Rifle Scopes Anyone using a mini red dot on their bolt rifle?

deersniper

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    Anyone using a Mini Red Dot on their bolt gun? Any pictures? Hwo do you like the set up? I was thinking about putting one on my .308 for the close shots, but it already weighs a ton.

    Thanks.
    -dan

     

    LoneWolfUSMC

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    Re: Anyone using a mini red dot on their bolt rifle?

    Are you talking about in addition to a magnified optic?

    If so, I have though about putting a Trijicon or similar on my rifle with a GG&G scope tube mount. That way I had a very accurate way to make sub-25y shots while moving to the FFP or inside of buildings. I am just waiting on my SN-3 to see if I will have room on the tube when mounted with the correct eye relief.
     

    deersniper

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    Re: Anyone using a mini red dot on their bolt rifle?

    Yes, I am referring to a Red dot in addition to the magnified scope.

    -dan
     

    scotharr

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    Re: Anyone using a mini red dot on their bolt rifle?

    How bout pulling out your pistol with a Crimson trace if you are indoors less than 25yard? A mini red dot seems like a bit of useless bling on a bolt action. just my opinion....:)
     

    sobrbiker883

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    Re: Anyone using a mini red dot on their bolt rifle?

    They wouldn't let me use my sidearm the last match I was at that had a hostage taker simulation stage at 11yd......
     

    LoneWolfUSMC

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    Re: Anyone using a mini red dot on their bolt rifle?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scooter-PIE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How bout pulling out your pistol with a Crimson trace if you are indoors less than 25yard? A mini red dot seems like a bit of useless bling on a bolt action. just my opinion....:) </div></div>

    1. The weapon in your hand is faster than the weapon in your holster.
    2. Pistols don't defeat body armor.
    3. A pistol is a method to fight your way to a rifle.

    What do you think is more likely to result in a rapid incapacitation? A center mass shot from a .45 ACP (my sidearm) or a 168gr .308?

    Finally, lasers are slower than irons at "bad breath" range and should only be used if you are carrying a ballistic shield or if you are using a pistol that has poor iron sights (.38 snub).

    Go to the range and try it. See if it's faster to bring up a bolt gun and fire or draw your pistol and fire.
     

    ranger1183

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    Re: Anyone using a mini red dot on their bolt rifle?

    I found a JP Optics sight very helpful for quick shooting.

    308Win-16inch-1-600x243.jpg


     

    Pinco Palla

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    Re: Anyone using a mini red dot on their bolt rifle?

    I've got one Docter RDS piggybacked on S&B mounted on my Steyer SSG69PIV ,
    PP out



     

    scotharr

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    Re: Anyone using a mini red dot on their bolt rifle?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scooter-PIE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How bout pulling out your pistol with a Crimson trace if you are indoors less than 25yard? A mini red dot seems like a bit of useless bling on a bolt action. just my opinion....:) </div></div>

    1. The weapon in your hand is faster than the weapon in your holster.
    2. Pistols don't defeat body armor.
    3. A pistol is a method to fight your way to a rifle.

    What do you think is more likely to result in a rapid incapacitation? A center mass shot from a .45 ACP (my sidearm) or a 168gr .308?

    Finally, lasers are slower than irons at "bad breath" range and should only be used if you are carrying a ballistic shield or if you are using a pistol that has poor iron sights (.38 snub).

    Go to the range and try it. See if it's faster to bring up a bolt gun and fire or draw your pistol and fire. </div></div>

    and the corny scenario described only shows up in a non-realistic match, where a sniper is asked to act like a door-kicker. Get the mini-dot for your competition, but I don't see any real world application.
     

    Sniff

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    Re: Anyone using a mini red dot on their bolt rifle?

    I have seen a 45 degree angled mount for an Aimpoint. It attached to the scope mounting rail and the aimpoint (T-1 I think) sat to the right of the scope and slightly below the scope.

    To use it, you just tilted the rifle left slightly so the Aimpoint was in your line of sight. Butt stayed in the shoulder.

    I got to play with it on a blue gun M4 set up just to show how it worked but it seemed pretty cool and added mimimal weight to the gun.

    I'm pretty sure the mount was made by aimpoint.

