significance as to their effectiveness WRT accuracy. There is no doubt that the same conclusion would happen with your barrel. It’s also been shown using accelerometers that barrel deflection does not occur to any meaningful amount (orders of magnitude smaller than overall recoil) until after bullet exit. You can go on and on about unrelated “analogies” but that doesn’t make you correct, it just makes you appear bloviating.

Your essay of an answer (and your website) is full of fantastical claims that remain completely unquantified and unproven (recoil reduction, “free velocity”, greater barrel life, et al). There is a reason for that - they can’t be proven to be statistically significant.

 

[drew hopkinth]

Also the test of 30 cal, 150-230+gr, 2200-3400fps? Fucking stupid. “If your gun doesn’t shoot 300blk to 30 XC power loads well it’s not a good design” now I know you’re just trolling people out of $2k

 

[John Baker]

My buddy shoots structured barrels. One of them doesn't shoot for shit, the other is ok. There was a guy posting a few days ago that said his won't shoot for shit either. Considering its about $2K per barrel, even so if there was some magic to it everyone who competes would be using them. Yet no one but fringe outskirts and people with more money than skill to burn are using them.

Drew- please have them contact us.
Where is the other "post" about the barrel?
We are aware of five barrels that did not shoot:
One was a twist rate issue- we were told to make a 9t and it needed a 7.5t
Two others had serious cleaning issues- as in smooth bore with so much copper.
Two had horrific chamber jobs.
We sent surveys out to all purchasers a few months back- no negative responses.
Finally- you need to investigate the root cause. We are also aware of barrels with short lives.

 

[John Baker]

AB tested tuners, which are claimed to modify harmonics through the varied position of a mass at the end of the barrel. Found zero statistical significance as to their effectiveness WRT accuracy. There is no doubt that the same conclusion would happen with your barrel. It’s also been shown using accelerometers that barrel deflection does not occur to any meaningful amount (orders of magnitude smaller than overall recoil) until after bullet exit. You can go on and on about unrelated “analogies” but that doesn’t make you correct, it just makes you appear bloviating.

Your essay of an answer (and your website) is full of fantastical claims that remain completely unquantified and unproven (recoil reduction, “free velocity”, greater barrel life, et al). There is a reason for that - they can’t be proven to be statistically significant.

Did the tuners change the group size or position?

Simply- why do ladder test even matter then?

Unrelated analogies? Measuring wave front is an unrelated analogy?
Did your accelerometer measure the deviation, and accelerations that would have to occur due to barrel droop? Please don't tell me I am full of it concerning barrel droop unless gravity stopped working.
Of course it would be magnitudes of order smaller than overall recoil.
DID AB MEASURE MATERIAL DEFORMATION? YES OR NO?
WHAT IS THE DISCRIMINATION OF THE CAMERA USED?
HOW MANY POINTS SIMULTANEOUSLY?
HOW DID YOU MEASURE INTERIOR DEFORMATION?
DID YOU PLOT THE BULLETS PATH- SMOOTH OR RATCHET?
WAS THE BORE PERFECTLY STRAIGHT? OR DID IT HAVE A CURVE? WHICH WOULD IMPLY ACCELERATION IN SOME DIRECTION OTHER THAN THE BORE CENTER LINE.
ARE YOU REALLY GOING TO SIT THERE AND TELL ME WHAT WE MEASURED FOR WAVE FRONT CONCERNING HARMONICS WAS ALL BULLS..T?
YOU ALREADY TOLD US THE COMPUTER SIMULATIONS (Done by an aeronautical firm specializing in crashes) WERE WORTHLESS.
An external accelerometer tells me nothing about the interior.
You take liberties in my comments: its obvious you think I am fucking stupid. With that - there should be need for load development and you have not provided an argument of why it is not needed if the barrel has nothing to do with anything.
Why do some guns only shoot specific loads (inverse question)?
We want to produce a product that is not a DIVA.
Of course I know you have machined 1000's of barrels and will tell us all it is our imagination that materials are not the same from different barrel manufactures and vibration unique to given barrel suppliers are also our imagination.

Now I know I will get nowhere with you. That is fine. If we post a third party observation or measurement, or if other shooters post their findings you will only tell us all we are fucking stupid. Your prerogative. However, calling a large swath of shooters (those who believe in harmonics) stupid sounds like a good way to loose business.

 

[R_A_W]

K I’m going to respond the same way

Really surprised to read this. I always assumed Cerakote would insulate.

Was this a standard Cerakote or one of Cerakote's high thermal emissivity products?

