Are Defiance actions really this hard to run in dirty conditions?

brianf

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Why is butter always the lubricant of choice when someone is discussing how smoothly their bolt operates... Which one of you clowns is actually lubricating with butter?! :ROFLMAO:
i used to go pheasant hunting with a few guys from South Africa, they ran quail shoot ranch...big buck customers

they said when the day ended so many shots would go through the shotguns they would drop the barrel and action in a tub of diesel fuel

supposedly it was the easiest way lubricate and start cleaning out the fine sand, carbon, plastic from the barrel
 

J-Ham

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That actually seems like a pretty good idea... I'm all about that easy button when it comes to cleaning firearms!
 

wade2big

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i used to go pheasant hunting with a few guys from South Africa, they ran quail shoot ranch...big buck customers

they said when the day ended so many shots would go through the shotguns they would drop the barrel and action in a tub of diesel fuel

supposedly it was the easiest way lubricate and start cleaning out the fine sand, carbon, plastic from the barrel
Man I have never cleaned the inside of a shotgun barrel. The next shot will clean out the previous.
 

Baron23

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This fella clearly knows nothing about meterology and contrail levels nor about high altitude jet routes whereby aircraft fly the same routes between nav-aids.

In the USAF, before launching, we would check the contrail level and make sure we stayed out of it.

Commercial carriers and the FAA don't care.

Not sure what this has to do with Defiance actions but it did take me back....WAY back! haha
 

Absoluterock

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This fella clearly knows nothing about meterology and contrail levels nor about high altitude jet routes whereby aircraft fly the same routes between nav-aids.

In the USAF, before launching, we would check the contrail level and make sure we stayed out of it.

Commercial carriers and the FAA don't care.

Not sure what this has to do with Defiance actions but it did take me back....WAY back! haha
I posted that because I like to know who my information is coming from before engaging. If this guy thinks contrails are a conspiracy theory etc...I just might not be as interested in his opinion(s).

Also, a furry microphone wind cover is like $10. If you’re running a defiance action and have someone filming you in HD there are zero reasons you should be apologizing for the ‘wind noise’ because you’re ‘being authentic’ in every f-ing video.

This guy fails the test.
 
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Baron23

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I posted that because I like to know who my information is coming from before engaging. If this guy thinks contrails are a conspiracy theory etc...I just might not be as interested in his opinion(s).

Also, a furry microphone wind cover is like $10. If you’re running a defiance action and have someone filming you in HD there are zero reasons your should be apologizing for the ‘wind noise because you’re being authentic’ in every f-ing video.

This guy fails the test.
Ah, I didn't even notice that this was the same guy in the OP video. Sorry for being so unobservant....but yes, I would not put too much credence into a fella like that....on any topic.

Cheers
 
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Farquharson

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I use Winchester Model 70 and CZ 550 for hunting. They work well. The CZ needs some smoothing when new, but once you have stoned the edges of the extractor and run the bolt a few hundred times with a drop of valve grinding compound on the raceways, it’s as smooth as glass. Both actions have proven themselves in Africa and Alaska. For benchrest shooting, the fancy actions are fine, but for field use, the M70 and the CZ 550 can’t be beat.
 

Dthomas3523

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If you spec your Defiance properly (bolt body diameter vs receiver raceways) and use common sense with surface coatings, you have no issues.

If you spec the action too tight and get stupid with coatings, you will have issues.

The video is being quoted here as gospel across the board when it should not be.

Myself and others have purpose built rifles built on spec'd Defiances that are running excellently in bad conditions. I am pretty loyal to my suppliers but not to the extent I would put an officer or client in a bind by delivering something that is deficient in dirt, rain and snow.


./
That was my exact thought when watching this. I’ve seen many (even from GAP) defiance that weren’t order to spec for cerakote that are very bindy/sticky once they are coated.

I’m almost sure that rifle is sticky when it’s perfectly clean.
 