    Sniff
     

    Furner

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    Re: Anyone using a mini red dot on their bolt rifle?

    RDPProductionSARa.jpg


    RDP-II mini red dot with SAR from tacticalnightvision.com

    they sell the rail mount by itself too so you can get the T1
     

    LoneWolfUSMC

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    Re: Anyone using a mini red dot on their bolt rifle?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scooter-PIE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    and the corny scenario described only shows up in a non-realistic match, where a sniper is asked to act like a door-kicker. Get the mini-dot for your competition, but I don't see any real world application. </div></div>

    Scooter, I am not talking about a match. I don't have the data available right now but there was such a case of LE Snipers moving to position and encountering the badguy attempting to un-ass the area. The shot was taken at extremely close range.

    This was covered during the NRA Precision Rifle Instructor Course on the first day while we were learning to "snap shoot" a bolt gun like you would an AR.

    You can poo-poo it all you want but there is a "real world" application. These setups are also showing up in the sandbox and they seem more prolific on the gas guns since a team may actually have contact while moving in a hide.

    If you don't like it, no one is forcing you to put one on your rig. I am going to try it, if for no other reason than I can say why it didn't work for me.
     

    gunsmithcat

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    Re: Anyone using a mini red dot on their bolt rifle?

    ive been dicking around with these on my ar10
    I find the ones mounting to the scope itself (ala the TNVC as seen above) is very uncomfortable to look through when tilting the weapon since the dot is so high off the center axis. Same with larue's mount. All too high.

    However, other mounts such as daniel defense's offset (mounts directly to the top rail) work much better, as it stays very close to the center axis and picks up quickly with a slight turn of the rifle.

     

    scotharr

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    Re: Anyone using a mini red dot on their bolt rifle?

    I'm not trying to give you a hard time unnecessarily and I think a healthy debate brings out the strengths and weaknesses of a choice. So, in that spirit, I'll state my position and then you can feel free to shoot holes in it so to speak.

    1. You are talking about putting two sighting systems on your weapon. this makes things more complicated. Sure you might get good at it while practicing, but what about under a real stressful situation where things become more reflexive? Are you going to instinctively cant your 15lb rifle and use the mini-dot when someone rushes you up close? Or are you going to instinctively point and shoot if he is 10 yards away. A second sighting system introduces unnecessary complexity. I see this as being just as likely to slow you down if you have to think about which sighting system to use.
    2. Hunters who go after dangerous game use scopes with a very low magnification at the lower range (1x, 2x) just for the situation where they have to take a quick shot up close. The simpler and more elegant solution is to have a scope with a very low power setting and keep it on this low power setting by default. 1-10x, 2-12x, 2.5-10x scopes would serve this purpose very well. Such a scope would easily permit 15-25yard shots. Newer scopes on the market offer great options: very lower power settings while also offering respectable high-power settings. This is the real solution to the problem in my opinion. Leave the high-magnification benchrest scope off your tactical rifle.
    3. It just looks errr "out of place." :) This is more of a fashion statement, but I think rifles that are decked out like christmas trees look an awful lot like golfers that have too many gadgets on their bag and themselves. The rule usually is the more gadgets the golfer has, the more certain you are that they suck. Yes, there are plenty of useful tools, but more is not always better. Having two sight systems on one rifle is not better IMHO.
    4. Indoor CQB style environments. So, you've got a long, 15lb sniper rifle with a high-power scope. Are you really going to carry that thing in the ready position as you slink around corners and open doors? With its long barrel, it is an easy target for someone to grab. It is heavy as hell and slow to bring up to the firing position on short notice as you spot your target. Isn't this why snipers either carry a pistol or an M4?

    Respectfully,

    Scooter

     

    GekoIQ

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    Re: Anyone using a mini red dot on their bolt rifle?

    ^^

    The way I see it is, it's not for crawling through buildings slowly doing super secret, ninja cqb moves. But for when you are caught off guard by someone in you immediate proximity, say 75yds or less who is rapidly closing ground. It is easier and faster to keep your main rifle at ready and use a reflex site to take down said bad guy than it is to transition to another weapon, acquire a sight picture and fire.
     

    scotharr

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    Re: Anyone using a mini red dot on their bolt rifle?