WHICH CERAKOTES

 

[John Baker]

Really surprised to read this. I always assumed Cerakote would insulate.

Was this a standard Cerakote or one of Cerakote's high thermal emissivity products?

One of their specialty products. Unfortunately their data was a bit - wanting.
We set rods into an oven, established and elevated temperature soak (250deg I believe) then measured cool down periods.
Once here we then did sun soaking test with the different finishes as compared to sandblasted surfaces (polished surfaces are just plain hot) and again measured both time to ambient and time to cool. Surprisingly their "black" version outperformed their "grey" version.
Other products - insulate as measured to date.

 

[drew hopkinth]

You are right about one thing: there is no need for load development. The only places nodes exist is in the magical land of low sample size “analysis”. Raise your sample size and you’ll see the nodes disappear. Ladder tests should only be done for safety reasons, not for finding a mythical accuracy node. It’s hilarious how much mythology and pseudoscience you’re trying to cling to in order to market this barrel.

 

[John Baker]

Recent discussion with tuners that might be nice to get @John Baker to consider weighing in on. Yes it gets a little squirrelly (not Hide Squirrels) but trying to figure out some knowledge.

Barrel Tuners and Bryan Litz’s vol. 3

Not sure how many folks have read Modern Adv in Long Range Shooting but it’s a great chapter on Barrel Tuners is really well done and somewhat funny / validating. The general gist being that they, being AB and Team, used a few various type of tuners one being from Cortina. It’s mentioned they...

www.snipershide.com

Knowledge.
Thank you.

Concerning tuners: you cannot change mass, location of mass, heat, internal forces and say it has no effect on the barrel.
I will wade into that forum in a bit...

 

[John Baker]

You are right about one thing: there is no need for load development. The only places nodes exist is in the magical land of low sample size “analysis”. Raise your sample size and you’ll see the nodes disappear. Ladder tests should only be done for safety reasons, not for finding a mythical accuracy node. It’s hilarious how much mythology and pseudoscience you’re trying to cling to in order to market this barrel.

OK- I am listening. Let's assume you are 100% correct on all statements and I am 100% wrong on all statements. I am 100% wrong on whatever I think I know about materials. Could be: at one time it was considered impossible to go faster than a horse.
Question:
Consecutive shots for string or full base ambient temperature?
What is a significant/reliable sample size to you?
Assuming equal/same rifling and quality of rifling- Are you also saying barrel diameters do not matter?
I think I can infer- all barrels will shoot to the same quality.
I believe you are saying - given a small sample size (3shots) any barrel is a 1/4moa barrel. Its just a matter of "timing" that produces those results. One day its good the next day it is not.
By that logic- as barrels heat up some should shoot better groups while others expand.
A curved bore is irrelevant.
Bullet types should not matter- all bullets (reasonable distance) will ultimately produce the same group.
All ammo will arrive at and produce the same group when shot out of the same barrel.

Now- I am being constructive.

 

[Trollygag]

Thank you, friend, for pointing this thread my way.

Sounds like the Reddit Post. Your words match that forum topic exactly. The same forum that won't let a me respond to: something says you already knew that. Lucky for me this is not Reddit.

This is a lie.

You were told that you were effectively necro'ing a thread and that your account didn't yet meet posting requirements because we have bot/ban evasion controls in place.

You were told that if you were to make a thread showing the evidence for your product and to defend yourself from the skeptical opinions, we would manually approve it even if you didn't meet posting requirements.


You were muted in modmail after being told multiple times that posting long winded, confusing, hyperbolic anecdotes and stories (about fixing cars???) were not visible outside of the modmail, not visible to the general community, and weren't at all helping you do what you were trying to. And also when you were accusing us of some conspiracy about knowing who we were and who you were (??? and you did this again in this thread. What is that?).

You were even given helpful ideas as to what evidence is instead of the marketing quotes/vague explanations/finite element analysis pictures you had up.

You were also given the helpful advice that the Reddit community doesn't engage well with bluster. Telling people they couldn't be skeptical unless they gambled pink slips with their rifles or $5000 out of pocket wasn't helpful and wouldn't be approved.

I guess instead you made an Instagram post and whatever this is.

As we told you already, we don't have any dog in your fight. I don't see any reason to care until there is some form of peer reviewed evidence out in the open.

ARE YOU REALLY GOING TO SIT THERE AND TELL ME WHAT WE MEASURED FOR WAVE FRONT CONCERNING HARMONICS WAS ALL BULLS..T?