AirborneOkie

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Interesting, defiance makes a great action. I haven't seen any complaints from friends running them. Personally run my impacts in dusty conditions and haven't had any issues.
 

brianf

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And they got all that expertise from gun forums.
agree 100000%

never seen so much misinformation and lack of knowledge concerning statistics, physics, thermodynamics, fluid mechanics, mechanics of materials, machining techniques........


Think of all the threads that sound like:

Statistics: Still confusion about extreme spread and standard deviation, and what they mean

Thermodynamics: After a long fast string my target gets fuzzy in my optic, do i need a suppressor wrap

Fluid Mechanics: Which muzz brake is the best (even though the OP chooses the 3 of the same style of brakes) they all have the same gill shape and surface area and gill angle

Mechanics of Materials: How tight should i make my scope rings even though the OEM MFG suggest a range in the manual

Machining Techniques: I spend $1000 on a action which is cut on a 5-6 axis cnc machine that costs 500,000$, but my local gunsmith with a wobbly lathe says the face is out of square

the list goes on
 
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redneckbmxer24

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Yes, Defiance actions get very hard to run in dusty conditions. I’ve experienced it first hand and watched many other shooters have issues running them once they get dusty. Standard spec deviants with cerakote added is REALLY bad, the nitrided ones do a little better but will still gum up.

IMO the best way to go for a Defiance is to custom spec one with .002-.003” extra clearance on the bolt body. I know of a couple shops who have Defiance make their action that started doing this a while back. It’s a good idea to go with a smooth bolt body and microslick the bolt and it will help reduce the binding, that increased clearance will make it bind more. Defiance doesn’t use the best anti bind rail design.

Or just buy an Impact which is way smoother, doesn’t have issues running in dusty conditions, and you have to actually try really really hard to make it bind.
 

brianf

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@redneckbmxer24 question for you:

its been talked about forever that Cerakote especially if not applied properly will cause binding/sticky bolt, some guys call it "gummy"

since there are so many other micro/film/nano coatings out there, why on earth do people still cerkote the inside of actions...especially a Defiance which if not spec'd properly (customer choice not the MFG) will cause problems

makes me scratch my head at times...
 

308pirate

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agree 100000%

never seen so much misinformation and lack of knowledge concerning statistics, physics, thermodynamics, fluid mechanics, mechanics of materials, machining techniques........


Think of all the threads that sound like:

Statistics: Still confusion about extreme spread and standard deviation, and what they mean

Thermodynamics: After a long fast string my target gets fuzzy in my optic, do i need a suppressor wrap

Fluid Mechanics: Which muzz brake is the best (even though the OP chooses the 3 of the same style of brakes) they all have the same gill shape and surface area and gill angle

Mechanics of Materials: How tight should i make my scope rings even though the OEM MFG suggest a range in the manual

Machining Techniques: I spend $1000 on a action which is cut on a 5-6 axis cnc machine that costs 500,000$, but my local gunsmith with a wobbly lathe says the face is out of square

the list goes on
Message decoded above :ROFLMAO:

My favorite are the 'tards at M4carbine.net and arfcom arguing about metallurgy, especially arguing about what makes 4150 steel better than 4140, why whatever Carpenter alloy the army specified back in the 60s is the shit even though there are better products today, and the miscellaneous fuckery about "QC" when none of them grasp the fact that quality comes from process control and not 100% inspection.

I'm just like the fucking Madagascar penguins..............





I also have my own (professional) opinion about nitriding rifle parts. Any rifle sent out for nitriding by anyone not the OEM is worthless to me. I will absolutely not buy one done after the fact.

Nitriding, despite what many here still think, isn't a coating. It's a case hardening thermal process that changes the metallurgy of the steel.
 
