I have a 2-stage stock trigger in my LMT and love it. I've heard that vanilla 1-stage AR triggers are what they are. Stiff by design.
- Thread starter Icewater
- Start date
I have a 2-stage stock trigger in my LMT and love it. I've heard that vanilla 1-stage AR triggers are what they are. Stiff by design.
I was being sarchastic. Maybe the endiing about pain and suffering was not enough of a give away.
There is a reason I said ARMY and MARINES. Both will instill a baseline understanding of marksmanship, and require a trainie to hit targets from 50-300 (500 for Marines). No shit everyone is not a expert, but the point is, there is a basic level of fundementals and marksman ship that goes along with real military training. It's up to the shooter to determine how little or much past they they will pursue. Infantry units go to the range quite frequently. Most comabt arms are at the range atleast quarterly, usualy monthly. There is much more to manuver warfare than shooting guns, and time/funding is not infinate.
Jesus christ sometimes its like half the site has asbergers or something.
It also gets old listening to novices telling other novices what equipment to buy beacuse they own it or they have used it. I could spout off a couple products but the truth is, if the shooter does not even know what products he wants, then he does not need to buy them. He does not even understand what each one does and the pros/cons of each along with their histories that paint a better picture of what they are used for and their reliabilities. How the fuck can he know what he wants, when he doens't even know what he wants or needs?
BCM, KAC, Larue, Giessellle, ect ALL love the ignorant buyers. Shit More than half the people that buy their wares, don't even use them. They come on SH or Ar15 and get told they need to buy this and that.....They shoot a few mags and stick them in a closet, or show off to their buddies. The companies love it beacuse they sell more product. They could care less if your joe blow or rambo. The people who resell these guns and products are the same. I am one of the few, honest, divested parties who has zero interest in them selling everything they make or going bankrupt. You are going to get a fair and unbias assesment based on what is the end users best interest. If you can't deal with that, than just put me on ignore.
This is tough love. We are trying to help the kid/guy out and in the end, it will be more beneficial to him. Many of us have no desire to rehash the same shit over and over to some guy on the net who doesnt even own the guns, much less train and use them. I wouldn't buy a 16 year old kid a brand new corvette and I will not reccomend a novice shooter start fucking around with performance AR componets before they have a good understanding of fundementals and the system. Shitty Parrents and irresponsible people do both.
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I didn't know ar triggers were so controversial, it's ok it's all good.
To give a little background: I purchased my AR out of paranoia, not from zombie attacks or a revolution but that any day another "event" could happen and cause people to scramble to the gunstore and sell everything out and my state lawmakers to ban the sale of "assault weapons". I didn't want to miss out on my chance at an AR. I used to be a pump and bolt action hunter who never really paid too much attention to the laws, but now after my gun I'm your side here, I get now. I really never intended a practical use for my rifle but that is changing. You see I have to get my feet wet at some point and I am happy with my purchase. The more I use it the more I will figure out what I want in a rifle. Right now I only plan to shoot paper, the desire to just blow away random animals has left me a long time ago and I don't gage my manhood on how many people I think I can kill, my wife and kids will determine what kind of a man I am. I do understand that a trigger is no replacement for training and dollar for dollar training is much more effective than a mechanical device. I do think it is important to be comfortable with your equipment, if you pick up a gun off the shelf and it doesn't feel right you will put it back and look at something else or think of a way to make it feel right. That's all I'm trying to do is make my gun feel right to me. Everything but the trigger does. Before you lump me into the tactic oil pile know that I only out a "poor mans acog" on my rifle and that's it. I love everything else about it. I am not against training and I will at some point, I think I can get a trigger and training. I tried a trigger from someone I know and it felt great. Maybe I'm not going about everything the right way but I'm going to keep moving forward making mistakes along the way. I can't imagine anyone being perfect the first time. Thanks for the help guys
To give a little background: I purchased my AR out of paranoia, not from zombie attacks or a revolution but that any day another "event" could happen and cause people to scramble to the gunstore and sell everything out and my state lawmakers to ban the sale of "assault weapons". I didn't want to miss out on my chance at an AR. I used to be a pump and bolt action hunter who never really paid too much attention to the laws, but now after my gun I'm your side here, I get now. I really never intended a practical use for my rifle but that is changing. You see I have to get my feet wet at some point and I am happy with my purchase. The more I use it the more I will figure out what I want in a rifle. Right now I only plan to shoot paper, the desire to just blow away random animals has left me a long time ago and I don't gage my manhood on how many people I think I can kill, my wife and kids will determine what kind of a man I am. I do understand that a trigger is no replacement for training and dollar for dollar training is much more effective than a mechanical device. I do think it is important to be comfortable with your equipment, if you pick up a gun off the shelf and it doesn't feel right you will put it back and look at something else or think of a way to make it feel right. That's all I'm trying to do is make my gun feel right to me. Everything but the trigger does. Before you lump me into the tactic oil pile know that I only out a "poor mans acog" on my rifle and that's it. I love everything else about it. I am not against training and I will at some point, I think I can get a trigger and training. I tried a trigger from someone I know and it felt great. Maybe I'm not going about everything the right way but I'm going to keep moving forward making mistakes along the way. I can't imagine anyone being perfect the first time. Thanks for the help guys
I don't think it is the triggers that are controversial as much as a few people just like to pound on everyone they can. Like I said to a guy yesterday, who told me he "does not pull any punches", "the problem is you see everything as a fight and you should not be throwing punches in the first place."