This is exhausting.

Instead of telling everyone else they don't know anything because only you know a bunch of secret information about your product that proves it works, why don't, instead, you tell us what you measured for wave front concerning harmonics and let us be the judge of whether what you measured at all supports your conclusions or opinions about them.

 

[brianf]

Tuner thread 3.0

We should combing all of the product with no data threads

There would be Old Testament level drama

And for the record I hope all these products work universally. It would be great for the shooting community. I’d buy them all

 

[45-90]

They really go deep into the rabbit hole with alot of scientific jargon...and theory, that their remedies make a difference...yeah, a difference would seem inevitable with all that machining of the barrel. But is it all positive? Can it be reproduced exactly the same for each barrel, the answer would be, no. Getting down to the molecular structure, as they do nothing is identical for any drilled hole. The more machining ya do the more variables you create. The chamber area is unchanged so this is the area all the energy is created ...since energy can not be destroyed, but only changed (to heat here) nothing done to the chamber, so that first blast of heat would still be localized there, and transfer out. So I doubt it would cause a lot less throat erosion if the idea that it's pulling cooler in from the outside will help all that much...a cheap chamber fan actually blows air over the chamber, for as long as you leave it in ...after each shot if ya care to, for one minute, or more.
A long tungsten carbide throat insert would cut down on throat erosion, and heat transfer, & change harmonics...
or pumping coolant through those barrel harmonic holes...LOL. If it works for you, go ahead. Maybe I should try some of those ideas, and see...the older I get the more help I need.

 

[John Baker]

Thank you, friend, for pointing this thread my way.



This is a lie.

You were told that you were effectively necro'ing a thread and that your account didn't yet meet posting requirements because we have bot/ban evasion controls in place.

You were told that if you were to make a thread showing the evidence for your product and to defend yourself from the skeptical opinions, we would manually approve it even if you didn't meet posting requirements.


You were muted in modmail after being told multiple times that posting long winded, confusing, hyperbolic anecdotes and stories (about fixing cars???) were not visible outside of the modmail, not visible to the general community, and weren't at all helping you do what you were trying to. And also when you were accusing us of some conspiracy about knowing who we were and who you were (??? and you did this again in this thread. What is that?).

You were even given helpful ideas as to what evidence is instead of the marketing quotes/vague explanations/finite element analysis pictures you had up.

You were also given the helpful advice that the Reddit community doesn't engage well with bluster. Telling people they couldn't be skeptical unless they gambled pink slips with their rifles or $5000 out of pocket wasn't helpful and wouldn't be approved.

I guess instead you made an Instagram post and whatever this is.

As we told you already, we don't have any dog in your fight. I don't see any reason to care until there is some form of peer reviewed evidence out in the open.



This is exhausting.

Instead of telling everyone else they don't know anything because only you know a bunch of secret information about your product that proves it works, why don't, instead, you tell us what you measured for wave front concerning harmonics and let us be the judge of whether what you measured at all supports your conclusions or opinions about them.

From my perspective - it is not a "lie". We cannot respond - that is the bottom line. Your view of the interpretation of our communication on Reddit are not the same as mine. A moderator noted I needed to spend time on Reddit and earn Karma. I accepted that- that is why I reached out to you as the moderator. I got banned for 28days. That's ok. From my point of view- as the results rolled.
I at no point did I say a person not agreeing with "us" was knowledge lacking.
Can you say the same about people noting items against me?
Have you yourself not "questioned" if I am even an engineer? Or even just a wrench puller?
Dude- you take the "pink slips" way to seriously. Come out- shoot our product is all I am trying to say to people who are negating our product without ever touching it.
There is no data we could provide to you that will suffice and have you question your position. It will always be "flawed".

 

[John Baker]

My buddy shoots structured barrels. One of them doesn't shoot for shit, the other is ok. There was a guy posting a few days ago that said his won't shoot for shit either. Considering its about $2K per barrel, even so if there was some magic to it everyone who competes would be using them. Yet no one but fringe outskirts and people with more money than skill to burn are using them.

Again please help us determine who they are.
We pulled all buyers of multiple barrels. We will contact them to find out if they have a "shit" barrel.
We googled the thread this group is noting and cannot find it.
Please provide a link.
Usually people don't talk about if something is good- they will complain mightily if a $2k item is junk. We don't have any complaints.
I WANT to know and hear about the failure.
Please share it or contact us, have them contact us...