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Tokay444

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Seems Chad at LRI is the only one doing Cerakote correctly, and even then, only because people still want their guns coloured.
 

redneckbmxer24

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@redneckbmxer24 question for you:

its been talked about forever that Cerakote especially if not applied properly will cause binding/sticky bolt, some guys call it "gummy"

since there are so many other micro/film/nano coatings out there, why on earth do people still cerkote the inside of actions...especially a Defiance which if not spec'd properly (customer choice not the MFG) will cause problems

makes me scratch my head at times...
Yes Cerakote can be gummy if not done properly, I’m not sure if it’s the wrong ratio of paint and hardener used, bad or old paint or hardener, or improper curing process, but I’ve had a couple rifles like that. One was actually a custom 700 and until it got a couple thousand cycles on it to wear it in/off it would bind like crazy even when everything was clean, and the 700 actions are pretty resistant to binding. You pretty much have to have a giant bolt knob and be running it where your levering out with it instead of more of a forward push to make a 700 bind up, but a bad cerakote job will certainly do the trick.

Shops use it because it’s the best spray on oven cured coating and can be done with minimal investment. Other types of coatings like nitride, ionbond, DLC, etc need to get sent out because it would be ridiculously expensive to set up to do a coating like that and just not cost effective for anyone except the absolute largest firearm manufacturers.

IMO nitride is the way to go on actions and bolts. If someone wants a different color than black then cerakote the outside of the action and the handle and shroud only on the bolt.

It still doesn’t fix the issue of the tight clearance and binding with the Defiance. I even had a nitrided deviant that didn’t like to work once it got some crap in it, it was bought through bugholes so I'd bet it was just their standard clearance specs, not sure what difference that would make with nitriding but more clearance may make the binding worse in that case. I've seen guys with naked deviants have the same problem, so it's not cerakote causing the issue there. The only ones I've seen run well in dust are ones with extra clearance, non fluted bolts, and microslick on the bolt body.

The Surgeons I've had were all Cerakoted inside and out, and they all ran flawlessly. They have the right amount of clearance out of the gate, they have an anti bind rail on each lug vs just one or none on the Defiance and most others, and they have a straight handle which IMO allows for more forward pressure and less levering to the side when running the bolt forward. The Impact is basically a slightly modified/enhanced Surgeon.
 
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redneckbmxer24

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Message decoded above :ROFLMAO:

My favorite are the 'tards at M4carbine.net and arfcom arguing about metallurgy, especially arguing about what makes 4150 steel better than 4140, why whatever Carpenter alloy the army specified back in the 60s is the shit even though there are better products today, and the miscellaneous fuckery about "QC" when none of them grasp the fact that quality comes from process control and not 100% inspection.

I'm just like the fucking Madagascar penguins..............


The best is when they believe that their $50 BCG is as good as a $400 LMT E-BCG or their $50 PSA receiver with a $25 parts kit is as good as a high end receiver and parts kits simply because of a couple metal specs which they don't even understand.

They're also the ones that will swear that their shitty chinese PrimaryArms/Swampfox/NCstar/whateverotherepicPOS is "reliable", "war ready", or whatever else they say to convince themselves it's good because they were too cheap to drop the cash on a quality optic. At least here most of the guys that cheap out and buy a shitty optic knows that they bought a POS and don't try to convince themselves or anyone else otherwise.
 
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brianf

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got that beat

they have a nice quality AR but that is the safe queen

the SHTF rig is the cheapest crap they can buy because they want to beat on it...but it doesnt run and jams every few rounds...not so much SHTF reliable
 

Ledzep

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Seems Chad at LRI is the only one doing Cerakote correctly, and even then, only because people still want their guns coloured.
I've watched the man put a Defiance bolt body in a mill spindle and hit it with a hand-held belt sander after the 2nd failed Ckote attempt. After the final attempt you could see a taper down from the bolt head area to the bolt body with the naked eye. Too bad the 'problem' was the bolt head area diameter that was causing the sticking... Draw your own conclusions.