I say anyone who outright attacks a newer shooter trying to learn should just take their piss and vinegar and go away. Realize that, for the most part, competitive shooters, which includes a large amount of Mil/LE guys as well, are some of the best, most helpful people you will ever want to meet. Some guys get pent up in the basement and just use the internet to lash out at their frustration with something they perceive, and it really is not you at all. You sound like a great guy and I think you will enjoy most of the people you meet at the range and at matches even more.
I say anyone who outright attacks a newer shooter trying to learn should just take their piss and vinegar and go away. Realize that, for the most part, competitive shooters, which includes a large amount of Mil/LE guys as well, are some of the best, most helpful people you will ever want to meet. Some guys get pent up in the basement and just use the internet to lash out at their frustration with something they perceive, and it really is not you at all. You sound like a great guy and I think you will enjoy most of the people you meet at the range and at matches even more.
Markco ,No one attacked a new shooter once,...read the thread for Christ sakes. It is in response to people giving bad advice. Maybe you need more coddling and a sensitive tone to not hurt your poor little feelings. Icewater is going to do whatever he wants to do...hopefully he takes some advice and experience away from this...along with other readers. Next time save the passive aggressive bs and address someone like a man.
The whole point is to focus your time and energy where you will get the most bang for your buck. Without a solid foundation you are just pissing money and everyone else's time down the drain. Believe it or not some people like to help others and help them avoid the same pitfalls they made. Everyone might have an opinion but they are not equal.
The whole point is to focus your time and energy where you will get the most bang for your buck. Without a solid foundation you are just pissing money and everyone else's time down the drain. Believe it or not some people like to help others and help them avoid the same pitfalls they made. Everyone might have an opinion but they are not equal.
It may be helpful to learn to shoot a GI trigger well. If he upgrades to a SSAE or similar, he'll miss that lesson.
On the other hand, I don't find much value in having a newer shooter use a GI trigger to learn high performance shooting. This shouldn't be that controversial on this forum?
The cost is a non issue for some and not for others. I think a good trigger is well worth $300, but then again I'm addicted to good glass.
On the other hand, I don't find much value in having a newer shooter use a GI trigger to learn high performance shooting. This shouldn't be that controversial on this forum?
The cost is a non issue for some and not for others. I think a good trigger is well worth $300, but then again I'm addicted to good glass.
Wow...
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I have stock and (a single) Giesselle triggers. The Gisselle in an LR in 6.5CM. All the others have stock GI triggers, with maybe a little help from a Powers II trigger jig. The CM is set up for longish range work. The others...not so much, maybe 50-200 (one's a 9mm).
It's good to learn to use a stock trigger (even the odd ball three round burst one), as you learn how to shoot in spite of the stock trigger. That being said, it takes a lot of practice (not necessarily ammo) to become comfortable with it. Cue the long groan of...wait for it...wait for it....dry fire practice (ugh). While boring, it does teach you to use the stock trigger without burning through a lot of ammo for practice.
That being said, if you're not going out to compete in MSR competition, IMHO just get an after market trigger. As someone who has taught the aforementioned marksmanship classes, I can say the regimented, repetitive drills, dry fire and snap in practice really does teach you to be a better shooter. However, most folks don't have the time, inclination or desire to do so (which is not necessarily a bad thing), and will never NEED to know how to work with a stock trigger. Build what you want, and run with what you brung...
Both sides to this (someone would say pointless) debate; neither right nor wrong, just different.
OP, have fun with whatever you decide to do, and as LoneWolf likes to say "Just get out and shoot!".
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I have stock and (a single) Giesselle triggers. The Gisselle in an LR in 6.5CM. All the others have stock GI triggers, with maybe a little help from a Powers II trigger jig. The CM is set up for longish range work. The others...not so much, maybe 50-200 (one's a 9mm).
It's good to learn to use a stock trigger (even the odd ball three round burst one), as you learn how to shoot in spite of the stock trigger. That being said, it takes a lot of practice (not necessarily ammo) to become comfortable with it. Cue the long groan of...wait for it...wait for it....dry fire practice (ugh). While boring, it does teach you to use the stock trigger without burning through a lot of ammo for practice.