    75yard? use your scope set at 1x or 2x. 10 yards, snap and shoot.
     

    Victor-TNVC

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    Re: Anyone using a mini red dot on their bolt rifle?

    Scooter,

    First off, thank you for the comments.

    The role of a backup red dot sight is a very real asset I first thought about in 1994 after a incident I had with providing perimeter control on a back of a house for our entry team. As I heard "GUN 1 O'clock" a bad guy popped up 15-20 yards out as I was fixed on 10x with my Leupy MKIV M1. A point and shoot was out of the question and going to my side arm in any quick fashion while prone was, well you can imagine it would have taken a day and a half to get my handgun out...Long story short on this was my observer (with his AR) took immediate action and the baddie dropped his gun and know one got hurt. This got me thinking in 1994 to come up with a fast back up sighting solution which entailed milling off a Luepy MKIV ring and welding a rail on top. Back in those days not many red dots were mainstream except for the Optima 2000. That MRD was really ahead of it's time to say the least. We were surprised when we mounted the O2000, it worked VERY well and we were able to get on target VERY fast and very accurate for any close in work. With proper training, it does not slow you down. In today's engagements, not much has changed except for MRD technology like the Aimpoint Micro T1 which is about tank proof and the SAR rings have found a perfect home. Today's war fighters find this combo VERY useful if they have to fight to an over watch position or simply a baddie pops up where a point and shoot cannot happen. I can assure you this is no "fashion statement" to say the least. No one is saying to use a long for for CQB, but many LE and Mil folks find a back up MRD on their tube a viable mission asset. Hope this helps.
     

    Victor-TNVC

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    Re: Anyone using a mini red dot on their bolt rifle?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scooter-PIE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">75yard? use your scope set at 1x or 2x. 10 yards, snap and shoot. </div></div>

    Many instances there is NO time to dial down your scope. Hope this helps.
    Sorry dupe, post above a few seconds before mine. :-D
     

    Victor-TNVC

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    Re: Anyone using a mini red dot on their bolt rifle?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gunsmithcat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ive been dicking around with these on my ar10
    I find the ones mounting to the scope itself (ala the TNVC as seen above) is very uncomfortable to look through when tilting the weapon since the dot is so high off the center axis. Same with larue's mount. All too high.

    However, other mounts such as daniel defense's offset (mounts directly to the top rail) work much better, as it stays very close to the center axis and picks up quickly with a slight turn of the rifle.

    </div></div>

    The beauty of the SAR ring is you can turn it all the way down near the rail as well. Shooters can basically put it anywhere they like where they have room. Most of the off set rails out there make you turn the rifle almost sideways to shoot, (the last we checked, it took a 40deg+ cant to see a MRD), that will slow you down and awkward vs. a quick 5 deg cant at the most based on where you locate the SAR. Also while shooting prone we found large canting of a rifle is very difficult at best. Either way, the good news is there is viable mounting solutions out there for specific shooter requirements and that is what our LE and war fighters deserve.

    Vic

    F_SAR3PS_AR_01.jpg


    G_SAR3PS_M700_01.jpg


    SARALONE.jpg
     

    scotharr

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    Re: Anyone using a mini red dot on their bolt rifle?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cm92</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Would you honestly have time to turn the dial on your scope from 10x to 2x? </div></div>

    Maybe you have misunderstood my comments. Your scope should always be set to its lowest power setting unless you are dialing in for a shot. the default setting is always at the lowest power. This is how dangerous game hunters do it. This is how you should do it for dangerous people.
    smile.gif
     

    Shady_Jay

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    Re: Anyone using a mini red dot on their bolt rifle?

    I have one on an arms mount





    RO061.jpg
     

    scotharr

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    Re: Anyone using a mini red dot on their bolt rifle?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Victor-TNVC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Scooter,

    First off, thank you for the comments.