This continues to be an 'issue' because the standard option for the longest time was the tight fit. <Opinion warning> I think the tight fit was driven by a theoretical concept that tighter bore fit better aligned lugs, and better alignment *must* mean better accuracy. I'm not so convinced that it matters. And maybe in the BR world it does (I've never gone full OCD). The issue is when you start trying to make BR world OCD work in field conditions.

What most people (myself included) see, not even including Ckote issues, is tight Defiance actions having hiccups in dust and shy away. It wasn't until a couple years after I noticed they didn't like dust that I even knew you could get undersized bolts from the get-go. I'm not hating on them, the machining, fit, finish, etc... is outstanding. It's just unfortunate so many people set things up for failure (I assume mostly out of the same ignorance that I had) before the info about clearance options became more widely known. Most of the country it's a non-issue anyway, but a few of the western states it is reality. One guy's perspective, anyway.
 
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brianf

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@Ledzep and anyone else..

is there a universal dimension/space between to limit binding (after coating)

bolt body and receiver

bolt head and receiver

thanks
 

Tokay444

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There should be at least as much after coating, as there was before coating.
 

Peterpan

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I’ve had 3 deviants and still have 2. I think the idiot in the video need to clean his gun once in awhile. I’ve had my defiance’s all over the mountains on a four wheeler and in the dust and dirt and I never had to grunt to open my bolt like the yard in the video.
 

redneckbmxer24

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It's just unfortunate so many people set things up for failure (I assume mostly out of the same ignorance that I had) before the info about clearance options became more widely known. Most of the country it's a non-issue anyway, but a few of the western states it is reality. One guy's perspective, anyway.
Even with the increased clearances there's still better actions. Impact, Surgeon, Lone Peak, and quite a few others. I'd even take a Nucleus over a Defiance. IMO what keeps them in the top running is how many shops use them because they're one of the few that will put your brand and model on them and probably the best that do it. If it weren't for that I think they'd become pretty irrelevant with all the new actions with better features and designs that have come to the market in recent years.

It's not just western states, all of the issues that I've experienced and seen with them have been on the east coast. Anywhere that has dirt can be an issue for a tight action.
 

Terry Cross

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@Ledzep and anyone else..

is there a universal dimension/space between to limit binding (after coating)

bolt body and receiver

bolt head and receiver

thanks
It's not that black and white.

Things like length of the bolt handle and whether it is swept have a huge influence on how the user can inadvertently induce binding.
Distance and direction off axis between applied force and the bolt body path are significant in this discussion and resolution.


./
 

ZiaHunter

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Don't place much credence in the video. Several years shot a match in NM in terrible conditions. 25 mph winds, intermittent rain and lots of blowing dust. Was shooting a 6.5 on a custom build with a blueprinted 700 action with a fluted bolt. By the end of the match the rifle was basically inoperable due to crud build up. Can happen to any action given the conditions.
 

Ledzep

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@Ledzep and anyone else..

is there a universal dimension/space between to limit binding (after coating)

bolt body and receiver

bolt head and receiver

thanks
Ckote goes on .001" thick in the best case. Often .003+. Figure you stand to get 4x that thickness between two sides of receiver bore and two sides of a bolt and probably still want .003-.008" minimum clearance. IME the shit doesn't run well cerakoted until after you wear it away down to bare metal again regardless of the action. So once you wear the stuff back down to bare steel where it wears it might get a little sloppy. I was never a fan of altering actions for spray on finishes. It's a world of compromise. Personally, I tape parts/areas off that don't fit when coated.
 
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Edds

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Even with the increased clearances there's still better actions. Impact, Surgeon, Lone Peak, and quite a few others. I'd even take a Nucleus over a Defiance. ..................
What are the features that prevent those actions from binding and cause a Defiance to bind?
 

JakeM

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So I'am assuming that because the ANTI is made for hunting, the clearances would already be a little more forgiving?
 