That being said, if you're not going out to compete in MSR competition, IMHO just get an after market trigger. As someone who has taught the aforementioned marksmanship classes, I can say the regimented, repetitive drills, dry fire and snap in practice really does teach you to be a better shooter. However, most folks don't have the time, inclination or desire to do so (which is not necessarily a bad thing), and will never NEED to know how to work with a stock trigger. Build what you want, and run with what you brung...
Both sides to this (someone would say pointless) debate; neither right nor wrong, just different.
OP, have fun with whatever you decide to do, and as LoneWolf likes to say "Just get out and shoot!".
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I use Geissele on all of my ARs, with the G2S being the most prolific in my collection.
I completely understand where you are coming from saying that the trigger is just something you are not so fond of on the rifle and want to upgrade. A mil spec trigger on an AR is not at all ideal for precise work, but it isn't too bad once you get used to it. Like many others I gave my opinion on leaning towards a Geissele when you choose to swap out the unit. I only stated that you should spend some time getting used to the stock trigger first becuase once you do you will really appreciate the aftermarket unit once you drop it in and use it. I spent probably more time and ammo with a mil spec trigger than I should have before swapping it out, but when I finally did it was a thing of beauty and I was smiling from ear to ear after using it. Regardless of what trigger unit you get or when you decide to get it, just have some fun and enjoy being out on the range without over thinking what anyone on here says.
By the way don't forget to share with us which one you go with! I will be in the market for a new trigger unit for one of my AR's soon too. I'm thinking of trying out a Hiperfire even though it will be hard to say no to a Geissele.
By the way don't forget to share with us which one you go with! I will be in the market for a new trigger unit for one of my AR's soon too. I'm thinking of trying out a Hiperfire even though it will be hard to say no to a Geissele.
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ipsick,
I was waiting for my LaRue 7.62 tOBR order to come in when I found out they were switching from Geisselle to American Gold (AG) as the oem trigger. Needless to say, as a Geissele fan with their triggers in 4 rifles I was a little disappointed. But when the tOBR arrived and I tried the trigger, I was pleasantly surprised at how nice the AG trigger was. The break on either brand was equally crisp but the AG had less over travel and a shorter reset. If there was any change that I'd like to see in the AG is that the trigger width was the same as the Geissele. Like I said, it's really splitting hairs. Although I may like this one AG just a little bit more then my Geisseles, I'm still a "G" Kool-Aid drinker and will still recommend them to others. To the OP, enjoy your new rifle. Install an SSA-E and you'll enjoy it a little bit more.
Just a side note. I did a quick side by side trigger pull comparison between the AG on the tOBR and one of my SSA-E's. Average of 5 pulls. The AG had an average 10 oz. first stage and 1 lb. 14 oz. second stage. The SSA-E had an average 2 lb. 14 oz. first stage and 1 lb. 5 oz second stage.
You're neglecting a very important dimension in that comparison. The travel and reset on the Gold is telepathically short. I'm glad yours turned out well. The 2 .308 Golds I've tried were not great out of the box unlike their .223 Gold older brother.
The first time I tried Geissele, it was like getting to second base with a girl who was a year ahead of me.
There are a lot of people I would like to quote in this thread because the advice in my opinion is very good, but in short here is my take.
There is often an un-recognized forgiveness in the gear that isn't "Top of the Line" that actually makes learning easier. Lighter triggers, shorter resets, two stage triggers are all designed to make things "easier/better" for individuals who already do the basics really well. None of these things make learning easier or faster.
If something makes the learning more enjoyable then go for it, but in most cases the goal is to ultimately get better at whatever it is you are doing. With that said, triggers, especially factory mil-spec will improve with round count. Yes, more than 100 rounds is required. My vote, buy a couple of hundred dollars worth of ammo (something you will do anyway) make love to that trigger with each press and work it for a few hundred rounds or more and then decided what to do. You may find that you don't need to change anything.
There is often an un-recognized forgiveness in the gear that isn't "Top of the Line" that actually makes learning easier. Lighter triggers, shorter resets, two stage triggers are all designed to make things "easier/better" for individuals who already do the basics really well. None of these things make learning easier or faster.
If something makes the learning more enjoyable then go for it, but in most cases the goal is to ultimately get better at whatever it is you are doing. With that said, triggers, especially factory mil-spec will improve with round count. Yes, more than 100 rounds is required. My vote, buy a couple of hundred dollars worth of ammo (something you will do anyway) make love to that trigger with each press and work it for a few hundred rounds or more and then decided what to do. You may find that you don't need to change anything.