 

[John Baker]

Tuner thread 3.0

We should combing all of the product with no data threads

There would be Old Testament level drama

And for the record I hope all these products work universally. It would be great for the shooting community. I’d buy them all

Not sure if that is a positive for us or a negative. To your point- if all products were held to the same standards our barrels are being held to in which "users" are not accepted... labs would be pretty busy.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

Again please help us determine who they are.
We pulled all buyers of multiple barrels. We will contact them to find out if they have a "shit" barrel.
We googled the thread this group is noting and cannot find it.
Please provide a link.
Usually people don't talk about if something is good- they will complain mightily if a $2k item is junk. We don't have any complaints.
I WANT to know and hear about the failure.
Please share it or contact us, have them contact us...

It's not my job or my problem. If they want to reach out, they are big boys. Im just repeating what i have seen and been told from first person accounts. My comment still stands.

Why aren't we seeing these across the shooting sports dominating?

Now if you want to supply a barrel and ammo I am happy to film a test comparing your barrel to a run-of-the-mill cut rifle barrel from bartlien, kreiger or benchmark. There are alot of bold statements that are unsubstatiated and from what we know, are most likely bs.

 

[Makinchips208]

The more machining ya do the more variables you create.

Seriously?
aerospace,
Automotive,
Marine,
Mechanical,
Engines
Etc. Etc,
How are parts for all these, many are 100% machined, designed and engineered and works extremely reliably?
Off topic, sorry.

 

[Csafisher]

OK- I am listening. Let's assume you are 100% correct on all statements and I am 100% wrong on all statements. I am 100% wrong on whatever I think I know about materials. Could be: at one time it was considered impossible to go faster than a horse.
Question:
Consecutive shots for string or full base ambient temperature?
What is a significant/reliable sample size to you?
Assuming equal/same rifling and quality of rifling- Are you also saying barrel diameters do not matter?
I think I can infer- all barrels will shoot to the same quality.
I believe you are saying - given a small sample size (3shots) any barrel is a 1/4moa barrel. Its just a matter of "timing" that produces those results. One day its good the next day it is not.
By that logic- as barrels heat up some should shoot better groups while others expand.
A curved bore is irrelevant.
Bullet types should not matter- all bullets (reasonable distance) will ultimately produce the same group.
All ammo will arrive at and produce the same group when shot out of the same barrel.

Now- I am being constructive.

Joe Biden makes more coherent speeches than whatever this is…..

 

[John Baker]

It's not my job or my problem. If they want to reach out, they are big boys. Im just repeating what i have seen and been told from first person accounts. My comment still stands.

Why aren't we seeing these across the shooting sports dominating?

Now if you want to supply a barrel and ammo I am happy to film a test comparing your barrel to a run-of-the-mill cut rifle barrel from bartlien, kreiger or benchmark. There are alot of bold statements that are unsubstatiated and from what we know, are most likely bs.

What is your location?
What caliber?
Weight?
Bolt or Semi?
What are you going to film?
Will your test meet criteria being required here? Rhetorical.
How will your test differ from others done by other 3rd party that are not being accepted?
We will try to find your "big boys". My comment still stands also. We want to hear about the "bad barrels".
I gather you are a gunsmith... you can chamber.

 

[45-90]

Seriously?
aerospace,
Automotive,
Marine,
Mechanical,
Engines
Etc. Etc,
How are parts for all these, many are 100% machined, designed and engineered and works extremely reliably?
Off topic, sorry.

I worked in aerospace, nuclear, computer, robotics, defense as a machinist for 35 yrs...
So really you have no idea....really.
These mechanical devices work, as designed, because they have tolerance, and limits...they are not molecularly identical...not even close.
I had to qualify CNC milling machines I operated to see if they will hold the tolerance for the likely jobs assigned to them...do you really believe they are perfect...brand new, far from it. If you have the inspection equipment to test in a temperature controlled clean room inspection area. For example, one check, Circle interpolation check, they never cut a perfectly round circle ...ever, but it will meet tolerance specs, some are closer than others. Parts appear identical are close enough for manufacturing, but down to the molecular level they are not. Every cut in metal has a molecular different outcome with the same cutter, same material, same coolent on the same CNC machining center...fact. They can be in tolerance or the very next one out, because of cutter wear or material change.
So in the case of drilling the parallel holes in the barrels for vibration purposes no 2 holes are the same at any point, in diameter and not parallel, they are not even round, on the molecular level..so the vibration control can never be repeated exactly the same, from one hole to the next or barrel to barrel... the more you machine the less identical they become...
Magnify what appear as round holes, as I have, they are totally out of round, jagged, and torn, where .0002" looks like a huge gouge. On a molecular level, nothing man made is perfect, and that's where molecular vibration operates.