XLR308

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Just a quick question on the topic of very dusty conditions and custom actions.
I have two of the Kelbly Atlas Tac actions and have ran them dusty and dirty but never to the point of being gummed up and difficult to manipulate the bolt.
Are there any on here that have run one extremely dirty and had issues ?
I know Kelblys states they are built for just that and they are Nitrided but am still curious.
And I wouldn't go for days in very dusty conditions without pulling the bolt and doing a quick field cleaning anyways.
 

nikonNUT

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Thank you thank you thank you

If I had a dollar for every time some gun forum tool wants to look knowledgeable by referring to fits as tolerances I'd be a millionaire.

Everyone take a hint: if you're not a machining, manufacturing, or engineering professional, please look this shit up and educate yourself before showing those who are how little you understand about how to things are put together and work.
Amen! Used to butt heads with our parts manager (should have been flipping burgers somewhere instead) all the time. Me: "Why for you ordered 63mm I.D. tubing?" Him: "Well that's what the piston measured!" Me: "Yes, and it's a steel on steel application so .020" clearance bore of the barrel to the piston body. If you checked with the bearing on it would have measured 2.490/2.492". What I'm saying is it should be 2.500 tubing. Re-order it! I'm not making a custom spec piston you clown!" He would run to my boss and cry, I would defend my stance and mr. manager would get another ass chewing for ordering the wrong shit and wasting time and money because he couldn't wrap his head around "clearances".
 
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gnochi

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Amen! Used to butt heads with our parts manager (should have been flipping burgers somewhere instead) all the time. Me: "Why for you ordered 63mm I.D. tubing?" Him: "Well that's what the piston measured!" Me: "Yes, and it's a steel on steel application so .020" clearance bore of the barrel to the piston body. If you checked with the bearing on it would have measured 2.490/2.492". What I'm saying is it should be 2.500 tubing. Re-order it! I'm not making a custom spec piston you clown!" He would run to my boss and cry, I would defend my stance and mr. manager would get another ass chewing for ordering the wrong shit and wasting time and money because he couldn't wrap his head around "clearances".
CTO: Gnochi, every last millimeter of passenger space is critical.

Me: specifies part to maximize passenger space and push tolerance stacks elsewhere, and ensures there’s clearance to nearby unattached components so there won’t be any rattle or fit issues. Verifies with suppliers A, B, and C that they’re capable of making the part within budget.

Parts manager: saves 50% on the piece cost by buying from supplier D, who doesn’t have ISO 9001 or any comparable certification. I’m told it’s none of my business which supplier they went with, butt out.

CTO, to me: Gnochi, why can’t we build our preproduction vehicle test fleet?

Thankfully I’m not the person who got canned for that clusterfuck. (I’ve since become much less shy about butting my way back in, and bringing in backup from as high up the chain as I need. “We will be 2 months late to production if these specific parts don’t meet spec because the parts manager cheaper out” tends to be one hell of an awakening to C-level execs.)
 
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308pirate

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CTO: Gnochi, every last millimeter of passenger space is critical.

Me: specifies part to maximize passenger space and push tolerance stacks elsewhere, and ensures there’s clearance to nearby unattached components so there won’t be any rattle or fit issues. Verifies with suppliers A, B, and C that they’re capable of making the part within budget.

Parts manager: saves 50% on the piece cost by buying from supplier D, who doesn’t have ISO 9001 or any comparable certification. I’m told it’s none of my business which supplier they went with, butt out.

CTO, to me: Gnochi, why can’t we build our preproduction vehicle test fleet?

Thankfully I’m not the person who got canned for that clusterfuck. (I’ve since become much less shy about butting my way back in, and bringing in backup from as high up the chain as I need. “We will be 2 months late to production if these specific parts don’t meet spec because the parts manager cheaper out” tends to be one hell of an awakening to C-level execs.)
Our previous supply chain manager was that kind of a retard.
 
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