    The role of a backup red dot sight is a very real asset I first thought about in 1994 after a incident I had with providing perimeter control on a back of a house for our entry team. As I heard "GUN 1 O'clock" a bad guy popped up 15-20 yards out as I was fixed on 10x with my Leupy MKIV M1. A point and shoot was out of the question and going to my side arm in any quick fashion while prone was, well you can imagine it would have taken a day and a half to get my handgun out...Long story short on this was my observer (with his AR) took immediate action and the baddie dropped his gun and know one got hurt. This got me thinking in 1994 to come up with a fast back up sighting solution which entailed milling off a Luepy MKIV ring and welding a rail on top. Back in those days not many red dots were mainstream except for the Optima 2000. That MRD was really ahead of it's time to say the least. We were surprised when we mounted the O2000, it worked VERY well and we were able to get on target VERY fast and very accurate for any close in work. With proper training, it does not slow you down. In today's engagements, not much has changed except for MRD technology like the Aimpoint Micro T1 which is about tank proof and the SAR rings have found a perfect home. Today's war fighters find this combo VERY useful if they have to fight to an over watch position or simply a baddie pops up where a point and shoot cannot happen. I can assure you this is no "fashion statement" to say the least. No one is saying to use a long for for CQB, but many LE and Mil folks find a back up MRD on their tube a viable mission asset. Hope this helps. </div></div>
    Victor, thanks for the real-world feedback. I still think this is a once in a blue moon scenario and would gladly buy a few of your night vision devices long before I get the Christmas tree mount. :)
     

    Jester308

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    Re: Anyone using a mini red dot on their bolt rifle?

    trying to get a mount made for the AI one peice rings, for this reason. will see how we go.

    JJ
     

    paradigmsk8er

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    Re: Anyone using a mini red dot on their bolt rifle?

    several companies make caps that will work for this application--us AR guys are lucky (since most AR users use the LT stuff but not bolt guys, or at least my bolt guns dont have QR anything) in that the LT SPR mounts have the side cap-I am adding a MRD to mine on that mount for the above reasons.


    All it takes is training, and you can make a quick transition to the MRD. Not only does it offer a better FOV and no parallax, it is easier to snap to for quick shots.

    Again, all it takes is training.
     

    Wild_Bill

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    Re: Anyone using a mini red dot on their bolt rifle?

    Hi i have a J Point on my rifle co whitnessing a 8-32 NXS the reason is if i am taking shots at a further target eating grass then i upset another bovine eating grass close by and he is angry i can tilt my 338 and fire a quick shot under 50 yards to stop the unhappy bovine when the scope could be on 22 power or higher cranked up on elevation for a long shot or i could just upset some feral pigs close buy and nail them after they wake up from a longer shot. They have their purpose for a fast shot where precision is not required 50 to 100 yards MAX.

    I think a small J Point or similar is perfect. I also have BUIS on the 30" barreled rifle in case the optics die for any reason i can flip them up and still have an accurate sighting system to 300 yards.

    Horses for courses.

     

    jthyttin

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    Re: Anyone using a mini red dot on their bolt rifle?

    I've used Mini Aimpoint mounted in 1:30 o'clock position on my bolt gun's forend. Reason was closeup shots on running Russian wild boars. Using Aimpoint as primary optics is not an option.

    Problem is, when canting even a medium recoiling gun you run a real risk of getting your face hit by the primary optics. Fast hunting situations increase the risk greatly.

    BTW, if your range allows to set up targets close-up, it's nice to have few at, say 10-25y, and then while you're engaging the far away targets have your buddy occasionally call for action on the close ones (use numbering or some such for further confusion...)
     

    19818119

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    Re: Anyone using a mini red dot on their bolt rifl

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scooter-PIE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How bout pulling out your pistol with a Crimson trace if you are indoors less than 25yard? A mini red dot seems like a bit of useless bling on a bolt action. just my opinion....:) </div></div>

    1. The weapon in your hand is faster than the weapon in your holster.
    2. Pistols don't defeat body armor.
    3. A pistol is a method to fight your way to a rifle.

    What do you think is more likely to result in a rapid incapacitation? A center mass shot from a .45 ACP (my sidearm) or a 168gr .308?

    Finally, lasers are slower than irons at "bad breath" range and should only be used if you are carrying a ballistic shield or if you are using a pistol that has poor iron sights (.38 snub).

    Go to the range and try it. See if it's faster to bring up a bolt gun and fire or draw your pistol and fire. </div></div>

    Why not sling the rifle and draw your sidearm before you go indoors?