 

[Makinchips208]

I worked in aerospace, nuclear, computer, robotics, defense as a machinist for 35 yrs...
So really you have no idea....really.
These mechanical devices work, as designed, because they have tolerance, and limits...they are not molecularly identical...not even close.
I had to qualify CNC milling machines I operated to see if they will hold the tolerance for the likely jobs assigned to them...do you really believe they are perfect...brand new, far from it. If you have the inspection equipment to test in a temperature controlled clean room inspection area. For example, one check, Circle interpolation check, they never cut a perfectly round circle ...ever, but it will meet tolerance specs, some are closer than others. Parts appear identical are close enough for manufacturing, but down to the molecular level they are not. Every cut in metal has a molecular different outcome with the same cutter, same material, same coolent on the same CNC machining center...fact. They can be in tolerance or the very next one out, because of cutter wear or material change.
So in the case of drilling the parallel holes in the barrels for vibration purposes no 2 holes are the same at any point, in diameter and not parallel, they are not even round, on the molecular level..so the vibration control can never be repeated exactly the same, from one hole to the next or barrel to barrel... the more you machine the less identical they become...
Magnify what appear as round holes, as I have, they are totally out of round, jagged, and torn, where .0002" looks like a huge gouge. On a molecular level, nothing man made is perfect, and that's where molecular vibration operates.

True. On the molecular level. You are correct.
I make cutting tools for a living, as well as machining parts so I understand tolerances, just not on a molecular level.

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

What is your location?
What caliber?
Weight?
Bolt or Semi?
What are you going to film?
Will your test meet criteria being required here? Rhetorical.
How will your test differ from others done by other 3rd party that are not being accepted?
We will try to find your "big boys". My comment still stands also. We want to hear about the "bad barrels".
I gather you are a gunsmith... you can chamber.

East

What is your location?
What caliber?
Weight?
Bolt or Semi?
What are you going to film?
Will your test meet criteria being required here? Rhetorical.
How will your test differ from others done by other 3rd party that are not being accepted?
We will try to find your "big boys". My comment still stands also. We want to hear about the "bad barrels".
I gather you are a gunsmith... you can chamber.

East coast.
6.5 cm 8 twist. I'll have my smith spin it up with the same reamer and process as he will a new cut rifle barrel. M24/mtu or comp contour to make it more similar. Assuming the od will fit in his spindle.
It will go in an impact or tikka...probally the impact so I don't have to step down the OD.

Will video and document everything. Factory ammo so no messing with seating. Every test will be over a chrono ( andi scan and garmin). We will see if your claims are true:

Recoil reduction
– Flatter SD
– Free velocity potential
– Free BC potential
– Reduced mirage
– Greater barrel life

If your claims ring true then it will be documented. I just picked up new recording equipment for making videos and will publish it on youtube. I would be happy to be proven wrong.

 

[John Baker]

East
East coast.
6.5 cm 8 twist. I'll have my smith spin it up with the same reamer and process as he will a new cut rifle barrel. M24/mtu or comp contour to make it more similar. Assuming the od will fit in his spindle.
It will go in an impact or tikka...probally the impact so I don't have to step down the OD.

Will video and document everything. Factory ammo so no messing with seating. Every test will be over a chrono ( andi scan and garmin). We will see if your claims are true:

Recoil reduction
– Flatter SD
– Free velocity potential
– Free BC potential
– Reduced mirage
– Greater barrel life

If your claims ring true then it will be documented. I just picked up new recording equipment for making videos and will publish it on youtube. I would be happy to be proven wrong.

This is Pod Racing.
Tell me about your chassis channel.
Expected weight of your barrel.
What length?
Also- I want to be there for the first initial testing.
Only 8 twist? Not a 7.5... ?
What is your current YouTube channel?
Would you like to go over an Oheler 89?
Longer distances also?
Reach out to me on our website so we can work out the final details.

 

[Lwads]

It's not my job or my problem. If they want to reach out, they are big boys. Im just repeating what i have seen and been told from first person accounts. My comment still stands.

Why aren't we seeing these across the shooting sports dominating?

Now if you want to supply a barrel and ammo I am happy to film a test comparing your barrel to a run-of-the-mill cut rifle barrel from bartlien, kreiger or benchmark. There are alot of bold statements that are unsubstatiated and from what we know, are most likely bs.