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Up that to a couple thousand rounds to get anywhere near smoothing out a trigger close to what most of the triggers discussed so far do. That is unless you're just talking about learning the fundamentals on a mil-spec trigger. Then getting a competent trigger press could happen within a thousand rounds or so with lots of dry fire practice pulls to supplement.
Whether the trigger is factory fresh or not, unless the trigger is broken, any shooter with an I.Q. above 77 can learn how to pull the commercial equivalent of the M4 trigger without moving the rifle in just a few attempts, when shown how to do it by someone who knows how to do it. In fact, everything there is to know about good shooting can be shown/demonstrated in about 3 hours of well constructed instruction, leading to students who could not conceive of hitting a static E target at 300 meters before instruction being able to tear-up the same at 600 having had such instruction; and, this is with irons. The need to practice to perfection is no doubt necessary for a shooter who wants to win in the highest levels of competition; but, whether seen as being fortunate or a curse, motor memory will be developed in just a few exercises, not thousands of executions as perceived necessary by novice shooters. What's important is, since motor memory comes so quickly, a shooter should get initial coaching from a highly qualified coach to assure development of a good position rather than a bad one, which may not easily or quickly be undone.
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Ran most of them and my favorite is the Wilson Combat single stage TTU
i like the rra nm trigger
Lifetime warranty, whats not to like there. That being said I swapped my RRA NM with an SSA-E. SSA-E is a fantastic trigger, put the NM in my back-up AR.
RRA triggers are known crap. Shitty from the factory and failure prone. Don't believe me fire up the google machine.
Even worse, RAA offers their two stage match trigger in their "combat" rifles. That's marketing directed to the novice consumer's fantasies about it all.
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Replacing a fair stock trigger with a high quality aftermarket unit is a no-brainer.
IF…
The stock trigger sucks.
It is on a rifle configured to take advantage of an improved trigger pull. Short barrel, RD sight, ammo dump queen, don't want to spend another dime on it rifle, why bother?
My last E3 MOD 1 had an unbelievably good stock trigger. I wouldn't change shit. But this isn't a bench rifle that I'm looking to squeeze every little bit of accuracy out of. Just got very lucky w this rifle, my other MOD 1s aren't as clean/crisp.
My LMT MWS needed a new trigger, it was the typical heavy, creepy, 2 stage. We forget one of the nice things about the AR platform, is that parts/groups are usually drop in, easy-peasy.
Good Luck.
IF…
The stock trigger sucks.
It is on a rifle configured to take advantage of an improved trigger pull. Short barrel, RD sight, ammo dump queen, don't want to spend another dime on it rifle, why bother?
My last E3 MOD 1 had an unbelievably good stock trigger. I wouldn't change shit. But this isn't a bench rifle that I'm looking to squeeze every little bit of accuracy out of. Just got very lucky w this rifle, my other MOD 1s aren't as clean/crisp.
My LMT MWS needed a new trigger, it was the typical heavy, creepy, 2 stage. We forget one of the nice things about the AR platform, is that parts/groups are usually drop in, easy-peasy.
Good Luck.
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Never said they were the "best", hence my swap. But I'll say this, it's worlds above a GI bone stock trigger in my application. Mine never gave me a minutes trouble in 3 years of use, took down a lot p-dogs with its help. Spend what you're able, upgrade when you can. Most of all shoot!
What application? One where its ok for it to fail?
Because thats what they do, at random times, and when they are used even somewhat heavily.
I am going to have to make a sig line, beacuse people still think that 1 gun = Representative of all of the models.
I was going to come here and say It doesn't matter, because there will be a handful of people who say "DUR MY TRIGGER IS GUUD, I DIN HAF NO PROBLEMZ" and fail to understand their 1 sample, used in almost certainly limited use is statistically insignificant before someone posted, but it looks like I was beaten to the trigger.
This: Sampling (statistics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia should be required reading before posting here.
For $65.00 Bill Springfield in Colorado Springs will fix your stock trigger to about 2.5 clean.
Guns and gear are not controversial. Ego is. Ego seeks to be right. "My trigger is better than your trigger….".
Take advice from experience like Sterling Shooter for example. The rest might even conserve band space.
Guns and gear are not controversial. Ego is. Ego seeks to be right. "My trigger is better than your trigger….".
Take advice from experience like Sterling Shooter for example. The rest might even conserve band space.
Geissele Hi-speed DMR
I like Geissele. I went with an SSA-E on my GAP-10. My 5.56 OBR (whenever I get it) comes stock with an SSA. On the other end, I needed to upgrade the trigger on my Sig 516 and went with a RRA 2 stage because I wanted to spend the least amount possible on the rifle. I realize that some on here think the RRA is crap, but it is a big improvement (especially for $90) over the OEM junk that came on the Sig. So far so good.
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