I’ve got a Structured barrel with 2500 down the tube, I’ll shoot side by side with you for 2k rounds as fast as you want. We’ll even shoot at what ever pace you want.

 

[Lwads]

This is Pod Racing.
Tell me about your chassis channel.
Expected weight of your barrel.
What length?
Also- I want to be there for the first initial testing.
Only 8 twist? Not a 7.5... ?
What is your current YouTube channel?
Would you like to go over an Oheler 89?
Longer distances also?
Reach out to me on our website so we can work out the final details.

I’ll shoot side by side with him. I’m right here on the east coast to. Lol

 

[John Baker]

I’ll shoot side by side with him. I’m right here on the east coast to. Lol

Hello LWad,
You have known me since 2016 and seen the evolution of our barrels. That first day on the ranch when I pulled out a 300Norma.
You have some experience in shooting under more than a paper target condition.
How many rounds does your 6mm shoot before group migration starts? Group open up? North of 2500rds on the barrel. My thought is to also bring a 300Norma, 375CT and a .416. Up to some shooting? You are one of my objective evidence points No- I am not out to "nastily" win to win. I will win by changing his mind.

 

[Lwads]

Hello LWad,
You have known me since 2016 and seen the evolution of our barrels. That first day on the ranch when I pulled out a 300Norma.
You have some experience in shooting under more than a paper target condition.
How many rounds does your 6mm shoot before group migration starts? Group open up? North of 2500rds on the barrel. My thought is to also bring a 300Norma, 375CT and a .416. Up to some shooting? You are one of my objective evidence points No- I am not out to "nastily" win to win. I will win by changing his mind.

I know you will John. Some individuals just fight evolution no matter the industry, or are just looking to get views on some channel or podcast instead of purchasing whatever said product to make an educated decision before making noise.

 

[John Baker]

K I’m going to respond the same way


WHICH CERAKOTES

Will be getting the exact numbers. I have a "code" number only that was given to me at SHOT. I will get actual part numbers- our Cerakote guy has them.

 

[brianf]

I worked in aerospace, nuclear, computer, robotics, defense as a machinist for 35 yrs...
So really you have no idea....really.
These mechanical devices work, as designed, because they have tolerance, and limits...they are not molecularly identical...not even close.
I had to qualify CNC milling machines I operated to see if they will hold the tolerance for the likely jobs assigned to them...do you really believe they are perfect...brand new, far from it. If you have the inspection equipment to test in a temperature controlled clean room inspection area. For example, one check, Circle interpolation check, they never cut a perfectly round circle ...ever, but it will meet tolerance specs, some are closer than others. Parts appear identical are close enough for manufacturing, but down to the molecular level they are not. Every cut in metal has a molecular different outcome with the same cutter, same material, same coolent on the same CNC machining center...fact. They can be in tolerance or the very next one out, because of cutter wear or material change.
So in the case of drilling the parallel holes in the barrels for vibration purposes no 2 holes are the same at any point, in diameter and not parallel, they are not even round, on the molecular level..so the vibration control can never be repeated exactly the same, from one hole to the next or barrel to barrel... the more you machine the less identical they become...
Magnify what appear as round holes, as I have, they are totally out of round, jagged, and torn, where .0002" looks like a huge gouge. On a molecular level, nothing man made is perfect, and that's where molecular vibration operates.

There are levels to everything.

Most people don’t understand there are things they don’t understand.

 

[R_A_W]

Appreciate that. I see they have 2 that are listed as "High Thermal Emissivity"...

Texas heat and sun are no joke in late summer, I've noticed a huge difference in cool down times then v. during the winter. I might give one of those Cerakotes a go on my next Bartlein blank that has a machined finish.

 

[brianf]

This is Pod Racing.
Tell me about your chassis channel.
Expected weight of your barrel.
What length?
Also- I want to be there for the first initial testing.
Only 8 twist? Not a 7.5... ?
What is your current YouTube channel?
Would you like to go over an Oheler 89?
Longer distances also?
Reach out to me on our website so we can work out the final details.

I’m all for testing because data is all that counts.

And I hope these barrels are lights out

But if not over dopler (at a minimum) it’s not a test..that’s still testing like it’s 1985

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

I'm pretty sure we have a couple of these barrels on the shelf we are about to spin up for a customer/s. I think we talked with someone at Tacom not long ago to verify how to go about threading muzzle.

No experience with them yet, so no opinion. But interesting nonetheless.

 

[LeftyJason]

I worked in aerospace, nuclear, computer, robotics, defense as a machinist for 35 yrs...
So really you have no idea....really.
These mechanical devices work, as designed, because they have tolerance, and limits...they are not molecularly identical...not even close.
I had to qualify CNC milling machines I operated to see if they will hold the tolerance for the likely jobs assigned to them...do you really believe they are perfect...brand new, far from it. If you have the inspection equipment to test in a temperature controlled clean room inspection area. For example, one check, Circle interpolation check, they never cut a perfectly round circle ...ever, but it will meet tolerance specs, some are closer than others. Parts appear identical are close enough for manufacturing, but down to the molecular level they are not. Every cut in metal has a molecular different outcome with the same cutter, same material, same coolent on the same CNC machining center...fact. They can be in tolerance or the very next one out, because of cutter wear or material change.
So in the case of drilling the parallel holes in the barrels for vibration purposes no 2 holes are the same at any point, in diameter and not parallel, they are not even round, on the molecular level..so the vibration control can never be repeated exactly the same, from one hole to the next or barrel to barrel... the more you machine the less identical they become...
Magnify what appear as round holes, as I have, they are totally out of round, jagged, and torn, where .0002" looks like a huge gouge. On a molecular level, nothing man made is perfect, and that's where molecular vibration operates.

Tuning forks aren't all machined exactly the same way and molecularly exact yet they still work. There are tolerances for a reason.

Another thought I had was if you make it so that whatever waves you make be destructive to the others that helps.

 

[iceng]

Motogp.... 2 bikes per rider, and they ALWAYS have a number 1 and 2 bikes.

The engines, chassis, suspension, and basically everything you can measure, arw identical. Like, very identical.

One will always be preferred. Rossi's engineers once (with yamaha) changed the bike without him knowing, and he did a hot lap, came in, and said the bike is off, its reacting like bike 2.. soooo they confessed to what they did.

Bench shooters buy multiple barrels and test them to find their championship / club / testing barrel. Hell, people even test gunpowder lots and find differences.

 

[John Baker]

Appreciate that. I see they have 2 that are listed as "High Thermal Emissivity"...

Texas heat and sun are no joke in late summer, I've noticed a huge difference in cool down times then v. during the winter. I might give one of those Cerakotes a go on my next Bartlein blank that has a machined finish.

Yes- the black version outperformed the grey/silver version by quite a margin in a heat soak sun.
However- our comparison was a standard finish for us which includes a coarse sand blast (the 200ra finish ). However, we also dropped a polished chrome part into the same sun. We saw steady sun soak values of 140deg+. The black coating repeatedly held 20deg less. Its heat dissipation was equal to or slightly superior to our coarse finish.
NOTE: we are using a coarse surface finish along with the thread patterns to increase surface area. That to us is a simple "gimme" for cooling the barrels. A 5lb block or aluminum versus a 5lb high density finned radiator.
Therefore at the moment we can only directly comment on the performance of the coating on our prepared surface. The Cerakote rep said the grey/silver version would perform better. In direct cool down and sun heat soak it did not.
A couple of years ago we had a barrel plasma'd with aluminum. Unfortunately we never got to test it. UPS delivered a torn in half empty box (even the driver said "I think there is something wrong here").

 

[John Baker]

I’m all for testing because data is all that counts.

And I hope these barrels are lights out

But if not over dopler (at a minimum) it’s not a test..that’s still testing like it’s 1985

Several barrels are being set up for tunnel (two tunnels) and doppler test. I will admit the "representatives" for these test are prejudice in our favor- they have already shot our barrels in side by sides.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I don't know if a structured barrel works or not. However, we all know that firing a bullet makes the rifle itself twist, so there's clearly torque put on the barrel. That much we all know and it's kind of ridiculous to say otherwise.

 

[John Baker]

Motogp.... 2 bikes per rider, and they ALWAYS have a number 1 and 2 bikes.

The engines, chassis, suspension, and basically everything you can measure, arw identical. Like, very identical.

One will always be preferred. Rossi's engineers once (with yamaha) changed the bike without him knowing, and he did a hot lap, came in, and said the bike is off, its reacting like bike 2.. soooo they confessed to what they did.

Bench shooters buy multiple barrels and test them to find their championship / club / testing barrel. Hell, people even test gunpowder lots and find differences.

Agreed.
A primary goal for our barrel is to reduce the variability that can occur with barrels- assuming harmonics are present and effect a shot and heat migration also effects the shot.
You don't change things. A constant threat in our shop. Small changes have big results at times.
The bench note: we have a 1000yd bench guy shooting 6mm. He ran our barrel for months before taking it into comps. I think his record keeping is quite complete. He noted on day one- "I don't care if I win- I care about my year end aggregate". One of a hand full of light guns (this one is -4lb under weight) to shoot a sub 2"group at 1000yds in comp. He has had 3-1st place, 1-2nd, 1-3r and 1- 8th (he noted crazy wind day). He bought another light barrel ("can you make it heavier"), and a heavy gun barrel. Something says he has logged every shot fired thru that barrel.
Tough aspect of this is: this is not considered evidence of performance. Objective at the most.
Plus it was noted that Bench guys are essentially a thing of the past and have no bearing on the discussion concerning our barrel.
Tough crowd.
That is why I asked what is "good data" if shooters are only considered objective evidence.

 

[John Baker]

I don't know if a structured barrel works or not. However, we all know that firing a bullet makes the rifle itself twist, so there's clearly torque put on the barrel. That much we all know and it's kind of ridiculous to say otherwise.

That is part of our argument. Mechanically, I struggle with a barrel not twisting some value during its shot. Even taking into account the the interior is most likely twisting at a higher rate than the exterior.
Is the interior distorted during a firing process? I would say "yes". Think of a buttoning process.
We will be posting some simple fun videos on how little torque it takes to twist a barrel.

 

[obx22]

Yes- the black version outperformed the grey/silver version by quite a margin in a heat soak sun.
However- our comparison was a standard finish for us which includes a coarse sand blast (the 200ra finish ). However, we also dropped a polished chrome part into the same sun. We saw steady sun soak values of 140deg+. The black coating repeatedly held 20deg less. Its heat dissipation was equal to or slightly superior to our coarse finish.
NOTE: we are using a coarse surface finish along with the thread patterns to increase surface area. That to us is a simple "gimme" for cooling the barrels. A 5lb block or aluminum versus a 5lb high density finned radiator.
Therefore at the moment we can only directly comment on the performance of the coating on our prepared surface. The Cerakote rep said the grey/silver version would perform better. In direct cool down and sun heat soak it did not.
A couple of years ago we had a barrel plasma'd with aluminum. Unfortunately we never got to test it. UPS delivered a torn in half empty box (even the driver said "I think there is something wrong here").

Wondering if anyone looked into the research already performed by astronomical instruments companies (telescope parts/bodies) on color studies and rate of heat loss based on color. Certain colors do drop heat noticeably faster and the results are counterintuitive.
Certain colors also heat faster…

 

[brianf]

Several barrels are being set up for tunnel (two tunnels) and doppler test. I will admit the "representatives" for these test are prejudice in our favor- they have already shot our barrels in side by sides.

That’s great !!

Can you tell us what facility you are using?

 

[John Baker]

Tuning forks aren't all machined exactly the same way and molecularly exact yet they still work. There are tolerances for a reason.

Another thought I had was if you make it so that whatever waves you make be destructive to the others that helps.

Cancellation- Round cylinder tooling tools will have 4nodes typically. Two ends and two mid bands. At each node the wave front changes direction. In the node area- activity is zero. Interestingly those nodes are not exactly in the same plane onto itself as many wander up and down a bit. As a tool heats the nodes will change position to the point of touching at extremes - and tool failure. These nodes are not the same as nodes described by frequency- each tool will be capable of showing more than one frequency peak. Heat changes those peaks position.
If harmonics has no play on the shot- why does heat effect the shot? If heat was just a simple factor the barrel should still shoot the same group size and only wander in location. Just my opinion.
The shape of our barrels and their features are designed to guide and nullify waves.

 

[iceng]

Good info. Thanks.

 

[John Baker]

That’s great !!

Can you tell us what facility you are using?

I hope to. One is private for company internal use and the other are mil testing.
However, look up Bryan Boone at Coastal Precision. He was an absolute doubter but his client said buy it anyway... two test several months apart. The first one has a standard barrel and a Structured Barrel with the Structured barrel starting about half way through..

Home

He now says the Structured Barrels are absolutely the easiest barrels to tune too.. agreed only Objective evidence, or opinion.

 

[brianf]

I hope to. One is private for company internal use and the other are mil testing.
However, look up Bryan Boone at Coastal Precision. He was an absolute doubter but his client said buy it anyway... two test several months apart. The first one has a standard barrel and a Structured Barrel with the Structured barrel starting about half way through..

Home

He now says the Structured Barrels are absolutely the easiest barrels to tune too.. agreed only Objective evidence, or opinion.

Will do